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OK, so what *wont* suck after the patch?

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Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 07:53:00 - [1] It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:00:00 - [2] Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Anything Caldari, all the HICs, most Amarr stuff... oh, and F A L C O N S Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:05:00 - [3] RL is getting a boost.
Taradis Amarr The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:05:00 - [4] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Anything Caldari, all the HICs, most Amarr stuff... oh, and F A L C O N S
Taradis Amarr The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Lazuran RL is getting a boost. NOOOOOO!!!!!! not RL
Neyro7830 Gallente Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:07:00 - [6] Originally by: Taradis Originally by: Lazuran RL is getting a boost. NOOOOOO!!!!!! not RL nerf RL ------------------------------------------------ I am not responsible for the above post, because apparently, my cat has learned how to type. :3
TigerXtrm BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good? Players who actually manage to adapt will be good.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Anything Caldari, all the HICs, most Amarr stuff... oh, and F A L C O N S Hate...you...sooooooo...much
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:25:00 - [9] Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good? Players who actually manage to adapt will be good. I'm boned...
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:28:00 - [10] RR bs gangs will be the next FOTM, you heard it here first Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Sokratesz RR bs gangs will be the next FOTM, you heard it here first No h4xplo1t remote-rep resist-buffered remote tracking-boosted commandship gangs...?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:34:00 - [12] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Anything Caldari, all the HICs, most Amarr stuff... oh, and F A L C O N S Hate...you...sooooooo...much <3 Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.10.22 08:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Anything Caldari, all the HICs, most Amarr stuff... oh, and F A L C O N S Actually I would go so far as to say: Anything using guided missiles (sorry amarr), big ass laser ships (yay amarr) and remote armour repping gangs (not shields because you need ECCM for all the . . . . . . . ) And of course people who actually play the game iso using whatever is OP atm.. as always All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
sAyArrrr Shadows INC	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:06:00 - [14] Edited by: sAyArrrr on 22/10/2008 09:06:29 Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good? Players who actually manage to adapt will be good. In other words, if you dont have TII Ham/Torp/Pulse trained yet, is going to suck for you bigtime after he patch. Thanks ccp for raping metagaming. Edit: ****? Raping?
SunTzuCsu Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:09:00 - [15] Shuttles will be, or so I hear.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:32:00 - [16] Originally by: Sokratesz RR bs gangs will be the next FOTM, you heard it here first First? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:41:00 - [17] AS's. Nothing will suck. You need to adapt. If you can't do that...you suck.
Obyrith	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:42:00 - [18] Edited by: Obyrith on 22/10/2008 09:43:06 To paraphrase the OP: The weather tomorrow will be sunny. What will the weather be like tomorrow? (STFU about the weather being cloudy. Everyone knows the weather is sometimes cloudy. If you mention the weather being cloudy you can go **** yourself!!)
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:43:00 - [19] This is the Eve NGE. Last I heard CCP had made John Smedley their lead game designer.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.22 09:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Sokratesz RR bs gangs will be the next FOTM, you heard it here first First? Notice the ''. I do however predict that rr will be the next topic of whining after nos, nano, falcons etc. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
Donna Divine Gilded Goose Brokerage	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:05:00 - [21] Edited by: Donna Divine on 22/10/2008 10:06:20 The next fotm is going to be sig radius tank (on small ships). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gilded Goose Brokerages Trading to order.
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:07:00 - [22] If falcons do ever get nerfed RR will be unstoppable. Which is why I think CCP are leaving ECM alone at the moment. It's the only realistic way to break sub-cap RR. Other than brining huge blobs (lets fact it, whatever is the fotm blobbage will always be the favoured eve tactic)
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Donna Divine Edited by: Donna Divine on 22/10/2008 10:06:20 The next fotm is going to be sig radius tank (on small ships). Gotta get collecting them angel cartel LPs then _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Donna Divine Edited by: Donna Divine on 22/10/2008 10:06:20 The next fotm is going to be sig radius tank (on small ships). Full nomad setup on a hyena/Ceptor ftw- Sig***s cometh?
kessah Suicidal Tendencies Ltd	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:23:00 - [25] Bel, do u want to be with me? like be WITH me mmmmmmm /licks
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Conviction.	Posted - 2008.10.22 10:27:00 - [26] My ashimmu will still be fun. ________ My views represent the views of my corp, deal with it.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Cautet If falcons do ever get nerfed RR will be unstoppable. Which is why I think CCP are leaving ECM alone at the moment. It's the only realistic way to break sub-cap RR. Fight them with a RR gang? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Nyu Shin	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:34:00 - [28] Edited by: Nyu Shin on 22/10/2008 11:34:51 If everything sucks after patch, then everything will be well balanced then.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:49:00 - [29] its a cycle, people will find new ways to pwn other people for years, after years, ccp will make changes again, and so on and so on. the problem isnt the nerfing, the problem is that they wait godamn years before they do it. they have something thats overpowered but instead of addressing it quickly, years pass and then they address it, and wonder why everyone is going wtf... one such case is the nos nerf. ------ RECON is recruiting
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:17:00 - [30] 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs)
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Taradis Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Anything Caldari, all the HICs, most Amarr stuff... oh, and F A L C O N S I heard that caldari force recons might be doing well post patch Meh I'm not gonna complain too much about them, I probaly should be flying them seeing as I have good skills in recons and in ew and caldari cruiser 5.... I just prefer my minmatar ships. as for rr bs gangs, i sooooooo wanna drop a smart bomb/eccm burst typhoon right in the middle of one of those gangs. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:36:00 - [32] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 22/10/2008 12:39:24 Blaming the falcons for blobs is a bit overdone Ugluuk, don¦t you think ? Falcons are quite counterable. I should know, I¦ve died in one on more then one occasion. All it needs is one or two ships setup to counter them, and you¦ll take out the falcons like they¦re friggin ibises. [center] Old blog
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:48:00 - [33] Edited by: Cautet on 22/10/2008 12:50:07 Originally by: Ugluuk 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs) Can't see them actually getting many kills vs a ten man gang or indeed any gang. They would have been better off with 1/2 falcons and 2/3 logistics ships and/or extra battleships. If they are fighting on gates most/all of the enemy can deagress and jump through. If on stations then most/all enemies could redock. Not many situations where 5 falcons can help more than a balanced gang. edit: Why megas? And if megas then why not rapiers or hugins to hold people in place so megas can get in range? If long range they would need a dedicated tackler also. Seems a very unbalanced gang they had there.
