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What's u'r opinion about Falcons?

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Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:10:00 - [61] Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 02:13:37 Originally by: Jaco Matari Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 00:05:59 The comment about the psychology of it is interesting. You're just as helpless if you're TD'd till you can't hit anything or neut'd down to 0 cap though, no? But you're not useless in either of those situations. If I am neuted, I can still fire my capless projectile weapons, assign drone targets and fire missiles at the target. If I am tracking disrupted I can still fire missiles, assign targets to my drones, and use my own EWAR (Webs/ painters/ whatever). ECM removes my ability to do any of those things. And before you say adapt or die, any utility mid I have is usually allocated to a Ladar ECCM, but with Minmatar's low sensor strength it hardly seems to matter. I don't really want a nerf of the Falcon, but a buff for ECCM would be nice. RSDs would totally prevent you from doing several of these things though. The only way round this irritation factor is coming up with some new mechanism that isn't like RSDs. Maybe some change to the way they effect locking (can lock, can't use modules?) or vary with range without making them into RSDs?
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:11:00 - [62] Edited by: Kessiaan on 29/12/2008 02:16:09 Falcons are fine, other recons are junky and should be buffed up. Every MMO I've ever played has at least one form of CC that's really obnoxiously annoying. In Eve, this takes the form of ECM. There's nothing wrong with ECM as a concept, but totally shutting down a player is always going to be far more annoying than making them less effective but still able to act. If I were to change ECM, I'd eliminate NPC ECM (at least from FW plexes, Caldari rats can swing a pvp engagement in a way no other race's rats can), and make it so ECCM grants a flat resistance bonus to ECM (maybe 40%-50% per ECCM module).
Ezael Whiteshadow	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:38:00 - [63] Originally by: big miker Edited by: big miker on 28/12/2008 18:30:11 I want to know how many hate them and how many ppl ectualy like them. In my opinion? Overpoweredpussiecatcantwinwithoutonebetterthenanyotherewar ship... So, whats ur opinion? ( Ecm aswell ) Boo Hoo! Moan moan moan. Let me guess, you got blown up recently and someone had a falcon in the gang? (It wasn't me was it?) As a Falcon pilot I can tell you that we are already very vulnerable, but of course when you come across lazy players like yourself who don't look into how to beat us. And to be honest, it only seems as though we are overpowered cos we will only go after a target we have a very good chance of jamming. So its more to the point to say that you are pants compared to falcons being too powerful.
SirMoric Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:45:00 - [64] The Falcon is the ship of teamplayers. People who doesn't count DPS, but like contributing to a common goal, without being the one dealing the most damage. The Falcon is one reason why you should crosstrain Caldari, and a good reason it is. But since people doesn't like Caldari, it's easier just getting them nerfed instead of taking advantage of them. The Falcon is the best ship in it's class, but not unbeatable. If you nerf it, people will just start showing up in other ships and pwn you. rgds
Sparky12 Caldari Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2008.12.29 03:33:00 - [65] Stop whining and learn to deal with them I fly one and let me tell you it's fragile and its expensive you can have an inty come out to you and the rest of the fleet can warp to the inty on top of your falcon and that can end very badly or if you are switched on you will live and since the Caldari ships have been hit with the nerf bat the falcon is the only decent effective ship Caldari has left for PVP. Maybe we should nerf all guns as they do damage to other ships that way we can all live in harmony and become Carebears flying around admiring the scenery.
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.12.29 08:39:00 - [66] Originally by: Sparky12 Stop whining and learn to deal with them I fly one and let me tell you it's fragile and its expensive you can have an inty come out to you and the rest of the fleet can warp to the inty on top of your falcon and that can end very badly or if you are switched on you will live and since the Caldari ships have been hit with the nerf bat the falcon is the only decent effective ship Caldari has left for PVP. Maybe we should nerf all guns as they do damage to other ships that way we can all live in harmony and become Carebears flying around admiring the scenery. Stop whining ? Are you for real .. cmon you got a ship that is untouchable at 190km+ and can warp of come back and take atleast 2 ships completly out of a fight. Atleast with RSD's you could atleast get close to someone and manage to get a lock on him. With a falcon you are pretty much toast. And all other recons ewar has a range under 100km whilst falcons can operate upto 200km+ if u got the proper skills and bonuses. So yeah script the falcon welcome it down to the rest of us cannon fodder then maybe you can get back on your high horse and ride into the sunset.
