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CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:17:00 - [1] Those of you with a strong yen for easier weapon management are going to like Ytterbium’s newest dev blog. Weapon grouping is just around the corner, and Ytterbium gives the skinny on how grouping will work with turrets and launchers. No more manually loading up each and every weapon, nor having your screen filled with up to eight weapons. Weapon grouping will make it easier to kill your enemy hassle-free. Read the blog here! Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email Reducing lag in EVE: The Jita Conundrum - StacklessIO or: How We Reduced Lag - Such Stuff As Dreams Are Made On - EVE64 - My node was equipped with the following...
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:20:00 - [2] I am Amarr. /hip thrusts
Gun Hog Caldari Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:31:00 - [3] Ratters, mission runners, and PvPers everywhere will thank you for this! No more F1-F8! Now it is just F1 _______________________________________________ The Original Ultranoob 0.0 Carebear!!
Princess Kristie Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:33:00 - [4] Why do I still feel worried about overloading my guns since it becomes very tricky to oversee them...
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:36:00 - [5] so now instead of having just one or two crystals needing reloading each and every gun will try to load the same crystal every single time you try to change crystals? and then all need reloading for each gun in the group? how is this a good thing? or does fixing the amarr ammo changing get included in this little idea too?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:43:00 - [6] Grouping Mining Lasers please! Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar

Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:45:00 - [7] I like dis.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:46:00 - [8] I have wanted something similar for some time now. Thanks for the blog and the new feature.
Complete Tart Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:54:00 - [9] This is a great addition
Aba D'houk	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Gawain Hill so now instead of having just one or two crystals needing reloading each and every gun will try to load the same crystal every single time you try to change crystals? and then all need reloading for each gun in the group? how is this a good thing? or does fixing the amarr ammo changing get included in this little idea too? Its the stealth "make sure amarr still sucks" nerf, What would a patch be without it :P

Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:17:00 - [11] ive been messing around on sisi with cruise missiles and torps. It's pretty good. Ive also watched other people. I must say... it doesnt seem many people care to use this system. Perhaps because there's issues with the system a few patches ago.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Chribba Grouping Mining Lasers please! I guess it cant hurt to allow it... but honestly... it's better to split your lasers among the different roids. That's my experience anyway.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Gawain Hill so now instead of having just one or two crystals needing reloading each and every gun will try to load the same crystal every single time you try to change crystals? and then all need reloading for each gun in the group? how is this a good thing? or does fixing the amarr ammo changing get included in this little idea too? Nobody says you have to use grouping. Also afaik it is said that the damage is shared equally. So if you start off with all fresh crystals from day one. In group. It shouldnt be an issue; they ought to burn out at the same time.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:51:00 - [14] wait ... so instead of an UI only feature you created something that has more limitations than usability ? how is that good ? I mean I have to have all the same guns on the ship ... so a Thorax with 3 ions and 2 electrons (quite common setups on blaster ships to max damage is to mix guns to fiting limit) will have to have 2 groups minimum ... oh and the missile to defender change hmm ... Warhead upgrades ? balistic controls ? missile damage rigs ? won't they make your calculations incorrect ? all changes done by CCP lately are heading the wrong direction ...
Syekuda Caldari Titanium Guard	Posted - 2008.10.23 12:54:00 - [15] uhh wtf ? did the smartbomb "trick" worked before. Does this mean I could of set one up and defend myself again missiles ? uhh, yeah, it is unbalanced in some way even if you have to be perfectly timed to release your smartbomb. I can already imagine people training for this and using this tactic instead. Give it a couple of months and you'll see threads like "nerf the guns".
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:07:00 - [16] CCP, I think we will need a button (bindable keyboard shortcut) that when pressed will automatically un-stagger all grouped weapons and make them shoot sequentially. In the case of missiles, for example, instead of one big missile, it would shoot a stream of missiles, while the button is held down, and switch back to one uber-missile when button is released. And, trying to prevent a possible bug in your implementation: We can drag the guns around so they appear in different spots, rather than be nicely lined up in the F1-F8 position like you're showing. Does your grouping interface still work if our weapons are spread all over the HUD placeholders (f.ex. 8 guns in F1-F3, Alt-F1, Alt-F2, Ctrl F1, Ctrl-F2)?
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:08:00 - [17] As turret user I am a happy panda.. As missile user I am an utterly sad panda.. And I am not crying for the coming smartbomb boost on battleships, its a rather cool feature to negate missile damage as only carebears will use the missile grouping, I am more argueing about the looks... The "big" missile looks sooooo uncool and ugly that I would already call it an immersion breaker, seriously. So for missile users this is mostly a feature you don't care about as you better don't use it anways. As a PvPer that is.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:10:00 - [18] Weapon Grouping = GOOD Telling everyone that SmartBombs are better than Defenders = BAD Watching people use SmartBombs nuking their own drones = LOL
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:16:00 - [19] Edited by: I SoStoned on 23/10/2008 13:19:57 Good idea! Was this something that had been 'on the back burner' or did the CSM threads in the Assembly Hall bring this idea forward? I like Letouk's idea even better. Salvo & Stagger options. Since all the weapons must be fully identical then such a calculation would be very simple as far as DB calls. If your launcher/railgun/arty has a cycle time of 8 seconds you can either fire an Alpha salvo every 8 seconds, or a single shot every 1 second. Or, with short range weapons, fire a single shot every 0.23 seconds (Sabrer w/ 8 autos linked!!!). evil killmail hogging grin
Kakita J Placid Reborn	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:33:00 - [20] Edited by: Kakita J on 23/10/2008 13:33:47 I seem to remember this came up in the suggestions forum. Cool stuff you're implementing it... the way you're balancing smartbombs and defenders sounds sensible enough, but we need to try this out some to get a proper feeling. edit: nevermind, it's in the blog

