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Erocitnom
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:41:00 -
[61]
sniper bubble camps might be popular
since nothing will be fast enough to mwd out of the bubble ot tackle the snipers before they cloak.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:42:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Once a falcon uncloaks you are screwed 100% of the time. Rapier?
This statement is untrue simply because of it's blanket assertion. Numbers, theories and specifics aside what is it exactly that a falcon does? Basically it removes a certain number of ships from a fight. While some people claim the number is seven (because it can have up to seven jammers) and others claim the number is 2 or 3, (after you count missed jamms and the probability they won't have an optimal number of jammers or distribution of jammers), we can safely state that a falcon will remove 3 - 4 battleships from a fight.
Because the number of ships removed from a fight by a falcon doesn't scale (i.e. it's got more or less the same potential when facing a 200 man gang versus a 5 man gang) you'll find that the actual impact a falcon has on a battle is more or less on how many ships are present on the opposing side. In a 5 man gang you can expect to lose all but 20% of your combat potential, in a 10 man gang you can expect to lose 33 - 40% of your combat potential and in a 200 man gang you are only looking to lose 1.5 - 2% of your total combat potential.
This is of course assuming that the enemy is not smart enough or simply not able to effectively counter the falcon (i.e. shooting the falcon, copious amounts of ECCM, etc).
The falcon's power as an I-Win card in a battle is directly tied to the scale. In large battles the falcons contribution MUST be significant to warrent it's presence. That same contribution applied to a small scale battle is where you see the imbalance.
There are of course ways to resolve the problem, but this isn't the place for yet another "nerf falcons" thread. I assure you, if the Dev's cared about our opinions there are plenty of nerf/boost threads for them to peruse.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:34:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 22/10/2008 21:37:39 On ships that won't suck after patch, there are quite a few: The Crusader and Malediction will probably remain a couple of favorite toys of mine for a long while. As will the Zealot, the Apocalypse, the Arbitrator and (un)surprisingly the Minmatar assault frigates. The Rapier will be quite good in spite of web nerf, and the Razu will be rather cool. And there's all the battlecruisers. The list goes on, but... those are some more significant examples.
Also, even if the Falcon's utility goes down with sheer scale, this is just another reason it increases blobbing along with the other EWAR ships. More so for cloak. The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:55:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aleus Stygian Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 22/10/2008 21:37:39 On ships that won't suck after patch, there are quite a few: The Crusader and Malediction will probably remain a couple of favorite toys of mine for a long while. As will the Zealot, the Apocalypse, the Arbitrator and (un)surprisingly the Minmatar assault frigates. The Rapier will be quite good in spite of web nerf, and the Razu will be rather cool. And there's all the battlecruisers. The list goes on, but... those are some more significant examples.
Also, even if the Falcon's utility goes down with sheer scale, this is just another reason it increases blobbing along with the other EWAR ships. More so for cloak. The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it.
Blobbing inheritly happens because there is strength and security in numbers. Falcon's don't make blobs - people who don't want to lose their ships make blobs. Certain game mechanics also favor the blob - POS warfare for example, or if you prefer, capital ships.
The blob is the natural progression of Eve. The solopwnmobiles are more or less gone, and the player base has learned that numbers and brute force are superior to any single fitting or brilliant tactic.
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Lars Lodar
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
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Posted - 2008.10.23 04:11:00 -
[65]
Originally by: kessah Bel, do u want to be with me? like be WITH me
mmmmmmm /licks
Lets have ourselves a Suicide Sandwich.
/covers self in mayo
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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2008.10.23 04:41:00 -
[66]
Two words: FoF Crows
Well, OK, that's more of an acronym and a word, but I'm sure you'll all get over it.
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Artemis Rose
Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:08:00 -
[67]
Minmatar capitals and the Tempest of course.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:14:00 -
[68]
I have a better idea here's a list of things that will suck(it's shorter):
You. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.23 06:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan I have a better idea here's a list of things that will suck(it's shorter):
You.
I already suck, so no change there.
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Rajere
Vicious Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.23 07:36:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Rajere on 23/10/2008 07:38:49
Quote: The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it.
