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upcoming curse, bhaal, etc Nerf.

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uredo ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 6	Posted - 2012.03.26 15:24:00 - [31] - Quote Gypsio III wrote: IMO, Nos is the true counter to neuts. The problem with Nos is that it's too hard to fit, and possibly should drain a bit more too. Cut the CPU and PG of Nos by about 50%. Not sure I agree with this completely - maybe medium and large are a bit heavy on the PG/CPU but smalls are ok. The new Assault Frigates are pretty much designed to always fit a nos. They all have one utility high slot, and the CPU and PG to fit one.
Nalha Saldana Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 186	Posted - 2012.03.26 16:24:00 - [32] - Quote uredo wrote: What exactly is the problem that they are trying to fix here? Cap-based warfare is currently in a pretty well-balanced state at the moment, I think. Neut's already have a many counters e.g. cap boosters Are we risking that balance just to make Capacitor Batteries more popular?! Really? Balanced? Every ship with a free highslot fits neuts and never missiles, smartbombs etc and almost every ship without a free highslot is seen as bad. Neuts are powerful and needs a better counter then cap boosters that dont really help you enough.
JoeTwo PointOh Aliastra Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2012.03.26 16:43:00 - [33] - Quote Nalha Saldana wrote: uredo wrote: What exactly is the problem that they are trying to fix here? Cap-based warfare is currently in a pretty well-balanced state at the moment, I think. Neut's already have a many counters e.g. cap boosters Are we risking that balance just to make Capacitor Batteries more popular?! Really? Balanced? Every ship with a free highslot fits neuts and never missiles, smartbombs etc and almost every ship without a free highslot is seen as bad. Neuts are powerful and needs a better counter then cap boosters that dont really help you enough. I do have to agree here. As much as I love neuting the **** out of someone, it's frustrating having a blaster boat that fights best inside neut range and being forced to sacrifice a mid for a cap booster. Other than a Tornado or a Maelstrom, how many minmatar ships are there out there that do not include a neut as part of their standard fit? How many ships in general use that extra high slot (if they have one) for something other than a neut. I'm not sold on the sounds of this proposal in terms of cap battery usage though, as they're generally less useful than a lot of other things I can think of for a mid slot, and too pg/cpu intensive. If the 5% chance to reflect somehow hits a neuting ship back, all it has to do is simply inject another booster. How many neuting ships do we know of that run without cap boosters?
Large Collidable Object morons. 1223	Posted - 2012.03.26 17:03:00 - [34] - Quote JoeTwo PointOh wrote: As much as I love neuting the **** out of someone, it's frustrating having a blaster boat that fights best inside neut range and being forced to sacrifice a mid for a cap booster. But sacrificing it for a cap battery would be a ton better, right? I appreciate CCP looking at unused modules, but this will neiher fix cap batteries nor do neuting ships need a nerf - I for one never heard about someone complaining about myriads of curse alts sitting on gates. Granted - neuts are ubiquitous thanks to Minmatar hulls util slots but they're hardly anyway near as detrimental to gameplay as e.g. ECM drones. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee.
