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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:19:00 - [811] Originally by: Delos Harriman Originally by: Catherine Frasier As to "empathy for my peers", my peers don't metagame, don't cheat and don't emoragequit over a policy change. Those who do, while they may be my fellow Eve players, are not my peers, and for them I have very, very little sympathy. To be blunt: screw 'em. Well, we've had a documented instance of CCP devs cheating (documented by CCP, no less), so why spend time defending a group that (by your own definition) you don't consider your peers, and you have no sympathy for? That was vile, reprehensible, and has long since been addressed. It's over. That means we get to stop whining about it now. Cool eh? If you don't think it was handled well enough then what exactly are you still doing here? This decision has nothing to do with that incident. Even if you have a video of some Dev tossing puppies into a woodchipper it doesn't change a single thing about this particular decision.
Jei'son Bladesmith The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:19:00 - [812] I benefitted from ghost training quite a bit and certainly am not happy to see it go, but technically it was just a bug, its not like it was a game feature they're removing. I'm glad I got as much benefit from it as i did. To all the whiners.... its a f'n game. adapt, die, or gb2wow
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:19:00 - [813] Originally by: Katana Seiko You know... When you got to think about it... Active playing is about making money in EVE. Training just comes as a gizmo that allows you to fly bigger ships. Originally by: CCP Fallout This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not. I claim that this is a lie that CCP holds up to cover their greed. Just like Bush held up his "Terrorists" sign to justify his war in Iraq. A player that doesn't play the game might be able to fly a bigger ship - but how will he ever be able to afford it if not by playing the game? There's no way a player not actually playing the game will gain any advantage over other players. By buying isk from outside farmers, perhaps? See, it is possible, and unfair to those who actually pay that some shmoe is getting ahead and not even paying CCP, so they can improve the game (or at least keep it running...I'm not sure I agree with some of the 'balancing' they've done).
Haldane Fisher Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:19:00 - [814] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Delos Harriman Originally by: Catherine Frasier As to "empathy for my peers", my peers don't metagame, don't cheat and don't emoragequit over a policy change. Those who do, while they may be my fellow Eve players, are not my peers, and for them I have very, very little sympathy. To be blunt: screw 'em. Well, we've had a documented instance of CCP devs cheating (documented by CCP, no less), so why spend time defending a group that (by your own definition) you don't consider your peers, and you have no sympathy for? That was vile, reprehensible, and has long since been addressed. It's over. That means we get to stop whining about it now. Cool eh? If you don't think it was handled well enough then what exactly are you still doing here? This decision has nothing to do with that incident. Even if you have a video of some Dev tossing puppies into a woodchipper it doesn't change a single thing about this particular decision. Isn't it possible to love a game but despise the people running it? "Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive (in the second scenario you can't change skill training, though)."
PsychoBones II R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 - [815] Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK typical, CCp nerfs the GTC's, then wonders why theres a run on the GTc's just b4 the nerf. then they wonder why everyone suspends thier accounts, so they spam everyone to try to find out whats going on.... some ppl respond that RL is issue, others that there are game issues... ZOMG!!! fleet battles problems is fixed... then credit crunch hits, ppl are tooo busy tryin to feed themselves to play games and have left thier accounts dark training in the meantime. so ccp sees a spike in income, then a drop off, and low usage of GTC's as lots go dark. ccp thinks...hmmmm we need to pay for exotic fishies for the promo-uber tank (and no ovour doing a charity gig of nivana - smells like teen spirit in the tank Simply wont cut-it) [though im sure we'd all like to see that on the site or at the fanfest. then the userbase is hammered by fixing a long term game mechanic that was ticking over in the background for 5 years, hmmmm thinks....... Bob must have all thier cap fleet up to titans by now ;p (oops time to nerf the opposition)hehehehe isnt it time to nerf the titan fleets (more than just a little bit) the game is unplayable against titans if ur in a ickle ship....(of even a BS) yet again CCP4tW (we luv u really).......................honest what the **** is that? Quit banning me.
