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Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.10.28 20:31:00 - [151] Originally by: Clansworth I was refering to the Orca being built at market component prices. Even then you're off. Unless prices have spiked today since I haven't been in game all day. Most of the cap parts used were only netting 2%-4% over mineral cost.
argolighthand	Posted - 2008.10.29 04:43:00 - [152] I can see the sense in the mining foreman skill, but as it doesnt not mine i feel mining barge 5 is a waste, another irrelevant skill to eat up time. Many may disagree but i think for the length of time we have waited we deserve to be credited with time served. The new skill should be sufficient.
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.10.29 04:59:00 - [153] Originally by: argolighthand I can see the sense in the mining foreman skill, but as it doesnt not mine i feel mining barge 5 is a waste, another irrelevant skill to eat up time. Many may disagree but i think for the length of time we have waited we deserve to be credited with time served. The new skill should be sufficient. Look on the bright side, you don't have to do Astro 5 But I agree, Mining Barge 5 is bit silly
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.10.29 13:22:00 - [154] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Chomapuraku what kind of build cost are we looking at for this thing? i heard whispers of 400 mil? can a cap builder give an estimate? 360 at current mineral prices. Expect prices around 500-800 (800 for the early adopters) with prices coming down to 400 within a month or two, easily. I already have enough cap parts in stock to crank out 10 of them. I doubt 400 anytime. Simply because its not worth it. And you rather build carriers, dreads, freighters and rorqs. or anything else..T1 cruisers or whatever. 400mio is around 200mio prift..a month. for 2 manufactoring slots running 24/7 and 6 others running around 25%. Pretty bad for the investment. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Sir EkeEkeFtang	Posted - 2008.10.29 13:24:00 - [155] Edited by: Sir EkeEkeFtang on 29/10/2008 13:23:57 Originally by: Kabeil Blackdawn Originally by: Elhina Novae So what Capital Ship Components will be required to build this? At me 0 Capital Capacitor Battery 9 Capital Cargo Bay 37 Capital Computer system 7 Capital Construction parts 15 Capital sensor Cluster 4 Capital Ship maintenance bay 7 The bpo is on the market on sisi Why does this list seem incomplete?(including the probable Corp Hanger) Where are the Capital Armour Plates and Capital Propulsion Engines? All other ships have these basic components?
Kalderion Mar	Posted - 2008.10.29 16:53:00 - [156] Aye, not to mention Shield emitter, Drone bay and power generator.....
Heraku Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.29 18:25:00 - [157] Originally by: Sir EkeEkeFtang Why does this list seem incomplete?(including the probable Corp Hanger) Where are the Capital Armour Plates and Capital Propulsion Engines? All other ships have these basic components? For the same reason Freighters dont need no shield emitter or capital computers etc etc... It get's to expensive
Sir EkeEkeFtang	Posted - 2008.10.29 18:28:00 - [158] Aye thats true, but no engines..... it no go very fast
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.29 18:53:00 - [159] Originally by: Kalderion Mar Aye, not to mention Shield emitter, Drone bay and power generator..... It has sub-capital shields / powergrid / drones ;) Freighters don't need many propulsion units and they're a lot bigger. Not that 1-2 couldn't hurt. (aside from making this ship far more complicated than it really should be). Corp Hangar They noted was missing and were looking at adding 4 to the build requirements. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Clansworth (un-researched, so build cost around 550mil) Un-researched build cost at current mineral index prices is 376m You're missing the 4 Capital Corp Hangar Array components Chronotis said they were looking at adding. I think that might be the reason for the discrepancy. Originally by: argolighthand I can see the sense in the mining foreman skill, but as it doesnt not mine i feel mining barge 5 is a waste, another irrelevant skill to eat up time. Many may disagree but i think for the length of time we have waited we deserve to be credited with time served. The new skill should be sufficient. The Rorqual doesn't mine either and it also requires 'mining barge V' if they renamed the mining barge skill to 'ORE Ships' that make everyone happy ? It DOES give out bonuses to MINING gang links. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Leumas Kharzim Amarr Intaki Armaments	Posted - 2008.10.29 22:54:00 - [160] Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: argolighthand I can see the sense in the mining foreman skill, but as it doesnt not mine i feel mining barge 5 is a waste, another irrelevant skill to eat up time. Many may disagree but i think for the length of time we have waited we deserve to be credited with time served. The new skill should be sufficient. The Rorqual doesn't mine either and it also requires 'mining barge V' if they renamed the mining barge skill to 'ORE Ships' that make everyone happy ? The mining barge skill is the closest thing they have to an ORE faction skill train. It makes perfect sense that it would be required at level V for an ORE ship. It would make it less confusing to rename it, though.