Comae Berenices The Trillion ISK Project	Posted - 2008.10.22 12:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Sokratesz RR bs gangs will be the next FOTM, you heard it here first This! And it's great for the whole game. And there will be lots of damps/jams too.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Ugluuk 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs) Yeah reminds me of engaging 4 People under sentry aggro last time in my Hype, was quite fun untill her Falcon decloaked. Fit a ECCM and overlaod? I did but didn¦t helped in any way. So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:15:00 - [36] Originally by: The Djego So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. Didn't you get the memo from the 'falcon is fine' brigade? If you don't have 3 sniper BS and fly with 10 people minimum you are not flying your ship properly. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:18:00 - [37] Gallente AF's, wolf, rupture, vexor, maller, carcal and moa, all BC's, all Bs's except blasters will need to double web opponents to dream of keeping them pinned CS's, HIC's. So yeah, anything with a tank.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:20:00 - [38] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Djego So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. Didn't you get the memo from the 'falcon is fine' brigade? If you don't have 3 sniper BS and fly with 10 people minimum you are not flying your ship properly. It has very little to do with the falcon.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Djego So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. Didn't you get the memo from the 'falcon is fine' brigade? If you don't have 3 sniper BS and fly with 10 people minimum you are not flying your ship properly. I allways forget about this, damn. Solo PVP? Damn what was I thinking, im so stupid sometimes it isn¦t even funny to me. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:22:00 - [40] Edited by: Esmenet on 22/10/2008 13:22:27 Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good? Amarr and caldari(depending on the new missile formula) ships, preferably BC, recons or BS.
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:36:00 - [41] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Ugluuk 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs) Yeah reminds me of engaging 4 People under sentry aggro last time in my Hype, was quite fun untill her Falcon decloaked. Fit a ECCM and overlaod? I did but didn¦t helped in any way. So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. So..... you fought a group of 5 whilst under sentry fire and you lost.....and your conclusion is that falcons need to be nerfed....hmmm. Not exactly the conclusion I would have come to in that circumstance. Shame they didn't bring 5 falcons instead of 4 damage dealers and 1 falcon. You could have tanked them forever then.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:41:00 - [42] Edited by: The Djego on 22/10/2008 13:42:57 Originally by: Cautet Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Ugluuk 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs) Yeah reminds me of engaging 4 People under sentry aggro last time in my Hype, was quite fun untill her Falcon decloaked. Fit a ECCM and overlaod? I did but didn¦t helped in any way. So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. So..... you fought a group of 5 whilst under sentry fire and you lost.....and your conclusion is that falcons need to be nerfed....hmmm. Not exactly the conclusion I would have come to in that circumstance. Shame they didn't bring 5 falcons instead of 4 damage dealers and 1 falcon. You could have tanked them forever then. Myrmidon, Harbinger, Thorax, Aribrator, Sentrys vs Hype, why not? Was well worth a try, and I didn¦t dualrepp/heavytank the Hype, realy was a fun fight instead of a easy gank, before the Falcon kicked in... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:59:00 - [43] Originally by: Cautet Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Ugluuk 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs) Yeah reminds me of engaging 4 People under sentry aggro last time in my Hype, was quite fun untill her Falcon decloaked. Fit a ECCM and overlaod? I did but didn¦t helped in any way. So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. So..... you fought a group of 5 whilst under sentry fire and you lost.....and your conclusion is that falcons need to be nerfed....hmmm. Not exactly the conclusion I would have come to in that circumstance. Shame they didn't bring 5 falcons instead of 4 damage dealers and 1 falcon. You could have tanked them forever then. NO what he was saying is he was COMPETING in that fight until a falcon uncloaked. It's the only ship that can claim that stat. Once a falcon uncloaks you are screwed 100% of the time. Rapier? You can nab those, if they uncloak too close. Curse? Boosters. Arazu? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.22 14:09:00 - [44] With the curse even with your boosters you are no longer competing once he gets his neuts on you. Plus he is tracking disrupting and doing damage. With a rapier - you are not competing in a blaster ship once a rapier gets hold of you. Plus he is doing damage. With another dps ship - you might get lucky and kill something, I guess - but that relys on them making a mistake - and that falcon might accidentaly warp to you at 0. With an arazu - well if you are blaster fitted then it still gets the long distance warp disrupt which means the tacklers can back off slightly and risk less. I can see how the falcon is frustrating to fight against. That alone does not make a ship overpowered. I can also see how many ships in eve are frustrating to fight against, and that cloaked ships are amongst the most frustrating. Just think how frustrated you would be if a guardian came in and started repping your targets - you are just as much out of the fight then.
