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Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.11.06 04:08:00 - [91] Originally by: Strill Say what? I don't quite understand how you got that. An AC Tempest does less DPS than a blaster mega even at optimal range, and even if you take base resistances into account and let the tempest exploit the target's resistance hole. Why exactly are autocannons better off than blasters? I hope you're a troll, but if you're not... You're one of those nasty eft warriors who care about nothing other than max dps you can shell out. Once you accept that the mega has the hardest time coming even close to its eft dps and look at the fact that the tempest can fit the dual webs and dual large neuts you start to see that the tempest will actually be able to handle itself in an engagement vs a ship smaller than itself... Where as the mega will just get violently molested by everything. WOOPEE!!
asiofjioaewf	Posted - 2008.11.06 04:11:00 - [92] Edited by: asiofjioaewf on 06/11/2008 04:11:13 mis-post
Strill	Posted - 2008.11.06 04:19:00 - [93] Edited by: Strill on 06/11/2008 04:24:16 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: Strill Say what? I don't quite understand how you got that. An AC Tempest does less DPS than a blaster mega even at optimal range, and even if you take base resistances into account and let the tempest exploit the target's resistance hole. Why exactly are autocannons better off than blasters? I hope you're a troll, but if you're not... You're one of those nasty eft warriors who care about nothing other than max dps you can shell out. Once you accept that the mega has the hardest time coming even close to its eft dps Other than webs and neuts, why does the mega have a harder time doing its EFT dps than the tempest? Quote: and look at the fact that the tempest can fit the dual webs and dual large neuts you start to see that the tempest will actually be able to handle itself in an engagement vs a ship smaller than itself... Where as the mega will just get violently molested by everything. WOOPEE!! Well if you're gonna reduce the tempest's EHP and DPS like that by using mid-slots for dual-webs and high slots for neuts then you can just fly a hyperion and drop two guns for neuts to get even better results than the tempest.
Lexx Phoebus Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.06 04:38:00 - [94] The main sticking point for me is not the nerf itself, nor what it is doing to the ships i love but the fact that it is happening in the first place; it displays a rather large amount of ignorance on the devs part.
Loki Farseer Live and Let Die Unlimited	Posted - 2008.11.06 04:51:00 - [95] Lexx also hit the other side of the problem.. In my job.. if I screwed up a system as badly as they just did and said, Mr. Customer you should adapt, change, suck up the training you are losing and just get on with it... I'd be fired and my company outta business. I'm not leaving the game, I'm adapting... but if the dev's are this disconnected from reality.. I honestly fear for EVE.
Lusian	Posted - 2008.11.06 05:11:00 - [96] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Strill Originally by: VJ Maverick HULKING SOLO BS's (blaster or otherwise) are dead, as they should be. And why is that? Primarily because an attacking solo battleship will have a very hard time catching anything that doesn't want to fight. At the same, a defending solo battleship will be much more vulnerable to smaller, more agile ships. Here here
Lusian	Posted - 2008.11.06 05:36:00 - [97] I can say this. I am a blaster pilot. I will continue to use them. I am not the most agressive pilot in eve and that is mainly because i exercise caution all the same. If i can keep my enemy at range and webbed or scrambled. I might just need to use a scrambler, unless the scrambler does not reduce your speed like the webber does in the comeing patch. Then it will do exactly what it was built for. to shut down the MWD. Since most pilots use an mwd. I just shut it down and they're goes my enamies chance to escape. I dont have great skills. But i know my moduels. That said, If you are smart and made enough mistakes then you can accomlish what you set out to do 50 % of the time.
Leon vanUber	Posted - 2008.11.06 05:41:00 - [98] Originally by: Lusian I can say this. I am a blaster pilot. I will continue to use them. I am not the most agressive pilot in eve and that is mainly because i exercise caution all the same. If i can keep my enemy at range and webbed or scrambled. I might just need to use a scrambler, unless the scrambler does not reduce your speed like the webber does in the comeing patch. Then it will do exactly what it was built for. to shut down the MWD. Since most pilots use an mwd. I just shut it down and they're goes my enamies chance to escape. I dont have great skills. But i know my moduels. That said, If you are smart and made enough mistakes then you can accomlish what you set out to do 50 % of the time. and what will you sacrifice for the warp scrambler - the web (without it your tracking will be really bad > low damage), the disruptor (people will just warp out), your propulsion mod (blasters fight in melee range, you need a mwd to get in range at all) or your cap booster ()? It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight.