JoeTwo PointOh Aliastra Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2012.03.26 17:15:00 - [35] - Quote Not really, as a 5% chance to turn someone's neuting around is MUCH worse than a 100% chance for me to just inject cap and keep going. Edit... Agreed again, I can think of a LOT of other things that need work before something like this.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 153	Posted - 2012.03.26 17:37:00 - [36] - Quote Neuts already have a counter-module, it's called a cap booster. Why do they need another one? I agree that bonused ships should be exempt from this effect, frankly.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1172	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:13:00 - [37] - Quote I've found that most fights involving neuts didn't require them in the first place. The damage output in a 1v1 BC fight is high enough that neuts aren't likely to play a role unless they're active tanked or you overheat multiple neuts (Hurricane/Cyclone basically). It seems that neuts are mostly used against: - Capitals: They're unlikely to fit batteries simply because of how much it gimps the cap recharge. Better to be neuted than to not have the cap you need in the first place. - Frigs: They're unlikely to fit batteries simply because of how much fittings they require. Furthermore, they'll just be overwhelmed next cycle by cruiser/BC neuts while the cruiser/BC isn't going to be too negatively affected by the 'failures'. Basically: the idea isn't well baked. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1172	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:14:00 - [38] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Neuts already have a counter-module, it's called a cap booster. Why do they need another one? I agree that bonused ships should be exempt from this effect, frankly. We made the argument that Nos bonused ships should be immune to the effect too... you can see how well that worked for us. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Lyron-Baktos Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle 61	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:17:00 - [39] - Quote ya, I'm not seeing any kind of need for this change. Maybe there was a reason that a module is not used. Because it's not needed. If people were going around complaining about how these modules sucked or where not powerful enough, then there may be a reason to look at this. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1173	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:18:00 - [40] - Quote Lyron-Baktos wrote: ya, I'm not seeing any kind of need for this change. Maybe there was a reason that a module is not used. Because it's not needed. If people were going around complaining about how these modules sucked or where not powerful enough, then there may be a reason to look at this. The module isn't used because its a ***** to fit. In a lot of ways its superior to a cap recharger. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

Lyron-Baktos Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle 61	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:29:00 - [41] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Lyron-Baktos wrote: ya, I'm not seeing any kind of need for this change. Maybe there was a reason that a module is not used. Because it's not needed. If people were going around complaining about how these modules sucked or where not powerful enough, then there may be a reason to look at this. The module isn't used because its a ***** to fit. In a lot of ways its superior to a cap recharger. -Liang still, I see no complaints of neuts being too powerful. On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1173	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:32:00 - [42] - Quote What? Do you even visit these forums? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Siphaanu SchlongBong Local Down 0	Posted - 2012.03.26 18:55:00 - [43] - Quote I like that they are trying to revive dead modules, which cap batteries certainly are. I found a niche role for Large Cap Battery on my Curse a while ago, but that was the only use I ever found for it... The bigger problem is they are trying to fix it with a chance effect. That is, in my opinion not a good idea. Seems they learned nothing from people reminding them how terrible ECM mechanic is.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1173	Posted - 2012.03.26 19:10:00 - [44] - Quote Siphaanu wrote: I like that they are trying to revive dead modules, which cap batteries certainly are. I found a niche role for Large Cap Battery on my Curse a while ago, but that was the only use I ever found for it... The bigger problem is they are trying to fix it with a chance effect. That is, in my opinion not a good idea. Seems they learned nothing from people reminding them how terrible ECM mechanic is. Yeah, not a fan of chance based mechanics. I'd rather see the +1000 cap be neut immune as the old suggestions did. -Liang Ed: And yes, I am aware of the loop holes there. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Zarnak Wulf CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 295	Posted - 2012.03.26 20:13:00 - [45] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Siphaanu wrote: I like that they are trying to revive dead modules, which cap batteries certainly are. I found a niche role for Large Cap Battery on my Curse a while ago, but that was the only use I ever found for it... The bigger problem is they are trying to fix it with a chance effect. That is, in my opinion not a good idea. Seems they learned nothing from people reminding them how terrible ECM mechanic is. Yeah, not a fan of chance based mechanics. I'd rather see the +1000 cap be neut immune as the old suggestions did. -Liang Ed: And yes, I am aware of the loop holes there. I really like this idea. Cap batteries would give extra, nuet immune cap. Tweak the numbers - especially fitting- and ship it.
