well i got a Q to throw out now to the community

would you rarther have these small carriers BANNED from HS like ther larger brothers or allow them into HS would mix stuff up a bit.

It would depend if they had Jump drives or not. We're talking about something with a rattlesnake esk tank and fighters. What could be construed as an amazing AFK mission ship or worse, a new incursion platform. The question is, do we limit these escorts to having a fighter only drone bay, thus limiting them to an Anti BS/Cap ship role?

Pricing would also be an issue, I would imagine it would be around an ORCA price. Alternatively you may have just discovered a viable anti super ship.....Think about it, it can only field 5 drones, BUT could field fighter bombers as well as fighters. With no high slot weaponry its task is pretty clear and a much more limited tank. You would need to bring 4 of these to match a current super carrier in terms of damage.

*cough* Domi on roids *cough*

It would depend if they had Jump drives or not. We're talking about something with a rattlesnake esk tank and fighters. What could be construed as an amazing AFK mission ship or worse, a new incursion platform. The question is, do we limit these escorts to having a fighter only drone bay, thus limiting them to an Anti BS/Cap ship role?

Pricing would also be an issue, I would imagine it would be around an ORCA price. Alternatively you may have just discovered a viable anti super ship.....Think about it, it can only field 5 drones, BUT could field fighter bombers as well as fighters. With no high slot weaponry its task is pretty clear and a much more limited tank. You would need to bring 4 of these to match a current super carrier in terms of damage.

- giving something BS sized T2 resists would result in 250-350K tanks and result in mission killdozer ships, even if only in lowsec
- fighters in hisec, you don't think this would result in station campers assigning 50 at atime to ceptors on undock? Yeah, great idea.
- cost is no issue, so making something Orca sized is no barrier to entry
- making it take BS 4 skill doesn't address fighter prerequisites, so this wouldn't be a nub boat by any means.
- so you decided to give it drones. Great, now it is a Domi on roids!
- what about utility slots, sure it won't have turrets but it could fit neuts and an Orca has a sodding massive pile of cap. *cough* domi on roids *cough*
- speaking of cap what would the active tanking be like? Oh, right, ridiculous, because people would want to drop faction boosters and play station games in hisec. Thats if they don't cloak, or sit at hisec POS's. Great, now its just like nullsec!
- how to make sane for wormholes? Impossibru! Its like a pop-up carrier for low end wormholes. (actually, the only positive implication of this concept)

A pvp combat viable T2 battleship? Gasp.

I am 100% sure this gets discussed monthly. These are the general problems that are discussed monthly:
- giving something BS sized T2 resists would result in 250-350K tanks and result in mission killdozer ships, even if only in lowsec
- fighters in hisec, you don't think this would result in station campers assigning 50 at atime to ceptors on undock? Yeah, great idea.
- cost is no issue, so making something Orca sized is no barrier to entry
- making it take BS 4 skill doesn't address fighter prerequisites, so this wouldn't be a nub boat by any means.
- so you decided to give it drones. Great, now it is a Domi on roids!
- what about utility slots, sure it won't have turrets but it could fit neuts and an Orca has a sodding massive pile of cap. *cough* domi on roids *cough*
- speaking of cap what would the active tanking be like? Oh, right, ridiculous, because people would want to drop faction boosters and play station games in hisec. Thats if they don't cloak, or sit at hisec POS's. Great, now its just like nullsec!
- how to make sane for wormholes? Impossibru! Its like a pop-up carrier for low end wormholes. (actually, the only positive implication of this concept)

Actually they're not asking here for a simple high sec combat carrier, term used is "Escort carrier" and for some you would need 4 of those to match a SUPER CARRIER dps witch is 12k for a nyx, so 3k dps.

I hope you see where this is going?- ok, let me help you: isk printing machine but afk mode or ultra "I play with my alts, I'm not alone" killing incursions all day long.

This is the bit I don't like about this idea. However, limit the drones to a flight of 5 and it'd be no better than a Dominix or a Rattlesnake for missions but would have fighters should you wish to fight in low/null with them.

Sorta like an Orca tank with some dps from 5 fighters. Kind of like a half way house between Battleships and Carriers but a fraction of the cost, a fraction of the tank and a fraction of the dps.