Salpad Caldari Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:46:00 - [21] From reading the log, it sounds as if Weapon Grouping will only allow me to launch volleys. While volleys are sometimes fun and/or tactically pertinent, there are other situations where I'd prefer to launch my missiles sequentially. Can't this be automated too, as another function of weapon grouping? The game can do it better than I can, by taking the RoF of my launchers, dividing the RoF by the number of launchers in the group, and then firing one missile at each interval. I realize server load is higher for this function than for alpha-style volleys, but I like the string-of-missiles approach, some of the time, and I'll just continue doing it manually if I can't have it automatically. -- Salpad
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 13:47:00 - [22] I had hoped for combined weapon damage calculations. Oh well, I had hoped my 1400mm Artillery ll would see the glorious return of the Alpha-Damage with weapons grouping and wrecking hits.
ArmyOfMe Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:16:00 - [23] how will this affect wrecking shots? Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
JiJiCle Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:31:00 - [24] /agree for sequencial firing mode idea Why not in the right click menu of the group where you can switch to sequential mode ? Interval between shots would be ModuleRoF/(NumberOfModule+1) To go a bit further, it would also be cool to be able to choose each group interval between 0(volley mode) and continous fire(ModuleRoF/NumberOfModule+1) Last thing for your future addition on this new UI feature, please consider enabling non-turrent/launcher(but chargeless) groups grouping all hardeners/damage controls, tacling gear or tracking comps/sensor booster to differents groups would really clean up the UI and ease piloting. You can add some drawbacks for such groups, like: all mods must be activated at the same or none will (if lacking capa for the third mod of the group, none would activate) This is a really cool first step in module grouping, please go on
JiJiCle Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:33:00 - [25] Originally by: ArmyOfMe how will this affect wrecking shots? Originally by: CCP Ytterbium How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated? The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you wonÆt have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane).
ArmyOfMe Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:39:00 - [26] Originally by: JiJiCle Originally by: ArmyOfMe how will this affect wrecking shots? Originally by: CCP Ytterbium How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated? The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you wonÆt have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane). whoops, missed that part Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Salpad From reading the log, it sounds as if Weapon Grouping will only allow me to launch volleys. While volleys are sometimes fun and/or tactically pertinent, there are other situations where I'd prefer to launch my missiles sequentially. Can't this be automated too, as another function of weapon grouping? The game can do it better than I can, by taking the RoF of my launchers, dividing the RoF by the number of launchers in the group, and then firing one missile at each interval. I realize server load is higher for this function than for alpha-style volleys, but I like the string-of-missiles approach, some of the time, and I'll just continue doing it manually if I can't have it automatically. Sounds to me like this is mostly being done for network and server load optimisation. It would make no sense if it let you fire off a sequence of shots.
Johncrab Minmatar XBeyond	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:54:00 - [28] Edited by: Johncrab on 23/10/2008 14:54:54 About time you guys started working on this. Much needed feature. It will help a lot with changing ammo types and clear out some much needed space on overview, mainly on 7/8 high slots ships. I imagine there's a lot of calculations and then optimizations to be done but the begining seems promissing. Hope to see this real soon on SISI so we can make sure there's no bugs associated with weapon grouping when it hitts TQ.
Reptzo Channel 4 News Team	Posted - 2008.10.23 14:59:00 - [29] I have one question about stacked guns. With guns, you sometimes kill a target with only part of the volley, be it last or first shot. Either way, some of the guns don't fire, since the target is dead. Thus they don't use ammo, or cycle. How will stacking affect this, will the guns now all use ammo, and if the target is already dead its already dead your bullets miss? I don't really care either way, would simply like to know. Otherwise this is awesome in my eyes.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens	Posted - 2008.10.23 15:11:00 - [30] Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 23/10/2008 15:11:11 Originally by: Reptzo I have one question about stacked guns. With guns, you sometimes kill a target with only part of the volley, be it last or first shot. Either way, some of the guns don't fire, since the target is dead. Thus they don't use ammo, or cycle. How will stacking affect this, will the guns now all use ammo, and if the target is already dead its already dead your bullets miss? I don't really care either way, would simply like to know. Otherwise this is awesome in my eyes. I think it's safe to say that since all guns will fire at the exact same instant (they are really just one big helluva gun), all the ammo that does not apply to the target (because it's dead already) will be wasted. It would be same if you managed to fire all your guns at the same time. I personally think that's a tiny sacrifice to make for such an awesome feature. (especially since I fly Amarr :D) Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.

Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 15:29:00 - [31] Don't speak English... F1!
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.23 15:48:00 - [32] Silly question, but if a defender missile does not do enough damage to a stack to remove a missile, is the stack's damage still reduced? _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
Shadow's Caress	Posted - 2008.10.23 15:51:00 - [33] As it stands, it seems like the grouped weapons all effectively fire at the same time. That's great and all, but is there any way we can group them and have them fire sequentially in even intervals? This would do wonders for capacitor efficiency on some guns as well as giving the missile users some chance to penetrate smartbombs.
jbob2000 Gallente Pernicious Creed	Posted - 2008.10.23 15:59:00 - [34] Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc. I foresee many problems with this system. ________________________________
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:06:00 - [35] Let me be a bastard and ilustrate how this should be handled UI wise First we make a new button that could look like this : Link to Chribbas wonderful service please excuse the horrible shoop but im not designing the UI for you guys ... make it look like um a chain or something Then we proceed with : Giving the button the rightclick option of "Enter Grouping mode" Next folows the anti RSI function of convenience As you already stated weapons that arnt of the same type cannot be grouped together. That is why at the click of this button all those High slot modules should be grouped together into their possible groups. This could then be indicated on this button by a color and/or form change An aditional click on this button should unlink all High slot modules and set the icon back to its original state Extra merrit section : Do not just shuffle all modules into 1 icon and give it the number of modules underneth it Leave all modules inplace but add the number of the GROUP they belong to (facilitating thermodynamics monitoring and i want to see my gun mentality) similarly have the ui respond to the standard F button layout e.g. guns from f1-f6 neuts f7-f8 any f button from f1 to f6 could then activate the weapon group (remember unlinking is just 1 click away and manual linking is still possible) and f7 to f8 activate the neut group As an extra extra bonus weapon groups could then be dragged over to switch place with the lesser ones in 1 go instead of multiple e.g. f1-f6 goes 2 up while f7-f8 goes all the way down with the simple hold and drag of 1 item of a group (visualy you see all of them going of course) Extra extra extra tripple gold star merrit badge : Weapon staggerd activation available in the new buttons rightclick menu and other cool stuff so much for the UI feel free to use this idea i declare it open source ------------------------ Missiles: should never be of the im a giant missile type thats just not right in so many ways
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:09:00 - [36] Originally by: jbob2000 Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc. I foresee many problems with this system. because instead of doing an UI fix they went ahead and overengineerd it so its a background feature reducing calls and stuffs visualy represented with the option to group weps together
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:32:00 - [37] Two simple questions: -Can you group weapons at the Fitting screen? (like Shift-drag&dropping one weapon over the other or something like that) -Will there be a "Right-button > Ungroup all weapons" option? Thanks. Great work! ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
TimGascoigne The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:35:00 - [38] Edited by: TimGascoigne on 23/10/2008 16:34:51 ==> CCP me needs this in game now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <==
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:49:00 - [39] Originally by: CCP Ytterbium (I am a misunderstood genius) Oh god that made me laugh so hard
LoKesh Amarr InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.10.23 17:00:00 - [40] Great idea! The blog states that exceptional hits (wrecking, etc) will be handled separately. However, the way you describe the overall system seems to imply that normal hit and damage calculations will be performed together. I say this because you are treating multiple missiles as one entity and you mention this will reduce needed calculations. Does this mean when I fire 8 guns I will either hit with all 8 or miss with all 8? (and that they'll all do the same base damage?) That seems like an important detail to know. High RoF weapons won't care much, but if you're dealing with a long range weapon that only fires every 10 seconds this is something to think about.

Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.10.23 17:33:00 - [41] Originally by: Hugh Ruka wait ... so instead of an UI only feature you created something that has more limitations than usability ? how is that good ? The 'UI' version of this was discussed for a while but the developers came back saying that it was resource prohibitive, meaning if they implemented it you would get more lag and server load. With this solution, they gave the basic functionality AND reduced the number of client/server & db calls, which speeds things up. Less lag is good.
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.23 17:52:00 - [42] Originally by: LoKesh Great idea! The blog states that exceptional hits (wrecking, etc) will be handled separately. However, the way you describe the overall system seems to imply that normal hit and damage calculations will be performed together. I say this because you are treating multiple missiles as one entity and you mention this will reduce needed calculations. Does this mean when I fire 8 guns I will either hit with all 8 or miss with all 8? (and that they'll all do the same base damage?) That seems like an important detail to know. High RoF weapons won't care much, but if you're dealing with a long range weapon that only fires every 10 seconds this is something to think about. Nope. You will make one function call to fire guns. The server then works out the damage calculations for each gun all at once. So instead of (for eight turrets): 1. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 2. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 3. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 4. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 5. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 6. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 7. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage 8. Fire turret -> calculate hit -> calculate damage Its: 1. Fire turret x 8 -> calculate hits for eight distinct guns -> calculate damage for eight distinct guns At least that is my understanding. They are grouping the function calls on the server to increase performance. Make Sense?
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Its: 1. Fire turret x 8 -> calculate hits for eight distinct guns -> calculate damage for eight distinct guns At least that is my understanding. They are grouping the function calls on the server to increase performance. Make Sense? I would expect there is a further performance increase beyond that. With the un-grouped method, each turret's damage would actually be applied to the target ship separately, requiring 8x resistance calculations, attribute modifications, damage notifications to the target client etc. With grouping, I would assume that they would aggregate up the damage from each individual gun in the group, and apply the total as a single hit to the target, requiring only 1x resistance calculation etc.
jbob2000 Gallente Pernicious Creed	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Aarin Wrath 1. Fire turret x 8 -> calculate hits for eight distinct guns -> calculate damage for eight distinct guns In your example, nothing has changed, they still have to calculate the damage for eight guns. Unless I am the one who misunderstood. With this system though, does 1x wrecking mean that all the other guns are wrecking shots as well? Do some guns miss when grouped and others not miss?
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Matthew I would expect there is a further performance increase beyond that. With the un-grouped method, each turret's damage would actually be applied to the target ship separately, requiring 8x resistance calculations, attribute modifications, damage notifications to the target client etc. With grouping, I would assume that they would aggregate up the damage from each individual gun in the group, and apply the total as a single hit to the target, requiring only 1x resistance calculation etc. Wow yeah I diden't even think of that. That would definitely speed things up.
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:33:00 - [46] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 23/10/2008 18:35:42 Originally by: jbob2000 In your example, nothing has changed, they still have to calculate the damage for eight guns. Unless I am the one who misunderstood. With this system though, does 1x wrecking mean that all the other guns are wrecking shots as well? Do some guns miss when grouped and others not miss? Yeah but they caculate all eight guns in one function call. Much faster. To give an analogy: Say you need to get toilet paper and some milk at the grovery store. In he current system you would get in your car, drive to the store, buy milk, get back into the car, drive home. Get in the car again, drive to the store again, buy toilet paper, get back into the car, drive home. With grouping you would get into your car, drive to the store, buy milk, buy toilet paper, get back into your car, drive home. Make sense? And from the blog: Originally by: CCP Ytterbium How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated? The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you wonÆt have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane).
jbob2000 Gallente Pernicious Creed	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Aarin Wrath Yeah but they caculate all eight guns in one function call. Much faster. And from the blog: Originally by: CCP Ytterbium How are the grouped weapons attributes calculated? The system was designed to retain balance between grouped and individual weapons. For example, damage multiplier and capacitor consumption will be properly multiplied depending on the number of grouped weapons, while falloff, tracking, range will remain the same. Hit dice is rolled separately for each module that is grouped while taking into account wrecking hits, so you wonÆt have a wrecking hit taking the summed up damage of all weapons (which would just be insane). Ahh ok, gotcha. Stupidly complex....
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 18:40:00 - [48] Can different-by-name-but-otherwise-the-same weapons be stacked together? For example, 3 Domination 1400m Howitzers with 3 Republic Fleet 1400m Howitzers?
jbob2000 Gallente Pernicious Creed	Posted - 2008.10.23 19:06:00 - [49] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Can different-by-name-but-otherwise-the-same weapons be stacked together? For example, 3 Domination 1400m Howitzers with 3 Republic Fleet 1400m Howitzers? from the blog: "you cannot have a mixed group made of TI, TII and named/faction/deadspace variants at the same time" ________________________________
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 19:13:00 - [50] Also from the blog, they need to have the same stats for the calculations to work. These modules have the exact same stats. A mix of T1/named/T2/faction has different stats, these have different names but identical stats. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim

Maren Maen	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:02:00 - [51] Is there some reason this can't be applied to tanking modules as well (e.g., combining a therm armor hardener, em hardener, kinetic hardener into a one click operation)?
Dav Varan	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:07:00 - [52] Great stuff. Question If I have guns with the same stats but different names will I be able to stack them ? True Sansha / Dark Blood etc Request While your tinkering with the context menu can you please put the ammo list into some sort of order ( alphabetical would be nice ) hint.
matarkhan Soldi di Protezione	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:22:00 - [53] Edited by: matarkhan on 23/10/2008 20:22:54 Quote: Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc. I foresee many problems with this system. ^this IMHO, I would rather see a system where the weapons weren't stacked, and wouldn't have to be identical.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:31:00 - [54] I may not use this simply due to cycle time and drone logic. If you F1-F8 a row of rails when rats pop you can be fairly sure one of the rails will be at the end of the cycle and can immediately be applied to a new target. This helps as drones will tend to follow your lead in their target selections. If all the rails were stacked you would have to wait for the entire stack to complete the cycle before you can reactive on a new target. By that time your drones will have made their own (Failmento) decision.
Daminma2 Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.23 20:39:00 - [55] Originally by: matarkhan Edited by: matarkhan on 23/10/2008 20:22:54 Quote: Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc. I foresee many problems with this system. ^this IMHO, I would rather see a system where the weapons weren't stacked, and wouldn't have to be identical. The idea of this is to reduce lag. The grouping is just a way to realize that and not to make our life easier.
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.23 21:58:00 - [56] Sounds like an excellent development. Only questions I have are regarding Heat; When one gun explodes in the stack, how will you tell while they are all stacked? Say with 2 stacks of 4 guns, can you overload one stack only with one click as you would with individual turrets? Looking forward to new and improved alpha strikes, though you still need to look at blaster tracking if you intend to nerf webbers - cheers.
Theqwert125	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:01:00 - [57] For everyone whining about it's limitations: IT'S OPTIONAL! Use it if it works for you, and if it doesn't, don't. This is a server optimization cleverly disguised as a UI feature, NOT just a new shiny button to use. Also (from my understanding) since turret shots will be simultaneous with linking, they all have the same hit chance from the tracking formula, so it is only used once per volley. Then the die is rolled per turret. Like this: 1x Ammo calculation 1x Capacitor calculation 1x Tracking calculation 8x Hitchance/quality die roll calculations 1x Damage aplication calculations Instead of 8x of each
Gerard Deneth Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:01:00 - [58] Originally by: OneSock I may not use this simply due to cycle time and drone logic. If you F1-F8 a row of rails when rats pop you can be fairly sure one of the rails will be at the end of the cycle and can immediately be applied to a new target. This helps as drones will tend to follow your lead in their target selections. If all the rails were stacked you would have to wait for the entire stack to complete the cycle before you can reactive on a new target. By that time your drones will have made their own (Failmento) decision. No-one says you have to group it into one big grouping of 8 guns. I'll probably split mine into two groups of 4 instead for flexibility. ---------------------------- The Game's always changing under your feet; don't start moaning when you get a toe caught in the gears.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.10.23 22:34:00 - [59] This was a nice overview of the new system, but there was a distinct lack of new information. I asked a few very important questions in a previous thread that went largely unanswered. It's been mentioned that the number of server calculations are being reduced by stacking guns and that the new supergun will be "equivalent" to the eight guns but it's very possible that something's been overlooked and the guns will not be equivalent. If I'm understanding this correctly, guns with a high refire time could end up with more variable (less consistent) damage and that's just one thing that needs to be examined. I gave more details in the post linked there. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Rockstara	Posted - 2008.10.24 00:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Nyphur This was a nice overview of the new system, but there was a distinct lack of new information. I asked a few very important questions in a previous thread that went largely unanswered. It's been mentioned that the number of server calculations are being reduced by stacking guns and that the new supergun will be "equivalent" to the eight guns but it's very possible that something's been overlooked and the guns will not be equivalent. If I'm understanding this correctly, guns with a high refire time could end up with more variable (less consistent) damage and that's just one thing that needs to be examined. I gave more details in the post linked there. no seems like they are thinking of most things. I'm sure something will come up in testing, but hey thats what testing is for. The hit calculation is only one in a long stream...read up Originally by: theqwert125 For everyone whining about it's limitations: IT'S OPTIONAL! Use it if it works for you, and if it doesn't, don't. This is a server optimization cleverly disguised as a UI feature, NOT just a new shiny button to use. Also (from my understanding) since turret shots will be simultaneous with linking, they all have the same hit chance from the tracking formula, so it is only used once per volley. Then the die is rolled per turret. Like this: 1x Ammo calculation 1x Capacitor calculation 1x Tracking calculation 8x Hitchance/quality die roll calculations 1x Damage aplication calculations Instead of 8x of each [\quote] ^^this...read the damn thread

Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.24 05:35:00 - [61] just an idea but would it be possible to link weapons together WHILE still having the individual weapon icons accessible? so say I'm blasting away at an enemy ships with my turrets while locking a nearby pod. rather than stopping the whole 8 linked weapons to kill the pod I just stop one and 1 shot the pod... when I do this the weapon I used came out of the 8 linked weapon group... just a thought and I know that could cause your module window to come very clogged but meh.... also sweet feature and good work ccp... now if you could just put the trade item 'duct tape' in the game and fix mining agents I'd be happy =) ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Pliauga Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.24 06:06:00 - [62] KUDOS CCP ---------- DRONE love rulez!! 'mkay?! LONG range/"OUT OF SYSTEM" artillery
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.10.24 07:35:00 - [63] Oh, this is fantastic.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.24 07:46:00 - [64] One potential mega-missile concern that I didn't see addressed is how the NPC logic for defender missiles will handle it. As I understand it, NPCs that have defenders use a simple % chance of launching a defender per missile fired at it. If the mega-missile only counts as one missile fired, this is going to give a clear advantage to the mega-missile over individual launchers when fighting defender-equipped NPCs. Presumably the NPCs will be able to know how many normal missiles a mega-missile is equivalent to, and make the appropriate number of "launch defender" rolls. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.24 08:24:00 - [65] I don't like the fact you can't have more than one weapon type in the groups. Have you considered that Minmatar ships due to their 'versatility' usually have to have a couple of missile launchers and guns to maximise their DPS? Or a lot of BS fittings require one weapon to be of lower PG to be able to fit it? Or be able to group things like remote reppers? Still a step in the right direction I suppose, but by no means perfect... Chairman \| www.eve-bank.net
Moraguth Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:20:00 - [66] So how would this work.... Let's say I'm in my apoc, ratting or something, and i have my 8 mega pulse IIs linked together into one icon. Then, some bastard comes in and scrambles me and starts draining the hell outta my cap. When this happens, some of my modules deactivate, but some of them keep running. What is the 1 grouped module going to do when half the guns get turned off because of outside interference (someone nossing my cap for example)? Will I have to ungroup my modules during combat to make sure I can see which ones are still firing and to spam the buttons to try to make the others fire as soon as I get more cap?
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:26:00 - [67] looks great!
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:43:00 - [68] One question to people that have used it on sisi. How does heat work? I know for a fact that when overloading a rack of guns they dont all take heat damage at the smae time. Even if its just a full rack of guns with no empty slots and no heat-sink modules the heat distribution is not even. That being the case, with the guns all grouped together into one icon how the hell are you supposed to keep an eye out for the one rogue gun that wants to burn itself out 30 seconds before the rest of the group?
Sun Liping	Posted - 2008.10.24 09:54:00 - [69] Originally by: Typhado3 just an idea but would it be possible to link weapons together WHILE still having the individual weapon icons accessible? I would also much prefer having the single weapon icons for individual fire control as they are now, as well as one additional weapon group icon when i engage a single target. With the probable exception of fleet battles you will always need the flexibility individual turret firing provides. My guess is with the current implementation it wont see that much use, reducing the expected loadreduction for the server, since everybody would simply stick to having a macro key on my keyboard set to fire f1-f8 on one press or pressing them individually.
Doxs Roxs Free Collective Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.10.24 11:15:00 - [70] **ing awesome!!! Implement this ** asap, like NOW! Finally I can have all my active modules on the F1-F8 slot without resorting to stupid ctrl + alt shortcuts. Regards /Doxs

