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zero2espect
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
40
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Posted - 2012.03.26 06:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
for those that know, it is proposed that capacitor batteries have a % chance that they will reflect back to the aggressor, a cycle of cap warfare. eg. I have a neut fitted, I start draining somebody, they have a cap battery fitted, i roll "unlucky" instead of the target getting drained I do
I had it confirmed that the current testing off this A. is applied to cap warfare specialist ships and b. currently applies the bonuses effect amount with the exact words "if you fly a curse, you're pretty much ******!" (said with much glee)
so I ask you all, why
i can understand non specialist ships having this effect apply, along the lines of "you want to neut somebody do the training, spend the isk and use a ship designed for it" e.g. the curse and bhaal have immunity from the effect while a neut domi doesn't
I could also understand of each of the other specialties also had a "nemesis" module. e.g. a falcon jams a target with a eccm fitted has a % chance of dropping all its target locks or arazu points something with a stab and it can't warp for 20 seconds
but again I'm astounded why the curse and similar ships get such another massive Nerf (remember the nos change) while falcons and arazus continue to be insta win shiithin respective fleets (and yes I know that falcons should be compared to pilgrims but I'm just happy that one of the Amarr recons is ok, I don't want to ask for the impossible and ask for the pilgrim to actually be not made even more worse
I mean its not like you can't already fit a cap booster as defence from cap warfare which is much better than the effect of an eccm.
the long run I understand why the nos Nerf went thru (even though i still fondly re member the curse glory days) but seriously this is just a Amarr screw job
thoughts people? |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
63
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Posted - 2012.03.26 06:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
zero2espect wrote:for those that know, it is proposed that capacitor batteries have a % chance that they will reflect back to the aggressor, a cycle of cap warfare. eg. I have a neut fitted, I start draining somebody, they have a cap battery fitted, i roll "unlucky" instead of the target getting drained I do
I had it confirmed that the current testing off this A. is applied to cap warfare specialist ships and b. currently applies the bonuses effect amount with the exact words "if you fly a curse, you're pretty much ******!" (said with much glee)
so I ask you all, why
i can understand non specialist ships having this effect apply, along the lines of "you want to neut somebody do the training, spend the isk and use a ship designed for it" e.g. the curse and bhaal have immunity from the effect while a neut domi doesn't
I could also understand of each of the other specialties also had a "nemesis" module. e.g. a falcon jams a target with a eccm fitted has a % chance of dropping all its target locks or arazu points something with a stab and it can't warp for 20 seconds
but again I'm astounded why the curse and similar ships get such another massive Nerf (remember the nos change) while falcons and arazus continue to be insta win shiithin respective fleets (and yes I know that falcons should be compared to pilgrims but I'm just happy that one of the Amarr recons is ok, I don't want to ask for the impossible and ask for the pilgrim to actually be not made even more worse
I mean its not like you can't already fit a cap booster as defence from cap warfare which is much better than the effect of an eccm.
the long run I understand why the nos Nerf went thru (even though i still fondly re member the curse glory days) but seriously this is just a Amarr screw job
thoughts people?
It does seem kind of weird, do other weapons malfunctioning that badly (projectile weapons jamming, railgun/plasma/lasers overheating or going critical).
I am not even sure if nuteing is OP, is it? Would the total amount that could be nuted be increased to compensate for randomly functioning. Maybe a % chance of a critical that nutes twice as much (kind of like guns), that is the same as a self inflicting nute.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.26 06:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I can only imagine what happens when Curse's 5 medium neuts gets reflected back. Not a thought I would like to have. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
359
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Posted - 2012.03.26 06:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
yeah ccp clearly not thinking that one through lol |
Manar Detri
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.03.26 06:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Still the question is.. who's going to fit a cap battery ? :) You won't have space for it in pvp fits, none of the shield pvp fits will ever have one and armor ones mostlikely won't have one. Maybe the myrmidon could squeeze one in.