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:06:00 - [67] They're a bit OP, but if they get messed with, the caldari will lose their best pvp ship, and will be sorely lacking in their lineup. I'd say their range could get reduced a bit without much harm. Reducing their effectiveness is lame. It's all they've got. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
MacGrowler III The Legion of Spoon	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:14:00 - [68] Originally by: Pan Crastus Now do the math for a full rack of ECM. No matter how many ECM modules you have you cannot have a 100% chance of jamming a ship. Mathematically speaking you cannot just add up 2 x 50% to equal 100% when it comes to chance calculations. It's a bit like calculating resists, no matter what modules you add you can't get to 100% EM resists on any (non dev) ships. For example, You activate your first ECM module with a 50% chance of jamming and it fails, your second module still only has a 50% chance of jamming. If that fails, then guess what? Your third module will only have a 50% chance at jamming also. Eventually you can reduce the odds, but you can NEVER 100% guarantee a jam. Now as to falcons being overpowered, well I certainly don't want to leave on a roam without at least one in the gang.
Gabriel Virtus Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:34:00 - [69] The falcon isn't in line with the other ewar ships in the game. The problem is ECM itself and the ships that have the buffs for it. ECM without the buffs isn't in line with much of the other ewar, but once you include all of the buffs that caldari ewar ships have, it is overpowered. With recent changes to speeds (nano is dead for the most part), the falcon has become even more unbalanced because of its range. I am not going to sit here and emorage about how unbalanced the ewar is in this game, but I think it almost ridiculous for anyone to claim that caldari ewar and ECMs in general is not by far the best ewar in the game. Flame on -GV
big miker Minmatar Order of Anarchy	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:45:00 - [70] How about RSD's get a big optimal range increase They'd atleast be very effective vs long range ecm ships, for sure. This won't nerf ecm, but it will give the much needed RSD boost in my opinion. Any idea's?

Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:55:00 - [71] The way it is now, falcons have way too much impact on a lot of fights. Their range and the way ecm and eccm works right now is too blame. If RSD's would get a big range increase it would only get worse, imagine a falcon with ecm and a few rsd's :/ ECM needs tweaking, maybe the sensor strengths of ships need tweaking, maybe the eccm's, maybe ecm cycles/range/scripting. The way it is now it's just not quite even. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:56:00 - [72] Falcons hurt solo pvpers but meh if a falcon is involved its at least 2 - 1 against the solo player anyway if not more. They make mid sized gang combat very interesting and tactical instead of static. While being pretty much ineffective in large gangs/fleets.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 10:11:00 - [73] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus The falcon isn't in line with the other ewar ships in the game. The problem is ECM itself and the ships that have the buffs for it. ECM without the buffs isn't in line with much of the other ewar, but once you include all of the buffs that caldari ewar ships have, it is overpowered. With recent changes to speeds (nano is dead for the most part), the falcon has become even more unbalanced because of its range. I don't see tears about sniper battleships, they operate at same ranges and unlike falcon can even kill something. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
McFly C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 10:17:00 - [74] I say that falcon's are only as good as their pilots are in them. and jamming isn't 100% I've gone down before with dual racial jammers on a sensor booster stiletto that got a lock on me and approached ... he finally got close to me and picked away and i never got a jam on him. But also I've jammed up an entire lowsec pirate RR gate camp gang to watch them go emoraging in local as a state war academy badger went by. Also one comparison a lot of people leave out on the falcon/rook debate and other recon's is all the other recons have 2 EWs. Minnie TP/Webs, Amarr Neut/Nos/Tracking, Gallente damps/scramb/disruptors.... now I'm not saying that they are balance because I dont think they really are, but I wanted to point out a lot of people leave out that the caldari recons are the only one's with 1 EW system. ECM itself is a messed up mechanic, but damps before they were stacking nerfed were the same way. I do think ECM needs a relook. But as far as falcon is concerned it has a job, it does it well. And if it's unlucky it dies a quick horrible death.. u can't tank it, u can't kill anything with it, but you can screw up an enemy gang with it real good.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 10:25:00 - [75] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Burning Horizon ECM does need a nerf tbh "adapt or die" ECM as a mechanism is fine. This. Falcons are the only real PvP ships a Caldari skilled char can bring. Stop crying ffs. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.29 10:38:00 - [76] Originally by: big miker Edited by: big miker on 28/12/2008 18:30:11 I want to know how many hate them and how many ppl ectualy like them. In my opinion? Overpoweredpussiecatcantwinwithoutonebetterthenanyotherewar ship... So, whats ur opinion? ( Ecm aswell ) There's a reason I'm training 3 chars up on them atm... --
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.12.29 10:39:00 - [77] Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Burning Horizon ECM does need a nerf tbh "adapt or die" ECM as a mechanism is fine. This. Falcons are the only real PvP ships a Caldari skilled char can bring. Stop crying ffs. Well according to all you falcon hippies the falcon isnt a pvp ship its a support vessel. how about you fielding a rokh blaster or rail or maybe torp raven or maybe a nasty drake ? How about u stop crying and use the ship available to you ? Not seeing that the falcon is overpowered may it be via ECM or the ship itself dont matter them two together = iWin button if you are the only one fielding em, if not its a jam fest where you are happy to actually target anything or just until everyone tires of not being able to lock **** and warp off.
