I believe it's meant to prevent enemy faction in faction warfare from docking. So neutral players and pirates wouldn't be affected. I might be wrong though.

I believe it's meant to prevent enemy faction in faction warfare from docking. So neutral players and pirates wouldn't be affected. I might be wrong though.

Standings prevent us Nullsec players from docking in most stations. Don't see us QQing and running to high or low sec.

But in nullsec you can't just leave your alliance and instantly gain access to enemy stations. The problem is that it creates an incentive to leave militias.

That will happen I'm sure. It's point is to make you actually work to take/retake systems. It gives you a reason to do so. Imagine if you did take the system and suddenly they can't dock up. That's what you should be worried about doing not whining because you can't dock in an enemy station. Pirates will be able to dock, but I don't think that gives them any real advantage.

You might work hard to get the systems back. Or you might just quit militia. Or not joint it in the first place.

You might work hard to get the systems back. Or you might just quit militia. Or not joint it in the first place.

-Faction Warfare is in lowsec.
-Piracy is in lowsec.
-Faction Warfare players fight pirates. (Often more than they fight

Therefore, not being able to dock puts FW players at a disadvantage against pirates.
Therefore, there is a new incentive to leave faction warfare to be better at PvP.

But in nullsec you can't just leave your alliance and instantly gain access to enemy stations. The problem is that it creates an incentive to leave militias.

No, that's absolutely ridiculous.

That's like saying I'm gonna leave WI. because I cannot dock in Raiden.'s or IRC's stations, or that I would choose not to move to 0.0 in the first place because of that 'limitation'.

so have the faction police, who CAN be defeated, spawn if prates attack you.

It's not the same, because leaving WI wouldn't let you dock in Raiden's stations, so that incentive isn't actually there.

The real problem is that CCP are trying to increase the number of people who join FW, but implementing mechanics like this does provide an incentive to leave it.

So quitg FW suddenly increases your standings to the point you can dock with thier stations?

you would have t grind like NUTS to get into the ammar FW systems even when your NOT IN FW, becuase while in FW, your standings with ammar tanked.

... but the FW police would kill solo piracy in FW space. And to me, that would be a GOOD THING.

We need to increase the stuff you can do in the sandbox, not decrease it.
.

if you're in a warzone and you need to get out of the fight, do you go into a hostile controlled area and ask if you can take a quick rest? No, they would shoot you on site and never allow you in. How does that not make sense to people?

Being able to dock in stations belonging to a Faction that really hate you is also stupid. The way stations are totally randomly distributed over all Factions is also stupid.

You might have a point if Caldari space was filled with exclusively Caldari stations, but it isn't. There are Minmatar and Gallente stations in those systems. Factions that are actually at war with the owners of the space they occupy. The fanfest proposals would apply to the, too.

Not that it would matter, since it's not about some loose sense of consistency with the lore. It's about game design that encourages people to play the game like the developers want them to. In this case they want people to join FW but are introducing disadvantages for doing so.

It's problematic to simply say that they have been "occupied", because then why would they still have the original faction's agents, sentry guns, standings and LP stores?

I think there is a valid point about docking privs being tied to control of the system.

But I think it should not being restricted to just FW members and shouldn't be all stations in the system. Military stations sure. But there should be relatively neutral or at least civilian stations that would still allow docking (although maybe the effective standing with the could be adjusted).

This all applies pretty equally with NPC Null. Docking in pirate stations seems silly if they hate you, but there should be neutral stations around. Sisters of EVE maybe?

Standings prevent us Nullsec players from docking in most stations. Don't see us QQing and running to high or low sec.

base out of a nearby highsec station

peace y'all

So what advantages does being in faction warfare have over just joining a pirate corp and killing people in low sec then? cheap LP items dont seem to outweigh being able to dock in any station imo. I don't know too much about fw other then that though. IMO , admittedly with my limited knowledge of the situation, this doesnt seem like a step forward for FW.

It's problematic to simply say that they have been "occupied", because then why would they still have the original faction's agents, sentry guns, standings and LP stores?

So what advantages does being in faction warfare have over just joining a pirate corp and killing people in low sec then?

Standings prevent us Nullsec players from docking in most stations. Don't see us QQing and running to high or low sec.

You spend most of your time in enemy space as FW pilots are wont to? If not then the comparison is neither here nor there.

Yes, therefore pirates can dock, but enemy FW cannot. That makes it far more difficult to fight in enemy space. Pirates do not have this disadvantage.