SeerinDarkness Minmatar An Tir Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.24 11:19:00 - [71] And this was something that the dev team originally said would never happen because they diden't want to promote/allow automated game play like this. And i agree with them, so why are we going to this kind of automated crap? make no sense to me and appears to be a total reversal of Game design policy. Now its going to be about how fast a person can push 1 key for the insta-damage/pop..what a letdown. Seer
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.24 11:58:00 - [72] Originally by: Moraguth What is the 1 grouped module going to do when half the guns get turned off because of outside interference (someone nossing my cap for example)? Will I have to ungroup my modules during combat to make sure I can see which ones are still firing and to spam the buttons to try to make the others fire as soon as I get more cap? I would expect that when the modules are grouped, the group will be treated as a single activation for these purposes. i.e. you will need enough capacitor to be able to fire the whole group at once. If you don't, then none of the group will fire. You would have to ungroup your weapons in this situation if you wanted to try and maintain fire from a smaller number of them. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Tamillia	Posted - 2008.10.24 12:05:00 - [73] Okay i realize this probably wont affect that many people, but from what i understand of this feature defender missiles will reduse the damage of a "super" missile by a % of what damage it does to it. Now i do missions in torp golem, and defender missiles doesn't hurt my torps so they are in effect immune to defenders. Now with this change i will suddenly get a 25-50% damage reduction due to the fact that missions rats can shoot 1 or 2 defenders againt each volly i do. This doen't seem like it a good idea imo, eventhough i have been wantet a mass reload/fire fuction for a long time now.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.10.24 15:15:00 - [74] Originally by: Rockstara no seems like they are thinking of most things. I'm sure something will come up in testing, but hey thats what testing is for. The hit calculation is only one in a long stream...read up With all due respect, there hasn't been a dev post in this thread so far. We have no way of knowing that they're doing everything right, at the moment we have to take their word for it that any and all issues associated with weapon stacking have been thought of, explored and dealt with. And while they generally do a good job, some really obvious problems and exploits have slipped through in previous patches that convince me the only way to make sure the new system is adequate is to publicise the nitty gritty details. EVE's community has a wealth of talent in it, including programmers and mathematicians. If there's a problem with the mechanics of the stacking system, they'll find it. Ideally, we'd like any problems to be exposed before the feature goes live so they can be corrected and not afterward when they can be exploited. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.

CCP Ytterbium	Posted - 2008.10.24 16:04:00 - [75] Lots of questions in here, I will answer some now. Originally by: jbob2000 Why couldn't weapon grouping be a simple hot key hash? I was beginning to wonder why this was listed as a key feature in the new expansion when it should be something extremely simple. You've made this system far too complex. All it needs to do is allow us to fire all 8 guns with 1 key. That's it. I don't really need to use the rest of the F2-F8 keys cause i have F9-F11 for MWD, Reps, drones, etc. I foresee many problems with this system. This is technically what is this design achieving at the time being. You group modules of the same type which is activated with one button. You save F2-F8 shortcut for other module activation, which is very convenient for quick keyboard access. On a more general picture, the point was not only to provide more player usability by allowing commands to be applied to several modules but also help with general performance. We went for the current UI approach because having grouped modules shown in a "row link" instead of stack would have cluttered the module UI too much and not provide the free shortcut advantage explained before. Originally by: Dmian Two simple questions: -Can you group weapons at the Fitting screen? (like Shift-drag&dropping one weapon over the other or something like that) -Will there be a "Right-button > Ungroup all weapons" option? Thanks. Great work! Yes you can if all limitations listed in the Blog are respected (no ammo, same exact type, same state). Just hold shift then drag and drop the modules and here you go. You cannot clear all groups with one button, just right-click each and select "Clear group" instead. Come on, it is only a few extra more clicks . Originally by: Dav Varan Question If I have guns with the same stats but different names will I be able to stack them ? True Sansha / Dark Blood etc Request While your tinkering with the context menu can you please put the ammo list into some sort of order ( alphabetical would be nice ) hint. Unfortunately not, the modules need to be exactly the same. Regarding your ammo classification request, you should post into this category instead. Originally by: Typhado3 just an idea but would it be possible to link weapons together WHILE still having the individual weapon icons accessible? so say I'm blasting away at an enemy ships with my turrets while locking a nearby pod. rather than stopping the whole 8 linked weapons to kill the pod I just stop one and 1 shot the pod... when I do this the weapon I used came out of the 8 linked weapon group... just a thought and I know that could cause your module window to come very clogged but meh.... We are not planning to do this for the reasons explained before or until a design tremor happens. As somebody else mentionned, you can always create two groups of fewer weapons rather than one big one to help in that situation however. Originally by: Mr Horizontal I don't like the fact you can't have more than one weapon type in the groups. Have you considered that Minmatar ships due to their 'versatility' usually have to have a couple of missile launchers and guns to maximise their DPS? Or a lot of BS fittings require one weapon to be of lower PG to be able to fit it? Or be able to group things like remote reppers? Still a step in the right direction I suppose, but by no means perfect... Again, nothing prevents you from creating two stacks, one for turrets and the other for missiles. About being able to group other module types, this is something we will be considering in the future. Is the system perfect? Of course not, we had to overcome extremely difficult choices since lots of people had good ideas during the design process. Is it the best possible solution we could come up with? I believe so.


CCP Ytterbium	Posted - 2008.10.24 16:05:00 - [76] Originally by: SeerinDarkness And this was something that the dev team originally said would never happen because they diden't want to promote/allow automated game play like this. And i agree with them, so why are we going to this kind of automated crap? make no sense to me and appears to be a total reversal of Game design policy. Now its going to be about how fast a person can push 1 key for the insta-damage/pop..what a letdown. Seer As you stated it yourself, one still needs to be pressing the button to activate the stack so interaction is still needed. We are coming up with this to answer player concerns about lag and usability, I believe it to be a proof we do listen and care to our player base on the contrary. We perfectly understand and are sorry you may not like this feature, but on such case, nothing forces you to use it: it remains a UI option. Originally by: Nyphur With all due respect, there hasn't been a dev post in this thread so far. We have no way of knowing that they're doing everything right, at the moment we have to take their word for it that any and all issues associated with weapon stacking have been thought of, explored and dealt with. And while they generally do a good job, some really obvious problems and exploits have slipped through in previous patches that convince me the only way to make sure the new system is adequate is to publicise the nitty gritty details. EVE's community has a wealth of talent in it, including programmers and mathematicians. If there's a problem with the mechanics of the stacking system, they'll find it. Ideally, we'd like any problems to be exposed before the feature goes live so they can be corrected and not afterward when they can be exploited. Which is why I am answering this thread right now We are fully aware how valuable the community is, but keep in mind that writting up proper replies take time, because we need to double, even triple-check the information before sending it. Doing so also takes an amazing amount of time, which we usually sadly cannot afford to spend right after you submitted a post since we are caught in other duties. I am fully aware of your good point in the other thread, but replying requires technical details that I cannot give myself at the moment. I am a Dev, not a programmer, some of my duties are to write up designs, weight-up mechanism choices regarding of balance, overal situtation, feedback, experience, check, text if they are properly implemented to match the original goals. I do not take care of the exact code implementation, and you honestly don't want me to tamper with the programming part because this is not what I was hired to do. However, I will poke around to see if I can get you the answer you deserve.