ZenSun Total Mayhem. Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:12:00 - [78] Edited by: ZenSun on 29/12/2008 11:13:56 Hated ECM from the start, regardless if it's a tactical maneuver in the field, it just straight out bores me... It's a pussies tool if you use it in mass numbers, your just too scared to put up a good fight. However I wouldn't be so harsh to it if ECCM was actually half effective, I am hearing people burn 3 ECCM II's overheated and still get jammed, I don't know about you but I shouldn't think that 4 mid slots should be sacrificed to stop being jammed when half the time you are still getting jammed. I use one on my Armageddon and each time I am getting jammed, I think of scrapping the module and going for something else. Adapt or Die - Ball**, stop leaning on that **ing phrase, it has nothing to do with adapting, it's to do with just being an overpowered ship which pussies use in a gross amounts. woops
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:50:00 - [79] Falcons are fine. If anything its other recons that needs a boost to their ewar to get away from this idiotic idea that pvp should be pure tank + spank like so many seem to want.
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Esmenet Falcons are fine. If anything its other recons that needs a boost to their ewar to get away from this idiotic idea that pvp should be pure tank + spank like so many seem to want. So who is gonna be fighting when everyone is jamming dampening each other to ** ? whilst the few combat that are suppose to slug it out cant do ** but sit there and sigh ?

Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 11:56:00 - [81] Originally by: ZenSun It's a pussies tool if you use it in mass numbers, your just too scared to put up a good fight. Wrong. It's a tool to ruin stupid newbie tactics. If ECCM would be 100% effective, then a shield hardener would have 100% resistance aswell. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
MADDOGzors THE FINAL STAND Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.29 12:02:00 - [82] And you'd be 100% braindead.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.29 12:22:00 - [83] While I understand how annoying is is to be jammed, and i wouldnt really mind an ecm CHANGE (NOT using the word nerf), I think alot of people are over-reacting. Calling falcon pilots "pussies" simply because they used a tactic that beats your tactic is hillarious. Its like calling an invading riflemen army that just conqoured (<-spelling?) your swordsman army pussies because they brought guns to a knife fight (hehe switched the saying). EVE history t2 precisions
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 12:48:00 - [84] Originally by: BiggestT While I understand how annoying is is to be jammed, and i wouldnt really mind an ecm CHANGE (NOT using the word nerf), ... ECM has been changed a long time ago. I think it has been proven that the current mechanics are fine and some ppl still cannot counter it by any reason (for those who can't, look into this post for a lesson by Stuart Price, obviously a good PvP pilot). Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
kessah The Accursed	Posted - 2008.12.29 12:59:00 - [85] There was a concept that CCP were thinking of introducing. Allow the ability to overload ECCM with a script, making you immune to jamming for 30 seconds, but in the process burning it out for approx 2mins. Theres quite alot of problems with the idea, but at least they were at one time considering something to help Solo pvp'ers like myself the ability to realistically defend when trying to fight alone. My opinion is that they have too many advantages that effectivly give large lazy gangs too much over smaller ones. Range, Jam Duration, Warp cloaked and very effective at shutting down a Single battleship with dual ECCM's for a good portion of a fight. Too many people run around thinking 'o its ok we have a falcon'. Its my belief that a target should only be jammed by a single jamming module. Thus giving the Falcon a more specific role on fleet and less of one in solo/small combat. A sensor booster can basically give back a ship a comfortable lock range, as with a single ECCM should be enough to protect a pilot from being jammed so easily.