-Faction Warfare is in lowsec.
-Piracy is in lowsec.
-Faction Warfare players fight pirates. (Often more than they fight

Therefore, not being able to dock puts FW players at a disadvantage against pirates.
Therefore, there is a new incentive to leave faction warfare to be better at PvP.

Preventing docking is a good idea. Control of territory gives one use of the resources in the territory, being able to dock and get your stuff is a resource in Eve.

Ask any outpost owner if being the owner of your outpost is worth fighting over.

have you seen minmatar fw pilots? they are fuckign pirates lol.
so is a fair amountof amarr fw pilots.

i think ccp is onto somethign cept...

you cant dock at enemy stations. even in friendly space, and you can dock at friendly stations in hostile space.

if you want to play stupid docking games in low sec etc... learn to adapt.

And what if said outpost owner could simply press a button, stop spending time and resources to defend it, and still have full access to all its facilities. Would they still say it was worth fighting over?

No such button exists, so it is a silly question.

If you stop defending your space in the real game, the one we play and not this fantasy game in your question, you loose your outpost and your access. We're talking about Eve, not Hello Kestrel.

....

It really isn't a difficult concept and people who live in nullsec, which is what faction warfare is training you for, have understood this forever.

If you don't want to be able to lose your stuff, you leave your stuff in a safe place (A WHOLE 10 JUMPS AWAY in highsec).

If you are willing to lose access your stuff (temporarily) but get fights faster you can live closer by but in a "conquerable" station. Don't leave all your stuff in a warzone and expect to be able to have access to it.

It really isn't a difficult concept and people who live in nullsec, which is what faction warfare is training you for, have understood this forever.

I often spend 2 weeks in enemy space in my bomber and only comeback because I either die, run out of ammo or have something nice in my cargo.

This change makes perfect sense and gives FW some risk it has badly needed for years as well as a goal.

If you don't want to be able to lose your stuff, you leave your stuff in a safe place (A WHOLE 10 JUMPS AWAY in highsec).

If you are willing to lose access your stuff (temporarily) but get fights faster you can live closer by but in a "conquerable" station. Don't leave all your stuff in a warzone and expect to be able to have access to it.

It really isn't a difficult concept and people who live in nullsec, which is what faction warfare is training you for, have understood this forever.

Again, the problem is not that it "makes sense" or that it's manageable, the problem is that it creates an incentive to leave militia, which is the exact opposite of what CCP is trying to achieve.

Maybe agents need to change allegiance as well. Or the "old" agent goes into hiding and a new agent shows up in the window to offer you missions.

LP stores could simply be "closed for business" during the occupation by enemy forces.

Sentry guns could be changed at DT based on who has Sov, or just make them "generic". Heck, other then the name, I couldn't tell you whether they are graphically different because they're never more then an in the window.

Initial reaction is that it'll make fights a bit harder to come by as factions stick to their own systems.

Haven't seen the detail in which the devil is concealed though.

Yes, because just look at nullsec, nobody ever goes to systems you can't dock in if someone shoots you.

As I understood the Fanfest presentation, as long as you aren't an active member of the enemy militia, you would be able to dock regardless of standings. If this is not the case then the idea is even more broken than I thought.

Most faction war pilots aren't so risk adverse. I can't imagine going 2 weeks of active play without losing a ship.

We lose allot of cheapish ships and tend to quickly jump back into the fray.

Also you need to have a variety of ships available nearby so you can bring it into the various plexes.

A total ban on docking in any stations in an enemy occupied system is indeed quite dumb. Other less onerous station restrictions are something they can/should consider.

I like restricting enemies from docking in each others station. This was one of the better Ideas in the presentation. In fact i do not think they are taking it far enough. I think that in addition to not docking in an enemy militias station no player should be able to dock in a station that they have a -5 or lower standing with.

Also I think that when you take a system your militias agents replace the enemies agents in the station.

Nothing CCP has proposed outweighs the disadvantages of losing docking rights and losing access to your stuff. Even if it did, why would you join anything but one of the winning militias?

What exactly is stopping them from doing that now?

You could lose everything and still have the ever safe high sec right next door. Its not like you have to travel 40 odd jumps to get back into your warzone like I have to. Even if you do have your stuff in a low sec station, the enemy will need at least 24-48 hours to take the station which is plenty of time to evac.