Fighters would be pretty useless in missions anyway. Fighters can't hit anything below a Battleship with any real force and would take ages to finish even the easiest of missions.

ok its been a real ship class before its been in other games before so mebe we can see an escort carrier class possibly.

im looking forward to all the hate comments from every one aba escort carriers an what not.

To me tho its a reasonable idea, a ship a lil larger than a battleship with barely any weapons but aloued to carry up to 5 fighters no fighter bombers

just something a little cheeper than a full carrier so ppl can feel the awsomeness off fighters a lil sooner.

Or just let me fly a fighter or fighterbomber by interacting with a friendly carrier, almost like POS guns. THAT would be cool.

Someone speaking of "the awsomeness off fighters" obviously never encountered them. Your proposal (5 fighters, no weapons) would do less DPS than a cruiser, what's the point again?

you do need to actualy read thro the thread i stated that the carrier WOULD have weapons on it but not many aka caldari would have 2 missle hardpoints plz read the full thread b4 commenting

I think what they mean Lysander is that 2 hard points, un bonused would do nothing anyway. The Fighters/Drones would be its main dps. Besides if it is a "carrier" they'll fit neuts/smartbombs in its high slots. PVE wise you'd maybe get the 2 guns/launchers, drone control range extender and 2 other misc?

For a Mini carrier with only 5 fighters/fighter bombers with a t1 battleship tank as a super cap killer, it could work well. I guess the easiest way to fix this in high sec is that they are too big for acceleration gates(knocks out what, 75% of missions? and all incursions). Allow them a bay only big enough for say, 10 fighers and 2 flights of t1 light/medium drones. That way, if people HAVE to mission run in them, they barely out dps a dominix/rattlesnake while remaining a viable option of anti super caps.

Also, it cannot fit DCU's. That way it would be limited in its dps and conform to the 4 escorts per super carrier.

Bonus's could be 5% fighter/fighter bomber damage per level. 5% resist per level? Maybe for Amarr Caldari, though gallente/minmatar im not sure. Leave out the huge control range bonus? That way the fighters can only be told to engage close to the fleet in its escort capacity.

After reading all the posts there isn't really anything I can think of too add, but I want to say I hope CCP reads this idea and considers it. I think it would be a lot of fun to have, while I like the idea of they are too big for accelerator gates why not make them low sec only or but a new rule like .7 or .6 and lower. This way you can come into some high sec but not most. Just and idea.

I think it would be ok to have an Escort Carrier in hi sec as long as it's fighters weren't allowed to be used there. If all it has are normal drones, it'd be no worse than an Orca in that respect.

Definitely don't allow it to use acceleration gates. Don't want to see them used for missions as a matter of course.

For the Design a Spaceship contest Ker40 designed some escort carriers:

http://kero40.deviantart.com/

Awesome work that captures the aesthetic of each race perfectly.

A lot of those designs are phenomenal. And clearly this concept is something that not just the few of us here want...

What need does this fill? We already have an anti-cap capital ship. It's called a dreadnought. If you want a drone ship, the Dominix, Navy Dominix, and Rattlesnake fill the role nicely.

What need does this fill? We already have an anti-cap capital ship. It's called a dreadnought. If you want a drone ship, the Dominix, Navy Dominix, and Rattlesnake fill the role nicely.

To have more epic loojking space ships to fly

Tell me how we can go wrong with more ships ??

A lot of ways unfortunately. A great deal of ships currently remain unused for the most part. CCP is in the process of reviewing them however

What need does this fill? We already have an anti-cap capital ship. It's called a dreadnought. If you want a drone ship, the Dominix, Navy Dominix, and Rattlesnake fill the role nicely.

This will come off the wrong way but, because those dreads are working so well? We have seen a multitude of "buff dreadnoughts" in the past few months/years.

With that logic, why do we have carriers and super carriers at all then? They are powerful logistical ships that have more defenses than the standard logi ships and can fill a roll in high sec in the case of a war dec.

Also the domi and rattlesnake look nothing like how a carrier should look and it ticks me off how the rattlesnake and navy domi which neither of them even have a place in the model for a drone bay can somehow be the uber drone carriers that they are.

