Dude. Your threads.

Ok, I'll play this one too. Faction guns are kind of a mixed bag. As you noted, they do slightly more damage up until spec 3, where they are overtaken by T2 guns. However, they sometimes have significant ancillary benefits of clip size (can be useful on occasion I guess), lower fitting (marginally useful, especially for tight PvE fits), and cap use (immensely useful if you're talking about tachyon beams). Their drawback, other than lower damage, is that they can't use T2 ammunition and are limited to T1/faction.

Faction launchers are more situationally useful. Rather than directly increasing damage the way faction guns do, they increase RoF (as do the launcher spec skills). However, good faction launchers will always have a higher RoF than T2 launchers at spec 5 -- and they have a higher capacity on top of that. So firing the same missiles, faction launchers always do more damage. T2 launchers of course retain the advantage of being able to fire T2 missiles, which is critical for unguided missiles and at least useful for guided missiles. So there's a real choice to be had there.

As to why? Because the spec skills are designed to work with T2. There's really nothing more to it. Faction offers an option for lower skilled players and allows tight fitting that otherwise wouldn't work -- that's the advantage.

Edit: as for that wasted expense: sell them. It's not like they depreciate. All you've done is limited your liquidity for a time.

Sorry I tend to be this way on every game. And i'm aware i can see it for the same price. But shouldn't the dramatically increased price give me a bigger damage increase?

Would you be against specializations benefiting faction? (You probably are) If so, why?

However, making them just as good as tech II seems like a bad idea. The already have easier fitting and use less capacitor. Giving them the same or better dps than tech II just makes tech II obsolete. (And of course, make faction weapons even more pricey.)

They should be cheaper however, no more than 3 to 4 times as expensive as their tech II counterparts.

I don't think people understand how prices work in this game. Prices are set by players. Both the sellers and buyers. Given the high price of these items it's clear they work just fine as they are. Personally I always use tech 2 use I have a fitting issue.

>Faction weapons for low skilled characters

LOL

Bring the price down if they're supposed to be for noobies

No, I don't think you understand how Eve works. Faction weapons offer improved ability over T1, but at a price. They are a way for wealthy younger players to get good performance at an increased ISK cost. They have easier fitting requirements, or cap use, which makes them easier for characters without perfect fitting/core skills. If you got the benefit of the same damage, with less cap use, or easier fitting, at a lower skill point requirement, it would just make expensive high SP fits even more OP in favor of wealthy, high SP min/maxers.

Edit - ISK cost alone is not a good balancing mechanism. See: Supercarriers and Titans.

Suddenly Caldari Navy Invulns, DG Boosters, and FN webs make so much more sense.

-Liang

I'm A-Ok with faction weapons getting the use of the spec skill and being able to use T2 ammo.

-Liang

Deadspace is better than T2.

Faction is more like T1.5.

Generally:
Use faction until you have the skills to use T2, use T2 until you have the ISK to use deadspace/pirate


[EDIT] Clearly some exceptions exist, but that is why I said 'generally'.

So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT

Deadspace is better than T2.

Faction is more like T1.5.

Generally:
Use faction until you have the skills to use T2, use T2 until you have the ISK to use deadspace/pirate


[EDIT] Clearly some exceptions exist, but that is why I said 'generally'.

T1 faction should stay as they are. CCP should add new faction t2 mods like a Caldari Navy Cruise Missle Launcher II, or a Fed Navy Neutron Blaster II.

Only those would be able to benefit off of spec skills.

Just for badassness, a Federation Navy Stasis Webifier II (the sqeekuel).

So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT

After a wasted expense, I realized that faction weapons do not benefit from specialization skills (derp). However, why is this? This has probably been mentioned before.

I know this calls into question the entire premise of the faction system, but why should t2's ever do more damage than faction? They cost upwards of 30 times more isk than t2's, and you get fitting bonuses? It seems like this current layout only benefits rich players who don't want to take the time to train, and that's a very low portion.


Thoughts/Criticisms?

But it can't use Barrage, therefore it sucks.