Delos Harriman Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 - [816] Y'know, I really don't have much of an opinion about "ghost training"...I've done it, and probably would have in the future, but only when I was stopping my sub for another reason. Having said that, the change itself isn't the problem here...at least, in my opinion. As has been stated quite a few times before this, it's the way it was delivered to us. If you want your staff to have a PvP mentality to operate your PvP-centric game...good decision. But you'd better have someone at the helm of community relations that doesn't think in terms of "us vs. them"...that attitude leads to PR disaster after PR disaster. What I find interesting is this...CCP can find a doctor of economics to "consult" on the in-game economy, but apparently can't find a public relations professional to handle this kind of thing? Really? One of the first things you learn in PvP training is "no smack talk in local," and while neither of the official statements from CCP rise to the level of smack talk...well, they're closer to that than to a statement to your community regarding what you know will be a controversial change.
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 - [817] Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? The player's guide just said that was what the game did. Where, exactly, was is listed as a feature?
KeratinBoy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 - [818] Originally by: Annaphera Wow. Just...wow. Take off the tinfoil hat, hmm? CCP just closed a loophole that was letting people improve characters without paying for a sub. Yes, it was hurting their bottom line. Yes, they probably realized there would be backlash, and possibly even enough to hurt them some financially. True corporate fat-cats would NEVER risk taking a hit if there was a chance it might hurt more than not fixing the issue. I kind of take that to mean I should assume they are telling the truth about their motives, rather than as a cue to invent a conspiracy and insult people who are trying to voice their opinions. What makes you so sure that they aren't telling the absolute truth? Can you find ONE thing that makes it look like they counted on ghost training to bring people in? Can you find an instance of it being used in an ad, enticement, sales pitch, or anything other than as a fact in some guide to how the game was working at the time? Can you find any promise that, contrary to disclaimers that game play can change at any time in any way, this was something that was eternally promised to players? I can't, so I guess I still can't understand the outrage that this was done. I CAN understand some anger at how it was done, but I still think that has gotten excessive. Like Catherine, it seems, I'm forced to chalk a lot of this up as people getting ****ed they're losing what amounts to a way to cheat the system. I can't say I find your rants very credible. Shoo! (See how immature that sounds?) Yet this only affects skill training. Why doesn't it affect market orders or research points or contracts or production or anything else a character can do while not actively subscribed? The reasons given are tosh, the timing of the announcement right before the execution reeks of indifference to paying customers and all of this is, in effect, to get more money from us. Why don't they just admit they need money or are fed up of the game and want to close it? These are the only two reasons I can see for such actions.
Exxonett Caldari Invicta.	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 - [819] Yea you are money grubbing thieves. I have had up to 8 accounts feeding you cash and as the economy died so did my spending cash so I have already had to thin it out. You say this is unfair to people who work their chars? I still use and grind all of my accounts and to save money I let them expire to finish skills to save a few of my bucks. You rotten ingrates guarantee that all people with active accounts don't just log on to train and never undock I will say ok. until then Keep looking for more reasons to charge more and come up with flimsy reasons that are *****ed at best. I have 3 active accounts active at all times and you want more? You are finding new and improved ways to rip people off and jacked up time periods for gtcs. There is no question you are after the money nothing more. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=896464 http://www.midnightsquadron.com/msbb/uploads/post-23-1152919992_thumb.jpg Sig Linked. Please resize your sig to within the 400120 Pixel size limit, and enjoy some egg nog while you're at it. -ReverendM ([email protected])
Triksterism Gallente Frozen Corpse Inspection Services United Federation of Capsuleers	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 - [820] Originally by: Cosy Ceaon Originally by: Zinnn chaktil a ban would mean they'd have to be paying attention to this thread.... lets slashdot this then And slashdot we shall good sir. Has CCP even thought of the backlash prior to letting this out? I mean wont all this 'rabble rabble' turn new players away? Hrm. - Ghost Train & Snowflake
Haldane Fisher Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:21:00 - [821] Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? The player's guide just said that was what the game did. Where, exactly, was is listed as a feature? Did it say "theres a part of the game that allows you to train skills while unsubscribed, this is actually a bug and even if it takes us 5 years we will sort it out"??? No I think not.
VladSnake	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:21:00 - [822] I got a little 2 cents of my own 3 characters per account, but only 1 effectively used character. If you're really gonna f**k us around, how about at least making each of the 3 characters, be able to train THEIR OWN SKILLS. 1 skill trained PER character, no matter what the other one is training. Effectively, you train 1 character at a time, thus, if people want more, they are forced to buy a second account, and train up on there. If you're really removing ghost-training, then add the option for other characters to train up the skills (that take ages to) while being able to focus on another character, and have him act as a completely separate being, rather then having 1 brain for 3 different chars.
