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Idea For Replacing Local

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InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:10:00 - [1] Hey, I'm a 0.0 roamer, who resides in highsec and I get a lot of joy from this game hunting ratters in belts, and getting small skirmishes going with the 0.0 alliances that occupy the area that I roam in. I've also be on the other end of the field and have been in large 0.0 alliances, ratting, defending space, etc. etc. With that said, I think both as a roamer and defender that local is broken and needs to be fixed, and I know that many people agree with that statement, and many others will disagree as well. Let me state that it takes me around 10 seconds to scan someone in a belt if they are in a belt cluster near my in-gate. If they are at a cluster off my directional scan it takes around 25-45 seconds for me to spot their location. In my opinion, and the backing of everyone that I have flown with, that's pretty damn fast for using the directional scanner which itself is a pretty barbaric tool. I've logged hundreds of hours (sadly lmao but enjoyed a lot it) roaming in 0.0 and have scored a significant amount of kills for being in a small corporation most of my history. However, on an average roam I would say I run into about 4-5 Battleships/HACs/Battlecruisers in asteroid belts. Of these, I will be lucky if I catch one in a belt before they warp out. It is not because I suck at using my directional scanner as I established above, but because of local. It really is irritating how I built up my personal skills as a player using the directional scanner. I get no aid from the game to hunt for belt ratters, where as the ratters get a tool that in the hands of a half decent player will keep them alive 90% of the time. It is an extremely unfair advantage that one side of the spectrum gets, and obviously needs to be tweaked. If I recall correctly CCP acknowledges that local is broken, and needs to be fixed, the question is how? First it is important that it is established what local is used for (note that I am only talking about 0.0) 1) Defense for ratters 2) Offense for roamers 3) Intelligence for enemy fleet numbers 4) Communication amongst non-corporate/alliance members 5) Knowledge of Titan presence I believe those are the five fundamental uses for local currently, and one of those uses was the actual intended use, while the other four occurred over time. So what can we do to fix the natural abuse of an overpowered game mechanic? 1) Keep local chat like alliance chat. Make it delayed, and only display people who speak in the channel while you are present. I know this has been put forth already, and I think it's a good idea. Local still is used for occasional smack talk, and communication between non-group members, and it was intended to be a chat channel, so do not throw away that. 2) Create a module, or even just a probe for the Covert Ops ship that could detect the amount of people present in a system. Once the probe finishes loading, your results page will show the amount of people present in the system (this poses a problem though which I will cover below). Covert ops ships at the moment are only used for safe travel, probing people, and probing complexes. I view them as an a ship that has the potential to be formatted into an intelligence gather vessel. A) ISSUE: Scanning for the sheer amount in people in local would combine both hostile and possible friendlies giving an inaccurate amount of people in system, rendering the probe useless. In order to counter this, if possible allow the probe to function with overview settings and not display the number of friendly ships in the results. 3) Update the directional scanner with new technology. As I mentioned above, it is extremely barbaric. The user needs to constantly click the "scan" button which gets tiresome after some time. On top of that, the user has to guess what 60,30,15,5 degrees would look like on their screen. So what can be done to fix this? A) Increase scanner range to something like 20AU to give people extra time to warp out of needed. --
InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.19 23:10:00 - [2] Allow the scanner to auto-update itself at the rate in which it currently updates when the pilot clicks ôscan.ö Create a window for it that can be made small and still function sufficiently in that a ratter can keep it close at hand and notice if a ship comes onto the overview. This should give a ratter who is using his/her tools correctly enough time to evacuate the belt, and a roamer like myself updated tools to hunt ratters. 4) Create a POS module that removes friendlies (+5 and +10 standing) from the directional scanner. ItÆd be a PITA to warp out of a belt because of a friendly ratting in the same system that you were unaware of, or a friendly gang passing by. So create a POS module that removes friendlies from this view giving the ratters more awareness as to what may be hostile and what may not be hostile. ThatÆs all I can think of at the moment that may help fix the problem that local has caused. I hope that it would create the need for both roamers and ratters to use SKILL and not a broken advantage in their intelligence system to stay alive or score a kill. CCP I just hope that you can make a change to local soon, it is long overdue for something that is terribly unbalanced.