Glassback Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.24 16:32:00 - [77] I'm mehh.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.10.24 17:27:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Originally by: Nyphur With all due respect, there hasn't been a dev post in this thread so far. We have no way of knowing that they're doing everything right, at the moment we have to take their word for it that any and all issues associated with weapon stacking have been thought of, explored and dealt with. And while they generally do a good job, some really obvious problems and exploits have slipped through in previous patches that convince me the only way to make sure the new system is adequate is to publicise the nitty gritty details. EVE's community has a wealth of talent in it, including programmers and mathematicians. If there's a problem with the mechanics of the stacking system, they'll find it. Ideally, we'd like any problems to be exposed before the feature goes live so they can be corrected and not afterward when they can be exploited. Which is why I am answering this thread right now We are fully aware how valuable the community is, but keep in mind that writting up proper replies take time, because we need to double, even triple-check the information before sending it. Doing so also takes an amazing amount of time, which we usually sadly cannot afford to spend right after you submitted a post since we are caught in other duties. I am fully aware of your good point in the other thread, but replying requires technical details that I cannot give myself at the moment. I am a Dev, not a programmer, some of my duties are to write up designs, weight-up mechanism choices regarding of balance, overal situtation, feedback, experience, check, text if they are properly implemented to match the original goals. I do not take care of the exact code implementation, and you honestly don't want me to tamper with the programming part because this is not what I was hired to do. However, I will poke around to see if I can get you the answer you deserve. Awesome. There are other concerns too of course but I think the important ones have already been voiced. The stacked guns should for all practical intents and purposes function the same as unstacked guns. I'm not even sure how I feel about the case of the mega missile versus smartbombs/defenders but this has at least been confirmed as an intentional design change and has been accompanied by balance tweaks. In the case of turrets, we need to be concerned not only with maintaining the same damage per second but also damage per volley, range of possible damage values per hit per gun and standard distribution of damage values per hit per gun over the course of a fight. If tracking for all guns is rolled once, for example, that means instead of missing with 7 guns out of 8 on a frigate, I'd have a 1/8 chance of doing full massive damage and a 7/8 chance of missing entirely. But I explained this in the post I linked already. I was also thinking, what happens to the drawbacks from T2 ammo that are applied to the base ship and not the weapon? The capacitor recharge rate penalty from Rage torpedos, for example, is (as far as I understand) applied separately for each weapon in consecutive order. That makes the final recharge time in seconds t'=t*(1.05^n) where n is the number of launchers loaded with the ammo. So for 8 launchers, it'd be 1.477 times the base recharge time (a 47.7% increase), making the cap/second generated equal to 1/1.477=0.677 of what it was before loading the ammo. Again, don't take my word on that as I can't use t2 missiles to directly test it but that's beside the point. When stacked, the same penalty needs to be applied as when unstacked. Things to check for are that it's not applying only a single 5% penalty or that it's simply adding the penalties together (in this example resulting in a 40% instead of 47.7% increase in capacitor recharge time in seconds). Once the feature is released, I'm sure people will run enough manual tests to determine if these conditions have all been satisfied and will quickly notice any disparities.
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.24 17:45:00 - [79] Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Yes you can if all limitations listed in the Blog are respected (no ammo, same exact type, same state). Just hold shift then drag and drop the modules and here you go. You cannot clear all groups with one button, just right-click each and select "Clear group" instead. Come on, it is only a few extra more clicks . Just tried it on Sisi, works great! \/ Great work! ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.10.24 18:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Jason Edwards Originally by: Gawain Hill so now instead of having just one or two crystals needing reloading each and every gun will try to load the same crystal every single time you try to change crystals? and then all need reloading for each gun in the group? how is this a good thing? or does fixing the amarr ammo changing get included in this little idea too? Nobody says you have to use grouping. Also afaik it is said that the damage is shared equally. So if you start off with all fresh crystals from day one. In group. It shouldnt be an issue; they ought to burn out at the same time. the problem is changing crystals once they have been loaded in once and taken out they count as a unique item so all the guns try to load the same crystal at the same time so you have to take a VERY long time between changing crystals or refresh them repeatedly. so this going to be fixed for the patch or left?

Octavio Santillian Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.10.24 20:13:00 - [81] Though I realize this does nothing on the performance side, I would like to see the proposed system implemented with a few additional UI options: namely the æFire AllÆ button and the æChange AllÆ option being added. The system CCP is proposing is fine, but frankly, there are lots of situations where players will not or cannot group weapons. In those cases there will be no performance gains anyway, but there is no reason why there cannot be an enhanced UI experience for these situations. A æFire allÆ button--that can be mapped--would simply be the equivalent of pressing fire on all weapons nearly simultaneously, but from a single UI button or hotkey. This will allow one to fire various guns and launchers without their having to be identical or loaded with identical ammo. It will also not fire turrets at destroyed targets. Moreover, you get added functionality while still being able to see individual heat readouts, etc. The æChange AllÆ will be slightly more trickery to implement, but it should not be a real problem. When you right click on a turret or launcher you can choose to æChange AllÆ and then choose the new ammo type. This will change the ammo in every turret or launcher, respectively, to the chosen type. Even if you had a mixed load (e.g. Phased Plasma in 2 guns, and Fusion in 3 guns), once you used the æChange AllÆ option to swap to another ammo type, lets say Barrage, all turrets on the ship would change to Barrage. If you had two types of turrets (e.g. hybrids and lasers or alternatively Artillery and Autocanons), only turrets of the same type would reload, but it would not be necessary that all guns be of the same tier (e.g. you could change the ammo in 425mm and 220mm autocannos at the same time). Again, I realize that this would not enhance performance, but it will give players more options, and it is a bit more fair to pilots who fit split weapons systems and/or mixed tiers.
Feriluce Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.24 20:39:00 - [82] Quote: However not everybody seems to agree with that since I was told to ôoptimizeö something else and never touch a syringe again (I am a misunderstood genius). So instead I was assigned to take care of weapon management and grouping, which was enough work to keep me away from medical tools for a while. I nearly fell off my chair lol'ing
Mhtsos Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.25 07:54:00 - [83] Overall kudos, I'm sure lots of ppl will find it very useful, and if it reduces lag that much the better. When I read the title of the dev blog though what I imagined was a little more flexible. I know the feature is mostly desinged by now so I'll just throw a couple of ideas for "Grouping v2" for the devs to keep in the back of their heads. Group ammo-free modules freely along with weapon groups. That way I can have a target painter fire along with the missiles, or a web along with my blaster group. I'm not sure if this is something that can fit into the whole "one transaction per group" philosophy, but it will be useful even if it's client-side. I'm a drone user and I frequently want to target every turret I have on a different targeted ship. Situations where this also is useful are web groups or ECM groups. So a right-click Spread fire option on the group can automate that. Visually one big missile IS ugly, see if you can implement "robotecking" (that is all the missiles launching at different directions and then converging on the target. That takes care of the defender problem too, but I'm not sure how the server feels about it, having to "run" 8 missiles instead of one group.
Voxis	Posted - 2008.10.25 17:49:00 - [84] Awesome feature, actually. YAY.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.10.25 18:01:00 - [85] Originally by: Mhtsos Visually one big missile IS ugly, see if you can implement "robotecking" (that is all the missiles launching at different directions and then converging on the target. That takes care of the defender problem too, but I'm not sure how the server feels about it, having to "run" 8 missiles instead of one group. [/list] That can be done client-side, surely. Even if missiles are just one mega missile, visually they could be seen launching from multiple tubes, quickly converging into a cluster and heading toward the target.
Hesod Adee Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.26 02:07:00 - [86] Edited by: Hesod Adee on 26/10/2008 02:10:59 Sounds good so far, except: Quote: If the smartbomb does more damage than the individual missile hitpoints, the whole stack is destroyed, otherwise nothing happens. What happens if the missile is hit by two separate smartbombs, each doing more than 50% of the missiles hp ? Originally by: Nyphur It's been mentioned that the number of server calculations are being reduced by stacking guns and that the new supergun will be "equivalent" to the eight guns but it's very possible that something's been overlooked and the guns will not be equivalent. Testing should find these overlooked things.
Kampfkrampf	Posted - 2008.10.26 09:22:00 - [87] hm, when do you want to put it online? WANT IT NOW lol
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.10.26 09:30:00 - [88] sounds good, though i'd like it if you could make "virtual groups", where the guns would all be stacked into a group, but remain in the f1-f8 slots visually, and you have a choice to either activate them all with one shortcut, or do f1-f8 so you can fire one at a time or each on different targets etc.
Saffin	Posted - 2008.10.26 11:58:00 - [89] No advantage to users really, but are you planning to implement the same type of thing for drones. For the lag reason rather than usability increase. Although im sure there is much more involved in doing drones than guns. Saf
SeerinDarkness Minmatar An Tir Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.26 12:27:00 - [90] weapon grouping was originally nixed in beta and it was stated that it would Not be a added feature in order to promote people playing the game,and not macroing it, which with weapon grouping just got about 1000% easier. so i do not understand its addition now. and when is ccp going to nix the macroing function keyboard's that are in violation of the no macro clause, which are a source of the Lag in fleet fights from all these guys stabbing 1 button to activate 6-8 modules all at the same microsecond Game design orignaly was to prevent this, not implement it. seems like total 180 on the eve community by the implementation of this change. SeerinDarkness

