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Faction Warfare is going downhill fast.

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oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 15:58:00 - [1] http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/ and I mean literally "downhill" - look at the graphs for number of players. The whole wardec mess has meant that (at least for Caldari) many of the best corps and FCs have gone. The lack of rewards is starting to become apparent. If the lines on the graph continue their trend, FW doesn't have long. CCP need to sort this out fairly quickly, or "Empyrean Age" is gonna mean nothing at all.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:00:00 - [2] Originally by: oilio The lack of rewards is starting to become apparent. Every time I see this I want to hit someone. THEY HANDED YOU CONSEQUENCE FREE BULLSHIT FREE PVP ON A PLATTER HOT AND COLD RUNNING TARGETS WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? - DesuSigs
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:02:00 - [3] Edited by: oilio on 25/08/2008 16:02:30 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: oilio The lack of rewards is starting to become apparent. Every time I see this I want to hit someone. THEY HANDED YOU CONSEQUENCE FREE BULLSHIT FREE PVP ON A PLATTER HOT AND COLD RUNNING TARGETS WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? I LIKE FW!!!! What is bothering me is that the graphs show far more players leaving than joining. IF THAT CONTINUES, FW IS DEAD!!! I DON'T WANT FW TO DIE!!! So CCP need to make it more attractive - so that we keep players in FW.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:05:00 - [4] It doesnt have lasting value since you do the same thing every time. Join a blob. Get killed or kill something. Usually both. But its a start. CCP can develop it and make it more interesting. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:06:00 - [5] On a side note: EVE IS DEAD!!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:06:00 - [6] Originally by: oilio I LIKE FW!!!! What is bothering me is that the graphs show far more players leaving than joining. IF THAT CONTINUES, FW IS DEAD!!! I DON'T WANT FW TO DIE!!! So CCP need to make it more attractive - so that we keep players in FW. That wasn't directed at you personally. I see it a lot in militia chat. Drives me nuts. People leaving is a problem, and I really don't want FW to die, it's the only PvPing I do. But CCP is never going to reward you for participating. FW is basically consensual PvP, paying you to participate crosses the line into WoW in space. Changing other mechanics, like the wardecs, might be a good idea. They may also choose to reward plexing. - DesuSigs
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:08:00 - [7] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: oilio The lack of rewards is starting to become apparent. Every time I see this I want to hit someone. THEY HANDED YOU CONSEQUENCE FREE BULLSHIT FREE PVP ON A PLATTER HOT AND COLD RUNNING TARGETS WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? I don't know, how about a reason (apart from "fight for the sake of the fight") for both you and said targets to fight ? Yeah, there's plenty of PvP to be had in FW. But because it's meaningless, the "uuuh, shiny" effect is waning fast. Unless they introduce some MOTIVATION into it (i.e. tangible benefits for doing well and hindering the enemy from doing well), it won't be long before most people decide that FW is not for them afterall. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:12:00 - [8] Understood Crumplecorn. I don't quite know what CCP need to do to make FW more attractive, but I think it's a great asset to Eve. Problem is, it only works if you have lots of people involved. If numbers dwindle too much then all those great battles are going to stop, and that would be a DAMN SHAME in my opinion. Anyway, the purpose of the topic was to appeal to CCP to look at FW and try to make it more attractive to players... somehow. The wardec thing would definitely be a start, I think.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:13:00 - [9] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/08/2008 16:14:47 Originally by: oilio stuff Agreed. I would hate to see FW die. And you are right, if the numbers drop below a critical mass, it will. But I don't see what can be done other than turning it into completely lossless (or maybe even profitable) PvP. Originally by: Akita T I don't know, how about a reason (apart from "fight for the sake of the fight") for both you and said targets to fight ? Yeah, there's plenty of PvP to be had in FW. But because it's meaningless, the "uuuh, shiny" effect is waning fast. Unless they introduce some MOTIVATION into it (i.e. tangible benefits for doing well and hindering the enemy from doing well), it won't be long before most people decide that FW is not for them afterall. If people want 'meaning' in their PvP, that's what 0.0 is for. The whole point of FW is that it is an obligation-free consequence-free meaningless free for all. When you want a reason to fight, other than fighting for the sake of it, go join an alliance. Anyway, if the idea of fighting for a player-built and player-run alliance doesn't draw people, what NPC-based objectives possibly could? - DesuSigs
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:14:00 - [10] Linkage Stuff like this... from the "live devblog" that never happened. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate On a side note: EVE IS DEAD!! No, that wasn't my suggestion at all. I put the link to the stats graph which clearly shows continually declining player numbers. This isn't opinion - this is fact - shown by the graphs.