You fail at eve. It takes 1 ship to tackle a falcon, and once tackled the falcon is screwed, there is nothing a falcon can do to escape, using the methods i'm talking about. The ships that can do this will still be able to after the nano changes. I can think of atleast 4 different ship classes which can be setup for anti-falcon work, and 3 different tactics to utilize if one of the tactics get nerfed (0 anticipation any of these tactics are going to be nerfed) -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
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Ugluuk
Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:19:00 -
[71]
It could be a good move by CCP to make ECM ships less useful..It would boost the solo pvp part of Eve that still someone enjoys and also make tactics a valid part of the game again..(other than using the falcon as the tactic)
Here is another example..yesterday we fought a good sized gang that was relying on ECM..
We had 11 ships, they had 22.. Out of the 22 they had 5 blackbirds,3 falcons and ecm drones on the pvp ships..
Due to heavy use of eccm,drones and terrible target calling by them we managed to win the fight..
ECM is a part of Eve, but it should control pvp like it does atm..Or CCP could just add another mid slot to all ships so we can fit ECCM without gimping the setup by removing web or scram..
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Ugluuk
Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:20:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 23/10/2008 07:38:49
Quote: The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it.
You fail at eve. It takes 1 ship to tackle a falcon, and once tackled the falcon is screwed, there is nothing a falcon can do to escape, using the methods i'm talking about. The ships that can do this will still be able to after the nano changes. I can think of atleast 4 different ship classes which can be setup for anti-falcon work, and 3 different tactics to utilize if one of the tactics get nerfed (0 anticipation any of these tactics are going to be nerfed)
Mmmm..You fail..Ever heard of a Falcon pilot with 1600 plate? That buys you time to get a jam on the ships that tackle..
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.24 06:27:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Cautet If falcons do ever get nerfed RR will be unstoppable. Which is why I think CCP are leaving ECM alone at the moment. It's the only realistic way to break sub-cap RR. Other than brining huge blobs (lets fact it, whatever is the fotm blobbage will always be the favoured eve tactic)
1. You do not need falcons or an RR gang to fight an RR gang.
2. Falcons being nerfed does not mean ECM gets nerfed, it means nerfing the ECM capability of a cruiser hull that can warp cloaked, which is entirely different. |
Miss KillSome
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.10.24 08:34:00 -
[74]
Must i repeat in every topic?
SOLO PVP is nearly dead. ----- TCODA corporation is recruiting! TCODA is awesome! |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:10:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ugluuk
Due to heavy use of eccm,drones and terrible target calling by them we managed to win the fight..
I bet you didn't use smartbombs ? You know, drones pop quick if smartbombed.
Caldari T1 ships: just think of new players, what useful ship can they use in real combat ?? Caracals and then beeing massacred by veteran players like you ? Moa ?? BB is the way to go for them.
Btw. you won , so what the problem ?? |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:12:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Miss KillSome Must i repeat in every topic?
SOLO PVP is nearly dead.
For you perhaps... |
Rita Zechs
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ugluuk
Mmmm..You fail..Ever heard of a Falcon pilot with 1600 plate? That buys you time to get a jam on the ships that tackle..
I'm pretty sure his tactic involves neutralizing the Falcon's cap.
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Solomon XI
Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:24:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other.
So what's still going to be any good?
(STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.)
Mal ... let's join forces ... and kill every carebear in the game. You with me? We'll just exploit the war-deck system for as long as we can before it to, is nerfed.
*** ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) Pirate Coalition (Yar?)
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:39:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Malcanis
(STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.)
That's like saying it's ok for my retribution to have 2000dps because it can't ecm jam an afk ibis before it autopilots to a gate. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change |
Snow Banshee
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Posted - 2008.10.24 09:55:00 -
[80]
rockie ships... now they can tank blastertrons |
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.10.24 10:56:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Gneeznow I hear falcons are pretty good, and will continue to be after this patch, so I hear.
NO WAY! Really???
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:46:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Miss KillSome Must i repeat in every topic?
SOLO PVP is nearly dead.
CCP is killing the last solo pvp in next patch. |
Diehard Si
UK1 Zero G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.10.24 12:55:00 -
[83]
Originally by: TigerXtrm
Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good?
Players who actually manage to adapt will be good.
Isn;t that what happened with nano?
The PVP'ers adapted, found a way and used it. The whiners whined and cried and got things changed.
But it doesn't matter, cos soon the people who know what they are doing will find a new way and adapt. The people that cried before will be happy for a while, but soon they'll be too stupid to adapt again and so end up getting killed constantly again and whine on forums.