Arte Insidious Design 1	Posted - 2012.03.26 20:37:00 - [46] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah, not a fan of chance based mechanics. I'd rather see the +1000 cap be neut immune as the old suggestions did. -Liang Ed: And yes, I am aware of the loop holes there. I really like this idea. Cap batteries would give extra, nuet immune cap. Tweak the numbers - especially fitting- and ship it. I thought the problem with that idea was always "what about when the pilot drops below that 'protected-cap barrier' on his own, how would the neut work then? I guess it just... wouldn't! A ship can still cap out then, just not because of what another ship is doing to it. Then, how would Nos work against cap batteries? Any Change? I think the idea quoted from fanfest is awful for the record. Some of the Devs invited feedback at the Fanfest, I hope they pick up on the weight of opinion in this thread for what it's worth.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux 1174	Posted - 2012.03.26 20:39:00 - [47] - Quote Arte wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah, not a fan of chance based mechanics. I'd rather see the +1000 cap be neut immune as the old suggestions did. -Liang Ed: And yes, I am aware of the loop holes there. I really like this idea. Cap batteries would give extra, nuet immune cap. Tweak the numbers - especially fitting- and ship it. I thought the problem with that idea was always "what about when the pilot drops below that 'protected-cap barrier' on his own, how would the neut work then? I guess it just... wouldn't! A ship can still cap out then, just not because of what another ship is doing to it. Then, how would Nos work against cap batteries? Any Change? I think the idea quoted from fanfest is awful for the record. Some of the Devs invited feedback at the Fanfest, I hope they pick up on the weight of opinion in this thread for what it's worth. The real problem is people that fit cap batteries and always stay above peak cap recharge. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Arte Insidious Design 1	Posted - 2012.03.26 20:49:00 - [48] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: The real problem is people that fit cap batteries and always stay above peak cap recharge. -Liang Oh. That. Maybe protect a limited % instead then? Meh, I'm no game designer or mathmatician
Kneebone K-H Light Industries 9	Posted - 2012.03.26 21:46:00 - [49] - Quote The Neut Immune option seems the best for several reasons. Whats to stop someone from putting a small cap battery on a battleship that offers the same feedback chance as a large cap battery? You would give up a midslot yes, but the cost of a small cap battery is peanuts compared to a Large Cap Battery. The Large Cap Battery would give an amount of cap a BS can work with so long as it is Neut Immune. CCP needs to learn that not every idea from brainstorming sessions should be made public. Brainstorming followed by a common sense review tends to work better. Or perhaps it did go through the CCP common sense review...
Trinkets friend Obstergo Persona Non Gratis 237	Posted - 2012.03.27 00:05:00 - [50] - Quote This thread IS CCP's "commonsense review". In case y'all missed it, their model for playtesting includes these steps in no particular order: - hookers - blow - designing something - loading it into the test server and faffing about with it - beta testing on SiSi - leaking the stats to the guy who pastes to Pastebin so it gets onto Eve-O and everyone gets their panties in a twist and every nubcake and his intellectually challenged forum alt can come and theorycraft it to death - putting it out on a Devblog ahead of time so Raiden can Q.Q like pansies for months and everyone else can salivate over bulk titan killmails - floating an idea on Eve-O forums and looking for people to theorycraft the idea and come up with alternative ideas or counter arguments - hookers AND blow AND beer The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter

Katalci Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp 46	Posted - 2012.03.27 00:34:00 - [51] - Quote Cap batteries will still be worthless if they do this properly and make it scale, so a supercarrier can't just fit 3 BS-sized cap batteries (assuming the effect is stacking penalized) and laugh at the fleet neuting it. If it doesn't scale, then this is one of the worst ideas ever. Though there really isn't much of a need to alter cap batteries -- they work for what they do; I put them on my "shuttle" t1 frigates so they can make long warps in one go. There is no need to make every module useful for PvP.
James Amril-Kesh Viziam Amarr Empire 129	Posted - 2012.03.27 00:52:00 - [52] - Quote Katalci wrote: Though there really isn't much of a need to alter cap batteries -- they work for what they do; I put them on my "shuttle" t1 frigates so they can make long warps in one go. There is no need to make every module useful for PvP. Very rarely do I run into the problem of not having enough cap to make a full warp in a traveling frigate. Is your warp drive operation skill trained at all? Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window!
Wacktopia Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 219	Posted - 2012.03.27 03:14:00 - [53] - Quote This idea sounds a bit derpy. I can't see myself wanting to make space in a fit for a battery on the off chance it will reflect a neut. Dunno, would like to see some reports from Sisi on it. .