Kulmid The Elear FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:15:00 - [12] CCP should just make it so that if you war dec a corp in the Caldari militia you are then a possible target to the entire Caldari militia but cannot fire upon anyone but the corp you dec'd unless fired upon first. You would think CCP would have added things like, "Amarr", "CCP", "Microwarpdrive", etc. to their forum dictionary.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:16:00 - [13] I don't see the problem here, we wanted no hassle easy to get into pvp. We got tedious blob warfare in empire space. The way I see it, the more people leave, the more attactive it is as the smaller and easier the gangs are to manage without omgwtfbbq kills and laghelldeath.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Kulmid CCP should just make it so that if you war dec a corp in the Caldari militia you are then a possible target to the entire Caldari militia but cannot fire upon anyone but the corp you dec'd unless fired upon first. The problem with wardec solutions like this is that you could end up with corps hiding from wardecs in the militia, since being the militia has very little effect on highsec operations. - DesuSigs
Grarr Dexx Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:18:00 - [15] You know, PVP just isn't rewarding at all. It's a way to blow off steam, not a way to gain 'rewards'.
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:20:00 - [16] I am not sure I buy the "FW is dying because the rewards are non existent" argument. What I am seeing are the people leaving are those who just wanted to try it and those who were new to PvP and didn't realize how difficult pvp was going to be on their wallets. The PvErs went back to high sec. This is evident because when you get into a pvp encounter in FW now, it is typically a much more difficult fight than it was a month ago. In other words, the players staying always knew what they are doing and probably won't be leaving anytime soon. Then again, I agree that FW needs to be fleshed out more if it is going to be successful in the long run. All I am saying is the recent loss of players may be from the noobs leaving because of the lack of isk in their wallets after a month of getting blown up over and over.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:20:00 - [17] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/08/2008 16:21:55 Originally by: 5pinDizzy I don't see the problem here, we wanted no hassle easy to get into pvp. We got tedious blob warfare in empire space. The way I see it, the more people leave, the more attactive it is as the smaller and easier the gangs are to manage without omgwtfbbq kills and laghelldeath. Except on weekends the blobs are smallish, lagless and fairly fast moving. On a related note, it is possible that there is a core of people in FW who (like me) have no intention of dropping it, so the numbers will drop to a base figure as the people attracted by the novelty leave, but it will never completely die. Originally by: Kelli Flay All I am saying is the recent loss of players may be from the noobs leaving because of the lack of isk in their wallets after a month of getting blown up over and over. Another interesting possibility. It's amazing that people go broke in FW. It's not like you need big or well fitted ships. - DesuSigs
Joe Starbreaker AnTi.	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:21:00 - [18] A lot of people just signed up to check it out. They checked it out, and obviously not everybody found it was for them. It's no surprise that FW will settle on a normal level of participation somewhat lower than in the first few weeks. Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto All piracy is built upon honoring one's word.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. The Requiem	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:21:00 - [19] What, the respect isn't enough reward? :D warp drive active \| nature vraie
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:22:00 - [20] There is a reward all right, its called loot, you just don't see alot of it when blobbing... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Crumplecorn The whole point of FW is that it is an obligation-free consequence-free meaningless free for all. [...] Anyway, if the idea of fighting for a player-built and player-run alliance doesn't draw people, what NPC-based objectives possibly could? And here I was, thinking that the whole idea of FW was that people that would never bother GETTING RECRUITED into 0.0 alliances and moving to live there would be able to try their hand at PvP objectives alongside many other players who think the same... nowhere did the terms "meaningless" or "anything-free" come into mind. Hmm, what NPC objectives possibly could ? Well, how about winning and losing LP for the militia corp as your FLEET wins/loses FW plexes, not just missions so far away nobody actually bothers doing ? Or, heck, the ability to request and turn in FW missions remotely, from within enemy territory, without even needing to dock ? What about militia-corp-only LP shop items that are actually desirable, as opposed to the same run-of-the-mill items you get in all regular LP stores ? How about FW-only obtainable privileges, like, say, highsec moon miners or highsec moonmining charters ? How about SERIOUS multipliers for all possible rewards depending on your empire's occupancy status ? The more systems your empire holds, the higher the offensive multipliers... the lower number of systems you hold, the higher the defensive multipliers... You know, a REASON to actually FIGHT the enemy except the fact "he's the enemy". _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:31:00 - [22] TBH I would expect this kind of falloff regardless of whether they were passing out rewards or not. Normal "Ooo Shiney" expansion rush followed by the inevitable decline in numbers as people get bored with it and go back to other stuff. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Karii Ildarian Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:35:00 - [23] CCP should just make all racial members, of warring factions and members of Corps/Alliances in Empire space, red and flashy to each other. Give players the option to "turn-coat", so as to support the faction they choose. This should apply to anyone not in a 0.0 alliance, as 0.0 players are not part of empire. 0.0 Alliances should have hugh tarrifs applied when trading with the Empire factions, in order to support the particular Empire faction's war machine. That would be true and consequential, (an EVE favorite), FW.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:38:00 - [24] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 25/08/2008 16:39:28 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Crumplecorn The whole point of FW is that it is an obligation-free consequence-free meaningless free for all. [...] Anyway, if the idea of fighting for a player-built and player-run alliance doesn't draw people, what NPC-based objectives possibly could? And here I was, thinking that the whole idea of FW was that people that would never bother GETTING RECRUITED into 0.0 alliances and moving to live there would be able to try their hand at PvP objectives alongside many other players who think the same... nowhere did the terms "meaningless" or "anything-free" come into mind. Because getting objectives handed to you is the same thing as empire building, amirite? Fighting for an NPC corp/alliance/whatever is always going to be meaningless. Originally by: Akita T Hmm, what NPC objectives possibly could ? 1. Well, how about winning and losing LP for the militia corp as your FLEET wins/loses FW plexes, not just missions so far away nobody actually bothers doing ? Or, heck, the ability to request and turn in FW missions remotely, from within enemy territory, without even needing to dock ? 2. What about militia-corp-only LP shop items that are actually desirable, as opposed to the same run-of-the-mill items you get in all regular LP stores ? 3. How about FW-only obtainable privileges, like, say, highsec moon miners or highsec moonmining charters ? How about SERIOUS multipliers for all possible rewards depending on your empire's occupancy status ? The more systems your empire holds, the higher the offensive multipliers... the lower number of systems you hold, the higher the defensive multipliers... You know, a REASON to actually FIGHT the enemy except the fact "he's the enemy". 1&2. Reward glorified mission whoring. Great idea for a PvP mechanic. When all the pure PvPers who keep bothering the plex fleets leave, FW can finally take its place as another variety of low sec missioning eh? 3. Tie up yet more industry/research resources in completely unrelated mechanics? Great. These are all basically mission objectives/rewards. There would still be no meaning to FW. It would just add an element of a grind to it. - DesuSigs
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:46:00 - [25] I dont know if you read CCP's comments on faction warfare, but they expected a large drop in players after the novelty wore off, so I don't think they will be alarmed. Faction warfare is (or was) fun if you're just looking to get more PVP experience on an ad-hoc basis. It isn't a viable playstyle longer term though in terms of sustainability since like you say the ISK rewards from enemy loot/salvage do not match the risks. Especially when there's the issue of fleets of non-faction players in salvaging/looting noobships following all FW fleets around stealing the loot from all wrecks and being protected by sentries from any reprisals. Thats one element that sucks, though my understanding is that you're not supposed to make any real ISK from FW anyway - it is an ISK sink like most PVP, and CCP will probably be quite pleased about the impact it is having. Another issue of FW is the fact that there are some abusers of the spirit of FW in the militias. Wardeccing other corps/FCs/people in the militia, trolling in channels and generally being idiots and undermining any credible structure forming in the militias. These are just two things that I personally loathed about FW and a large part of why I left it. I'm sure many others share my views as the initial novelty wears off and the issues become apparent. This doesn't mean it'll die - plenty of folks will be hardcore FW folks "warts and all" and good luck to them. Re-examine the stats a year down the line before you start saying "FW is dying/dead".