Or you could just leave militia and be able to keep your stuff wherever you wanted it. As I've said a dozen times in this thread, it's not that we couldn't work around a docking ban, it's that it creates an unwanted incentive to not be in militia.

asking to ccp to allow fw members to dock in enmies stations is like docking the bismark in english ports to get repairs.

so ccp allows you to dock in hostile stations. but you cant repair your ship. use fittings etc...

stattion gamees will change to suit shierld tankers as we all know you dont need to "repair" them.
or... WAIT FOR IT! player trades his ship to an alt who repairs/fits it for him then trades it back....

Only for the cowards who dont want to fight.

They are the same ones who joined the winning side when I was in FW so they could go pve in peace.

This system works perfectly fine in 0.0 which is much more savage when you lose.

What about the people who want to fight but don't want to lose docking rights and so quit militia?

It. Is. Not. The. Same. System. In. Nullsec.


-In nullsec if you quit your alliance you lose access to many stations.
-Under the new proposals you would gain access to many stations if you quit FW.

See the difference?

Cowards and stupid.

You also lose all of the benefits of the milita. However if you stay in the milita your faction stands a much better chance of taking back the station than in 0.0

Being able to dock in stations belonging to a Faction that really hate you is also stupid. The way stations are totally randomly distributed over all Factions is also stupid.

+1 on both counts. Why are Republic Security Services stations located deep in Amarr & Caldari territory? If you're spying on the Amarr, surely you'd use Freedom Exchange or some such?

So let me see if I`ve got this right, as a Caldari militiaman in Gallente controlled space, you think you should have unrestricted access to its infrastructure? Pretty sure that`s quite the opposite of whate you should have.

The simple fact is, you are at war, and you should not have access to facilities `controlled` by the opposing faction, and you should be at a disadvantage. I do however think that putting a mechanic in place to prevent people from hopping between militias and/or going neutral is a given, and it should be significant so as to completely discourage it. Something like, if you leave you can return to your own faction after two weeks, but to join the opposing you have to wait a few months.

No one is going to wait a few months to change from Minmatar to Amarr because the slaves are losing the fight (obviously,) it just wouldnt be worth it.

Edit: As far as the argument about stations belonging to enemy factions in contested territory, those are relics from before the introduction of faction warfare, and indeed it is not unheard of in real war for an occupying force to capture and hold enemy fortifications - yet another argument for restricting access to stations.

Time dilation, PLEXes, jumpclones, reinforcement timers, armor plates and "grid fu" are all ridiculous from an RP perspective, but they are contrivances that we allow for the sake of gameplay. We have to look at any changes to game mechanics in the same way. "How will this change affect the way players behave?"

It doesn't matter if people can hop in and out of militia. It matters that there are things you can gain by not being in militia. That's all it takes for people to leave and others not to join

By the way, there are already proven services to move stuff around lowsec, no matter which corp or alliance or faction you are in, and no matter what station your stuff is located in. There is pretty much no risk, it's just an additional hassle. You just won't be able to stage out of a system that you don't officially own.

I feel like I can argue the opposite with concern to jumpclones, reinforcement timers, armor plates (?) and even to some extent PLEXes (assuming you are referring to complexes) as having some sort of RP backdrop.

How will it affect the way players behave? Well one of two things will happen either a) fw players will actually fight eachother with more vigor than before, and with purpose, or b) there will be a mass exodus because they`ve suddenly realized that the broken system they`ve been playing has been fixed and brought in line with the difficulty level of war in other areas of the game. I honestly expect that if you are in FW for FW than `a` is the more likely thing that will happen here.

An interesting point, while not quite the same, and correct me if I`m wrong and just missed the thread; has anyone noticed that the `Neutral` lowsec residents - the outlaws haven`t been kicking up a **** storm at the prospect of having there ability to resupply themselves made more difficult. I`m of course referring to the proposed cyno jammers. Being that these folks have trained alts to ferry stuff for them in Jump Freighters/Carriers you would think, especially those living in FW systems away from high-sec would be a bit upset at how much harder its going to be to keep there hangars supplied. Yet they haven`t complained?

Quite simply if they don`t join because it`s too hard, they probably wouldn`t have joined to pew pew like FW was intended for in the first place. And whether its an individual or a corp, leaving to go to nullsec, or being a first timer joining the faction that`s winning, the timers I`ve suggested will have no effect on those. It would only effect the people who want to try and game the system, to get around this change, like a deserter or going AWOL (in r/l terms.)

You never wondered how a 1600mm plate can cover all of a 1.6km long Apoc just as easily as it can cover all of a 160m long Guardian? Or how armor plates only have a mass when they're fitted to a ship instead of being carried by one? This is the kind of bizarre stuff we accept without thinking because it makes the game actually work.