But still.. you're making this a whole lot too big of a thing. |
RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
171
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Posted - 2012.03.26 06:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Manar Detri wrote:Still the question is.. who's going to fit a cap battery ? :) You won't have space for it in pvp fits, none of the shield pvp fits will ever have one and armor ones mostlikely won't have one. Maybe the myrmidon could squeeze one in.
But still.. you're making this a whole lot too big of a thing.
I dunno maybe a carrier, dred, or something that screams neut me puts in one cap battery instead of a cap charger to get the reflect bonus in exchange for less cap recharge.
There are ways to use this. |
Mona X
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
64
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Posted - 2012.03.26 07:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
But capitals will be neuted by multiple enemies, even if they reflect half of neuting, it won't give them anything substantial.
I need new signature. |
Limvala Adur
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
2
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Posted - 2012.03.26 07:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
This isn't good because? Neuts, for their impact on a fight, have NO drawbacks what so ever. You simply have the ability to neut down a ship, without giving it any though. |
bldyannoyed
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
2
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Posted - 2012.03.26 07:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sounds to me like one of the changes needed to make local tanking even remotely viable in PvP along with the hinted at new local reps and fuel and whatnot.
Also as pointed out, fitting cap batteries is a pain in the ass. Oversized batteries are the only ones that actually give a credible amount of cap and they're all but impossible to fit on any decent setup, even assuming you do have the spare slot for one. Fitting the right size battery give you practically nothing so it will be a mod like eccm, literally only really useful when you're being neuted.
On the flipside of the coin if you're the one flying the neuting ship and you're in any kind of decent fleet with logis you should have spare cap transfers so getting the odd neut cycle fired back at you is going to make bugger all dfference. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.26 07:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Limvala Adur wrote:This isn't good because? Neuts, for their impact on a fight, have NO drawbacks what so ever. You simply have the ability to neut down a ship, without giving it any though.
Let's put it this way: what happens to Curse when its capacitor runs out of juice?
You can't use any of modules that keep Curse alive. - You can't use neuts - You can't use tracking disruptors - You can't use MWD/AB |
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Crellion
Parental Control HELL4S
4
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Posted - 2012.03.26 07:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
zero2espect wrote:for those that know, it is proposed that capacitor batteries have a % chance that they will reflect back to the aggressor, a cycle of cap warfare. eg. I have a neut fitted, I start draining somebody, they have a cap battery fitted, i roll "unlucky" instead of the target getting drained I do
I had it confirmed that the current testing off this A. is applied to cap warfare specialist ships and b. currently applies the bonuses effect amount with the exact words "if you fly a curse, you're pretty much ******!" (said with much glee)
so I ask you all, why
i can understand non specialist ships having this effect apply, along the lines of "you want to neut somebody do the training, spend the isk and use a ship designed for it" e.g. the curse and bhaal have immunity from the effect while a neut domi doesn't
I could also understand of each of the other specialties also had a "nemesis" module. e.g. a falcon jams a target with a eccm fitted has a % chance of dropping all its target locks or arazu points something with a stab and it can't warp for 20 seconds
but again I'm astounded why the curse and similar ships get such another massive Nerf (remember the nos change) while falcons and arazus continue to be insta win shiithin respective fleets (and yes I know that falcons should be compared to pilgrims but I'm just happy that one of the Amarr recons is ok, I don't want to ask for the impossible and ask for the pilgrim to actually be not made even more worse
I mean its not like you can't already fit a cap booster as defence from cap warfare which is much better than the effect of an eccm.
the long run I understand why the nos Nerf went thru (even though i still fondly re member the curse glory days) but seriously this is just a Amarr screw job
thoughts people?
-They are trying to revive a dead module. Other than Nanoishtars once upon a time this is used as much as marmite in Greece...
-A cap booster will be 10x the problem for someone relying on neuting you than a battery is.