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:48:00 - [26] Edited by: Le Skunk on 25/08/2008 16:49:56 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: oilio The lack of rewards is starting to become apparent. Every time I see this I want to hit someone. THEY HANDED YOU CONSEQUENCE FREE BULLSHIT FREE PVP ON A PLATTER HOT AND COLD RUNNING TARGETS WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? Well as many people pointed out - consequence free PVP is dull as dishwater. People who were being advised to "buy 20 t1 insured frigates and go out and fight!" soon realised It didnt matter one jot if they went AFK in the middle of a fleet fight, as they would just hop back into another ships at no cost Killing the enemy, meant similiarly little, as they would only drop crap loot, which would be stolen by your gang mates anyway. It was difficult to really work up a "hate" against the enemy - despite strained humerous attempts to call each other funny names - as all you stood to gain was a name over a system which meant nothing Also - CCP gave out a lot of free game time on accounts (as i said at the time) to falsely bolster the impact of FW. As this time ran out - people didnt bother to resub. This combined with the dreaded LAG (which was obviously going to be a fctor in Faction Warfare and which was strangely missing for the promotional material CCP sent out to sucker people into it) SKUNK
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:49:00 - [27] Edited by: Highwind Cid on 25/08/2008 16:49:58 Originally by: Zephyr Rengate On a side note: EVE IS DEAD!! No..NO it can't be aglhhhhWTFgdfBBQfds9000f%3spuddinpops*69GTFOdn[garmingj&%$3mnano5523level4gjketoomuchiskaghg!!1111!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:50:00 - [28] Edited by: Akita T on 25/08/2008 16:51:38 Originally by: Crumplecorn Because getting objectives handed to you is the same thing as empire building, amirite? Because fighting in a fleet with an opposing fleet is the same wether your alliance leader or a non-descript NPC agent gives you the objectives. Quote: Fighting for an NPC corp/alliance/whatever is always going to be meaningless. Playing the game is meaningless, if you want to get existential. Quote: 1&2. Reward glorified mission whoring. Great idea for a PvP mechanic. When all the pure PvPers who keep bothering the plex fleets leave, FW can finally take its place as another variety of low sec missioning eh? Isn't EVERYTHING in EVE about getting and spending ISK ? At least this way you get a chance to earn those ISK WHILE doing something you'd now usually just spend ISK to engage in. Quote: Tie up yet more industry/research resources in completely unrelated mechanics? Great. You can't do that now at all, it's merely yet another way FW participants can gain ISK with. Besides, didn't you just grumble something about empire building a few sentences ago ? Quote: These are all basically mission objectives/rewards. There would still be no meaning to FW. Hmm. Are we actually working on the same definition of the word "MEANING" here anyway ? Meaning. Purpose. A goal. Something you desire and set forth to acheive. PvP is the instrument you use to do that, not the goal. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.08.25 16:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Crumplecorn But CCP is never going to reward you for participating. FW is basically consensual PvP, paying you to participate crosses the line into WoW in space. I don't see why rewards would be a bad thing, so long as they can't be used outside of FW, or the 'reward' is you don't get the penalty of being on the losing side. All CCP has to do is make occupancy actually mean something useful to get people more interested. Also the wardec mess does need an in-game solution. But I've already said all I'm going to say on that in other threads. ---
oilio Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.25 17:04:00 - [30] Edited by: oilio on 25/08/2008 17:04:48 Maybe have deadspace areas with valuable resources that can only be accessed by militia who's faction control the system? The wardec thing is a mess, of course, and discourages corps (especially good ones, with good FCs) from joining FW. Thinking about it... If there was something really good to be gained from being in a militia that controls territory, people might flock back to FW in droves. I really hope CCP can work something out, because FW looked like it was going to be a great alternative to all the political hassles of nullsec alliance warfare - rather than some flash-in-the-pan sideshow. This could still be so. I really hope CCP are looking at FW and how it might be boosted.

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