Foruman Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.22 14:14:00 - [45] Originally by: Cautet With the curse even with your boosters you are no longer competing once he gets his neuts on you. Plus he is tracking disrupting and doing damage. With a rapier - you are not competing in a blaster ship once a rapier gets hold of you. Plus he is doing damage. With another dps ship - you might get lucky and kill something, I guess - but that relys on them making a mistake - and that falcon might accidentaly warp to you at 0. With an arazu - well if you are blaster fitted then it still gets the long distance warp disrupt which means the tacklers can back off slightly and risk less. I can see how the falcon is frustrating to fight against. That alone does not make a ship overpowered. I can also see how many ships in eve are frustrating to fight against, and that cloaked ships are amongst the most frustrating. Just think how frustrated you would be if a guardian came in and started repping your targets - you are just as much out of the fight then. you are either amazingly ignorant or just a troll who fly falcons Me>You
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.22 14:21:00 - [46] Edited by: Cautet on 22/10/2008 14:24:33 Originally by: Foruman Originally by: Cautet With the curse even with your boosters you are no longer competing once he gets his neuts on you. Plus he is tracking disrupting and doing damage. With a rapier - you are not competing in a blaster ship once a rapier gets hold of you. Plus he is doing damage. With another dps ship - you might get lucky and kill something, I guess - but that relys on them making a mistake - and that falcon might accidentaly warp to you at 0. With an arazu - well if you are blaster fitted then it still gets the long distance warp disrupt which means the tacklers can back off slightly and risk less. I can see how the falcon is frustrating to fight against. That alone does not make a ship overpowered. I can also see how many ships in eve are frustrating to fight against, and that cloaked ships are amongst the most frustrating. Just think how frustrated you would be if a guardian came in and started repping your targets - you are just as much out of the fight then. you are either amazingly ignorant or just a troll who fly falcons I promised myself I wouldn't post in another falcon thread because I get dragged into answering flames from trolls. Oh well last post. Anyway let me explain it to you: He is under sentry fire in a blaster ship. Hence he can't use drones. Hence he can't even do damage to a rapier or a curse or arazu, all of which can stay out of his range. He might be using a heavy neut which makes things more interesting although he wouldn't be able to do anything vs the arazu. And some of the ships might be using ecm drones (esp. thorax). However hes not going to beat 5 ships under sentry gun fire. And the game shouldn't be balanced around fighting 5 ships under sentry fire.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.22 15:44:00 - [47] Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver its a cycle, people will find new ways to pwn other people for years, after years, ccp will make changes again, and so on and so on. the problem isnt the nerfing, the problem is that they wait godamn years before they do it. they have something thats overpowered but instead of addressing it quickly, years pass and then they address it, and wonder why everyone is going wtf... one such case is the nos nerf. Like how this is the 3rd speed nerf? __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:24:00 - [48] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Djego So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. Didn't you get the memo from the 'falcon is fine' brigade? If you don't have 3 sniper BS and fly with 10 people minimum you are not flying your ship properly. I allways forget about this, damn. Solo PVP? Damn what was I thinking, im so stupid sometimes it isn¦t even funny to me. If you're fighting a falcon you've already been handed a losing hand because you're fighting TWO ships (at least). This isn't a defense of the Falcon - I recognize what it is and all that. It's just that decrying the falcon as the death of solo pvp is silly. Hell, falcons give pilots the balls to engage at a mere 2:1 odds. Normally those people wouldn't go into a fight without an entire fleet.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:36:00 - [49] Edited by: Malcanis on 22/10/2008 17:38:20 Edited by: Malcanis on 22/10/2008 17:35:55 Originally by: Ugluuk 4 days ago i met a gang consisting of 3 Megathron and 5 falcons.. I asked them why they used so much ecm and they said: Why not, we can attack 10 bs this way and kill them easily as we smartbomb the drones..Smart setup indeed but damn boring for the enemy.. That is ofc an extreme example but Falcon has become the new WCS..A correctly fitted Falcon makes 4-5 BS struggle to hold 2 ships scrambled.. I also believe that Falcon is a reason to the insane blobbing in Eve these days..(they probably have a falcon or 2 guys, lets bring another 5 bs) To my way of thinking, bringing more than 1 falcon per 4-5 gang members is simply a waste of a pilot. At the end of the day, someone has to tackle, tank and do DPS. That gang would have been much much better dropping 3 falcons for a HIC, A gangboosting commandship or a rapier/huginn, and maybe an ECCM sniper-raven/cerb/apoc. I mean sure with 5 falcons, not many gangs their size are gonna kill them, but with megathrons for tackling, who are they going to kill? And even now tbh, I'm still used to being the only ECM ship in gang. The gang you encountered is still very much the exception. Most of the ones I encounter have about 1 ECM ship per 6-10 members, which I reckon is about right. PS What was your gang in? EDIT: You tainted my "falcon free" thread you scumbag!
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: The Djego So yeah Falcons will still be ok, especialy in killing the last solo/small Gang PVP in Low Sec. Didn't you get the memo from the 'falcon is fine' brigade? If you don't have 3 sniper BS and fly with 10 people minimum you are not flying your ship properly. I allways forget about this, damn. Solo PVP? Damn what was I thinking, im so stupid sometimes it isn¦t even funny to me. If you're fighting a falcon you've already been handed a losing hand because you're fighting TWO ships (at least). This isn't a defense of the Falcon - I recognize what it is and all that. It's just that decrying the falcon as the death of solo pvp is silly. Hell, falcons give pilots the balls to engage at a mere 2:1 odds. Normally those people wouldn't go into a fight without an entire fleet. Wow Falcons and Balls in one sentence. The problem is many people will not engage you if they are not shure they can dock, jump thrue a gate, win for shure, can shut you down compleetly or simply run(Nano, WCs). In short, many people don¦t actualy have balls to start fights that might be very close or even don¦t look winalbe on the first view. I personaly also would not start a fight where Im shure I don¦t have a chance to win, but I start fights that are not compleetly in my favour and I don¦t know in the start I will win for shure. This are the kind of fights that are the most fun because they are challanging and this kind of PVP requires Balls. If this is fixed by having a Falcon ready or a overwhelming fleet there are still no balls in her pants in the end, just the confidence they will win without to mutch/no looses. Falcons don¦t give people balls, thats it you got some or you don¦t. I even got jammed by a Falcon in a 7 vs 1(Mega vs mutliply BCs, Hics and Recons) as it started to don¦t run in her favour. Do I have to say more about "Balls" and Falcons? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Malcanis OK, so what wont suck after the patch? Dude, I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title: Your girl? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:18:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Malcanis OK, so what wont suck after the patch? Dude, I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title: Your girl? -Liang Damn it somebody won the Thread right here right now. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:32:00 - [53] Originally by: Liang Nuren Dude, I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title: Your girl? -Liang Couldn't resist, sorry My wife just dropped a phrase that nearly knocked me out of my chair "See what Eve does to people? They start thinking of girls as of "what""
Ambrosious Martin Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:32:00 - [54] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Malcanis OK, so what wont suck after the patch? Dude, I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title: Your girl? -Liang Liang claims another victory!!!!!