Then... buff dreads. Seems like common sense to me to fix the ships we have rather than introducing a new class just to have some new eye candy that will either come pre-nerfed to hell or pre-boosted to heaven.

HIgh sec carrier: Dominix

High sec uber carrier: Rattlesnake

I like the way you call it a noob carrier i didnt think off that but we could have a ship that can have 2 fighters and call it a noob carrier lo

What i dont get is why carnt you see the benifit off having A more awsome spaceships (the hole point off the game

What role does your ship fill in that is not already done better for cheaper by existing ships. What does it improve on. Chime in with complete specs (HP, slot layout, grid, CPU, cap, drone bay, estimated build cost) because "can deploy 5 fighters" ain't the hot selling point you make it. What you described so far ain't awesome at all, but something headed straight to the reprocess bin.

Fighters basically suck, the only good thing about them is assigning them in 0.3 and lower, and the very double edged following of targets in warp (which will net you a kill rarely, dead fighters often). And the marginally better DPS on big targets, for a very expensive cost.

Also spell checkers are a wonderful 20th century invention, you are very painful to read.

What role does your ship fill in that is not already done better for cheaper by existing ships. What does it improve on. Chime in with complete specs (HP, slot layout, grid, CPU, cap, drone bay, estimated build cost) because "can deploy 5 fighters" ain't the hot selling point you make it. What you described so far ain't awesome at all, but something headed straight to the reprocess bin.

Fighters basically suck, the only good thing about them is assigning them in 0.3 and lower, and the very double edged following of targets in warp (which will net you a kill rarely, dead fighters often). And the marginally better DPS on big targets, for a very expensive cost.

Also spell checkers are a wonderful 20th century invention, you are very painful to read.

I wrote a long response, forums at it.

TL:DR versions, pocket carrier, fighter bombers for anti cap ship, 5 hi slots, no triage module. Less tank then carrier, more then t1 BS. Can't use acc gates but can use normal ones. Debatable on jump drive. Fighters useful vs BS's, use normal drones for cruisers/frigs. counter arguement, ishtar can do the same as dominix for nominally more cost. Can't fit dcu's to allow normal dps.

I think that covered most of what I had to say.

O and you need to use your fighters better as mine clear sanctums just fine and much faster then sentry 2's. PVP wise, don't let them chase, that's just beyond dumb for 100mil isk per 5 flight.

Giving them fighter bombers are in interesting idea, not obsoleting completely dreads for cap warfare if you only allow five and forbid drone control units. And yeah fighters are ok, but definitely not the selling point of carriers. My point was a five fighters ship isn't attractive. But then the skilling for fighter bombers would make them harder to get into than a carrier.

Giving them fighter bombers are in interesting idea, not obsoleting completely dreads for cap warfare if you only allow five and forbid drone control units. And yeah fighters are ok, but definitely not the selling point of carriers. My point was a five fighters ship isn't attractive. But then the skilling for fighter bombers would make them harder to get into than a carrier.

You raise a good point here. Allow them to use FB's, but not make them mandatory to train? Gives carebears incentive to train it, PVP pilots who are being whipped by their null sec over lords will do the long train, or even possibly, there would be less supers around as people could dock these. Free up their alts to play with rather then place hold

Not needed. The escort carrier was invented as a stopgap to stop U-boats raping convoys, during a war, when ships were hard to build due to time pressure.
EVE has not got that problem.
Carriers are ten a penny in null, and you don't tend to have convoys. And you can't exactly retrofit a freighter with a flat top and call it a carrier.

However, an EVE-ish measure would be another tier of BS-class hulls. Drone boats, basically, with fighters for tackling bigger ships, or just big drone bays for doing logistical stuff.

Ok Lysander,
Read your post earlier today and gave it a thought or two...
I always found the categories of ships with lonely SUBcategories in them to be... intriguing if you know what I mean. Hints of what's to come, maybe. With the scrambling of training tree to come, I guess making things easy to implement in the game is the key to ever seeing it happen. So don't implement four, just make one. So i came up with this

Industrial Ship / Advanced Industrial Ship / Warzone Behemoth / ORE /

Architeuthi: (Giant Squid)
(think of Rorqual with lenght cut in half , less containers but some cut-open at one end.