Zinnn	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:21:00 - [823] you can't claim it's a way to cheat the system if everyone can do it. All it comes down to is people who "loyally pay" are upset that they didn't do it too and so they tell others to quit ***ing. Now let me remind you guys that I've only "taken advantage" of this for like maybe a couple days. I don't think I"m considered even a light user of this system really, and yet I am defending this FEATURE. You could try to call it an exploit but it makes no sense that it's an exploit if CCP has let people exploit it for years. You can't say it's due to CCP's loving kindness - they don't have any, they are a business, plain and simple. The only thing they understand is cold hard cash. They will learn, and I think that's why no GM's have said anything yet - I think they are wondering what to do now. I will be **ed if this change goes through, because it's disabling my future options. Pocketbook be damned, they will lose more subscriptions this way than keeping it, I guarantee it.
INF Wonderwoman	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:21:00 - [824] Originally by: Triksterism I would like to compare this to ice cream. Ice cream is delicious, this is not. Fin. Props for the MST3K sig!!!
Gerome Doutrande Rue Morgue	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:22:00 - [825] See, that wasn't so hard now was it? Instead of serving the cheapest lies possible like CCP Fallout did, just deny the proper reason, hint at some imaginary technical problems and pretend to be "a gamer just like you". That sounds much more professional already.
Delos Harriman Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:23:00 - [826] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Delos Harriman Originally by: Catherine Frasier As to "empathy for my peers", my peers don't metagame, don't cheat and don't emoragequit over a policy change. Those who do, while they may be my fellow Eve players, are not my peers, and for them I have very, very little sympathy. To be blunt: screw 'em. Well, we've had a documented instance of CCP devs cheating (documented by CCP, no less), so why spend time defending a group that (by your own definition) you don't consider your peers, and you have no sympathy for? That was vile, reprehensible, and has long since been addressed. It's over. That means we get to stop whining about it now. Cool eh? If you don't think it was handled well enough then what exactly are you still doing here? This decision has nothing to do with that incident. Even if you have a video of some Dev tossing puppies into a woodchipper it doesn't change a single thing about this particular decision. Other than the fact that, by your own definition, you have no sympathy for EvE devs, and do not consider them your "peers". Or was your statement only directed at the people currently upset, and you don't consider any past transgressions of your personal "peer choosing code" to be valid? Don't paint with a broad brush while wearing your good clothes...sometimes it doesn't wash out.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:24:00 - [827] Dear players, do you all really think we are so stupid that we trust in that move earning us more money than it will cost us? See? ^ That would have been proper damage control
noc D	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:25:00 - [828] ... no need to telling huge LIE ccp. respect to new rules... but no lies pls. this decision gonna push illegal activities like character selling for real money and using macros. ...
Triksterism Gallente Frozen Corpse Inspection Services United Federation of Capsuleers	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:26:00 - [829] Originally by: noc D ... no need to telling huge LIE ccp. respect to new rules... but no lies pls. this decision gonna push illegal activities like character selling for real money and using macros. ... Yeah, I thought about that myself. People bailing and, since they wont be playing EvE anymore, won't care about ISK, so they'll dump their crafted characters onto eBay and the like. --------------------------------------- Feature. Bug. Hurf durf.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:26:00 - [830] Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? That was merely descriptive and certainly doesn't mean it was an intended mechanic. Did you really expect that the guide would say "Oh yeah, and we screwed up the skill training stuff with inactive accounts, please pretend we didn't." ?
SkwisgaarSkwigelf C.R.M Productions	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:26:00 - [831] Originally by: INF Wonderwoman Originally by: Triksterism I would like to compare this to ice cream. Ice cream is delicious, this is not. Fin. Props for the MST3K sig!!! indeed
Mortis Aguila Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:26:00 - [832] Edited by: Mortis Aguila on 14/10/2008 04:31:18 Originally by: Suga H "maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions." Except that they had to pay if they wanted to use the character at any point in the future. Meaning people could take breaks and not be screwed out of time or money. "There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription" Ghosting Gal BS V didn't get me anything. I didn't advance any further in the game. Training the skill didn't buy me any capital ship skills. It didn't buy me a Kronos. It didn't earn me anything, it simply saved me time, and money, and allowed me to afford to be active on a second account. When I resubbed with the first account, I didn't log on with anything new, other than the ability to train another skill (however without the ability to afford it, having not been active on that account). "Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress" They had to anyway. Now they have to pay to allow time to pass. This, exactly. Also, I would assume that a skill queue could be disabled for expired accounts, to prevent abuse. Fine, it's a bug. But, as has been said in other posts, it was used as a selling point for 5 years. Why change now? ------------------------------------------- REALITY.DAT not found. Rebooting the universe.