Lollapolooza	Posted - 2008.12.20 01:45:00 - [3] Edited by: Lollapolooza on 20/12/2008 01:45:54 I completely agree, something's got to be done about local. Something is very wrong with the game mechanics if a pvper is scanning a ship as fast as humanly possible, but consistently finds that it is still not fast enough. I like the ideas above. Surely CCP can do something to balance this out?
Gantor Tesla	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:06:00 - [4] How about this. Rework local with the changes you have posted, but also add the following. Local is a delayed speaker setting, but anyone within directional scanner range shows up. or how about Civilian Scan Probes They come equipped with every ship, like jet cans and camera drones. you can fire 1 every minute, and it tells you how many people are in local, like a Multispectral Frequency Probe does for deadspaces.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:17:00 - [5] How about switching constellation and local channels? Constellation is always open, local can be closed. Simple. It reports the presence of a pilot, but not anywhere in particular, unless both parties are in local. It's a boon to consensual PvPers, and it kills the cloaking problem. It also encourages people to use probes and system scanners. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Made a reality by speed and missile nerf.
Berikath	Posted - 2008.12.20 06:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Allen Ramses How about switching constellation and local channels? Constellation is always open, local can be closed. Simple. It reports the presence of a pilot, but not anywhere in particular, unless both parties are in local. It's a boon to consensual PvPers, and it kills the cloaking problem. It also encourages people to use probes and system scanners. This
Zel Nughat Amarr Nughat Corp	Posted - 2008.12.20 08:24:00 - [7] Originally by: Berikath Originally by: Allen Ramses How about switching constellation and local channels? Constellation is always open, local can be closed. Simple. It reports the presence of a pilot, but not anywhere in particular, unless both parties are in local. It's a boon to consensual PvPers, and it kills the cloaking problem. It also encourages people to use probes and system scanners. This Dunno where the original post is but... /signed .o/ ------------------------------------------- The moon is a terrible mistress... ...who walks the night with demons of dread.
InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.20 17:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Allen Ramses How about switching constellation and local channels? Constellation is always open, local can be closed. Simple. It reports the presence of a pilot, but not anywhere in particular, unless both parties are in local. It's a boon to consensual PvPers, and it kills the cloaking problem. It also encourages people to use probes and system scanners. It sounds like a great idea, but to be honest people will just wait until someone leaves constellation chat to continue doing whatever they were doing. People are that paranoid.
Murkelost Swedish Aerospace Inc G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:33:00 - [9] Edited by: Murkelost on 20/12/2008 19:36:29 I really support the ideas and thoughts that has been posted. This would put even more ability and usefulness into Covert Ops frigates which is a ship surely underestimated. I use Covert Ops alot for different reasons but with this change to local I can only imagine the importance of having Covert Ops Ships located around gates for larger fleet movement detection. Would the Covert Ops expose himself to hostile entities he would thereby also give away intelligence of his corporation presence and allaince if belonging to such entity. This as an example would probably provoke the interest of the oppossing side to gather intelligence of the mere presence of this Covert Ops vessel detected, or simply discard it and move along. Adding this change to the game would also give a bigger sense of the unknown and unexplored, since looking at it somehow realistic just by entering a solar system you wouldn't be able to tell who or what was really there unless you've performed some prospects of the current area. I know people who are extremely dedicated to Covert Ops Operations and with those kind of people around this change would not become a limitation to pilots, only adding more excitement and experience to the game. There are alot of ships in the game that has the ability to be used for recon operations and their abilities would prove more of an importance than before, not just have fancy e-war capabilities. Of course I am refeering to the Force Recons, Stealth Bombers, and the newly introduced Black Ops. This change would also put more to it about the Jump Portal Generator providing ship such as above mentioned to enter a system undetected. However my opinion is that not only will those ships gain the benefit of this new way, but practically any ship will be beneficial thus also exposed on the level of risc it takes by taking different actions such as jumping through a stargate, warping directly to a gate without having a scan ID on its grid. Not knowing what is lurking about, and also not knowing what might be on the other side of a doorstep should bring alot of tension to whatever choices you decide to make during different events involving other players. Another side to this is you won't exactly know what entity is activating a gateflash, which corporation is the pilot from, does the corporation belong to an alliance, and what alliance is it? Next question to that, is he alone roaming or lead scout for a bigger group of pilots behind. What is the purpose of this presence. Well the questions with this new system is to me unlimited and would yet again pinpoint the importance of intelligence gather around a certain group of pilots. The probable downside of this would be alot of intelligence gathering replacing actual pvp moments but at this moment at some point we all have to put ourself at a position where we are exposing ourselves to certain risc, maybe even immidiate death, however this is the thrill of the game that would be taken even further through not simply knowing what local consists of, I also would assume that fights would be more of a escalating kind, hopefully where reinforcements are called in step by step to prolong a ongoing deep space battle, making it more of a longlasting event than most fights that many experience today. Just my random thoughts based on my own experience and also on new thoughts on what the game could become with this change. Please making constructive comments and critisism on my opinions.
