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What's u'r opinion about Falcons?

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Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:08:00 - [31] Originally by: Christari Zuborov ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others. A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed. 32% with one jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Zantrei Kordisin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Christari Zuborov ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others. A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed. 32% with one jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again... It's about 50% with max skills on a Falcon. That's if the BS doesn't have ECCM fitted. Why is it unreasonable that a ship would have to fit maybe two modules to lower that to 15%? Falcons are not a problem, people being unwilling to fit the counter is. You don't see people complaining about requiring warp core stabilizers in order to warp when warp scrambled, do you? Or complain that there is no counter at all to neuts/nos? Same principle. The people complaining about falcons simply don't know how to fit their ships properly/don't know how to play the game properly. End of story. _________________________________________________________
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:22:00 - [33] I've been lucky enuff to come from good group based pvp games. EW is just a form CC. Just like nano was just kiting and over-extending. People have always hated CC because it takes alot of practice and coordination. Also some people hate playing support classes so they decide not to bring them.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Mal Plox it's a ship that does what it's supposed to. I've seen em insta popped, i've seen em turn tides of battles... it's a tissue paper thing EW ship that can be very effective. That's all there is to it. Pretty much. I hate them, but they are so easy to kill, and fairly decently priced, to hurt when lost.
Shyon Rhen	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:21:00 - [35] ask yourself this, have you ever been killed 1 on 1 by a falcon? odds are no. they're a support ship. have a falcon on your side jam them. or a blackbird or two. then have one of your battleships 1-shot it. they have 0 defense capabilities not counting cloak, which is rather limited all-things-considered. basically. quit the crying, its a great ship, sure. but extremely limited and it gets targeted/attacked the second it uncloaks, making it a dangerous ship for anyone of lower SP to fly.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Pan Crastus 32% with one jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again... If you had the correct racial jammers for each battleship, then you could expect to jam both ships using 6 jammers every cycle. For each incorrect match to race, your chances are a 1/3 of that for matched, or 1 in 9. So if you happened to run into a Falcon who has 6 or 7 matched jammers vs. 2 BSs that are also matched, then yeah I'd say both BSs are screwed. No one fits that, a typical fit is 2 jammers for 1 race, 1 jammer for each of the other races, and 1 multispec jammer that is 66% the strength of a matched jammer and a MWD.
gpfwestie Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:31:00 - [37] In general the recon ships were all overpowered (Curse, Rapier, Huginn) but were nerfed to hell with the Vamp and Speed nerfs. The Falcon is the last one left that has a use, and has not yet been nerfed. Once ECM is nerfed, recon ships can just be removed from the game (in fact all ewar ships). This will be good, as we can then stop worrying about tactics and just assume the side with the most Battleships wins and stop loading up the servers by trying to play the game.
Szent AdamKiraly Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:40:00 - [38] My opinion is that people like you are the reason i spin my ship in station all day because the whiners made it unflyable.
Seriya Caldari The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:52:00 - [39] The ability to disable 2-4 enemy ships from 250km range is excessively naughty. In combination with the ability to fit a Covops cloak it's downright silly.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:57:00 - [40] Originally by: Seriya The ability to disable 2-4 enemy ships from 250km range is excessively naughty. In combination with the ability to fit a Covops cloak it's downright silly. Bah, that Falcon pilot sucks... I jam 7 from 400k every roam I'm involved in.

Tortugan	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:59:00 - [41] While I fully support ECM as a significant part of fleet warfare, there is no doubt in my mind that in its current state, it is hugely overpowered. Consider this example: a roaming gang of approximately 5 battleships, 2 of which had 1 ECCM each (eccms were T2). We warp in on a roaming nano FW gang- cruisers, etc. with one falcon. That falcon manages to jam out our ENTIRE fleet in one cycle- ridiculous! The analogy has been made that nobody complains about equipping stabs to avoid warp scramming, etc. In my eyes, this argument is invalid specifically because of situations like the one above- 2 of our ships had active ECCMs, and yet still got jammed. The only parallel to that I can think of is a heavy interdictor busting through as many stabs as you put on your ship--- but can it equip 7 infinite scrams? Hell no! That would be ridiculously overpowered! Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:00:00 - [42] Never leave home without one. Sad truth for most gangs.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:11:00 - [43] I <3 my Falcon ^_^
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Tortugan Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram. You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8?
Sakura Nihil Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:28:00 - [45] They're fine. In the wrong hands, they pop like confetti at a New Year's party, but with some skill they can setup at long range and dominate the field. Before anybody starts complaining too much about them, they need to remember that there's a certain module called ECCM that they can put on their ship. One less midslot for other things, to be true, but in the process you render yourself a lot harder to jam - also, let me just say, Apocs fit with T2 tachyons/beams and an ECCM suck. Football? Hell yes.