*Easy to make up a story about whatever industrials needed firepower/defence during ''that war'... bla bla bla... materials too scarced to build carriers, but had drones produced in big quantities because of war... ...so they created the Behemoths.

*Can use gates but can't use acccel. gates... Roger that.
*Fitting service but no ship hangar.
*10 drones/5 fighters when optimal sounds good but no turrets/launcher
*Can fit / bonus to: Skirmish Warfare Link

+Narrows the gap between small industrials ships and capital ones.
+Opens the doors for heavy fleet combats for Industry oriented characters.
+Quicker access to fighters but not usable for HS afk missionning.

OK my proposal (escort ships)
*New hull not a T2 (to expensive/unobtainable to the newer player)
*They stay off the other caps turf, no triage no drone links no logi bonus
*most of there HP in there races tank type, and almost no hull
*Can use gates
*bandwidth for 5 fighters or 10 drones.
*limited slot lay out and fittings.
*no jump drive

Hear is my try at the Caldari one-

Karura

Hi-4 (3missile)

Mid-5

Low-2

Rig-3/400 (large)



CPU-825

POW-9,750

Capacitor-18,500/recharge 15570s



Drone bandwidth-250
Drone bay-55,000 m3


Shield-55,500/recharge12500s
Armour- 9,500
Structure- 5,000


Targeting range- 88k
Scan Resolution-185 mm
Gravimetric Sensor Strength-64 points

Signature Radius- 745m

Corp hanger-5,000 m3
Maintenance bay-550,000 m3


Max Velocity- 75 m/sec
Inertia Modifier- 0.075
Mass-390,000,000 kg

Capacity 725 m3

Warp speed- 3 au



Roll bonus

75% reduction in duration and liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation

50% increase to shield booster repairer amount and capacitor use

200% bonus to Fighter control range

Can deploy 5 additional drones


Escort bonuses

5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

10% bonus to fighter and drone tracking, optimal range max velocity per level

OK my proposal (escort ships)
*New hull not a T2 (to expensive/unobtainable to the newer player)
*They stay off the other caps turf, no triage no drone links no logi bonus
*most of there HP in there races tank type, and almost no hull
*Can use gates
*bandwidth for 5 fighters or 10 drones.
*limited slot lay out and fittings.
*no jump drive

Hear is my try at the Caldari one-

Karura

Hi-4 (3missile)

Mid-5

Low-2

Rig-3/400 (large)



CPU-825

POW-9,750

Capacitor-18,500/recharge 15570s



Drone bandwidth-250
Drone bay-55,000 m3


Shield-55,500/recharge12500s
Armour- 9,500
Structure- 5,000


Targeting range- 88k
Scan Resolution-185 mm
Gravimetric Sensor Strength-64 points

Signature Radius- 745m

Corp hanger-5,000 m3
Maintenance bay-550,000 m3


Max Velocity- 75 m/sec
Inertia Modifier- 0.075
Mass-390,000,000 kg

Capacity 725 m3

Warp speed- 3 au



Roll bonus

75% reduction in duration and liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation

50% increase to shield booster repairer amount and capacitor use

200% bonus to Fighter control range

Can deploy 5 additional drones


Escort bonuses

5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level

10% bonus to fighter and drone tracking, optimal range max velocity per level

Industrial Ship / Advanced Industrial Ship / Warzone Behemoth / ORE /

Architeuthi: (Giant Squid)
(think of Rorqual with lenght cut in half , less containers but some cut-open at one end.

What's the point of only 5 fighters? A Dominix or Ishtar can do pretty much the same dmg with 5 heavies/sentries. 10 fighters do less dps than quite a few BS (which can do more dmg to < BS size targets).

5 Fighter Bombers then yes, it's creating something different.

Actually, let me go on.

Without a triage module and no defined logistical ability, your Escort Carrier, as proposed above, would be perfect for dropping as cyno bricks (possibly Rel'ks idea), backed up by triage carriers.

You'd be able to fit it with spastically huge active tanks (think twin XL shield boosters, boost amps; 3000DPS) then prop with incoming energy reps from full-sized carriers. Because you can't triage an escort carrier, this is the only role you are left with, but guess what, its no disadvantage! Being unable to triage means you are always open for getting reps from full-sized capitals or logis - and your buffer is so huge you can't easily be alpha'ed by anything smaller than a DD.