Kittamaru Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:40:00 - [10] If this is done, then some way of detecting a cloak needs to be introduced. It has to be difficult, time consuming, and easy to avoid for a cloaked pilot with half a brain. Reason it's needed? Without local, you have no way of knowing if a cloaked ship is there. Now, I have an idea in the works that would give you a chance to possibly find a cloaked ship if he holds still too long, and would give a return that, yes, there is someone in system, though the system-wide scan only gets you on grid. The rest is still up to you.
Kiithnaras Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:53:00 - [11] Just stop. Leave local alone. Yes, a lot of people want it gone. Just as many if not more want it to stay. Removing local favors those who are already established in 0.0 and lowsec, by virtue of system scanner arrays and scanning ships on standby. 'nuff said.
Kittamaru Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.20 19:57:00 - [12] No... local helps large alliances defend their space by virtue of knowing where people are and the moment they enter system without even doing anything...
EthanPow Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation	Posted - 2008.12.20 20:09:00 - [13] Klith has a point, closing local and changing it just for 0.0 would make it annoying to find anyone specially if you want to find a friend in 0.0, moving around 0.0 without being seen is pretty easy with local and changing local would make it very easy for anyone to invade and harder to protect 0.0 space, specially deep 0.0 space. the enemy still has to scan you out or warp to each belt and planet to see if your there, slap on a cloaker and your ok for defense, just watch out for jam bubbles, with local everything is pretty much balanced. and ALSO don't forget you can still use the map to find someone is in a system within the last 30mins, so if he/she been ratting closing local would mean they would use the map to find people and it would be very effective so it would start all over again. so stop and move on :/ What ever you do, DO NOT, for love of god, do not use that smartbomb
InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:19:00 - [14] Originally by: EthanPow Klith has a point, closing local and changing it just for 0.0 would make it annoying to find anyone specially if you want to find a friend in 0.0, moving around 0.0 without being seen is pretty easy with local and changing local would make it very easy for anyone to invade and harder to protect 0.0 space, specially deep 0.0 space. I can find any friend that I have in EVE in 0.0 without local. How? Ventrilo or Teamspeak, or even chat, why do you need local to communicate to your friends to locate them? Moving around in 0.0 is easy with local? It's next to near impossible. Every time I enter a system people run from the belts, I get reported in their intel channels (alt spies for the win) and they form up a gang to kill me. When they have a ratter in every system in their pocket they just use local to report me. Lastly you say that it will make it hard to protect 0.0 space. I say good, the way it is now you have essentially two power blocks controlling all of 0.0. That's extremely unbalanced, and boring from a political standpoint. Originally by: EthanPow the enemy still has to scan you out or warp to each belt and planet to see if your there, slap on a cloaker and your ok for defense, just watch out for jam bubbles, with local everything is pretty much balanced. and ALSO don't forget you can still use the map to find someone is in a system within the last 30mins, so if he/she been ratting closing local would mean they would use the map to find people and it would be very effective so it would start all over again. so stop and move on :/ Balanced? How is it balanced when I have honed in on my own personal skills as a player to locate ratters by flying hours upon end practicing my skill, where as they have a tool right there to their disposal that lets them run away AS SOON AS I ENTER THE SYSTEM. These people are IMPOSSIBLE to catch, therefore it is UNBALANCED, quite the opposite of what you said. And just to let you know I use the map everywhere I go. I plot my very 0.0 roam based on the statistical setting that you just described. It's already being used, it's great for plotting a course, but not very good for intel. I'll enter systems like BWF or P3EN to find the map was off by 30-40 people. The map is fine the way it is.
InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.20 21:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Kiithnaras Just stop. Leave local alone. Yes, a lot of people want it gone. Just as many if not more want it to stay. Removing local favors those who are already established in 0.0 and lowsec, by virtue of system scanner arrays and scanning ships on standby. 'nuff said. I see your point, which is why POS's need to be reworked as well. Not every alliance uses system scanner arrays though, I've seen it done sometimes but more often then not they don't use them. Local is being used as an intelligence tool which was not its intended use.
MikeG Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:50:00 - [16] Local is fail, remove plz
Rubino Caldari Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.22 21:35:00 - [17] Edited by: Rubino on 22/12/2008 21:36:27 Edited by: Rubino on 22/12/2008 21:35:44 There are some good points being mentioned here. I'm in favour of CCP doing something with Local. As it stands at the moment Local serves one essential purpose - to give information on who you're sharing your system with. What pilots do with that information is up to them. This purpose is a fair and reasonable one, but the information is provided both far too easily and far too quickly. Local should be replaced with a system that provides the same essential information, but takes slightly longer to do so and requires some rl skill to access the information. This would make it possible for 0.0 roamers to have some success with the scanning skills they've spent hours practising and developing and would also give the hunted a fair chance of avoiding the hunter, provided they too devoted time towards developing the skills. It could also make life more difficult for players who use macros and if CCP is serious about getting rid of these guys then for this reason alone they must do something about Local. I agree with InSession. We, and countless other PVPers, have spent hours developing the skills for finding ratters' belts. For these guys to have to do nothing more than stare at their local channel and initiate warp when it changes is completely unbalanced. It really does need changed.
Adeena Torcfist Caldari Dark Underground Forces	Posted - 2008.12.23 01:28:00 - [18] well, the only idea i have at the moment, is having it as it is, for those that have sovereinty in that region/constellation, but those that do not, have it delayed, by say, a minute. The alliance that does have soverienty in that region, can & should use settings, to show hostiles, neutrals & freindlies at their discretion. again, 60 seconds isnt too long for an update on a local refresh, whislt giving the alliance time to see who is coming in & out of the said system with the current way.
InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2008.12.23 02:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Adeena Torcfist well, the only idea i have at the moment, is having it as it is, for those that have sovereinty in that region/constellation, but those that do not, have it delayed, by say, a minute. The alliance that does have soverienty in that region, can & should use settings, to show hostiles, neutrals & freindlies at their discretion. again, 60 seconds isnt too long for an update on a local refresh, whislt giving the alliance time to see who is coming in & out of the said system with the current way. That would make it impossible for me to kill anyone. 0.0 alliances would gain SOV in every system making POS's even more annoying, creating increased stagnation of powerblocs, and the end of 0.0 fun. Bad idea, sorry.
DrDooma	Posted - 2008.12.23 03:10:00 - [20] At the moment you can get an idea of how fair a fight will be by the amount of people in local. As soon as you remove local, all pirate corps will camp stations with 20+ waiting for war targets to undock. WhatÆs even worse is that you cant undock because you donÆt know that they not there. Gate camping will remain the same only now you donÆt now if its 20 or 120 hostiles in local and your scout is useless if they have a safe spot outside your scan range.
Ashley Thomas Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.12.23 04:07:00 - [21] i like this, though nothing new is really needed as far as cov ops go. maybe a probe to give number of hits within x AUs, I'd prefer to limit its range and not make it 100% reliable, rather to just give you an idea of what's out there. yes, I am a cov ops pilot, it's all I do on fleet ops
galphi Gallente Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.23 05:35:00 - [22] Local certainly is a kludge, and should be set to show only people who are speaking, but any change to how local currently operates must be accompanied by a vast improvement to the scanner, as the OP recommends. I'd also like to have it coupled with the ability to drop out of warp at any time, with ctrl-space. Otherwise the first glimpse you get of a heavily camped gate in 0.0 is on your scanner as you hurtle helplessly towards them.