Tortugan	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Tortugan Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram. You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8? Are you honestly saying you expecting every combat ship to sacrifice 2 slots for ECCM, and STILL have a significant (by your count, 12.5%) chance of being jammed? By any standards, that's ridiculous... imo, we need to see a more black and white solution to ECM- like a WCS... if I have 1 ECCM on my Domi, it should cancel out 1 Gallente Racial ECM- or something to that effect.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Tortugan Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram. You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8? Are you honestly saying you expecting every combat ship to sacrifice 2 slots for ECCM, and STILL have a significant (by your count, 12.5%) chance of being jammed? By any standards, that's ridiculous... imo, we need to see a more black and white solution to ECM- like a WCS... if I have 1 ECCM on my Domi, it should cancel out 1 Gallente Racial ECM- or something to that effect. Are you saying you wouldn't have been in a much better position vs. a bunch of cruisers and a falcon if you had? Which is more rediculous, you crying about how you sucked because you came unprepared, or you crying about sacrificing some of your gank ability to become much more effective?
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:48:00 - [48] 1. ECM mechanic sucks Nobody likes to lose lock and thus be unable to operate all target modules. It just feels bad, much worse than say TD's. No EW, no remote assistance, nothing. It effectively removes you from combat. PVPing when jammed gives you the feeling of having nothing relevant to do, and that's a sign bad game design. Has nothing to do with Falcons themselves, but contributes to the irritation factor. 2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. ECM and Falcons in particular are self-reinforcing. The more Falcons appear, the more necessary it becomes to bring Falcons yourself. Falcons fail the paper-scissors-rock property of good game design. 3. ECCM uses expensive mid slots and have no additional benefit Most other EW counters have other advantages if not hit by EW. Tracking computers, sensor boosters, cap boosters, they are all useful even if not hit with the EW they are meant to help counter. ECCM does not. Therefore the motivation to use ECCM is low, especially as it uses the most rare slots of all, midslots. Only the continued growth and nearly omnipresent appearance of ECM and Falcons in particular are having the effect of bigger ships fitting ECCM by default. I would be happy if Falcons didn't cause targets to lose lock, but just disabled all high slots from activating. Ships would still be able to scram, web or use remote ECM or other EW, but not fire/neutralize etc. It would also make the Falcon more vulnerable to small fast ships that might not be able to kill it, but could keep it tackled. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Tortugan	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Tortugan Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram. You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8? Are you honestly saying you expecting every combat ship to sacrifice 2 slots for ECCM, and STILL have a significant (by your count, 12.5%) chance of being jammed? By any standards, that's ridiculous... imo, we need to see a more black and white solution to ECM- like a WCS... if I have 1 ECCM on my Domi, it should cancel out 1 Gallente Racial ECM- or something to that effect. Are you saying you wouldn't have been in a much better position vs. a bunch of cruisers and a falcon if you had? Which is more rediculous, you crying about how you sucked because you came unprepared, or you crying about sacrificing some of your gank ability to become much more effective? What I'm saying is that I shouldn't need to sacrifice 2 slots in order to even garner a significant chance of avoiding a jam. My setup shouldn't revolve around avoiding being jammed- just as setups don't revolve around being anti-neut/nos or anti-warp scram.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.12.28 23:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Christari Zuborov ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others. A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed. 32% with one jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again... It's about 50% with max skills on a Falcon. Now do the math for a full rack of ECM. Quote: ... like all Falcon-piloting noobs, I'm full of meaningless analogies and phrases and devoid of any real arguments ... Fixed it for you. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming

Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.28 23:07:00 - [51] Eve is Ewar. Scram/ Jam/ Thank you mam. The Falcon is the emblem of the Eve Mantra. Nobody fights without tackle in EvE. The other problem is, there are no anti ewar ships so it is OP'ed. It has been said for a long time, first ship to jam, wins. It's proven over and over. DPS doesn't matter, you can't tank primary and it boils down to your ability to Ewar. Yes it sucks to sit there with your thumb up your ass waiting to be podded so yuo can get back to the jolly old ISK grind but it is EvE.