Haldane Fisher Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:27:00 - [833] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? That was merely descriptive and certainly doesn't mean it was an intended mechanic. Did you really expect that the guide would say "Oh yeah, and we screwed up the skill training stuff with inactive accounts, please pretend we didn't." ? That's pretty weak, even for a sycophant
Tizoca	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:27:00 - [834] Originally by: Delos Harriman Y'know, I really don't have much of an opinion about "ghost training"...I've done it, and probably would have in the future, but only when I was stopping my sub for another reason. Having said that, the change itself isn't the problem here...at least, in my opinion. As has been stated quite a few times before this, it's the way it was delivered to us. If you want your staff to have a PvP mentality to operate your PvP-centric game...good decision. But you'd better have someone at the helm of community relations that doesn't think in terms of "us vs. them"...that attitude leads to PR disaster after PR disaster. What I find interesting is this...CCP can find a doctor of economics to "consult" on the in-game economy, but apparently can't find a public relations professional to handle this kind of thing? Really? One of the first things you learn in PvP training is "no smack talk in local," and while neither of the official statements from CCP rise to the level of smack talk...well, they're closer to that than to a statement to your community regarding what you know will be a controversial change. Quoted for truth. This is the only reason for some of the outrage I'm seeing that I can understand. While I don't buy that CCP lied, especially not in the Dev Blog, I think it was pretty bad to toss out that lame forum announcement with it's terse half-truth excuse first, then only post the full reasoning later. They were begging for an uproar doing it that way. I just can't see why it's turning into tinfoil hattery and emorage.
Erimisha Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:28:00 - [835] Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? The player's guide just said that was what the game did. Where, exactly, was is listed as a feature? OMG. This is singlehandedly the DUMBEST thing I've read today on the topic. What, pray tell, do you think a FEATURE is? Would a 'list of features' not be a "list of things that the game did"?
Triksterism Gallente Frozen Corpse Inspection Services United Federation of Capsuleers	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:29:00 - [836] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? That was merely descriptive and certainly doesn't mean it was an intended mechanic. Did you really expect that the guide would say "Oh yeah, and we screwed up the skill training stuff with inactive accounts, please pretend we didn't." ? Okay, so, say it wasn't intended, which I believe it wasn't. Still, they ran with it and used it to suck in a lot of subscribers. Then, oh! All of the sudden we're going to take it away. Sorry folks! Gee whiz I hope this wasn't an inconvenience or nuttin' ! Shee yoot! --------------------------------------- Feature. Bug. Hurf durf.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:29:00 - [837] Originally by: Delos Harriman Other than the fact that, by your own definition, you have no sympathy for EvE devs, and do not consider them your "peers". No I don't consider the Devs my peers in the context of Eve, mostly because they aren't. I never said otherwise. Try to keep up with the conversation.
Chryosparce	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:29:00 - [838] Pathetic. You can't use something as a selling point and then claim its been a bug all along and still expect to maintain any credibility. I'm not bothered so much by the removal of ghost training (though it does suck) as I am by CCPs obvious lies.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:30:00 - [839] Originally by: Haldane Fisher Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? That was merely descriptive and certainly doesn't mean it was an intended mechanic. Did you really expect that the guide would say "Oh yeah, and we screwed up the skill training stuff with inactive accounts, please pretend we didn't." ? That's pretty weak, even for a sycophant Right, like just calling me names is such a powerful argument.
Haldane Fisher Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 04:31:00 - [840] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Haldane Fisher Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Haldane Fisher Maybe the part were it was listed as feature and not a bug? That was merely descriptive and certainly doesn't mean it was an intended mechanic. Did you really expect that the guide would say "Oh yeah, and we screwed up the skill training stuff with inactive accounts, please pretend we didn't." ? That's pretty weak, even for a sycophant Right, like just calling me names is such a powerful argument. If you take it as a personal insult then please do so. I can only judge you by your own words and the "insult" I used is the best way to describe someone who speaks this way.

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