Murkelost Swedish Aerospace Inc G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.23 09:42:00 - [23] Originally by: DrDooma At the moment you can get an idea of how fair a fight will be by the amount of people in local. As soon as you remove local, all pirate corps will camp stations with 20+ waiting for war targets to undock. WhatÆs even worse is that you cant undock because you donÆt know that they not there. Gate camping will remain the same only now you donÆt now if its 20 or 120 hostiles in local and your scout is useless if they have a safe spot outside your scan range. Thats exactly the reason why you have scouts in Covert Ops, Recons or whatever you see fit. On many levels Eve is being played as it's me against the eve world, but hey it's not impossible to make something work together with other people. Station camped? Get a force of people there to hold control of the grid of the station.
Shaka Quatuic	Posted - 2008.12.23 10:52:00 - [24] you want to know what the solution to station camping is? an interface with the station's traffic control net. geez... this game is set what... 21000 years in the future and space habitats the size of small moons are commonplace, but these same stations have no facility for traffic control within at least 1 light-second range? all any pilot in a station should have to do is query the station to receive a listing of all active pilots on the station grid outside. this would not be a listing of pilots in the whole system... just those on the station's grid. thats really all one needs.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.23 11:06:00 - [25] /signed If these changes are viewed to be too overpowered for the attackers benefit at least make it so ships like Ravens cannot cloak, or be probed down while cloaked. Only problem with that I suppose is that people will just simply logoff when they see someone enter local. Perhaps if we made so rat-aggro counted the same way as PVP-aggro for the timer (when you disappear)?
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.23 19:29:00 - [26] Kill local and switch to Constellation. It's been mentioned before in many threads including this one. That's because it's a good damn idea. I see no need for any of this other fancy shmancy tinkering with game mechanics. ............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots.
My Sister	Posted - 2008.12.23 22:16:00 - [27] you should always appear in local for one min after contact with a structure or ship capable of reporting your presence. jumping through a gate should announce your presence to the system local channel however if you were to SS up for a while your icon in local should time out. coming into line of sight with a pos or another ship should have the result that you get your sighting reported. there shouild be personal options you can set to report only unknowns or reds on sight and the same settings would also apply to pos's and anchorable objects. you should be able to anchor a beacon that would report a sighting of hostile or unknown entities to local but have a limit to how many a single pilot can use in the same system. these can be targetted and shot when found. so the end result would be if i jumped into a system i would be announced but if i were to hid in a SS for a short amount of time i would no longer be in local untill i came into line of sight with somthing, this would give me that sneaky sneaky edge but not disadvantage locals going about thier business too much. the problem with what most people who want local gone propose is that it stacks up all the advantage on the side of the sneaking ratter hunters and really makes the ratters/miners very vulnerable. its often been said - let them use thier scanners more and perhaps thats not a bad thing, my proposal seems to be a fair balance between both points of view in any case
Curator	Posted - 2008.12.23 22:49:00 - [28] I agree with everything InSession stated. Fixing local is long over due. InSession's Post is very well thought out and should be implemented in the next patch.
NE Weevil The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2008.12.23 23:27:00 - [29] It should require as much skill to know someone is hunting you as it does to hunt someone. Local prevents that. It is frustrating when you hunt for hours on end and every single time anybody sees the sight of danger (me in local) they run to a POS. If someone is watching local they have NO chance of being caught by you. For this reason PvP is not a profession in EVE because it is just too difficult to catch anybody. Listen to InSession he knows what he's talking about! Fix it CCP!!
DrDooma	Posted - 2008.12.24 00:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Murkelost Thats exactly the reason why you have scouts in Covert Ops, Recons or whatever you see fit. On many levels Eve is being played as it's me against the eve world, but hey it's not impossible to make something work together with other people. Station camped? Get a force of people there to hold control of the grid of the station. Agree, but if you are in a small corp you are at a disadvantage. Also, keep in mind that your suggestion takes out most tactics out of the equation and replaces it with pure dum luck just to catch a ratting Ravan.

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