Par'Gellen Gallente Tres Hombres Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.10.27 12:21:00 - [91] Originally by: IR Scoutar Let me be a bastard and ilustrate how this should be handled UI wise First we make a new button that could look like this : Link to Chribbas wonderful service please excuse the horrible shoop but im not designing the UI for you guys ... make it look like um a chain or something Then we proceed with : Giving the button the rightclick option of "Enter Grouping mode" Next folows the anti RSI function of convenience As you already stated weapons that arnt of the same type cannot be grouped together. That is why at the click of this button all those High slot modules should be grouped together into their possible groups. This could then be indicated on this button by a color and/or form change An aditional click on this button should unlink all High slot modules and set the icon back to its original state Extra merrit section : Do not just shuffle all modules into 1 icon and give it the number of modules underneth it Leave all modules inplace but add the number of the GROUP they belong to (facilitating thermodynamics monitoring and i want to see my gun mentality) similarly have the ui respond to the standard F button layout e.g. guns from f1-f6 neuts f7-f8 any f button from f1 to f6 could then activate the weapon group (remember unlinking is just 1 click away and manual linking is still possible) and f7 to f8 activate the neut group As an extra extra bonus weapon groups could then be dragged over to switch place with the lesser ones in 1 go instead of multiple e.g. f1-f6 goes 2 up while f7-f8 goes all the way down with the simple hold and drag of 1 item of a group (visualy you see all of them going of course) Extra extra extra tripple gold star merrit badge : Weapon staggerd activation available in the new buttons rightclick menu and other cool stuff so much for the UI feel free to use this idea i declare it open source ------------------------ Missiles: should never be of the im a giant missile type thats just not right in so many ways THIS!
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.10.27 22:23:00 - [92] Originally by: SeerinDarkness weapon grouping was originally nixed in beta and it was stated that it would Not be a added feature in order to promote people playing the game,and not macroing it, which with weapon grouping just got about 1000% easier. so i do not understand its addition now. They officially declared the use of the G15 keyboard macro to assign F1-F8 to one key as not macroing and perfectly game-legal. Adding it as a feature is basically the same thing for people without a G15 and it allows some nice lag-reducing server-side optimisations. It's kind of how warp-to-zero was implemented due to the proliferation of instajump bookmark sets. Since a lot of people had the bookmarks, implementing it as a feature didn't change much except to remove them as a requirement for effective gameplay and reduce lag significantly. It's all good.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2008.10.28 12:30:00 - [93] Edited by: Tonto Auri on 28/10/2008 12:34:22 Originally by: CCP Ytterbium This is technically what is this design achieving at the time being. You group modules of the same type which is activated with one button. You save F2-F8 shortcut for other module activation, which is very convenient for quick keyboard access. On a more general picture, the point was not only to provide more player usability by allowing commands to be applied to several modules but also help with general performance. Honestly, I can't see this as usability improvement. Quote: We went for the current UI approach because having grouped modules shown in a "row link" instead of stack would have cluttered the module UI too much and not provide the free shortcut advantage explained before. Display it in column link... (That is, scale stacked modules upward) Right now, <-- this is BAD. For people who are color- (red-) blind, it reads as "880 ammo". Please consider more clear indication of grouped weapon. Quote: Yes you can if all limitations listed in the Blog are respected (no ammo, same exact type, same state). Just hold shift then drag and drop the modules and here you go. You cannot clear all groups with one button, just right-click each and select "Clear group" instead. Come on, it is only a few extra more clicks . And this is wrong also in usability terms. If I have 3x 720mm Gallium, 2x 720mm Protorype on my myrm, it going to be not less than 2 groups, and if I was lucky looting pair of 720mm Scouts, it's going to be 3 groups, unless I sell these scouts and forget about 'em. Arguments, why shall I do that? And for the record, what blocking you from allowing *US, PLAYERS use grouping at will? If it can be grouped in server-side terms - let client use "server grouping". If it can not - let client divide it to smaller server groups, but DONT say "we have server restrictions applied to client" - this is flawed! Only real restriction ON CLIENT could be "the same ammo type", effectively allowing grouping of all T1 guns of the same ammo size, removing all these unnecessary complications AT CLIENT SIDE. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.28 19:02:00 - [94] Edited by: Matthew on 28/10/2008 19:02:06 Originally by: Tonto Auri Display it in column link... (That is, scale stacked modules upward) Right now, <-- this is BAD. For people who are color- (red-) blind, it reads as "880 ammo". Please consider more clear indication of grouped weapon. Column link would still eat up a lot of screen real-estate. For this particular gripe, surely just right-aligning the ammo count and left-aligning the stack count would put enough space between the two for it to read as two different numbers?
Grismar Gallente The Establishment	Posted - 2008.10.31 09:34:00 - [95] Clearly, I am not the only one who thinks this is overly complicated. All people ever wanted was a few customizable buttons added to the interface that would perform the same function as pressing a set of buttons. This wouldn't have to entail any more than adding a row of smaller group icons above the guns, some way to configure these icons (which of the max 8 highslots is the button mapped to?) and some simple code that executes the same actions people were performing by hand before. In fact, this simple solution would still lower server load, since only a single interaction will now travel from client to server, losing some of the possible overhead. Whether or not the simultaneous firing of the guns is dealt with cleverly server-side is not something you need to bother your users with. And we certainly don't need it showing in the interface. This solution is really poorly designed and I would hate to see it ingame. A bit disappointing, for a feature request that has been around since Beta. Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator
zeho Amarr DIVINE DIVIDE	Posted - 2008.10.31 15:12:00 - [96] Opps! I think I speak for the majority of people when I ask; "You're kidding right?" Why would you (finally) address a clunky UI issue with another one? We don't need "restrictions", we want easier/faster control without having to sacrifice module visability. Add ammo changes to the rack (in addition to the reload we curently have) and leave the whole "grouping" thing as a optional way of management. Loosing visability on modules and loosing the ability to activate individual mods is too big a drawback. Please ensure the following: Ability to stack/expand mods regardless of Group. Ability to Group without stacking. Ability to Group different types of weapons. Ability to change/reload ammo types in and out of Groups. Having to "Group" weapons just to gain the ability to change ammo type is harsh. Just give us that ability first, then tell us about Grouping.
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.31 15:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Grismar Clearly, I am not the only one who thinks this is overly complicated. All people ever wanted was a few customizable buttons added to the interface that would perform the same function as pressing a set of buttons. This wouldn't have to entail any more than adding a row of smaller group icons above the guns, some way to configure these icons (which of the max 8 highslots is the button mapped to?) and some simple code that executes the same actions people were performing by hand before. That would require a propper funktional and clever UI not that assortment of windows upon windows or if you dont like windows you can always RSI yourself to death with rightclick menus i think the "ship info" thingie where the module controls are at took some special doing even so modifying that is even harder .. only a guess thou Originally by: Grismar In fact, this simple solution would still lower server load, since only a single interaction will now travel from client to server, losing some of the possible overhead. Whether or not the simultaneous firing of the guns is dealt with cleverly server-side is not something you need to bother your users with. And we certainly don't need it showing in the interface. naah that doesnt work that way.... to lower the server load you need to do exactly what they did UI and the actual comands going to the server are 2 diffrent things what the server does with it is even more diffrent to what goes on or so it should be... unfortunatly it isnt, its very much a programmers UI
x psy	Posted - 2008.11.01 20:52:00 - [98] Weapon Grouping = GOOD Uber missile = BAD
Furian Giaume Warhead Delivery Systems	Posted - 2008.11.03 18:00:00 - [99] I got on Sisi and tested this functionality, and I must say it rocks! Having the eight lasers on my Coercer grouped to F1 is 'nice to have' for firing purposes, but where it REALLY shines is switching ammo. I simply don't change ammo during fights in the current system as it's too tedious and slow while busy with everything else going on. With the weapons grouped, changing ammo is easy and quite doable during battle; especially for lasers since they change crystals so quickly compared to other ammo types. Only glitch I noticed is that sometimes the grouped weapon button would continuously flash, like when reloading ammo, even when it wasn't loading ammo. Had to empty ammo and reload it again to stop the flashing.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2008.11.04 20:23:00 - [100] Originally by: Matthew Column link would still eat up a lot of screen real-estate. I'd say, it will eat not more than half of module circle size upward. I didn't mean exactly placing circles one over another, but something like "(O))))" (in either direction) would be clear enough to be useful, and I really don't mind if i can't see if I have it indicating all 8 of my grouped guns or only four. -- Thanks CCP for cu