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.10.30 06:07:00 - [161] Originally by: Sir EkeEkeFtang Edited by: Sir EkeEkeFtang on 29/10/2008 13:23:57 Originally by: Kabeil Blackdawn Originally by: Elhina Novae So what Capital Ship Components will be required to build this? At me 0 Capital Capacitor Battery 9 Capital Cargo Bay 37 Capital Computer system 7 Capital Construction parts 15 Capital sensor Cluster 4 Capital Ship maintenance bay 7 The bpo is on the market on sisi Why does this list seem incomplete?(including the probable Corp Hanger) Where are the Capital Armour Plates and Capital Propulsion Engines? All other ships have these basic components? It seems to me the armor and shields are rather weak compared to the hull. It seems to me ORE is cutting costs by armoring the ships with paper mache and using surplus cruiser shields. -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Mad Crafter Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2008.10.30 07:14:00 - [162] Originally by: Lord Fitz Corp Hangar They noted was missing and were looking at adding 4 to the build requirements. Sis was just updated, and that's added to the build costs. All other costs un-changed. Although it can now fit 3 gang links. I don't know if this was changed earlier, but it's new to me.
McFly C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.30 07:37:00 - [163] Changes on SiSi Skill Reqs now require Mining Director I 4th Mid Slot added 40,000m3 Corp Hangar There may be more but that's what I noticed, they also updated the mirror so if u had trained up to fly the orca well, you'll have to do it again, which is what my characters are up to at the moment to get back into it and play some more. As soon as I can I'll check to see if Freighters can pull from it or not with the new changes. Also the Transport changes are live on SiSi.
Krylon Rhae	Posted - 2008.10.30 07:46:00 - [164] Thanks for the update McFly. BTW... did they change the cap recharge rate?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.10.30 12:25:00 - [165] Originally by: Mad Crafter Originally by: Lord Fitz Corp Hangar They noted was missing and were looking at adding 4 to the build requirements. Sis was just updated, and that's added to the build costs. All other costs un-changed. Although it can now fit 3 gang links. I don't know if this was changed earlier, but it's new to me. Can't get into the test server until much later today. Whats the base amount for the Corp Hanger?
Riame	Posted - 2008.10.30 16:46:00 - [166] It's still a good point that all Command ships which require BC 5, are still capable of... you know... shooting guns. That the Orca requires Mining Barge 5 to me indicates it should at least have some mining capabilities. If it's intended as a command post, it would almost make more sense to just open a new ORE Industrial Platform skill, with a similar tier to Industrials. Or give it a drone bay and allow it to fit some sort of mining harvester! But the notion that it's a glorified ore dump is sort of troubling. I don't think this thing will ever be used flying back as forth, so I'm less concerned with it's cargo space. I'd rather see it have ~8000 m3 cargo space, like a hulk, increased range to it's tbeams, ability to house mining harvesters, a 5 stack of which mine, say 800-1000 m3 ore a minute.
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.10.30 17:23:00 - [167] Its a Command / Hauler/ anti jet can stealing ship, not just a big ass hulk. Was never CCP's intention to make another ship to strip the belt faster than Hulk, when you read everything posted about the Orca
McFly C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.30 19:36:00 - [168] Edited by: McFly on 30/10/2008 19:37:58 Am I the only one that understands why CCP will never give us a ship that can mine any faster than a Hulk? For all the morons that want a strip miner toting mega hauler so they can macro the ** out of it..... If CCP allowed people to solo mine any faster than they can currently minerals markets would be flooded. So what did they do? they gave you a ship that can help you mine more easier when u work together with other people. (Or have lots of accounts) Mineral Markets dont need a 3 Itty V's cargo, a tank and with mining lasers afk in every highsec belt chewing through veldspar all damn day. So they gave us the orca, something new for miners and etc to play with, while not destroying the mineral balance. If you haven't figured it out yet, u make the orca into a super miner/hauler and it there's no point in macromining anymore, mineral prices will crash so hard that you will literally not be able to sell any mins for profit. So quit *ing about it not being a mining ship, it was never going to be a mining ship. Which is why everyone has called it the Rorqual's Little Brother... anyone here gonna tell me the Rorqual is a mining ship? Quit your ***ing and be happy with what they are giving us. Also mining changes are on the horizon, so this may fit in that even better than we realize now. --McFly--