Efrim Black	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:34:00 - [55] Originally by: The Djego Wow Falcons and Balls in one sentence. The problem is many people will not engage you if they are not shure they can dock, jump thrue a gate, win for shure, can shut you down compleetly or simply run(Nano, WCs). In short, many people don¦t actualy have balls to start fights that might be very close or even don¦t look winalbe on the first view. I personaly also would not start a fight where Im shure I don¦t have a chance to win, but I start fights that are not compleetly in my favour and I don¦t know in the start I will win for shure. This are the kind of fights that are the most fun because they are challanging and this kind of PVP requires Balls. If this is fixed by having a Falcon ready or a overwhelming fleet there are still no balls in her pants in the end, just the confidence they will win without to mutch/no looses. Falcons don¦t give people balls, thats it you got some or you don¦t. I even got jammed by a Falcon in a 7 vs 1(Mega vs mutliply BCs, Hics and Recons) as it started to don¦t run in her favour. Do I have to say more about "Balls" and Falcons? The first part of your post is a summary of The Art of War. :D I agree, Falcons are just whats effective at the moment... people always complain when something gets nerfed, and it's astonishing how copy/paste their arguments are. You can take a lot of the nano-whine threads and replace the words with NOS, and it just looks like a year old thread. Adapt. Adapt. Adapt.
ZW Dewitt	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:38:00 - [56] Rifters.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:43:00 - [57] AB + scram raptor. Seriously. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.22 18:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Malcanis OK, so what wont suck after the patch? Dude, I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title: Your girl? -Liang owned
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.22 19:42:00 - [59] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Malcanis OK, so what wont suck after the patch? Dude, I have to admit, the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title: Your girl? -Liang owned lol but seriously falcons wont suck after patch, and you can take that to the bank ^^ ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.10.22 20:07:00 - [60] I hear falcons are pretty good, and will continue to be after this patch, so I hear.
Erocitnom	Posted - 2008.10.22 20:41:00 - [61] sniper bubble camps might be popular since nothing will be fast enough to mwd out of the bubble ot tackle the snipers before they cloak.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.22 20:42:00 - [62] Originally by: Megan Maynard Once a falcon uncloaks you are screwed 100% of the time. Rapier? This statement is untrue simply because of it's blanket assertion. Numbers, theories and specifics aside what is it exactly that a falcon does? Basically it removes a certain number of ships from a fight. While some people claim the number is seven (because it can have up to seven jammers) and others claim the number is 2 or 3, (after you count missed jamms and the probability they won't have an optimal number of jammers or distribution of jammers), we can safely state that a falcon will remove 3 - 4 battleships from a fight. Because the number of ships removed from a fight by a falcon doesn't scale (i.e. it's got more or less the same potential when facing a 200 man gang versus a 5 man gang) you'll find that the actual impact a falcon has on a battle is more or less on how many ships are present on the opposing side. In a 5 man gang you can expect to lose all but 20% of your combat potential, in a 10 man gang you can expect to lose 33 - 40% of your combat potential and in a 200 man gang you are only looking to lose 1.5 - 2% of your total combat potential. This is of course assuming that the enemy is not smart enough or simply not able to effectively counter the falcon (i.e. shooting the falcon, copious amounts of ECCM, etc). The falcon's power as an I-Win card in a battle is directly tied to the scale. In large battles the falcons contribution MUST be significant to warrent it's presence. That same contribution applied to a small scale battle is where you see the imbalance. There are of course ways to resolve the problem, but this isn't the place for yet another "nerf falcons" thread. I assure you, if the Dev's cared about our opinions there are plenty of nerf/boost threads for them to peruse.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.22 21:34:00 - [63] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 22/10/2008 21:37:39 On ships that won't suck after patch, there are quite a few: The Crusader and Malediction will probably remain a couple of favorite toys of mine for a long while. As will the Zealot, the Apocalypse, the Arbitrator and (un)surprisingly the Minmatar assault frigates. The Rapier will be quite good in spite of web nerf, and the Razu will be rather cool. And there's all the battlecruisers. The list goes on, but... those are some more significant examples. Also, even if the Falcon's utility goes down with sheer scale, this is just another reason it increases blobbing along with the other EWAR ships. More so for cloak. The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.22 21:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 22/10/2008 21:37:39 On ships that won't suck after patch, there are quite a few: The Crusader and Malediction will probably remain a couple of favorite toys of mine for a long while. As will the Zealot, the Apocalypse, the Arbitrator and (un)surprisingly the Minmatar assault frigates. The Rapier will be quite good in spite of web nerf, and the Razu will be rather cool. And there's all the battlecruisers. The list goes on, but... those are some more significant examples. Also, even if the Falcon's utility goes down with sheer scale, this is just another reason it increases blobbing along with the other EWAR ships. More so for cloak. The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it. Blobbing inheritly happens because there is strength and security in numbers. Falcon's don't make blobs - people who don't want to lose their ships make blobs. Certain game mechanics also favor the blob - POS warfare for example, or if you prefer, capital ships. The blob is the natural progression of Eve. The solopwnmobiles are more or less gone, and the player base has learned that numbers and brute force are superior to any single fitting or brilliant tactic.
Lars Lodar Suicidal Tendencies Ltd	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:11:00 - [65] Originally by: kessah Bel, do u want to be with me? like be WITH me mmmmmmm /licks Lets have ourselves a Suicide Sandwich. /covers self in mayo
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2008.10.23 04:41:00 - [66] Two words: FoF Crows Well, OK, that's more of an acronym and a word, but I'm sure you'll all get over it.
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.23 05:08:00 - [67] Minmatar capitals and the Tempest of course. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.10.23 05:14:00 - [68] I have a better idea here's a list of things that will suck(it's shorter): You. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 06:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Kadoes Khan I have a better idea here's a list of things that will suck(it's shorter): You. I already suck, so no change there.
Rajere Vicious Inc	Posted - 2008.10.23 07:36:00 - [70] Edited by: Rajere on 23/10/2008 07:38:49 Quote: The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it. You fail at eve. It takes 1 ship to tackle a falcon, and once tackled the falcon is screwed, there is nothing a falcon can do to escape, using the methods i'm talking about. The ships that can do this will still be able to after the nano changes. I can think of atleast 4 different ship classes which can be setup for anti-falcon work, and 3 different tactics to utilize if one of the tactics get nerfed (0 anticipation any of these tactics are going to be nerfed) -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.24 06:19:00 - [71] It could be a good move by CCP to make ECM ships less useful..It would boost the solo pvp part of Eve that still someone enjoys and also make tactics a valid part of the game again..(other than using the falcon as the tactic) Here is another example..yesterday we fought a good sized gang that was relying on ECM.. We had 11 ships, they had 22.. Out of the 22 they had 5 blackbirds,3 falcons and ecm drones on the pvp ships.. Due to heavy use of eccm,drones and terrible target calling by them we managed to win the fight.. ECM is a part of Eve, but it should control pvp like it does atm..Or CCP could just add another mid slot to all ships so we can fit ECCM without gimping the setup by removing web or scram..