-Liang

why would you use barrage for pve?

this can't be pvp, one good bubble or case of falcon faegottry and its 100's of millions in high slots alone on the killmail instead of what 30 mil ish worst case for say 8 large t2 guns at close to 4 mil gouged pricing in a 0.0 isolated station. Cool if you roll like this on bs, me I'd limit this to t3 personally since they gtfo jsut a bit better.

So how come with Large Autocannon Spec IV, my tech 2 800mm repeatings do less damage than the faction one? With the same faction EMP?

According to EFT

[quoteBecause the range + damage is better than the alternatives. A tricked out Vargur is best off shooting Barrage against Caldari State (for example).

-Liang

Some of the people who support or put up this idea are avoiding AWU 5 training. Its a pita, I know...but it is worth it.

Some of you need to learn to compromise on your fits. HItting cpu or pg problems with AWU 5 even....its for a reason.

I find it mildly disturbing that players (these days) seem to have an aversion to multiplying two numbers together, rather than blindly relying on EFT...

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/800mm_Repeating_Artillery_II
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Domination_800mm_Repeating_Artillery


But then, maybe I'm just a cantankerous old fart when it comes to people mentioning GÇÿEFTGÇÖGǪ

On topic, it would only give them just over a 4% edge [over T2], so when you consider the disadvantage of not having T2 ammo, they still wouldnGÇÖt be worth using. Maybe as mentioned on the first page; have *good things* happen when faction guns are matched with the correct faction ammo - it would certainly make things more interesting.

What the hell are people looking at?

I'm still not seeing this supposed DPS advantage for Faction over T2. It just doesn't exist if you have minimal skills trained. It only takes a couple of hours to get to Large Spec III. Starting at Large Autocannon Specialization III, the 800mm Repeating Artillery II does more DPS than Republic Fleet or Domination 800mm Repeating Artillery.

On a Vargur, a single Domination or Republic Fleet 800mm Repeating Artillery does 220 DPS with All Level V skills and Republic Fleet Fusion L.

On a Vargur, a single 800mm Repeating Artillery II does 232 DPS with All Level V skills and Republic Fleet Fusion L. Dropping Large Autocannon Spec down to Level II still gives the 800mm Repeating Artillery II 219 DPS. At Level III it's doing 224 DPS. At Level IV 228 DPS.

Inresting...not seeing be all that great but to each their own. Me I pack hail to kill structures and if really bored large slow NPC's when down to 2 or 1 on 1, live in a glass house so I don't thro stones lol .

But back to this issue I do have to ask by the time you all for this can buy full racks of this stuff...you all have to be t2 capable or close to it, right? Ima cheap player tbh....I like the fact that say my tengu has gone from full pimp to partial pimp as skills allowed better fits and such. Even better that most of my bling gear was bought cheap and resold for profit. See pimp performance, downgrade a mod, see if still as good. Basically make it as cheap as possible ride as I can. What I done with a lot of rides

Call me jaded I read these threads (ben brought up a few times) and think one of 3 things.

Some of the people who support or put up this idea are avoiding AWU 5 training. Its a pita, I know...but it is worth it.

Some of you need to learn to compromise on your fits. HItting cpu or pg problems with AWU 5 even....its for a reason. CCP kind of wants you to choose between tank or gank. Go uber highs slots, tank gives up some meat. Want to tank standing still....your highs or damage low slot mods need to give up some bang. Don't like this setup...bending or breaking the rule about too many fitting mods being fail an option . If what some think is fail makes you the isk per hour you want..all that matters really. YOu are flying the ship. they aren't lol.

Or some are jsut tired of selling faction ammo and ds gear pretty much buries faction gear (few exceptions ofc) and is usualluy better priced so there goes selling faction tank mods as well . Granted this is due to ccp's jacked dogtag based setup that needs to go or readjust quantity . But till that happens....yeah you can keep your tank mods pretty much. So here some are trying to make faction guns more sellable.

Call me jaded I read these threads (ben brought up a few times) and think one of 3 things.

Some of the people who support or put up this idea are avoiding AWU 5 training. Its a pita, I know...but it is worth it.