barvo The Scope	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:05:00 - [86] Edited by: barvo on 29/12/2008 13:06:38 sigh Let's just whinewhinewhinewhineOMFGWHINE, instead of coming with a reasoned argument. Let me try one for you. I'm going to preface this by stating my position: Falcons are a specialised ship and are excellent at their role, but I agree that they are out of line with their counterparts. Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons. Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km You'll notice the falcon is the only force recon that gets both ewar bonuses directed at the same item. That's part of the problem; whereas Arazu pilots will (for example) fit points as well as remote sensor damps, making use of the ability to hold people at extended range as well as damping bs's out of fights, falcon pilots can use all mids (or more likely all minus one for mwd) as ECM slots. Also, the falcon seems to be able to lock a long way past all the other recons, without adding any sensor boosters or signal amps. Now, the falcon is a specialised ship, more so than the other recons; it only has one purpose and one way of affecting the battle - ECM. I'm not sure any purpose would be served by splitting up the bonuses - I'm not sure it would make sense anyway as there's nothing else in the 'Ewar' arsenal that isn't already covered in another race's force recon. My proposal to deal with the issue of falcons ruining everyone's day is twofold. * Firstly, reduce the targetting range of the falcon to 110k after skills, so that in order to use it past 150km you would need 1 sensor booster and towards 200km you'd need two sensor boosters. This reduces the number of ecm slots (or sig dist amp slots) that the falcon pilot can utilise from extreme range, without compromising the effectiveness when it gets a jam off. It should have the ultimate effect of reducing the number of ships a single falcon can knock out of the fight at range closer to that of the other force recons. * Secondly, a 10% improvement to ECCM effectiveness would go a long way. My preference would be to do this with a skillbook, 2% improvement to (each) ECCM module per level. No amount of ECCM should ever make you completely immune to jamming. The whole foundation of ECM in the game is based around chance. I don't support the whole warp core stabs vs. warp disrupt points analogy, because then what's the point of a specialised ECM ship, if people can totally counteract it? CCP would have to then invent the ECM equivalent of dictor and hictor bubbles, and everyone would just cry all over again, only slightly louder this time as the player base increases in size. FOF missiles, on the other hand, do not need a buff. The only boost required for these is to people's memory, so that they actually remember to stick some in their hold before they find themselves on the field, jammed to hell ;) In the meantime, ECCM does still increase your chances of avioding a jam, drones do still go after stuff that engages you while you're jammed, and FoF missiles do still shoot the nearest target while you can't lock anything. Oh, RSD's do still damp the range of falcons if you have capable pilots to get you in range, target painters do still light them up like guy fawkes on bonfire night for your one non-jammed BS to alpha them into next week, and when all is said and done, even if a velator locks the falcon, it can no longer cloak. So even though they are overpowered, the sky actually isn't going to fall. TL,DR: Yes i think the falcon is overpowered, not by that much given it's a specialised ship, nerf its targetting range a bit and introduce a skill to improve ECCM effectiveness. Then all those who fail to fit countermeasures can go diaf as far as I'm concerned :D edit - Failed at clarity.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:19:00 - [87] Falcons is overpowered. They should atleast have their range adjusted. In general i think ECM in its current form is a huge mistake from CCP. However sensor strength is used to balance ships (specially mauraders) and also mixed with probing. So i dont see an easy way out of this one.
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:32:00 - [88] IMO theres nothing wrong with falcons. The problem with falcons isnt the ship itself, its in falcon alts. IMO if CCP simply changes the game code so that it won't allow people to run 2 clients at the same time it'll largely "fix" the falcon problem. The ship itself is fine (although maybe could stand to have its ECM strength bonus dropped down to pre-boost, so that its less than the Rook), the problem just comes from all the "solo" pvpers with falcon alts. Take for example this guy who use to run into our low sec system. He flew a geddon and would hug the gate back into high sec. His mid slot layout consisted of a web, a cap booster, and a point, so no propulsion mod of any kind. He was alone save for a falcon alt he would decloak if things got too rough for just his geddon to handle. Things like that are what breaks the ship (and the game IMO).
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:35:00 - [89] Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 29/12/2008 02:16:09 Every MMO I've ever played has at least one form of CC that's really obnoxiously annoying. In Eve, this takes the form of ECM. This. And there's always one class that's completely built around the overpowered CC mechanic, and you can't "fix/balance" the CC without completely nerfing that class to utter uselessness.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:42:00 - [90] I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!



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