Then a new change
rinse and repeat. |
Cautet
Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency
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Posted - 2008.10.24 13:01:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Cautet on 24/10/2008 13:05:04 Edited by: Cautet on 24/10/2008 13:03:16
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Malcanis
(STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.)
That's like saying it's ok for my retribution to have 2000dps because it can't ecm jam an afk ibis before it autopilots to a gate.
Erm, your retribution can jam an ibis. In fact it can permajam an ibis.
Edit: Retribution with it's one midslot fits one gravametric t2 or best named ECM:
Ibis Gravametric Sensor Strength of 4. Base stats on best named or T2 Gravametric ECM = 3.6. With skills this easily goes over 4.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:05:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Cautet Edited by: Cautet on 24/10/2008 13:16:36
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Malcanis
(STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.)
That's like saying it's ok for my retribution to have 2000dps because it can't ecm jam an afk ibis before it autopilots to a gate.
Erm, your retribution can jam an ibis. In fact it can permajam an ibis.
Edit: Retribution with it's one midslot fits one gravametric t2 or best named ECM:
Ibis Gravametric Sensor Strength of 4. Base stats on best named or T2 Gravametric ECM = 3.6. With skills this easily goes over 4.
I agree with the poster above in general. Whatever changes are made in Eve there will be people that can't or don't want to adapt. Those guys will suffer until they learn better, and then there will be new people to moan.
Btw if ever you want to see how much people ***** in a game where the devs try too hard to balance every class check out the wow forums. It's a ***** fest of unimaginable proportions.
That said - the reasons behind nano nerf makes sense to an extent. And also with speed changes every weapon system needs to be changed. That is common sense. And with every change there is opportunity.
Funny how you TOTALLY missed the point.
Let's make a bulletproof example instead so you can understand instead of being anal about details:
It is ok for my zealot to do 5000 dps at 250km range because it can't carry any drones.
You see the faulty logic Malcanis is using? I'm guessing you don't, or you wouldn't have posted the above. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:12:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Funny how you TOTALLY missed the point.
Let's make a bulletproof example instead so you can understand instead of being anal about details:
It is ok for my zealot to do 5000 dps at 250km range because it can't carry any drones.
You see the faulty logic Malcanis is using? I'm guessing you don't, or you wouldn't have posted the above.
It's not really a bullet proof argument. At 250km, your average sniper battleship is going to deliver about 300 odd DPS. As such, your example states your zealot is as effective as 15 sniper battleships.
A Falcon on the other hand reliably removes 3 - 4 battleships from a fight (at less than 250km on average of course) and can potentially remove (if you get an amazingly lucky set of jams) 7 battleships from the fight. So your zealot example ought to be more along the lines of 900 - 2100 DPS, and the justification would be "Well it doesn't have any tank or EWAR" |
Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:24:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Diehard Si
Originally by: TigerXtrm
Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good?
Players who actually manage to adapt will be good.
Isn;t that what happened with nano?
The PVP'ers adapted, found a way and used it. The whiners whined and cried and got things changed.
But it doesn't matter, cos soon the people who know what they are doing will find a new way and adapt. The people that cried before will be happy for a while, but soon they'll be too stupid to adapt again and so end up getting killed constantly again and whine on forums.
Then a new change
rinse and repeat.
Exactly. Until the steady abrasion of ship variety leaves us with nothing but gank'n'tank ship types A, B, C & D.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:26:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ugluuk It could be a good move by CCP to make ECM ships less useful..It would boost the solo pvp part of Eve that still someone enjoys and also make tactics a valid part of the game again..(other than using the falcon as the tactic)
Here is another example..yesterday we fought a good sized gang that was relying on ECM..
We had 11 ships, they had 22.. Out of the 22 they had 5 blackbirds,3 falcons and ecm drones on the pvp ships..
Due to heavy use of eccm,drones and terrible target calling by them we managed to win the fight..
ECM is a part of Eve, but it should control pvp like it does atm..Or CCP could just add another mid slot to all ships so we can fit ECCM without gimping the setup by removing web or scram..
Wait:
You engaged at 2:1 odds vs 8 ECM ships and still won....
...and your conclusion is that EW ships MUST be nerfed?
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Trevor Warps
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Posted - 2008.10.24 20:19:00 -
[89]
@OP:
Me ! |
Leon vanUber
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Posted - 2008.10.24 21:01:00 -
[90]
if you have the real life skill, no nerf is gonna make your internet spaceship suck. learn to adapt! It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight. |
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