Some of you need to learn to compromise on your fits. HItting cpu or pg problems with AWU 5 even....its for a reason. CCP kind of wants you to choose between tank or gank. Go uber highs slots, tank gives up some meat. Want to tank standing still....your highs or damage low slot mods need to give up some bang. Don't like this setup...bending or breaking the rule about too many fitting mods being fail an option . If what some think is fail makes you the isk per hour you want..all that matters really. YOu are flying the ship. they aren't lol.

Or some are jsut tired of selling faction ammo and ds gear pretty much buries faction gear (few exceptions ofc) and is usualluy better priced so there goes selling faction tank mods as well . Granted this is due to ccp's jacked dogtag based setup that needs to go or readjust quantity . But till that happens....yeah you can keep your tank mods pretty much. So here some are trying to make faction guns more sellable.

1. Not me: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Liang_Nuren
2. I'm more interested in the extra DPS potential that would come from faction than the fittings. This goes for both PVE and PVP - though I know some people are so risk averse they'd never use them in PVP. Doesn't mean we all are. :)
3. I don't see anything wrong with faction guns having a use. As it stands, they're totally obsolete* because they can't use faction ammo and do less DPS than T2 at Spec 4. Either way, I don't have a horse in the race because I don't have a way to produce faction guns.

* Faction tachs are actually useful because of cap use + fittings. Also, T2 ammo is much less attractive on Tachs.

-Liang

This. The only skill i don't have for directly increasing the damage of large rail guns is the 5th level of Large Railgun Specialization (33 days for 2%....rofl)

I want them to benefit purely for the damage increase. AKA, i want to do more damage with the weapons that should be doing more damage. A 150 mil weapon should outdamage a 4.5 mil one. I just think its fairly, well, stupid that the next increase in damage from trained t2's costs about over a bil per turret....from 4.5 mil.

The faction weapons are at a great price for the next tier of damage from t2s. Just have to add the ability to equip t2 ammo and have them benefit from specialization skills.

I don't think people understand how prices work in this game. Prices are set by players. Both the sellers and buyers. Given the high price of these items it's clear they work just fine as they are. Personally I always use tech 2 use I have a fitting issue.

no T1 gun should be able to load T2 munition. This is what T2 guns are for.

I think the obviously solution is to apply specialization skills to all weapons of that type.

Large blaster Specialization adds 2% damage to ALL Large blasters, T1/T2/Faction/Officer. It *also* allows the use of T2 large blasters.

Keep T2 ammo for T2 turrets only!

problems solved . ..


-FM

I think the obviously solution is to apply specialization skills to all weapons of that type.

Large blaster Specialization adds 2% damage to ALL Large blasters, T1/T2/Faction/Officer. It *also* allows the use of T2 large blasters.

Keep T2 ammo for T2 turrets only!

problems solved . ..


-FM

Think it should be the other way spec only goes towards t2 weapons, but faction can shoot t2 ammo.

After a wasted expense, I realized that faction weapons do not benefit from specialization skills (derp). However, why is this? This has probably been mentioned before.

I know this calls into question the entire premise of the faction system, but why should t2's ever do more damage than faction? They cost upwards of 30 times more isk than t2's, and you get fitting bonuses? It seems like this current layout only benefits rich players who don't want to take the time to train, and that's a very low portion.


Thoughts/Criticisms?

Faction mods allow you to substitute ISK for SP. I'm pretty sure that was intentional.

Please provide the complete list of faction items that are WORSE than their T2 version (other than turrets of course).

Hell provide ONE example of a faction item that is WORSE than it's T2 version.

-FM

There's some deadspace mods that are worse than T2. RRs, for example.

-Liang

In other words faction weapons cost what they cost , not because they are good or in demand but because other items are good or in demand.

There's some deadspace mods that are worse than T2. RRs, for example.

-Liang

QTF
I've only had 1 escalation/expedition, and all I got out of it was a C type medium shield repper - complete worthless crap

I'm sorry you got a broken DEADSPACE item through exploration. CCP should fix those too.

It doesn't have much to do with FACTION Items in the LP stores though.

Please provide the complete list of faction items that are WORSE than their T2 version (other than turrets of course).

Hell provide ONE example of a faction item that is WORSE than it's T2 version.

-FM

I don't want to argue against you guys but since you asked:

Domination adaptive invulnerability Field; worse stats than t2 but with less fitting requirements