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.24 06:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 23/10/2008 07:38:49 Quote: The more irritating aspect though is that you just can't tackle a Falcon with less than about four ships, and you certainly won't be able to counter it through anything but battleship-level sniper***gotry past the speed nerf. It just locks down any tackler and slips away. It gets away a lot easier than any other Recon ship, and this is why all the damn cowards out there probably gravitate toward it. You fail at eve. It takes 1 ship to tackle a falcon, and once tackled the falcon is screwed, there is nothing a falcon can do to escape, using the methods i'm talking about. The ships that can do this will still be able to after the nano changes. I can think of atleast 4 different ship classes which can be setup for anti-falcon work, and 3 different tactics to utilize if one of the tactics get nerfed (0 anticipation any of these tactics are going to be nerfed) Mmmm..You fail..Ever heard of a Falcon pilot with 1600 plate? That buys you time to get a jam on the ships that tackle..
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.24 06:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Cautet If falcons do ever get nerfed RR will be unstoppable. Which is why I think CCP are leaving ECM alone at the moment. It's the only realistic way to break sub-cap RR. Other than brining huge blobs (lets fact it, whatever is the fotm blobbage will always be the favoured eve tactic) 1. You do not need falcons or an RR gang to fight an RR gang. 2. Falcons being nerfed does not mean ECM gets nerfed, it means nerfing the ECM capability of a cruiser hull that can warp cloaked, which is entirely different.
Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.24 08:34:00 - [74] Must i repeat in every topic? SOLO PVP is nearly dead. ----- TCODA corporation is recruiting! TCODA is awesome!
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Ugluuk Due to heavy use of eccm,drones and terrible target calling by them we managed to win the fight.. I bet you didn't use smartbombs ? You know, drones pop quick if smartbombed. Caldari T1 ships: just think of new players, what useful ship can they use in real combat ?? Caracals and then beeing massacred by veteran players like you ? Moa ?? BB is the way to go for them. Btw. you won , so what the problem ??
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:12:00 - [76] Originally by: Miss KillSome Must i repeat in every topic? SOLO PVP is nearly dead. For you perhaps...
Rita Zechs	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:18:00 - [77] Originally by: Ugluuk Mmmm..You fail..Ever heard of a Falcon pilot with 1600 plate? That buys you time to get a jam on the ships that tackle.. I'm pretty sure his tactic involves neutralizing the Falcon's cap.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:24:00 - [78] Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Mal ... let's join forces ... and kill every carebear in the game. You with me? We'll just exploit the war-deck system for as long as we can before it to, is nerfed. *** ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO) Pirate Coalition (Yar?)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Malcanis (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) That's like saying it's ok for my retribution to have 2000dps because it can't ecm jam an afk ibis before it autopilots to a gate. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change
Snow Banshee	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:55:00 - [80] rockie ships... now they can tank blastertrons
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2008.10.24 10:56:00 - [81] Originally by: Gneeznow I hear falcons are pretty good, and will continue to be after this patch, so I hear. NO WAY! Really???
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:46:00 - [82] Originally by: Miss KillSome Must i repeat in every topic? SOLO PVP is nearly dead. CCP is killing the last solo pvp in next patch.
Diehard Si UK1 Zero G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:55:00 - [83] Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good? Players who actually manage to adapt will be good. Isn;t that what happened with nano? The PVP'ers adapted, found a way and used it. The whiners whined and cried and got things changed. But it doesn't matter, cos soon the people who know what they are doing will find a new way and adapt. The people that cried before will be happy for a while, but soon they'll be too stupid to adapt again and so end up getting killed constantly again and whine on forums. Then a new change rinse and repeat.
Cautet Celestial Apocalypse Resurgency	Posted - 2008.10.24 13:01:00 - [84] Edited by: Cautet on 24/10/2008 13:05:04 Edited by: Cautet on 24/10/2008 13:03:16 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Malcanis (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) That's like saying it's ok for my retribution to have 2000dps because it can't ecm jam an afk ibis before it autopilots to a gate. Erm, your retribution can jam an ibis. In fact it can permajam an ibis. Edit: Retribution with it's one midslot fits one gravametric t2 or best named ECM: Ibis Gravametric Sensor Strength of 4. Base stats on best named or T2 Gravametric ECM = 3.6. With skills this easily goes over 4.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.24 19:05:00 - [85] Originally by: Cautet Edited by: Cautet on 24/10/2008 13:16:36 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Malcanis (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) That's like saying it's ok for my retribution to have 2000dps because it can't ecm jam an afk ibis before it autopilots to a gate. Erm, your retribution can jam an ibis. In fact it can permajam an ibis. Edit: Retribution with it's one midslot fits one gravametric t2 or best named ECM: Ibis Gravametric Sensor Strength of 4. Base stats on best named or T2 Gravametric ECM = 3.6. With skills this easily goes over 4. I agree with the poster above in general. Whatever changes are made in Eve there will be people that can't or don't want to adapt. Those guys will suffer until they learn better, and then there will be new people to moan. Btw if ever you want to see how much people *** in a game where the devs try too hard to balance every class check out the wow forums. It's a *** fest of unimaginable proportions. That said - the reasons behind nano nerf makes sense to an extent. And also with speed changes every weapon system needs to be changed. That is common sense. And with every change there is opportunity. Funny how you TOTALLY missed the point. Let's make a bulletproof example instead so you can understand instead of being anal about details: It is ok for my zealot to do 5000 dps at 250km range because it can't carry any drones. You see the faulty logic Malcanis is using? I'm guessing you don't, or you wouldn't have posted the above.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.24 19:12:00 - [86] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Funny how you TOTALLY missed the point. Let's make a bulletproof example instead so you can understand instead of being anal about details: It is ok for my zealot to do 5000 dps at 250km range because it can't carry any drones. You see the faulty logic Malcanis is using? I'm guessing you don't, or you wouldn't have posted the above. It's not really a bullet proof argument. At 250km, your average sniper battleship is going to deliver about 300 odd DPS. As such, your example states your zealot is as effective as 15 sniper battleships. A Falcon on the other hand reliably removes 3 - 4 battleships from a fight (at less than 250km on average of course) and can potentially remove (if you get an amazingly lucky set of jams) 7 battleships from the fight. So your zealot example ought to be more along the lines of 900 - 2100 DPS, and the justification would be "Well it doesn't have any tank or EWAR"