ShadowRat	Posted - 2008.11.05 09:26:00 - [101] Now please hear my SCREAM IN THE VOID... I'm drone user - why you dont allow weapon grouping for DRONES! Now in fight i must choose target, choose drones to attack, manage to right click on it, choose order... and do it for 1! single attack and for keeping drones in line. There is plenty moments that you can make mistake or just wrong timing. Efect of this is that you loose you main weapon very easy. Compare it to rack of any type of guns, missile launchers... choose target - press button or now just 1 button. Please - make eg 1 buton for group that I can attach one order 'atack', or just button for this order to each drone... Nothing more. Thx for hearing this. Have nice day.
Suitonia Gallente interimo	Posted - 2008.11.05 11:06:00 - [102] Hey shadowrat you realise you can assign a 'all drones attack' hotkey from the shortcuts setting on the ESC menu right?
xaja	Posted - 2008.11.06 03:10:00 - [103] Edited by: xaja on 06/11/2008 03:14:59 Edited by: xaja on 06/11/2008 03:13:23 an excellent effort! We've been waiting long and patiently... It seems the only real drawback are missiles against smart bombs, cause basically, if you've worked out a nice launch rythm to make it impossible to smart bomb a whole volley, missile people have to always ungroup their launchers before going to pvp. UNLESS you add that other guy's suggestion, wich was a really good idea: Weapon staggerd activation available in the new buttons rightclick menu that is the best idea I saw in this whole thread :) with the other aspects, I prefer how you've done it, more free F1 keys is just too good! ... _____________________________________ I'm Paper; Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
Captian Firelog	Posted - 2008.11.08 01:10:00 - [104] Weapon grouping seems kinda lame, but whatever. Patch in general seems to be one of the lamest so far, total lack of content compared to the other major patches. Meh....
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.11.10 04:41:00 - [105] Excellent! Now titans might have to fit cpaital weaponry rather than smartbombs LOL (doubts it) EVE history Missiles post-nerf
TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:52:00 - [106] how do i group/stack the high slot modules ???? CCP made little baby jesus cry by nerfing ghost training
Legendary Demon	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:28:00 - [107] Originally by: Chribba Grouping Mining Lasers please!
Arissa Truard	Posted - 2008.11.14 05:04:00 - [108] Since the release I tried grouping other fittings thinking it would be nice to say pair my Armor Reppers, Hardeners etc. I know it may be to late to request them be aloud to be grouped as well but for those of us who mainly run missions and like to keep said things always on it would be nice to be able to set a single key for them all. Even for PVPers it would be handy so after jumping through a gate, undocking, etc. yo can tap a key and on comes your defenses.
Bytaless	Posted - 2008.11.14 16:43:00 - [109] How about the posibility to group similar mining lasers and strip miners. Say i have 8 miners II on my 8 slot mining ship. I want to group them all toghther so that i wont have to push f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f8 every time i need to mine ?
haz bro Caldari Doom Guard Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.11.15 11:39:00 - [110] it does't work 100% for amarr with faction or T2 crystal. When you burn out a crystal and for example try to put in a new one that is still repackeged it will not install. If you run out of a surtain type and come one short for example that whole group becomes useless and you can't fire them at all, and have to ungroup it.

WheatGrass Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.31 15:16:00 - [111] It seems that being able to take an entire group offline at once rather than unloading the group, breaking the grouping, and then putting each individual turret offline (in space) would result in improved cluster performance and an happy WheatGrass. I'm interested in this ability for the sake of quick repair turn around times. Please consider. Thank you. Thank you, also, for the weapon grouping feature. I'm getting much use out of it.


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