There's nothing to stop people from fighting the other militia just as fiercely as pirates as they can as militia members.

It is a little surprising, but we don't know anything about the mechanics of cynojammers yet so it's harder to complain. Plus it's pretty easy to abuse FW mechanics, so they probably think there's a good chance that they can get an alt in to control the jammer. Hell, maybe they'll just push them into RF and give themselves a brief window to restock by carrier.

You don't need to get around the system when you can simply decline to be part of it.

You'll have to explain to me why people who want to fight more are cowards, and why people who found a more efficient way to fight are stupid. Because frankly it sounds like bullshit.

"The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen."

This is worth a read to see what happens in these situations.

I think youve missed the point here; wasnt everyone in FW crying because the system being broke there was no real incentive to fight eachother (other than of course for gfs?) This provides that incentive.

Pretty sure that they mentioned quite clearly how they would work - that it would jam the system for anyone not in that particular FW faction (ie. neuts couldnt cyno, and enemy factions couldnt cyno.) Also seeing as pirates cant flip systems the thought of them effecting some change there is irrelevant, short of infiltration, which is the sort of stuff CCP likes to see.

I think I mentioned this already, but its a pretty fair assumption that if the reason people decline to be a part of FW is because they have to fight eachother to maintain access to stations, those people werent going to join FW to fight other factions anyway. They would be the so-called plague that FW folks have been complaining about, the alts farming LP in missions. This may have the spin-off effect of getting rid of these players like you all wanted in the first place.

Also this was posted in the other FW thread http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve-online/interviews/inferno-part-one

Quite worth the watch as the information on FW, and the reasoning behind why CCP are doing this are both there.

Cowards and stupid.




You also lose all of the benefits of the milita. However if you stay in the milita your faction stands a much better chance of taking back the station than in 0.0

+1 on both counts. Why are Republic Security Services stations located deep in Amarr & Caldari territory? If you're spying on the Amarr, surely you'd use Freedom Exchange or some such?

People who want to pvp quit a side with a target rich enviroment to join the "winning side" which has less targets to get more kills? Yea, that makes sense.

So a person's ability to analyze a situation is based on their experience of shooting people? Mighty big epeen you're fondling there.

In reality it's better to think about militia in economic terms. Militia people join up because they gain something from militia. This can be either kills, mission LP, or a sense of RP achievement. In real wars the vast majority of soldiers are compelled to fight, either because they are conscripted or because they are part of a hierarchy that will imprison or execute them if they don't. Since people can quit militia, and indeed quit EVE without being put in front of a firing squad, the incentives for playing must be broadly positive. When it's all about rewards rather than threats it's basically economics

White noise would have a target rich environment are they getting a big influx of pvpers?

But it also provides an incentive to leave FW

Also seeing as pirates cant flip systems the thought of them effecting some change there is irrelevant, short of infiltration, which is the sort of stuff CCP likes to see.

None of this plugs the "pirate gap". The advantage of leaving is still there

In reality it's better to think about militia in economic terms. Militia people join up because they gain something from militia.

But here its not so much that people will switch sides. (Although some will. some already switch sides when there are no consequences this will only increase if there are bigger consequences) The main problem i see is when people first join faction war they will tend to join the winning side with all of the benefits. So the winning side will continue to get more new recruits and he losing side will continue to starve for them.

This is different than player run situations where alliances can just die and new ones take their place. Who wants to join White Noise now? Well if there are sov null sec style consequences that will be the same situation for a losing faction.

Im talking about experience not epeen. Having spent the last 6 years fighting wars all across EVE I think I can safely say I have experience in the matter.

Also, the british army is made up entirely by volunteers so lets do away with that lie right now.

This is a horrible back and forth, and very weak argument. There will always be reasons someone will not participate in something. Example: Being -10 and essentially locked out of most areas of high-sec, one could argue this is a terrible mechanic because it incentivizes people to not engage in non-consensual PVP. However quite the opposite takes place, people want to take part in this type of PVP, and in fact many are quite proud of there -10 standing.

So you'll have to come up with something better than an "I know you are but what am I" argument.

Thanks for your agreement here - this is exactly the sort of thing CCP wants.

None of this plugs the "pirate gap". The advantage of leaving is still there

The "pirate gap" is a non-sensical response because you are talking about two separate "features." Faction Warfare has a purpose that is finally being outlined quite clearly. Piracy is something else entirely different. If someone doesn't want to join FW, then why the frack do you care? Seems to me you should be more worried about correcting this risk/challenge-averse attitude you seem to think all FW pilots have. Pretty pathetic for a group that "wants" to PVP. Or perhaps that's the problem, you're upset that you'll be forced to PVP now? Maybe you're the anomaly, the stealth bomber pilot who farms LP all day and is now going to be less able to do so.