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.24 19:24:00 - [87] Originally by: Diehard Si Originally by: TigerXtrm Originally by: Malcanis So what's still going to be any good? Players who actually manage to adapt will be good. Isn;t that what happened with nano? The PVP'ers adapted, found a way and used it. The whiners whined and cried and got things changed. But it doesn't matter, cos soon the people who know what they are doing will find a new way and adapt. The people that cried before will be happy for a while, but soon they'll be too stupid to adapt again and so end up getting killed constantly again and whine on forums. Then a new change rinse and repeat. Exactly. Until the steady abrasion of ship variety leaves us with nothing but gank'n'tank ship types A, B, C & D.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.24 19:26:00 - [88] Originally by: Ugluuk It could be a good move by CCP to make ECM ships less useful..It would boost the solo pvp part of Eve that still someone enjoys and also make tactics a valid part of the game again..(other than using the falcon as the tactic) Here is another example..yesterday we fought a good sized gang that was relying on ECM.. We had 11 ships, they had 22.. Out of the 22 they had 5 blackbirds,3 falcons and ecm drones on the pvp ships.. Due to heavy use of eccm,drones and terrible target calling by them we managed to win the fight.. ECM is a part of Eve, but it should control pvp like it does atm..Or CCP could just add another mid slot to all ships so we can fit ECCM without gimping the setup by removing web or scram.. Wait: You engaged at 2:1 odds vs 8 ECM ships and still won.... ...and your conclusion is that EW ships MUST be nerfed?
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.24 20:19:00 - [89] @OP: Me !
Leon vanUber	Posted - 2008.10.24 21:01:00 - [90] if you have the real life skill, no nerf is gonna make your internet spaceship suck. learn to adapt! It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight.
Rob Z0mbie	Posted - 2008.10.24 21:06:00 - [91] Originally by: Sokratesz RR bs gangs will be the next FOTM, you heard it here first will never be FOTM while falcons and even griffins are around \(o.0)/
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.24 21:56:00 - [92] RR spidertanking BS vs Falcons, ecm, Lock bombs from a suicidal SB (suicidal after patch?) or even a ECM burst Scorp
4nic8	Posted - 2008.10.24 21:57:00 - [93] Vacuum Cleaners, they are getting nerfed iirc :(
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.10.24 22:37:00 - [94] Seriously, my corp is all ready stocking up on AF's, we all hate seeing CCP do this, but we are adapting and are still going to pwn face come patch time.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.24 22:41:00 - [95] Originally by: Megan Maynard Seriously, my corp is all ready stocking up on AF's, we all hate seeing CCP do this, but we are adapting and are still going to pwn face come patch time. The real question is if you guys believe it enough for all of you to be training AF 5. ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.24 22:53:00 - [96] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Megan Maynard Seriously, my corp is all ready stocking up on AF's, we all hate seeing CCP do this, but we are adapting and are still going to pwn face come patch time. The real question is if you guys believe it enough for all of you to be training AF 5. ;-) -Liang It's only a 3-week bet. And even if it's wrong, they have to buff AF eventually.... right?
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.25 01:07:00 - [97] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/10/2008 01:08:15 Originally by: Derek Sigres A Falcon on the other hand reliably removes 3 - 4 battleships from a fight (at less than 250km on average of course) and can potentially remove (if you get an amazingly lucky set of jams) 7 battleships from the fight. So your zealot example ought to be more along the lines of 900 - 2100 DPS, and the justification would be "Well it doesn't have any tank or EWAR" Zealot/Munnin/Cerb/Diemost need a buff so they can do 900 DPS at 250km minimum, for the sake of balance. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Megan Maynard Seriously, my corp is all ready stocking up on AF's, we all hate seeing CCP do this, but we are adapting and are still going to pwn face come patch time. The real question is if you guys believe it enough for all of you to be training AF 5. ;-) -Liang I trained AF V a month and something ago in preparation for the patch, because I fear it might be the one solo capable ship left... depends how far do they go really. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.25 01:40:00 - [98] my deimos does do that dps from 250(m)
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2008.10.25 14:22:00 - [99] Quote: Mmmm..You fail..Ever heard of a Falcon pilot with 1600 plate? That buys you time to get a jam on the ships that tackle.. you fail at reading. Suffice to say, the falcon could fit however many plates he wants, t2 trimarks, have a jam strength of over 9000, and still could not jam the tackler and warp off before the falcon died. If I'm not exactly forthcoming with the details of these tactics, well, I am a falcon alt myself. Pretty easy to figure out atleast one of the tactics i'm referring to, and most/all if you sat down and thought about it for a while, tbh. Quote: I'm pretty sure his tactic involves neutralizing the Falcon's cap. no not really. One tactic utilizes neuts but not in the way you're thinking (it's not necessary to drain falcons cap to keep him tackled, but it's helpful)
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.10.25 14:56:00 - [100] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/10/2008 01:08:15 Originally by: Derek Sigres A Falcon on the other hand reliably removes 3 - 4 battleships from a fight (at less than 250km on average of course) and can potentially remove (if you get an amazingly lucky set of jams) 7 battleships from the fight. So your zealot example ought to be more along the lines of 900 - 2100 DPS, and the justification would be "Well it doesn't have any tank or EWAR" Zealot/Munnin/Cerb/Diemost need a buff so they can do 900 DPS at 250km minimum, for the sake of balance. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Megan Maynard Seriously, my corp is all ready stocking up on AF's, we all hate seeing CCP do this, but we are adapting and are still going to pwn face come patch time. The real question is if you guys believe it enough for all of you to be training AF 5. ;-) -Liang I trained AF V a month and something ago in preparation for the patch, because I fear it might be the one solo capable ship left... depends how far do they go really. Been a staunch supporter of the Minmatar, one of my alts has minmatar frigate, destroyer, interdictor and every T2 Frigate to lvl5. All weapon systems used by minmatar frigs have also been maxed so if frigs and desties do gain a benefit then all that is left is to cry about CCP nerfing minmatar at the same time as buffing small ships.
