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Faction Warfare is going downhill fast.

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Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Le Skunk Well as many people pointed out - consequence free PVP is dull as dishwater. People who were being advised to "buy 20 t1 insured frigates and go out and fight!" soon realised It didnt matter one jot if they went AFK in the middle of a fleet fight, as they would just hop back into another ships at no cost Killing the enemy, meant similiarly little, as they would only drop crap loot, which would be stolen by your gang mates anyway. It was difficult to really work up a "hate" against the enemy - despite strained humerous attempts to call each other funny names - as all you stood to gain was a name over a system which meant nothing Also - CCP gave out a lot of free game time on accounts (as i said at the time) to falsely bolster the impact of FW. As this time ran out - people didnt bother to resub. This combined with the dreaded LAG (which was obviously going to be a fctor in Faction Warfare and which was strangely missing for the promotional material CCP sent out to sucker people into it) SKUNK If you don't like consequence free PvP ofc you will be bored by FW. However: 1. FW was supposed to be an easy introduction i.e. it is supposed to be largely consequence free, and if there is only a small demographic looking for that, then FW is doomed anyway. 2. Given the number of people I hear whining about going broke, it obviously isn't consequence free for some. 3. You could always fly expensive ships to increase the risk. Many people do. Killing the enemy is what the mechanic is there to allow you to do. Just easy kills. Greater meaning can be found elsewhere. Hating the enemy, again, it's about easy PvP, not fighting for a real purpose. Also, if you are Gal militia, the squids give you plenty of reasons to hate them. - DesuSigs
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:25:00 - [32] Maybe CCP could extend FW to allow claiming of 0.0 systems for the various Empires _______ People like that don't have friends just temporary common interests.
Cruel Crow	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:26:00 - [33] I'm going to say this once more I cant help that people can understand this FW Should have been started when EVE Went live
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Cruel Crow I'm going to say this once more I cant help that people can understand this FW Should have been started when EVE Went live Fair enough, but it wasn't. It was started a couple of months ago. What we need now is a mechanism to KEEP PEOPLE IN FW!
Berand The Scope	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:30:00 - [35] People leaving FW was probably inevitable around this time. At first it was new and shiny, so everyone wanted to try it. Now that everyone has tried it, a portion are going to filter back to 0.0, or piracy, or high sec corps, or what have you. In other words, the numbers were artificially high to begin with simply due to the novelty. A downswing as the novelty wore off was unavoidable.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Crumplecorn Because getting objectives handed to you is the same thing as empire building, amirite? Because fighting in a fleet with an opposing fleet is the same wether your alliance leader or a non-descript NPC agent gives you the objectives. Or whether you have no objectives at all. Originally by: Akita T Quote: Fighting for an NPC corp/alliance/whatever is always going to be meaningless. Playing the game is meaningless, if you want to get existential. Blah. Null point. You know what I meant. Sandbox Vs. Themepark. Originally by: Akita T Quote: 1&2. Reward glorified mission whoring. Great idea for a PvP mechanic. When all the pure PvPers who keep bothering the plex fleets leave, FW can finally take its place as another variety of low sec missioning eh? Isn't EVERYTHING in EVE about getting and spending ISK ? At least this way you get a chance to earn those ISK WHILE doing something you'd now usually just spend ISK to engage in. Then why not make ISK rewards for all PvP in the game? Then no-one would ever have to grind! All we'd need to do then it all gather in FD and we'd basically be on the test server. Originally by: Akita T Quote: Tie up yet more industry/research resources in completely unrelated mechanics? Great. You can't do that now at all, it's merely yet another way FW participants can gain ISK with. Besides, didn't you just grumble something about empire building a few sentences ago ? But, if implemented, you will be able to do it, but those who would want to take advantage of such things as more than just a reward for plexing would be forced to take part in the unrelated FW mechanic to get them. Just like how highsec POSes are tied into mission whoring for standing (for all those mission ***s who run POSes in their free time I suppose?). Originally by:** Akita T Quote: These are all basically mission objectives/rewards. There would still be no meaning to FW. Hmm. Are we actually working on the same definition of the word "MEANING" here anyway ? Meaning. Purpose. A goal. Something you desire and set forth to acheive. PvP is the instrument you use to do that, not the goal. Being told 'go kill squids FOR THE FEDERATION!!!!eleven' by an NPC is no different than 'here, have a free wardec'. Adding rewards won't change it. PvP is the instrument for objectives which are found out in 0.0. In lowsec, you do it for the lulz. - DesuSigs
Matthias Reid	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:32:00 - [37] Faction Warfare is fine, and exactly as advertised. No strings PVP. If u come home and got 30 mins to waste before dinner u can hop on and try and kill some stuff. It doesnt take the dedication and foresight of a 0.0 operation. But its been said verbattim, that if you want your PVP to mean something and have a point and a tangible reward, Join a Player corp in a 0.0 alliance. Giving FW pilots free shit and rewards is a slap in the face to every player empire that is and has ever been. The guys out in 0.0, whom fight every day to protect their space dont get any special reward from CCP. Why would it be in anyway reasonable to give these weekend warrior types. Your reward is the the PVP.