Hans Angry Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.06 05:44:00 - [99] they arent changing it so you can adapt, they are killing the ships in general. you wont be able to adapt to the ship, because it will be **. if maybe they nerfed it a lot less so it brings the blaster boats onto the same level of other ships, that would be something. but killing the entire class is just stupid on behalf of ccp. sorry ccp, but sometimes, you guys are just plain dumb as . but hey another point to bring in about blaster ships, look at the optimal and falloff of blaster boats, and look at the optimal and fall off of other ships. blaster boats arent the 1 vs 1 automatic win machines, they only are if you **ed up and let them get close enough to be such. so why dont you learn how to play, and why dont you adapt to the way eve is currently, and why dont you stop whining about crap that isnt broken. not my fault you dont know how to play, leave blaster boats alone, no matter how much people that dont know how to play whine. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Hameska	Posted - 2008.11.06 09:48:00 - [100] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Traderboz Oh well. Got to say, Warhammer is treating em well, haha. Liang/crew, if you guys still read this, how's your alliance (boooo) characters going? Recently hit 40 on my marauder and having a blast with it, haha. What server are you guys on again? Ok, enough derailing. I'm still on Iron Rock, but between my internet going down at home and the mandatory overtime at work I haven't had time to play as much as I'd like. I restarted on Iron Rock with Liang (SW), and she's still in T1. I was gonna push her to T2 last night but... my freaking internet went down again. Blah. Life on a farm I guess? -Liang SW is a little gimp atm, but with the new patch coming out you should be seeing lots of buffs. Hopefully Bright Wizards also get a bit of a nerf, haha, which would also help to make you more competitive. T2 is pretty fun, especially if you have some good AOE moves. Temple pops all the time, at least on my server, and it's a very packed map. Did I mention goons are on my server?
Lana Lanee Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.06 10:06:00 - [101] question. if i understand correctly only the +2 scrambler will turn off the mwd at 7.5 km? :S that kind of sucks, why would i need to do that when having the **** dual webbed will help me more then to turn of its mwd...
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.06 11:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Hameska SW is a little gimp atm, To be honest, I find them to be made of pure pwnage in T1/T2. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.06 11:35:00 - [103] Originally by: Lana Lanee question. if i understand correctly only the +2 scrambler will turn off the mwd at 7.5 km? :S that kind of sucks, why would i need to do that when having the **** dual webbed will help me more then to turn of its mwd... Scrambler + web slows you down much more then 2xweb. Also, scramblers work at 9km (10.8km overheated). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.11.06 13:34:00 - [104] I've solved the blasterthron problem... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.11.06 21:17:00 - [105] Originally by: Strill Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: Strill Say what? I don't quite understand how you got that. An AC Tempest does less DPS than a blaster mega even at optimal range, and even if you take base resistances into account and let the tempest exploit the target's resistance hole. Why exactly are autocannons better off than blasters? I hope you're a troll, but if you're not... You're one of those nasty eft warriors who care about nothing other than max dps you can shell out. Once you accept that the mega has the hardest time coming even close to its eft dps Other than webs and neuts, why does the mega have a harder time doing its EFT dps than the tempest? A mega with null gets better range than a tempest with EMP, gets slightly better tracking even with null, and even does more Damage while still devoting two high slots to dual heavy neuts. It also gets more EHP. Dude you are doing it wrong - do not bring logic into play. These guys are hurting - deeply. Their emotions are over-running and the last thing they want to face is logic. Having gone completely emo over R.I.P blaster ships do you think they don't want to hear that it is not the case cause then they have to face up to how emo they are behaving. A serious question - how well does an Armageddon track at 2k's? I re-read the tracking guide a couple of days back and the charts seem to indicate that if your optimal is out about 15k you are going to have trouble tracking at 2k's. My alt can fly an Armageddon but with only 3 mids, questionable in close tracking, and EM based damage (fear the EANM omni tank) I'm not so sure they are going to replace Mega's for our style of warfare. Suposidly it is hard right now to get up close to pwn people in the face yet its what TOW do time and again vs non-nano opponents. It will get a little harder but not much. Call comes from covert pilot: "Warp to me at 20k and you should land right on top of the targets." "Ok jump and re-approach targets on the gate." "Undock now, primary is the Mega just off our undock point." These are common examples of how we start combats. In the first and third case achieving optimal range is easy. In the second it will take longer after the patch but as you only need to get to about 6k to pwn face 60% webs and ~10k warp scramblers are not going to stop you doing this. We need to get close together to remote rep so an Armageddon faces the same need to close up when jumping through a gate to attack an enemy gang - it still has to get back to the gate to join the remote rep huddle sitting on top of the enemy. Despite the claims of some in this thread right now in low sec Mega's are common ships of uber pwnage in small gang warfare. We compete with other pirate groups for our survival and we have done so for long enough to know what BS's to fear. Armor tanked Scorps in RR gangs are n.1 on the list followed by Mega's and then Amarr BS's. This will change a bit but not to the point where Mega's suck. Right now large blasters rock in low sec. I was interested to note that despite claims blasters already have little or no place in 0.0 it seems that PL took out a Jammer and a Titan with short range BS's including Mega's fit with Blasters. Sure the Armageddons took pride of place but it seems even in 0.0 short range combat has its place.