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.10.25 16:52:00 - [101] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 25/10/2008 16:52:39 With the amount of ppl crying over changes one really has to wonder why you see the same faces still playing, crying over their next toys getting changed. Why not just leave the game if you get so upset over it eh pointed at the op* - Boosters and PirateProfessions
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.10.25 17:09:00 - [102] Originally by: Malcanis It seems like I've seen a post to the effect that pretty much everything is getting a nerf one way or the other. So what's still going to be any good? (STFU about Falcons, seriously. Falcons cant kill an AFK autopiloting hauler before it reaches the gate (I've tried). Yes, a balanced gang should have EW and yes the Falcon is the best general purpose EW ship because it's completely specialised in EW. I know already.) Warhammer will still be fine post-patch.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.25 17:33:00 - [103] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 25/10/2008 17:34:55 Originally by: Derek Sigres Blobbing inheritly happens because there is strength and security in numbers. Falcon's don't make blobs - people who don't want to lose their ships make blobs. Certain game mechanics also favor the blob - POS warfare for example, or if you prefer, capital ships. The blob is the natural progression of Eve. The solopwnmobiles are more or less gone, and the player base has learned that numbers and brute force are superior to any single fitting or brilliant tactic. The natural progression of EVE it may be. The natural progression as it should be, it is not. Capital ships, with bigger weapons, bigger splash, weapons like DDs, and other strategic measures, should discourage too large gatherings. Except they don't. Because of gameplay mechanics. IRL, any commander knows that strategic and surgical strikes are better, that spacing out forces is a necessity if you don't want them all bombed, that keeping coordination and self-sufficiency to a maximum is always good and that superior information and tactics win the battle. Where are the significant representations of these elements in EVE? Money should only go so far, yes. It's a game after all. But you must never cease rewarding brilliance. Because then you might as well stop playing a PvP game completely. Originally by: Rajere You fail at eve. It takes 1 ship to tackle a falcon, and once tackled the falcon is screwed, there is nothing a falcon can do to escape, using the methods i'm talking about. The ships that can do this will still be able to after the nano changes. I can think of atleast 4 different ship classes which can be setup for anti-falcon work, and 3 different tactics to utilize if one of the tactics get nerfed (0 anticipation any of these tactics are going to be nerfed) What methods? What in the blazes are you talking about? How about you have a nice cup of shut the ** up, sit down and think before you open your mouth. Consider the distances. The guy is using overview, no doubt, or he's an idiot. Keeping range, and making sure to have the element of surprise. Which means that you can't have a Cov. Ops probe so you can warp someone on top of him unless you have one already standing by. And for example, if we take the sort of scenario where the Falc performs best, if you and your couple of buddies get camped by a HIC and support on your way to or from the battle, and he's sitting ready, what then? In almost any scenario the Falcon will always have the edge of coming out where it wants to in the battle, and then only a sniper BS can save you from getting mostly creamed, especially after locus alterations. Ceptors? Other Recons? Forget about them. You're not going to have them around in time, and they won't be able to close or hold quickly and hard enough. Give me some examples. Give me some arguments. Otherwise, you're just talking out your ass. You fail at having brains, you simplistic little **.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.25 20:02:00 - [104] Originally by: Aleus Stygian The natural progression of EVE it may be. The natural progression as it should be, it is not. Capital ships, with bigger weapons, bigger splash, weapons like DDs, and other strategic measures, should discourage too large gatherings. Except they don't. Because of gameplay mechanics. IRL, any commander knows that strategic and surgical strikes are better, that spacing out forces is a necessity if you don't want them all bombed, that keeping coordination and self-sufficiency to a maximum is always good and that superior information and tactics win the battle. Where are the significant representations of these elements in EVE? Money should only go so far, yes. It's a game after all. But you must never cease rewarding brilliance. Because then you might as well stop playing a PvP game completely. Well, the assertion about real life strategy holds little bearing here and it's also more or less incorrect. Economy of effort is important in most conflicts because a commander does not have limitless resoucres at their disposal. Therefore, it's often in the commander's best interest to use the minimum force necessary to accomplish an objective, leaving the remainder of his combat forces available for other duties. However, just as important as economy of effort is the idea of fire superiority. The side that slings more lead with greater accuracy is almost invariably the side that will win any battle, and the best way to achieve this is with sheer, overwhelming numbers. As an example, when assaulting an entrenched opponent the general logic that's used is if the attacking force has a similarly powerful force it should avoid the dug in opponent. At 3:1 odds, the attacker should split thier effort along two fronts and only at 10:1 odds should the attacker attempt a direct, frontal assault. The reason for the logic is simple: until you achieve a wide enough margin of superiority, a frontal assault becomes unnecessarily deadly for the assaulting force. In spite of the fact that you risk a far greater portion of your forces in a 10:1 odds assault it almost invariably results in fewer casualties, thus furthering the concept of economy of effort. In Eve, the idea of economy of effort exists, but only in terms of losses. A defending force can almost certainly avoid a battle for many hours while help arrives, whereas in modern warfare it might takes DAYS for a sizable relief force to assemble. It's rare for any major alliance to have the bulk of their combat forces online more than 30 minutes to an hour from being ready for a fight. Because mobility is not an issue, the prime concern is massing enough of a force to combat a threat effectively with minimum casualties. This in itself is a prime reason blobbing happens. Then of course you have to consider that any targets of real strategic worth, such as capital ships, POS's and so forth require a substantial amout of firepower to take down in a timely fashion (i.e. before the enemy can respond in force). While a single carrier might be killable by a small handful of well flown battleships, picking apart a gang of 5 or more carriers requires a HUGE force investment, or else the gang will fend off the assault long enough for reinforcements to arrive. I agree that this isn't how the game OUGHT to be, but you can't exactly unmake the concept now that it's in place without a substantial reimagining of the game's basic mechanics.
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.25 20:02:00 - [105] Quote: OK, so what wont suck after the patch? Most of the player's wives.