Cruel Crow	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Berand People leaving FW was probably inevitable around this time. At first it was new and shiny, so everyone wanted to try it. Now that everyone has tried it, a portion are going to filter back to 0.0, or piracy, or high sec corps, or what have you. In other words, the numbers were artificially high to begin with simply due to the novelty. A downswing as the novelty wore off was unavoidable. You said it NOVELTY EVE Is a Sandbox and always will be. The only thing CCP could do is improve in the system and graphics. Once they break EVE it will die like so many other MMO This is possible FW still should been started in the beginning!
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:48:00 - [39] FW really should be the progression path from mission running. Mission running should be the "training" for combat pilots. Those who want to continue on from it should join the militia. It's the natural progression. FW should have earning potential similar to L4-L5 missions paid in both isk and "war booty", if your faction is "winning" (i.e. gaining more systems than they are losing). From a RP point of view, this makes perfect sense. Capsuleers are being hired by the factions as "Privateers". They should be paying them well when they get results. The idea of FW should be to move combat pilots from mostly NPC combat when they are noobish (missions) to mostly PvP combat when they are more experienced (FW). They should then have the option to jump to alliance warfare, with a good deal of PvP experience under their belts, or stick with FW if they don't play enough to be a valuable member of an alliance. It's a progression path that makes sense and would serve the long term interests of the game well. I hope CCP considers it.
Pan Dora Caldari Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:48:00 - [40] CCP presented FW as an 'introdutory' PVP. Something you join when you want to try your hand in pvp but dont want(/its not prepared to del with) all the responsabilities of a 0.0 sovereignity, simple piracy or mercenary work (defense of territory, security status, wardec costs, ...). In this sense CCP planed FW to be transitory, something you do for some time and then move along. This said lots of people joined FW, now lots of people are leaving FW. ITS WORKING AS INTENDED. ITS NOT BROKEN, DONT NEED A FIX. The issue will become real when people stop to leave FW. My posts DOES reflect the view of my corp and ally... ..or a mistake they did when let me post.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine FW really should be the progression path from mission running. 10/10 I would rage if it wasn't so obvious. - DesuSigs
Pesky LaRue Minmatar L.O.S.T. Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:55:00 - [42] Originally by: Cruel Crow I'm going to say this once more I cant help that people can understand this FW Should have been started when EVE Went live right. but it wasn't. got anything constructive to bring to this? This message came from the Minmatar Messiah, accept no imitations Pesky LaRue, Minmatar Messiah Bringing Salvation To Your System Soon! ++ PRAY FOR PESKY ++
Pesky LaRue Minmatar L.O.S.T. Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:57:00 - [43] Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 25/08/2008 17:57:45 i really don't understand why people are so rabidly anti- the idea of getting semi-decent rewards for FW. I rarely see anyone asking to get rich, but what's so terrible about there actually being some kind of payout for taking part? even if it's something like 1k LP for each kill or something, there seem to be a lot of people (myself included) who would like to get some kind of reward for taking part. again, why's that so awful? This message came from the Minmatar Messiah, accept no imitations Pesky LaRue, Minmatar Messiah Bringing Salvation To Your System Soon! ++ PRAY FOR PESKY ++
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:57:00 - [44] CCP really should have seen the war deccing thing coming. War decing a corp in the militia should have the same consequences as deccing a corp that is in a player alliance. It's the same thing. Deccing a corp in the militia should also make you subject to NPC Navy attack in that faction's high-sec space. You have, in effect, declared your corp/alliance to be an enemy of that faction by deccing their militia.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Pesky LaRue Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 25/08/2008 17:57:45 i really don't understand why people are so rabidly anti- the idea of getting semi-decent rewards for FW. I rarely see anyone asking to get rich, but what's so terrible about there actually being some kind of payout for taking part? even if it's something like 1k LP for each kill or something, there seem to be a lot of people (myself included) who would like to get some kind of reward for taking part. again, why's that so awful? Risk-free PvP. - DesuSigs
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:11:00 - [46] Originally by: Berand People leaving FW was probably inevitable around this time. At first it was new and shiny, so everyone wanted to try it. Now that everyone has tried it, a portion are going to filter back to 0.0, or piracy, or high sec corps, or what have you. In other words, the numbers were artificially high to begin with simply due to the novelty. A downswing as the novelty wore off was unavoidable. This IMO. On a side note, Certain aspects of FW (such as capping Plexs) don't have any meaningful reward and generally are incredibly boring to do. I hope CCP expands on it soon. - Infectious -