You basically become an anti-subcap support ship, as intended, except that you perform this better than anything else. You can fit neuts, smartbombs, drone nav computers (5km/s webber drones, wheee!), assign fighters, utterly destroy enemy tackle, support, EWAR, everything.

Why, you have convinced me! I would pay 500M for one of these bad boys!

@ teh bombers thing

Cant do bombers.....read how they use bandwith its kinda weird

And why not save that fro a T2?

@Araral
for the caps and super caps the cyno is for your deturent/attack. fighter bombers use 1200 bandwith each and they coast alot to use in both skills and isk, kinda want the ship to be below a carrier/super carrier in most ways.

@Araral



The huge bandwith is a problem from a developers stand point because it paints you in to a corner, you can never make say a rig that lets you launch a extra drone or a other type of drone that uses more bandwith.

The ship was not buy its design made to kill caps or super caps, it was made to "escort" fleets.

ok a rattle snake with 125 bandwith getting to add riggs to get 3 more drones, or use a drone that takes 50 bandwith is not the same as a escort Carrier that has 2500 bandwith getting 3 more drones or using a drone with a 50 bandwith or getting 3 more of the 50 bandwith drones.


STO tho fun is not were we should take ship roles from, the original escort carriers were to defend against u-bouts(recons) and small destroyers/PT boats(not main fleet battle ships and full carriers)


EDIT fighter bombers use 500 bandwith each

Due to the stacking quoting going on, mostly tl:dr

Don't give it more than a couple of frigates worth of ship-space max. As for turrets etc, I agree with no logi space, no remote repping, no triage, but perhaps drone disrupting fields, tying in with the role as anti-fighter.

Of course it would be difficult to implement and it would cause an entirely new kind of skills to be required.

How about Interdictors get to have some Drone Disrupting PROBEs launched from same launchers as Interdiction Probe...

Area Effect that causes them to disconnect from their owner... like when you warp away, forgetting to retrieve em.
Single Use, Time based. (Time limititation because we don't want an anti-drone forcefield.)

Most effective against BIG and slow boats. (Wouldnt affect sentries much though.)
I thought about giving it to stealth bombers since they have bomb launchers but Interdictors need the gain in popularity, not the stealth bombers.

So we can make the escort carrier UBER.

"Most often built on a commercial ship hull, escort carriers were too slow to keep up with the main forces consisting of fleet carriers, battleships, and cruisers. Instead, they were used to defend convoys from enemy threats such as submarines and planes. In the invasions of mainland Europe and Pacific islands, escort carriers provided air support to ground forces during amphibious operations. Escort carriers also served as backup aircraft transports for fleet carriers, and ferried aircraft of all military services to points of delivery."

I just want to point out that "escort carriers" not only acted as a stopgap convoy escorts but as fighter resupply ships and supported amphibious assaults as well.


-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escort_carrier

Came expecting another "hurr-durr I haz a new ship type" crackpot idea. Actually found a rather decent concept that I approve of.

Left surprisingly (and pleasantly) disappointed.

+1

Literally take the Orca, make some small changes to HP (little additions) and take away some of the cargo space, as per the description of escort carriers being refitted civilian ships. There's absolutely no need what so ever to give a high sec ship like this 55k shields and then a shield resistant per skill level bonus, that's just plain stupid. This thing should tank like a high tier battleship, as to not allow them to simply walk through level 4's or act as incursion support.
As for the whole fighter or fighter bomber argument: that's totally not happening in high sec. Yes, I'd love a ship that was a mini-carrier and possibly able to deploy 10 drones (see more in a minute, no, not 10 OMG OGRES WTF), but fighters in high sec? I really don't think so. And if they did, they'd just be assigned to people and sit at a POS, really can't see that happening. Fighters are for null, live with it and go out there, or suck it up and face the fact you'll never see a carrier.