Johnson Johnson	Posted - 2008.10.25 21:50:00 - [106] Originally by: Malka Badi'a Most of the player's wives. I laughed hard.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.25 22:58:00 - [107] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 25/10/2008 16:52:39 With the amount of ppl crying over changes one really has to wonder why you see the same faces still playing, crying over their next toys getting changed. Why not just leave the game if you get so upset over it eh pointed at the op* Who's leaving? I'm caldari/amarr T-2 Cruiser specced, so what should I be crying about?
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.25 23:32:00 - [108] Originally by: Derek Sigres Well, the assertion about real life strategy holds little bearing here and it's also more or less incorrect. Economy of effort is important in most conflicts because a commander does not have limitless resoucres at their disposal. Therefore, it's often in the commander's best interest to use the minimum force necessary to accomplish an objective, leaving the remainder of his combat forces available for other duties. However, just as important as economy of effort is the idea of fire superiority. The side that slings more lead with greater accuracy is almost invariably the side that will win any battle, and the best way to achieve this is with sheer, overwhelming numbers. As an example, when assaulting an entrenched opponent the general logic that's used is if the attacking force has a similarly powerful force it should avoid the dug in opponent. At 3:1 odds, the attacker should split thier effort along two fronts and only at 10:1 odds should the attacker attempt a direct, frontal assault. The reason for the logic is simple: until you achieve a wide enough margin of superiority, a frontal assault becomes unnecessarily deadly for the assaulting force. In spite of the fact that you risk a far greater portion of your forces in a 10:1 odds assault it almost invariably results in fewer casualties, thus furthering the concept of economy of effort. In Eve, the idea of economy of effort exists, but only in terms of losses. A defending force can almost certainly avoid a battle for many hours while help arrives, whereas in modern warfare it might takes DAYS for a sizable relief force to assemble. It's rare for any major alliance to have the bulk of their combat forces online more than 30 minutes to an hour from being ready for a fight. Because mobility is not an issue, the prime concern is massing enough of a force to combat a threat effectively with minimum casualties. This in itself is a prime reason blobbing happens. I agree that this isn't how the game OUGHT to be, but you can't exactly unmake the concept now that it's in place without a substantial reimagining of the game's basic mechanics. I keep repeating that 'just because something is doesn't make it right', and that that's the reason why the mods are even trying to 'fix' the game in the first place. Reimagining and revising the mechanics are part of this. You're very right on the first account, but you haven't taken into account the complexity of maneuvers or the acquisition of targets, the need not to waste firepower and effort, and so on. Plainly, the 'openness' of EVE combat and the lack of environmental circumstances and secondary targets and requisite objectives is what makes the calculation so simple. So overly simple, and risk-free for some people, and discouraging of individual pursuits and excellence and encouraging of cowardice. And while it can be disputed, and might ultimately be a question of opinion, I for one do not find this a good thing. You're right. We're talking minutes, not days here. But that shouldn't decide the difference in scope between EVE battlefields and real ones. Only the intensity. It ain't the timespan that compresses the effort, since the servers are online all day round... We can't get footholds or establish perimeters or acquire advantageous positions, or be subjected to resource denial or sneakier assaults... I know it may not be the foremost priority, and that numbers and sheer effort should always count for as much as they should, but damnit. Is this how things should be? People obviously do not desire quite this much blobbing, and you do want to reward people for thinking.
Chronowolf	Posted - 2008.10.25 23:37:00 - [109] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Derek Sigres Well, the assertion about real life strategy holds little bearing here and it's also more or less incorrect. Economy of effort is important in most conflicts because a commander does not have limitless resoucres at their disposal. Therefore, it's often in the commander's best interest to use the minimum force necessary to accomplish an objective, leaving the remainder of his combat forces available for other duties. However, just as important as economy of effort is the idea of fire superiority. The side that slings more lead with greater accuracy is almost invariably the side that will win any battle, and the best way to achieve this is with sheer, overwhelming numbers. As an example, when assaulting an entrenched opponent the general logic that's used is if the attacking force has a similarly powerful force it should avoid the dug in opponent. At 3:1 odds, the attacker should split thier effort along two fronts and only at 10:1 odds should the attacker attempt a direct, frontal assault. The reason for the logic is simple: until you achieve a wide enough margin of superiority, a frontal assault becomes unnecessarily deadly for the assaulting force. In spite of the fact that you risk a far greater portion of your forces in a 10:1 odds assault it almost invariably results in fewer casualties, thus furthering the concept of economy of effort. In Eve, the idea of economy of effort exists, but only in terms of losses. A defending force can almost certainly avoid a battle for many hours while help arrives, whereas in modern warfare it might takes DAYS for a sizable relief force to assemble. It's rare for any major alliance to have the bulk of their combat forces online more than 30 minutes to an hour from being ready for a fight. Because mobility is not an issue, the prime concern is massing enough of a force to combat a threat effectively with minimum casualties. This in itself is a prime reason blobbing happens. I agree that this isn't how the game OUGHT to be, but you can't exactly unmake the concept now that it's in place without a substantial reimagining of the game's basic mechanics. I keep repeating that 'just because something is doesn't make it right', and that that's the reason why the mods are even trying to 'fix' the game in the first place. Reimagining and revising the mechanics are part of this. You're very right on the first account, but you haven't taken into account the complexity of maneuvers or the acquisition of targets, the need not to waste firepower and effort, and so on. Plainly, the 'openness' of EVE combat and the lack of environmental circumstances and secondary targets and requisite objectives is what makes the calculation so simple. So overly simple, and risk-free for some people, and discouraging of individual pursuits and excellence and encouraging of cowardice. And while it can be disputed, and might ultimately be a question of opinion, I for one do not find this a good thing. You're right. We're talking minutes, not days here. But that shouldn't decide the difference in scope between EVE battlefields and real ones. Only the intensity. It ain't the timespan that compresses the effort, since the servers are online all day round... We can't get footholds or establish perimeters or acquire advantageous positions, or be subjected to resource denial or sneakier assaults... I know it may not be the foremost priority, and that numbers and sheer effort should always count for as much as they should, but damnit. Is this how things should be? People obviously do not desire quite this much blobbing, and you do want to reward people for thinking. man, I hate thinking.

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