-I agree however that neuting back a poor Curse is OTT. On the other hand giving Curse an immunity to this would contradict the purpose of the change to a great extent (or maybee not).\
-If I cna be so bold as to make a suggestion (since you ask for thoughts)n I would say instead of 5% chance to hit back make it complete immunity to the first two heavy/medium neuts to hit your ship (... the batttery aside form providing extra cap armor your capacitor containers maximizing their integrity blahblahblahblah)
This would allow a LOT of additional tactical potential... like ships with small neuts perma running and would divide the cap boosting world into two choices (a) injector for temprary boost to local cap (tank - neuts etc) and immunity to neuts or (b) battery for permanent small local cap increase and immunity to heavy (and med?) neuts...
Potential ....
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
228
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Posted - 2012.03.26 08:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP in "terrible idea" shocker. |
ACE McFACE
Acetech Systems
592
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 09:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Limvala Adur wrote:This isn't good because? Neuts, for their impact on a fight, have NO drawbacks what so ever. You simply have the ability to neut down a ship, without giving it any though. I think you're forgetting they need cap to activate them. I would consider that a downside Real men wear goggles and a Navy shirt! |
Limvala Adur
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
2
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Posted - 2012.03.26 09:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Limvala Adur wrote:This isn't good because? Neuts, for their impact on a fight, have NO drawbacks what so ever. You simply have the ability to neut down a ship, without giving it any though. Let's put it this way: what happens to Curse when its capacitor runs out of juice? You can't use any of modules that keep Curse alive. - You can't use neuts - You can't use tracking disruptors - You can't use MWD/AB
And what happens to basically any ship in the game when a random curse warps at 30 or so and practically shuts down everything a ship can do? That fun for the non-curse players? What about active tanking? Why should people watch it on videos and enjoy it, but simply don't want to waste ISK on it, because Neuts are SO widespread?
You must agree on this. ALL PVP SHIPS with free highs fit Neuts/wish they can fit neuts.
That's saying something right there. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
363
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Posted - 2012.03.26 09:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Limvala Adur wrote:And what happens to basically any ship in the game when a random curse warps at 30 or so and practically shuts down everything a ship can do? That fun for the non-curse players? What about active tanking? Why should people watch it on videos and enjoy it, but simply don't want to waste ISK on it, because Neuts are SO widespread?
You must agree on this. ALL PVP SHIPS with free highs fit Neuts/wish they can fit neuts.
That's saying something right there.
inb4 "because of CURSE" |
Mona X
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
64
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Posted - 2012.03.26 10:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Curse you, Curse! I need new signature. |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
185
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Posted - 2012.03.26 10:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm not particularly bothered by this notion, and I fly pretty much ONLY neut boats.
There are simply not a lot of pvp ships that have slots/need to fit a cap battery; Mid slots are always at a premium on pvp vessels and I doubt there is a whole lot of folks willing to slap an otherwise-useless module on their ship for a chance to negate a neut cycle.
The only thing I'm slightly worried about is Carriers becoming even more stupid in triage tactics by reducing the enemy ability to neut them out. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
183
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Posted - 2012.03.26 10:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Its in the right way of implementing their new philosophy of counter mechanics, too many use neuts -> more fit batteries -> less use neuts -> less fits batteries will be the new cycle of all ewar and possibly other things, its good for the game. If you cant change with whats going on in pvp youre dead, just like it should be. |
uredo
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
5
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Posted - 2012.03.26 10:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
What exactly is the problem that they are trying to fix here?
Cap-based warfare is currently in a pretty well-balanced state at the moment, I think.
Are we risking that balance just to make Capacitor Batteries more popular?! Really? |
Hans Tria
Dark Matter Inc
5
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Posted - 2012.03.26 11:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
uredo wrote:What exactly is the problem that they are trying to fix here?
Cap-based warfare is currently in a pretty well-balanced state at the moment, I think.