Reaver One Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:13:00 - [47] The rewards of FW should be in-line with all EvE reward systems (except mission running). What do 0.0 corps get by defending their territories? Access to resources, that's what. What should the rewards of FW be? Access to resources, not ISK on a platter. You could simply put some high-quality 'roids in FW complexes that require ownership to mine, or simply make it possible to bump a system up in security level by securing the plexes (thus opening up the system to exploitation). Make it so that pirate activity can lower an adjacent system's sec level as well, and designate a number of high-sec systems from all empires that can be affected in this way. This makes it so that: FW players are playing to open up more systems for their empire. They are rewarded by the increase in mission agents and (relatively) safe mining opportunities. Pirates are fighting to keep low-sec free for them to exploit (via piracy), and to increase the amount of low-sec space.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:15:00 - [48] Originally by: Crumplecorn Risk-free PvP. If FW was a "pay for results" system it wouldn't be risk free. You could PvP your ass off and lose a bunch of ships and get no pay if your faction came out on the short end that week. It certainly wouldn't be higher risk than sitting on a .4 gate camp with a noobship parked on the other side to make sure nothing was coming that can kill you. People are going to position themselves for risk-free PvP no matter what. That isn't really an argument for making the militias a paid profession.
Haywoode Jablome State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:23:00 - [49] Edited by: Haywoode Jablome on 25/08/2008 18:23:18 Well, seeing this, they might just buff-beef-up FW, so I'm asking Santa CCP for: 1. Big fat juicy loot tables in FW, and with that I mean really BIG FAT JUICY WATERMELON like loot, as in > officer and deadspace thingies 2. Ludicrous amounts of ISK for conquering stuff 3. An insane Standing increase for the faction you do your things with 4. A new bread of ships only to be flown by the FW people. 5. Uber DD like weapons as in the trailer. 6... A truck load of hookers for ambulation as an reward for your honorable duties. (Garmon doesn't need them, because he is faithfull to his wive, so you can give me them to me)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine People are going to position themselves for risk-free PvP no matter what. That isn't really an argument against making the militias a paid profession. Yes, it is. People avoiding risk is one thing. Intentionally removing it is another. But making the rewards so dependant on performance that you can come out at a loss if your militia does badly is a good idea. It would cause epic turmoil in the militias when the minmaxers and part-timers cross each other. - DesuSigs
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:26:00 - [51] Originally by: Pan Dora CCP presented FW as an 'introdutory' PVP. Something you join when you want to try your hand in pvp but dont want(/its not prepared to del with) all the responsabilities of a 0.0 sovereignity, simple piracy or mercenary work (defense of territory, security status, wardec costs, ...). In this sense CCP planed FW to be transitory, something you do for some time and then move along. This said lots of people joined FW, now lots of people are leaving FW. ITS WORKING AS INTENDED. ITS NOT BROKEN, DONT NEED A FIX. The issue will become real when people stop to leave FW. My point was that FW is losing players and IF the graph continues at its present rate of decline, FW will be dead before long. You say the issue will become real if people STOP leaving FW? So by your logic, FW will be a success when no-one plays it anymore? WORKING AS INTENDED!!! - yeah, alright, but the numbers are declining.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Reaver One Pirates are fighting to keep low-sec free for them to exploit (via piracy), and to increase the amount of low-sec space. This isn't the purpose of FW. It doesn't pit militias against pirates. It pits them against each other. Putting tasty resources in the plexes that require ownership to exloit is also a decent idea, however, how do you divvy them up? If you have some ABC ore in there, is it just a free-for-all until it's all gone? That would pretty much suck, tbh.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:42:00 - [53] i haven't got into fw yet with my combat guy but my understanding was FW is sopost to be a noob entry too learn combat, on a meduim scope. its not too be a grand scale combat zone like 00 systems are but a starter at learning about combat for the weaker players who are new at it.. for now thats what it is, later it can be more.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:43:00 - [54] Originally by: Crumplecorn But making the rewards so dependant on performance that you can come out at a loss if your militia does badly is a good idea. It would cause epic turmoil in the militias when the minmaxers and part-timers cross each other. Yeah, it wouldn't make any sense as a game mechanic or with the back-story to make it just pay-for-participation. It would have to be pay-for-results, or, among other things, the wise-guys would exploit the hell out of it. There should be some combination of pay for enemy kills (individual) and pay for the achievement of larger, militia level objectives. Set the bar so that you'd need a pretty healthy k/d ratio to make a living at the individual level, and the big payoff (comparable to spending the same amount of game time grinding L4s) come from the achievement of militia level objectives (systems capped). This would hardly be "risk free". It's just a framework for making a living through PvP. If you're good at it, and if your militia is well organized and achieving something, you can make a lot. If you suck, and your militia sucks, you'll go backwards.