Continueing about it's drone-ness, sure, give it a big drone bay. It's a droney boat after all, right? Take away any weapon slots (I think I saw that "Kakura" or whatever have two missile slots? No. Make a choice, do you want to shoot or use a drone specific boat. But limit the bandwidth to 150 or 175 or so. Make the skill bonus "+1 drone controlled per level" and make the skill a high rank, meaning you need to be level 5 in order to use 10 drones, let's face it; most people will stick at level 4, because it'd likely be a 30-40 day trip to level 5. So yes it can use 10 drones, but the bandwidth would limit it to only 6-7 heavy/sentries. Make it a fleet support vessel, not something that should be able to go and take on a battleship. I don't know what it could put in the high slots. Gang links? Perhaps remote reps (nowhere near carrier or logi reps though, and limited to "large" size. And only have 2-3 of them). Either way, the high sec version shouldn't be an offensive or DPS heavy ship, that's my opinion anyway. It should be there to support an existing fleet.

Now, perhaps we could have two ships in the "escort carrier" class, the above, aforementioned high sec supporty boat, and maybe a null sec 5 fighters (perhaps fighter bombers) as per users above ideas? Just an idea, now go hate me, I guess

Did anyone point out that people would assign fighters to their CNRs to make running mission easier yet?

Don't intend to get you flamiing, just asking is there a real need for this ships in highsec pvp(what you intend it to be).

Id rather see a T2 version of the tier 3 Battle ship that fits a dooms day then a nother cap to kill the even more caps with.

Also the role has be posted i mean why have an orca one theres roq's? because they can't go through gates and are huge and cost alot.

not to meantion WH's

I know lots of carrier pilots that would love to aculy you know fly the ship around and not just wait to jump to the cyno when and if needed.

A lot of people in this thread have never used fighters. Slow, expensive and very bad at damaging anything smaller than battleships.

Carriers are giant logistics ships when they are on the battlefield. Why this continuously eludes people, I'm not entirely sure. They are not a DPS platform

They. Are. Not. DPS. Ships. Say it as many times as you need too.

[quote=Patient 2428190]A lot of people in this thread have never used fighters. Slow, expensive and very bad at damaging anything smaller than battleships

Carriers are giant logistics ships when they are on the battlefield. Why this continuously eludes people, I'm not entirely sure. They are not a DPS platfor

They. Are. Not. DPS. Ships. Say it as many times as you need too.[/quote


An escort carrier is basicly a GIANT but slighly smaller than a carrier, logistics ship.

ok its been a real ship class before its been in other games before so mebe we can see an escort carrier class possibly.

im looking forward to all the hate comments from every one aba escort carriers an what not.

To me tho its a reasonable idea, a ship a lil larger than a battleship with barely any weapons but aloued to carry up to 5 fighters no fighter bombers

just something a little cheeper than a full carrier so ppl can feel the awsomeness off fighters a lil sooner.

We don't need a smaller carrier than we already have. The standard ones are almost right in cost and scope compared to other capitals. Carriers need to be a little cheaper and they need a more clear role in capital fights. They could serve well as an escort ship to capital fleets. Where dreads/titans/sc's provide the heavy artillary, a carrier could provide it with means to defend against smaller ships or some other Ewar solution. Apply the fighter control range bonus to drones aswell, for starters.


You could let them fit some type of long range electronic warfare solution, maybe even a warp disruptor that can tackle supers? There are a million things you can do with the carriers to refine capital ship warfare a bit more without adding another capital hull.

I'll repeat:


We. Do. Not. Need. Another. Carrier. Hull. Dot.

What we need is a carrier makeover.

@Lysander WHERE DOES IT FITS IN HIGHSEC PVP!!?? Dockturbation?

In lower security systems you already have carriers.

If you want only drones you already have droneboats.

Solo afk incursion runner ftw?

As well to get the feel of a carrier it would sit in HS PVP as a carrier just weeker and cheeper,

WH space it would sit well in supporting carrier's as thay attack other WH's,

Low sec and null sec ther could be so many difrent things it could do.

And what does a carrier? And what it would do in highsec meta?

iirc even fighters get eaten by sleepers. Or do you plan to siege ppl? Or fight their T3 with it?

Like die at the hands outrepped fighters of a true carrier?

Your concept is NOT thorough or specific. You JUST WANT a ship and that is not a sufficient enough reason.

Tier3 BC's have an awesome concept yours is just a smaller version of what already exists.