Neut's already have a many counters e.g. cap boosters
Are we risking that balance just to make Capacitor Batteries more popular?! Really?
This is insightful. There doesn't seem to be any problem to fix.
CCP screws up enough stuff without trying to fix problems that don't exist.
Counter to neuts is a boosterGÇöand it is much more effective than this proposition.
Edit: Where is this info coming from? I assumed from fanfest, but haven't seen anything else about it... |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2010
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Posted - 2012.03.26 11:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hans Tria wrote:uredo wrote:What exactly is the problem that they are trying to fix here?
Cap-based warfare is currently in a pretty well-balanced state at the moment, I think.
Neut's already have a many counters e.g. cap boosters
Are we risking that balance just to make Capacitor Batteries more popular?! Really? This is insightful. There doesn't seem to be any problem to fix. CCP screws up enough stuff without trying to fix problems that don't exist. Counter to neuts is a boosterGÇöand it is much more effective than this proposition. Edit: Where is this info coming from? I assumed from fanfest, but haven't seen anything else about it...
The info comes from fanfest. There was a load of new modules discussed in one of the presentation. The problem they're trying to solve isn't in the balance or any broken element. The problem is that things have stayed the same for too long and ship fittings have in some areas become too predictable. The purpose of these new modules and affects is to mix things up again and give people more choices when choosing what to fit. With these new mechanics CCP seems to be trying out a lot of different things, test them in the game in a limited fashion and see what works and what doesn't.
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Bouh Revetoile
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.03.26 11:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cap booster are not a counter to neut by themselves as they require very spacious ammo.
And saying that a curse caped out is screwed is just stupid as almost *any* ship caped out is screwed.
As already stated, bateries are a pain to fit, and pvp fit cannot fit one most of the time. And 5% is not that much; I mean, one neut cycle out of 20 (!) will be reflected ! I'm not even sure the neuting ship will lose more cap than its target (looking at cap neuted vs cap used).
Maybe active tanking will rebirth with this; but I'm not sure it will be enough. |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
295
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Posted - 2012.03.26 11:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Soundwave had an interview with Ten Ton Hammer where he stated the overall goal of shaking up stale fits. Having said that, batteries would have to have a third effect such as x% immunity to nuets or x% less draw from active modules to get me to consider them. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
201
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 12:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
wow th tin foil hats are out on this one.
You think your curse is going to be overnight instantly terrible?
Its not going to explode on the spot or anything :P http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2012.03.26 12:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quick Amarr has a useful PvP ship.
NERF THAT **** INTO THE GROUND. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
665
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 13:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
1) I don't see this effect being good enough to consider fitting both boring and weak cap batteries instead of fun and awesome cap booster.
2) Those saying cap-draining ships should be immune to that effect prolly should cry out for Falcon ECM immunity, too. Just saying. 14 |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
229
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Posted - 2012.03.26 14:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
IMO, Nos is the true counter to neuts. The problem with Nos is that it's too hard to fit, and possibly should drain a bit more too. Cut the CPU and PG of Nos by about 50%. |
Krystal Flores
Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
9
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Posted - 2012.03.26 14:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
But since the odds of the reflection are that high, (the chances of the neuts are 1:20). I believe its quite possible for a curse or pilgrim to get a bad cycle on a target with 3 neuts and cap itself out from near full.
The Bhal would take a few more but i assume normal pvp ships won't normally fit the batteries, seeing how much cap boosters are better. |
Yahrr
The Tuskers
11
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Posted - 2012.03.26 15:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
I guess Curse pilots are gonna have to fit cap batteries to reflect the reflected neuts... |
Jerick Ludhowe
Purification of Eden XIN DOA'ED
57
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Posted - 2012.03.26 15:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
wow this is one bad idea... How about being reasonable and just add a % of cap warfare resistance when one of these modules is fitted...
Or if neuts are really a problem (i don't think they are) just make the cap drained roughly based on sig res of the target. |
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