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.12.28 23:09:00 - [52] Originally by: Merdaneth 2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. [...] While I agree with the rest of your points, this part isn't really true. Speed had many other counters as well and that's pretty much common knowledge and not far-fetched: - ECM (really!) - webs, esp. Huginn/Rapier and to some extent the Hyena - Neutralizers, esp. the Curse (many unlucky nano pilots died to ratters with 1 heavy Neutralizer!) - superior tanks with remote reps etc. As for "counters" needed to actually catch and kill something - that's not a counter, but a deathtrap and any pilot worth his ship knows how to not get killed (while not killing anything either). Especially when he has a cloak fitted. ;-P How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.12.28 23:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Merdaneth 1. ECM mechanic sucks Nobody likes to lose lock and thus be unable to operate all target modules. It just feels bad, much worse than say TD's. No EW, no remote assistance, nothing. It effectively removes you from combat. PVPing when jammed gives you the feeling of having nothing relevant to do, and that's a sign bad game design. Has nothing to do with Falcons themselves, but contributes to the irritation factor. 2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. ECM and Falcons in particular are self-reinforcing. The more Falcons appear, the more necessary it becomes to bring Falcons yourself. Falcons fail the paper-scissors-rock property of good game design. Your argument vs. ECM is that it's inconvenient to fit something that significantly reduces its effectiveness? The rest of your comments might be true if there wasn't a counter, but there is and you refuse to use it. You use cookie cutter ship setups and excpect to be able to handle every situation you encounter - that to me ruins the immersive quality of the gameplay, and doesn't fit within the rock-paper-scissor game design.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:01:00 - [54] Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 00:05:59 Probably needs a range nerf. If the published numbers and mechanism for ECM are correct I think it's about right strength-wise. A lot of the whinging about ECM suggests that they aren't but whether we take that as being correct or not depends on whether we trust the honesty and intelligence of the people posting those claims. Since Rule #1 is that people are stupid I'm inclined to think they're wrong but I'm putting this disclaimer in anyway just in case it turns out the random number gen is broken or something. The comment about the psychology of it is interesting. You're just as helpless if you're TD'd till you can't hit anything or neut'd down to 0 cap though, no? RSDs need a buff of some sort. The problem is I could never see one being useful for a gang I fly in because all the DPS ships do DPS from inside the range you can damp a BS down to. Could have one with damp-time scripts but it will lock eventually. The Pilgrim should suck less. Apart from that I think e-war should be effective. I think a mixed gang should > a single ship type gang. I think tactics should > F1-F8. The idea that EVE had electronic warfare was one of the things that got me playing in the first place tbh.
Jaco Matari Minmatar Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Davina Braben Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 00:05:59 The comment about the psychology of it is interesting. You're just as helpless if you're TD'd till you can't hit anything or neut'd down to 0 cap though, no? But you're not useless in either of those situations. If I am neuted, I can still fire my capless projectile weapons, assign drone targets and fire missiles at the target. If I am tracking disrupted I can still fire missiles, assign targets to my drones, and use my own EWAR (Webs/ painters/ whatever). ECM removes my ability to do any of those things. And before you say adapt or die, any utility mid I have is usually allocated to a Ladar ECCM, but with Minmatar's low sensor strength it hardly seems to matter. I don't really want a nerf of the Falcon, but a buff for ECCM would be nice. -------------------------------------------------- Signature
Crystalline Entity DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:34:00 - [56] Honestly, people who like falcons dislike pvp CE
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:41:00 - [57] if people started learning how to use ECCM, they'd quickly see just how fragile the Falcon can be. - Captain Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Caoim Fearghul Caldari Fearghul Corp The Dominion Empire	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:46:00 - [58] To those who want a 1 to 1 ECCM stops ECM system, guess what, that WAS the old system and people moaned about how overpowered it was since you could just fit X points and be assured of jamming someone. They altered it to a random chance mechanism to help balance it. Consider this when comparing it to RSD, TD and NOS/NEUT, with all those do they have a percentage chance to do nothing when you activate them? Frankly, while I hate being jammed it's not really overpowered. The falcon alone wont kill you after all, and it's one less DPS dealer pounding on you. As for the talk of "Well I can still fire capless stuff or direct drones..." go train FoF missiles and consider using the "assist" and "guard" functions to get your drones into the action. I'm sorry if it means doing something different from hitting your pewpew button...but adapt or die Prodesse Non Nocere
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:01:00 - [59] Originally by: Caoim Fearghul I'm sorry if it means doing something different from hitting your pewpew button...but adapt or die ... training a Falcon PVP condom alt already. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:02:00 - [60] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Originally by: Seriya The ability to disable 2-4 enemy ships from 250km range is excessively naughty. In combination with the ability to fit a Covops cloak it's downright silly. Bah, that Falcon pilot sucks... I jam 7 from 400k every roam I'm involved in. Oh yeah, well I can destroy your ship the second you get in it, then Jam your keyboard so that you cant logout.



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