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.11.06 23:22:00 - [106] Originally by: Yakov Draken Dude you are doing it wrong - do not bring logic into play. These guys are hurting - deeply. Their emotions are over-running and the last thing they want to face is logic. Having gone completely emo over R.I.P blaster ships do you think they don't want to hear that it is not the case cause then they have to face up to how emo they are behaving. You're doing it wrong... and there's actually quite alot of solid mathematical evidence supporting their view. Of course, if it's mathematical evidence, it's not valid because it's in game. If it's in game, it's not valid because you don't have max skills. If it's not justified then it's just emotions. Quote: A serious question - how well does an Armageddon track at 2k's? You're doing it wrong - the entire advantage of the Geddon is doing blaster damage at 15km or near blaster damage to small targets at 50km. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
narccissa	Posted - 2008.11.06 23:56:00 - [107] ECM + HEAT on nonbonused BS FTW! Cmon, someone has to keep quoting the balance dev who doesn't even play the game.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.11.07 00:59:00 - [108] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Yakov Draken Dude you are doing it wrong - do not bring logic into play. These guys are hurting - deeply. . . You're doing it wrong... and there's actually quite alot of solid mathematical evidence supporting their view. Of course, if it's mathematical evidence, it's not valid because it's in game. If it's in game, it's not valid because you don't have max skills. If it's not justified then it's just emotions. Yet both the guy I quoted have given mathematical evidence and it has been ignored. Go figure. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Yakov Draken A serious question - how well does an Armageddon track at 2k's? You're doing it wrong - the entire advantage of the Geddon is doing blaster damage at 15km or near blaster damage to small targets at 50km. I know and yet the question remains important. We all know that for sitting back at 50k range pwning lasers rock. My question refers to those times when you find yourself fighting at point blank range such as in RR gangs fighting on gates. It seems to me the answer is Armageddons work great at 10-50k range but will struggle a bit at short range while the Mega is good at 20k range with null and great at short range but weak. Blasters for close Lasers for long. Who would have thunk? In low sec the lack of bubbles means a large blasters range equates fairly well with engagement ranges as you gotta point your target.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.11.07 01:43:00 - [109] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 07/11/2008 01:43:57 Originally by: Yakov Draken Yet both the guy I quoted have given mathematical evidence and it has been ignored. Go figure. There is a large body of evidence, whether it was provided by them or not. In either case, you ignore it strictly to troll. Quote: I know and yet the question remains important. We all know that for sitting back at 50k range pwning lasers rock. Yep. Quote: My question refers to those times when you find yourself fighting at point blank range such as in RR gangs fighting on gates. It seems to me the answer is Armageddons work great at 10-50k range but will struggle a bit at short range while the Mega is good at 20k range with null and great at short range but weak. Blasters for close Lasers for long. Who would have thunk? I'm glad you brought this up, because it kinda doesn't matter. Let's break it down by target (Geddon & Blasterthron) inside web range: - Frigate: Neither of you hits. - Cruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battlecruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battleship: Geddon hits, Blasterthron hits for more. Now outside of web range: - Frigate: Geddon hits, Blasterhtron misses. - Cruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battlecruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battleships: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for blasters! Quote: In low sec the lack of bubbles means a large blasters range equates fairly well with engagement ranges as you gotta point your target. No, sorry. -Liang Ed: And yes, I deliberately left off the travel time that a blaster boat will be unable to deal damage while the geddon deals full (near blaster) damage. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.07 01:55:00 - [110] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm glad you brought this up, because it kinda doesn't matter. Let's break it down by target (Geddon & Blasterthron) inside web range: - Frigate: Neither of you hits. - Cruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battlecruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battleship: Geddon hits, Blasterthron hits for more. Now outside of web range: - Frigate: Geddon hits, Blasterhtron misses. - Cruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battlecruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battleships: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for blasters! Ok lets fit the mega with rails and geddon with mega beams and nothing else and let them shoot at stuff at 150km: - Frigate: Only mega hits - Cruiser: Only mega hits - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits - Battleship: Only mega hits Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for beam lasers! You see where I'm going with this? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.11.07 02:01:00 - [111] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm glad you brought this up, because it kinda doesn't matter. Let's break it down by target (Geddon & Blasterthron) inside web range: - Frigate: Neither of you hits. - Cruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battlecruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battleship: Geddon hits, Blasterthron hits for more. Now outside of web range: - Frigate: Geddon hits, Blasterhtron misses. - Cruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battlecruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battleships: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for blasters! Ok lets fit the mega with rails and geddon with mega beams and nothing else and let them shoot at stuff at 150km: - Frigate: Only mega hits - Cruiser: Only mega hits - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits - Battleship: Only mega hits Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for beam lasers! You see where I'm going with this? Yes, it looks like you're derailing a blaster thread into a sniping thread. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Strill	Posted - 2008.11.07 02:35:00 - [112] Edited by: Strill on 07/11/2008 02:39:15 Originally by: Liang Nuren Now outside of web range: - Frigate: Geddon hits, Blasterhtron misses. - Cruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battlecruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battleships: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. And why's that? My damage graphs show a megathron with null doing just as good or better damage than the armageddon in any mid-range scenario where the target has an omni-armor tank, has a shield tank and one EM hardener, or is a MWDing cruiser or frigate. For omni-shield tanked battlecruisers and battleships, the armageddon has the advantage. As the ships get faster and smaller, however, the mega takes the advantage, even against shield tankers.
Strill	Posted - 2008.11.07 03:10:00 - [113] Edited by: Strill on 07/11/2008 03:12:12 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm glad you brought this up, because it kinda doesn't matter. Let's break it down by target (Geddon & Blasterthron) inside web range: - Frigate: Neither of you hits. - Cruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battlecruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battleship: Geddon hits, Blasterthron hits for more. Now outside of web range: - Frigate: Geddon hits, Blasterhtron misses. - Cruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battlecruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battleships: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for blasters! Ok lets fit the mega with rails and geddon with mega beams and nothing else and let them shoot at stuff at 150km: - Frigate: Only mega hits - Cruiser: Only mega hits - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits - Battleship: Only mega hits Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for beam lasers! You see where I'm going with this? Yes I do see where you're going with it. You're trolling. All you're doing is changing the subject. There's plenty of posts about all the aspects of blasters. This post addressed one particular aspect (viability compared to pulse lasers, specifically accuracy in light of similar damage output). You made the argument that pulse lasers and blasters are incomparable because of pulse lasers vastly superior range, which just leads to the question of the viability of point-blank blaster ranges. Point-blank range viability has plenty of debate in itself, however, none of it is presented in the post you quoted. So all you did was change the subject and pretended that none of the arguments against your new subject exist. Seriously, get the hell out of here. P.S. it should look like this: Quote: - Frigate: Only mega hits, but for meager damage - Cruiser: Only mega hits, but for 'meh' damage - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits. but for weaksauce damage - Battleship: Only mega hits, but for poor damage
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.11.07 06:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/11/2008 11:34:29 Originally by: Hameska SW is a little gimp atm, To be honest, I find them to be made of pure pwnage in T1/T2. Scout/Assault with HP/toughness/str/WS gear. In T4 atm they're just sort of "there" on the battlefield until I find time to kill them. Nice buffs for them next patch though, so I might actually be slightly afraid of them, haha. Who knows.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:28:00 - [115] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok lets fit the mega with rails and geddon with mega beams and nothing else and let them shoot at stuff at 150km: - Frigate: Only mega hits - Cruiser: Only mega hits - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits - Battleship: Only mega hits Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for beam lasers! You see where I'm going with this? I see that you are showing your skills in Amarr ship fitting by using a Geddon to snipe while totally ignoring the subject of the thread. Here's a free hint: Apocalypse has a bonus for large energy turret range. With beams, it nicely outranges, outdamages and outtracks Megathron. Oh, and it shoots for a bit longer before running out of cap, too. If you want to use mega beam lasers, fit them to Apocalypse. HTH, HAND. -- Gradient forum
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.07 08:35:00 - [116] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok lets fit the mega with rails and geddon with mega beams and nothing else and let them shoot at stuff at 150km: - Frigate: Only mega hits - Cruiser: Only mega hits - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits - Battleship: Only mega hits Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for beam lasers! You see where I'm going with this? Yea your bleating out irrelevant data, try the same test with a apoc..