That video showed CCP has thought about the long term consequences, and specifically they sort of hope one side beats the **** out of another and takes all the opposing systems "We kind of hope this goes horribly wrong." The argument that people are going to quickly switch sides is silly with the addition of the Datacores being only achievable via FW LP. Suddenly the price of the losing factions datacores go through the roof. But wait, is that another incentive to take part? Gosh who'd have thought.

Just cuz you illustrate the point of my last paragraph so well.

The key difference is that there's no superior alternative to going -10 for those whose main aim is indiscriminate warfare. Under the FW proposals there is a better alternative to being in militia for those people: non-faction piracy. Same targets, no docking restrictions.

Not really. They want people to join and actively participate in FW, not for pirate corps to have a couple of FW alts that don't fly with the rest of militia, and are only there to circumvent a game mechanic. It's even worse than all the mission runner.

If all it takes is you leaving FW for a day to move your stuff out of a conquered station, then what's the big deal? A kind of "surrender". You can also contract your loot to a third party hauler or perhaps get an alt to move the stuff out. Not a big deal, tbh.

The only real consequence would be losing access to a FW mission agent.

Non-faction piracy and FW are not separate at all. They take place in the same systems and will be competing alternatives for a corp to decide between.

False - A player could go to 0.0, or Wormhole space and commit the same acts of violence at no loss to sec status. Whether or not this is superior is debatable, some will say yes, others will say no - it's a matter of opinion.

The idea of pirates joining FW to circumvent a cyno jammer, was an example. The sorts of things CCP want to see are players infiltrating each-others factions or behind the back dealings with the enemy faction to get access to ships and such in hangars. Taken from the other FW thread.

Again, wrong. Non-faction piracy and faction warfare are seperate, and different from eachother. The fact that they take place in the same systems are irrelevant, that is like saying mining and mission running are the same thing because they happen in the same systems. If you want to go the route of competing alternatives, you have 0.0 both NPC and Sov, you have high-sec wars (which seem like they are getting fixed,) you have wormhole PVP. All of these are "competing" alternative forms of PVP, and yet the pirates are still pirates, the null pvpers still do there thing, the wormholers do theres, and the FW players also continue to do there thing, even though it's been horribly broken for a long time. Says alot about the motivations for each group, which appears to be that they simply like playing that role in the universe.

The rewards don't sound like they are going to be over the top ridiculous, but as you said it's a bit foggy as to how great these rewards are, but it can't be much worse than the way it is now with alts farming LP.

-Faction Warfare players fight pirates. (Often more than they fight )

But in nullsec you can't just leave your alliance and instantly gain access to enemy stations. The problem is that it creates an incentive to leave militias.

THIS, is actually the problem. There's no incentive for FW to fight each other and more often just end up fighting pirates. Making faction warfare have some rewards will hopefully give more incentive for FW to fight each other more than now.

Even though it's not the popular opinion, I tentatively support this change. Certainly the relevant mechanics would need to be looked at first (currently system flipping happens too fast in FW).

And just in case you think I feel this way because it doesn't inconvenience me:

Yes, I live in a hostile system. Yes, there is only one station there. Yes, it belongs to the opposing militia. Yes, I stand to lose access to all my **** if it gets flipped under the proposed change. And yes, I asked for FW to have consequence.

**** the complacent, escalate the war.

OP is kinda right in a way.

If you want to incentivize something, the carrot works better than the stick.

i.e. the rewards for taking a system should be the motivator, not the penalties for not.

I have no doubt you will see people dropping corp to do this and working around the mechanics endlessly, I honestly see it.

It's no different than all the people dropping corps to evade wardecs, etc.

You might have a point if Caldari space was filled with exclusively Caldari stations, but it isn't. There are Minmatar and Gallente stations in those systems. Factions that are actually at war with the owners of the space they occupy. The fanfest proposals would apply to the, too.

Not that it would matter, since it's not about some loose sense of consistency with the lore. It's about game design that encourages people to play the game like the developers want them to. In this case they want people to join FW but are introducing disadvantages for doing so.

It's problematic to simply say that they have been "occupied", because then why would they still have the original faction's agents, sentry guns, standings and LP stores?

Load of b..locks on multiple pages