FT Diomedes Factio Paucorum 17	Posted - 2012.03.27 03:14:00 - [54] - Quote What a terrible idea... if neuts are such a common problem on Cyclones and Hurricanes... then why not do something to Cyclones and Hurricanes? Oops. I better start wearing my flak and kevlar at all times now... In reality, of course, it will potentially screw over other ships. Part of the classic defense for a ratting BS, apart from don't be a moron and go AFK, is supposed to be a large neut. Love to see what happens to an active tanked ratter when his large neut backfires because some interceptor or assault ship fits a cap battery. If some change must go through, I like the idea of the cap battery creating a floor below which the ship cannot be neuted. Not that it matters much. The only ship I've ever fit a cap battery on was a Sacrilege - and that one fits an oversized one pretty easily if you exercise a little creativity. Edit - this is such a bizarre idea that the paranoid side of me thinks that someone influential owns the T2 Cap Battery BPOs.
Andrea Griffin 203	Posted - 2012.03.27 04:06:00 - [55] - Quote ACE McFACE wrote: Limvala Adur wrote: This isn't good because? Neuts, for their impact on a fight, have NO drawbacks what so ever. You simply have the ability to neut down a ship, without giving it any though. I think you're forgetting they need cap to activate them. I would consider that a downside Except that you spend less cap than is destroyed in the target. Neuts are a no-brainer for any ship with free high slots. It's barely a tactical decision at all. Reverse that and things could be much more interesting. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Voith Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2012.03.27 05:20:00 - [56] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Siphaanu wrote: I like that they are trying to revive dead modules, which cap batteries certainly are. I found a niche role for Large Cap Battery on my Curse a while ago, but that was the only use I ever found for it... The bigger problem is they are trying to fix it with a chance effect. That is, in my opinion not a good idea. Seems they learned nothing from people reminding them how terrible ECM mechanic is. Yeah, not a fan of chance based mechanics. I'd rather see the +1000 cap be neut immune as the old suggestions did. -Liang Ed: And yes, I am aware of the loop holes there. I too would rather see one of the few Amarr hulls viable for PvP made useless.
Jack Miton Lapse Of Sanity Exhale. 154	Posted - 2012.03.27 05:29:00 - [57] - Quote There's no issues with how neuts work currently. CCP, stop being silly mmk?
Arekhon Unknown Soldiers GIANTSBANE. 0	Posted - 2012.03.27 05:41:00 - [58] - Quote Limvala Adur wrote: And what happens to basically any ship in the game when a random curse warps at 30 or so and practically shuts down everything a ship can do? That fun for the non-curse players? What about active tanking? Why should people watch it on videos and enjoy it, but simply don't want to waste ISK on it, because Neuts are SO widespread? You must agree on this. ALL PVP SHIPS with free highs fit Neuts/wish they can fit neuts. That's saying something right there. um, hello Falcon!!! Same thing, they warp in and everything gets shut down. How about instead make the penalty apply to all other ships accept those with neut bonuses
Mfume Apocal Origin. Black Legion. 373	Posted - 2012.03.27 06:13:00 - [59] - Quote Andrea Griffin wrote: Except that you spend less cap than is destroyed in the target. Neuts are a no-brainer for any ship with free high slots. It's barely a tactical decision at all. Reverse that and things could be much more interesting. The tactical decision comes from when and how you choose to employ the neuts.
Crellion Parental Control HELL4S 5	Posted - 2012.03.27 06:27:00 - [60] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Arte wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Yeah, not a fan of chance based mechanics. I'd rather see the +1000 cap be neut immune as the old suggestions did. -Liang Ed: And yes, I am aware of the loop holes there. I really like this idea. Cap batteries would give extra, nuet immune cap. Tweak the numbers - especially fitting- and ship it. I thought the problem with that idea was always "what about when the pilot drops below that 'protected-cap barrier' on his own, how would the neut work then? I guess it just... wouldn't! A ship can still cap out then, just not because of what another ship is doing to it. Then, how would Nos work against cap batteries? Any Change? I think the idea quoted from fanfest is awful for the record. Some of the Devs invited feedback at the Fanfest, I hope they pick up on the weight of opinion in this thread for what it's worth. The real problem is people that fit cap batteries and always stay above peak cap recharge. -Liang I don't know what's scarrier about this, the pvp abuse with ovrsized batteries (not such a huge problem IMO if Large is the largest but haven' properly thought it through) or the option of everyone and their mum soloing lvl5s and high end plexes etc etc in active tanks... Still there might be options here to revive both nos and battery... anyone can direct me to a thread about proposed nos changes? couldnt find it



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