Reaver One Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.08.25 19:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine This isn't the purpose of FW. It doesn't pit militias against pirates. It pits them against each other. Wouldn't have to be direct competition...could be that a pirate organization simply checks a box to indicate that that's what they are, and then all kills they make create "destabilization" in the region...thus weakening the security level of local systems. To balance it out, make it so that when a pirate attacks someone in low-sec, they get aggro from the victim and from any militia members within a given radius (so that militias can "patrol" a sector to prevent pirate attacks). Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Putting tasty resources in the plexes that require ownership to exloit is also a decent idea, however, how do you divvy them up? If you have some ABC ore in there, is it just a free-for-all until it's all gone? That would pretty much suck, tbh. It would, but I really hate to see any game mechanics that divvy up loot or resources for players...too soft. You want the resources, bring the tools to get 'em out.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.25 19:13:00 - [56] Originally by: oilio Edited by: oilio on 25/08/2008 16:02:30 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: oilio Every time I see this I want to hit someone. THEY HANDED YOU CONSEQUENCE FREE BULLSHIT FREE PVP ON A PLATTER HOT AND COLD RUNNING TARGETS WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? I LIKE FW!!!! What is bothering me is that the graphs show far more players leaving than joining. IF THAT CONTINUES, FW IS DEAD!!! I DON'T WANT FW TO DIE!!! So CCP need to make it more attractive - so that we keep players in FW. Well, alternatively, FW players need to make it more attractive then flying around in 30-40 man blobs Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.08.25 19:18:00 - [57] Originally by: Reaver One To balance it out, make it so that when a pirate attacks someone in low-sec, they get aggro from the victim and from any militia members within a given radius (so that militias can "patrol" a sector to prevent pirate attacks). Not only that, but make it so sentries fire on them if they come close and everyone can attack them for the next 15 minutes without security status hits. Oh, wait.... That already exists. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Reaver One Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.08.25 19:39:00 - [58] Originally by: Cpt Branko Not only that, but make it so sentries fire on them if they come close and everyone can attack them for the next 15 minutes without security status hits. Oh, wait.... That already exists. I'm talking about automatic two-way red flashy lift-your-skirts aggro, not just a timer.
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2008.08.25 19:42:00 - [59] A change I would like to see is real map change - if the Gallnete capture a system it shows on the map not as an "occupation" but as a Gallente Federation system. Also if an enemy low sec system that borders high sec is captured all high sec systems surrounding the low sec system go down a sec status. 0.5 becomes a 0.4 and then you can capture the new 0.4 system and make some previously seemingly secure system lose sec status. Conquering low sec stations and cutting off access agents and faciltiies among the faction folk (and not just militia folk either). But I can dream...
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 19:44:00 - [60] Originally by: Cpt Branko Seriously, now, FW gave you so much (targets, no sec losses, etc) and you're still whining? FW could use more financial rewards, of course - but that's it. If you look at my OP, I am not "whining" that FW doesn't give me enough. I LOVE FW! But if the current downward trend in player numbers continues, there won't be much FW to love. My ONLY concern is how to keep the numbers up. I don't care how CCP do it - I just don't want FW to fizzle out. Stop trying to turn what I am saying into what YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO BE SAYING.

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