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.07 17:16:00 - [117] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 07/11/2008 17:16:54 Originally by: Strill Edited by: Strill on 07/11/2008 03:20:26 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm glad you brought this up, because it kinda doesn't matter. Let's break it down by target (Geddon & Blasterthron) inside web range: - Frigate: Neither of you hits. - Cruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battlecruiser: Neither of you hits. - Battleship: Geddon hits, Blasterthron hits for more. Now outside of web range: - Frigate: Geddon hits, Blasterhtron misses. - Cruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battlecruiser: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. - Battleships: Geddon hits, Blasterthron misses. Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for blasters! Ok lets fit the mega with rails and geddon with mega beams and nothing else and let them shoot at stuff at 150km: - Frigate: Only mega hits - Cruiser: Only mega hits - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits - Battleship: Only mega hits Sure looks like a great engagement matrix for beam lasers! You see where I'm going with this? Yes I do see where you're going with it. You're trolling. All you're doing is changing the subject. There's plenty of posts about all the aspects of blasters. This post addressed one particular aspect (viability compared to pulse lasers, specifically accuracy). You made the argument that pulse lasers and blasters are incomparable because of their range differences, which just leads to the question of the viability of point-blank blaster ranges. Point-blank range viability has plenty of debate in itself, however, none of it is presented in the post you quoted. So all you did was change the subject and pretended that none of the arguments against your new subject exist. Seriously, get the hell out of here. P.S. it should look like this: Quote: - Frigate: Only mega hits, but for meager damage - Cruiser: Only mega hits, but for 'meh' damage - Battlecruiser: Only mega hits. but for weaksauce damage - Battleship: Only mega hits, but for poor damage What are you on about? If Liang presents a total bogus matrix he will get answered by an equally bogus one. He should look at your graphs. What Liang said is simply not true. HE is the one trolling the thread with lies and twisted data. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Rhadamantine Game Community	Posted - 2008.11.07 17:32:00 - [118] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What Liang said is simply not true. HE is the one trolling the thread with lies and twisted data. That's right, because everyone knows Pulse Lasers are crap and always miss. Just makes me wonder why everyone and their dog thinks they are FOTM. Regards. Rhadamantine.
Strill	Posted - 2008.11.07 20:48:00 - [119] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What are you on about? If Liang presents a total bogus matrix he will get answered by an equally bogus one. He should look at your graphs. What Liang said is simply not true. HE is the one trolling the thread with lies and twisted data. All you do is argue for the sake of arguing. You don't make a point or present new ideas, you just criticize other people's ideas with bogus crap. Liang made the argument that pulse lasers can hit in a wide variety of situations while blasters are restricted to point-blank range. In light of similar EFT DPS, this looks like a problem. You then go off on a tangent and point out how a mega can do crap damage from far away with a sniper setup, while the geddon supposedly can't (even though it can with a tracking computer or two). Regardless, that has absolutely nothing to do with blaster viability. The question is whether a blaster ship can perform competitively with other short-medium range ships, and Liang made a legitimate point in that respect, but you come up with some random out-of-your-ass situation that has nothing to do with anything.
Fistme	Posted - 2008.11.07 23:33:00 - [120] Obvious troll is obvious. Don't let Miss Skydancer bother you

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