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.10.30 19:41:00 - [169] Well said
Krylon Rhae	Posted - 2008.10.31 03:59:00 - [170] Originally by: McFly Edited by: McFly on 30/10/2008 19:37:58 Am I the only one that understands why CCP will never give us a ship that can mine any faster than a Hulk? For all the morons that want a strip miner toting mega hauler so they can macro the ** out of it..... If CCP allowed people to solo mine any faster than they can currently minerals markets would be flooded. So what did they do? they gave you a ship that can help you mine more easier when u work together with other people. (Or have lots of accounts) Mineral Markets dont need a 3 Itty V's cargo, a tank and with mining lasers afk in every highsec belt chewing through veldspar all damn day. So they gave us the orca, something new for miners and etc to play with, while not destroying the mineral balance. If you haven't figured it out yet, u make the orca into a super miner/hauler and it there's no point in macromining anymore, mineral prices will crash so hard that you will literally not be able to sell any mins for profit. So quit *ing about it not being a mining ship, it was never going to be a mining ship. Which is why everyone has called it the Rorqual's Little Brother... anyone here gonna tell me the Rorqual is a mining ship? Quit your ***ing and be happy with what they are giving us. Also mining changes are on the horizon, so this may fit in that even better than we realize now. --McFly-- /this, in spades
Chomapuraku Caldari Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.31 05:09:00 - [171] Originally by: Vigilant Its a Command / Hauler/ anti jet can stealing ship, not just a big ass hulk. at first glance, i missed the "anti" in "anti jet can stealing ship." then i started to get ebil thoughts i wonder if you're gonna have some intrepid industrialists using it to rob carebears with full jetcans. i can just imagine the look on that osprey-miner's face (and the harsh words in local) when a huge ship lands next to him and his jetcan that he spent an hour filling disappears. or the incomprehensible but fiery engrish in local when four jetcans filled by a macro-miner vanish all at once to one of these robber barons (my term for an industrial pirate. i made it up. me. :P)
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.31 05:15:00 - [172] Originally by: Chomapuraku four jetcans filled by a macro-miner vanish Unfortunately macroers no longer do this :( They used to when hulks were out of their price range, but these days they all just use hulks and macro warp back to station with a full load (usually ice mining). Even though this earns them less than having a setup that would get them more yield/hr. This is guaranteed income, which when they scale it over hundreds of accounts is more valuable to them. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Krylon Rhae	Posted - 2008.10.31 05:40:00 - [173] Edited by: Krylon Rhae on 31/10/2008 05:41:12 Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: Chomapuraku four jetcans filled by a macro-miner vanish Unfortunately macroers no longer do this :( They used to when hulks were out of their price range, but these days they all just use hulks and macro warp back to station with a full load (usually ice mining). Even though this earns them less than having a setup that would get them more yield/hr. This is guaranteed income, which when they scale it over hundreds of accounts is more valuable to them. Yeppers... I was out scouting belts in The Citadel yesterday and entered an Ice Field. There were at least a dozen hulks ice mining so I perched and watched for awhile and they were doing exactly that... filling up and returning to station. The other thing I noticed is that someone had sacrificed an ibis to get Concord circling around. The name of the sacrificial lamb was "Ikillhulks"
Aiden Bismuth Gallente Die Boeremag	Posted - 2008.10.31 06:37:00 - [174] I like the way CCP are heading with the Orca, it is definitely going on my shopping list, or, more likely, my corp's list!. And, it's also going on my skillplan once they add it to EVEMon, but seen as I'm a month away from a Hulk, on a combinded Hulk/Mining Director skillplan, I won't need too many extra skills I see. This is one ship that I am really looking forward to. Regards, AB
CALUGARU Repo Industries Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2008.10.31 13:11:00 - [175] The real Orca is in my signature. The one CCP posted is FAKE! ______________ The new Orca:
Mzilikazi Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.31 17:27:00 - [176] Okay its a start but it is unworthy of the +/-500mill investment in its current form: Cargo Capacity - with max skills and fitting 120k/m3 is simply not enough - for efficient mining operations the main aim would be to avoid having to dock the Orca for a substantial period - a few hulks will fill 120m3 in no time flat (also, if I'm not mistaken, this means a gang/alts lose the mining link/gang bonuses of the Orca pilot when he docs - which will just be a constant pain) we need a higher base cargo capacity for effective mining ops - otherwise carebears may as well just stick to flipping jet cans and then hauling the ore to station every 2-3 hours with rigged t2 transport ships. If the concern here is that the Orca could usurp the role of the Freighter if its cargo capacity is too high, there must surely be ways of making sure that Orcas are more suited to mining ops than long distance haulage. One idea, perhaps the devs could consider is to put a penalty on the Orca so that it can't use jumpgates if fitted with Cargo Expanders or Cargo Rigs?? That way you have to use a freighter to haul vast quantities of ore between systems? Another penalty could be that it has an "Orehold" rather than a Cargohold so that only ore can be carried leaving the hauling of other bulky things to freighters. The main advantage of the 'empire based' Orca over a freighter should be the ability to stockpile as much ore as 2-4 well fitted hulks (boosted with mining link/gang bonuses) can mine in 3-4 hours (uncompressed btw, so that only once or twice in a long operation does the Orca need unloading at a local station. It should be an aid to efficiency otherwise may as well just have another hulk in gang.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.10.31 18:01:00 - [177] Having spent about 6 hours testing the Orca so far, this is the best possible scenario myself and 7 others came up with and in doing so we're able to bring the ship to bear on what we think its intended purpose is. low/null Park Rorq at POS or SS in system. Gang with Orca at belt along with one Hauler (we used an ittyV although Im sure others would use a DST or something or other) and 4 hulks. Orca tractors in cans as hulks dump them. Hauler makes runs between Orca and Rorq and Nearby station. Doing this we had a decent chain going for about 3 hours before we decided to move onto other test scenarios. Its a system that works extraordinarily well. Empire Similar, one difference being we used the belts without a station present and no Rorq obviously. The itty made runs between the Orca and the nearest station a few jumps away. While it doesn't change the whole mining process all that much on the miners end, aside from the gang bonus, it did make the job of the hauler a hell of lot easier and we actually needed less effort from him. The hulk pilots found it comforting that they had a wide range to work in (although even before its not like you were restricted that much anyway) since just about every ship had a single jump in point at the orca. Its obvious that this ship isn't going to replace the jet can mining of your small ops, but it will ease logistics of your large corporate operations.
Krylon Rhae	Posted - 2008.11.01 05:03:00 - [178] Kazzac... thanks for the tips. BTW... how close to the Orca do you need to be to interface with the hanger bay? 1500m or up to 5000 m2?
Fartarse Minmatar UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.11.01 20:31:00 - [179] I'm glad other people started to look at the build components, I was beginning to think that it was only me who thought that it didn't add up correctly. In reality, a freighter doesn't need many sorts of components as it is basically a flying box, albeit a very big one. Since you cannot fit any module on it, it doesn't really require all the normal ship components. The Orca however is a different story. It can be fitted and as such should reflect that in the components required to build it. In a straight pound for pound comparison with a Rorqual, I came up with the following build list. 2x Armor Plates (6900 Armor HP) 1x Capacitor Battery (4,200 Capacitor) 17x Cargo Bay (30,000m3) 15x Computer System (430 CPU) 8x Construction Parts (46,000 Structure HP - i know, this one is a bit ropey to say the least) 23x Corporate Hangar Bay (40,000m3) 2x Drone Bay (75m3) 1x Power Generator (960 Powergrid) 2x Propulsion Engine (Total Mass / Max. Speed) 2x Sensor Cluster (various electronics systems) 1x Shield Emitter (10,750 Shield HP) 13x Ship Maintenance Bay (400,000m3) This gives a total of 86x Components which is only 3 more (about 15 Million ISK) than the current requirements from Sisi, so still places it in roughly the same CTP bracket. And, imho, gives more credibility to the specifications and abilities of the ship. Now, I can't really see CCP going for some of those 1x or 2x unit items, but they could easily juggle some around from those larger run ones to balance it up a little.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.11.02 02:44:00 - [180] Originally by: Fartarse In a straight pound for pound comparison with a Rorqual, I came up with the following build list. If you do a pound for pound comparison to say a cruiser or BS. You find the Orca doesn't have any more drone bay and grid etc than one of those. So that it should require capital components at all (even 1) for non-capital spec items, is silly. It is not a complete capital ship. Some parts of it are (corp hangar / ship maint /cargo etc). But it does not have the drone bay (or bonus) or grid, or defenses etc (rorqual can fit capital mods, Orca can not fit ANY capital mods). Clearly CCP are trying to make it not too complicated to build considering it is only a 400m ship. A freighter which costs twice as much only has 4 components, and the Orca already has 7. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster

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