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big miker
Minmatar
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.28 17:57:00 -
[1]
I want to know how many hate them and how many ppl ectualy like them.
In my opinion?
Overpoweredpussiecatcantwinwithoutonebetterthenanyotherewar ship... 
So, whats ur opinion?
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Mal Plox
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:02:00 -
[2]
it's a ship that does what it's supposed to. I've seen em insta popped, i've seen em turn tides of battles...
it's a tissue paper thing EW ship that can be very effective. That's all there is to it.
---
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fightnkill
Violent Fury
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:02:00 -
[3]
Edited by: fightnkill on 28/12/2008 18:03:17
a Domi with 3x Magnenometric ECCM II + overheat and still got jammed 
can't even tackle them when they're 120km away, and just cloaks/jams when someone approaches them
oya, they ruin solo/small gang pvp.
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:03:00 -
[4]
hey hey
I think its a perfect ship.
does what its designed to do
relativly cheap
people are using them correctly
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big miker
Minmatar
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:04:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Mikal Drey
hey hey
I think its a perfect ship.
does what its designed to do
relativly cheap
people are using them correctly
Being used a bit too much, tough >.>
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:09:00 -
[6]
My opinion is that "your", "people", and "actually" aren't particularly hard or taxing words to spell.
Also, Falcons give damps a purpose… 
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Jack Light
Beyond All Frontier
White Core
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:10:00 -
[7]
Nerf ECM!
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Javelin6
Minmatar
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:11:00 -
[8]
Great force-multiplier. It really helps our small groups ( ship size and numbers) engage and win against larger groups that have many times more firepower. Extremely cost effective.
However, I will concede that from time to time it comes down to who has the most Falcons on the grid wins.
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Burning Horizon
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:11:00 -
[9]
ECM does need a nerf tbh
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:21:00 -
[10]
one of the reasons why they are being used to much is because its such an effective ship. everything about it is perfectly setup to compliment a gang wether its fleet or roaming.
I remember when scorpions were fotm but even they have been surpassed by the Falcon. If you look at the whole ECM range then you can see that the falcon would be your ship of choice.
Blackbird (no cloak)
Kitsune (tinfoil)
Rook (no cloak)
Falcon PERFECT
Scorpion (very fleet specific)
Widow (way to expensive)
i think you have to ask yourself that if you were an ECM pilot which ship you would fly. one of the reasons we believe that a falcon is overpowered is mostly because they are the ONLY ship of choice.
ECM on the whole has always been a huge bone of contention in PVP as ECM itself i so very powerfull. the playerbase loves to cry on the forums and never seem to see the big picture. IF CCP nerf falcons then what will be the next ECM ship of choice ?
ECM also has a crappy countermeasure(s) which adds to the ECM overpowerdness. Instead of falcon nerfing. ECCM/FOF's both need a huge development boost.
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big miker
Minmatar
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tippia
My opinion is that "your", "people", and "actually" aren't particularly hard or taxing words to spell.
Also, Falcons give damps a purposeā
Shutup about someone's spelling will you?
Besides, damps don't have to optimal range of 100 / 150 km, do they?
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Tellenta
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tippia
My opinion is that "your", "people", and "actually" aren't particularly hard or taxing words to spell.
Also, Falcons give damps a purposeā
Is he saying your, or you are? it's hard to tell :(
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Mors Magne
Caldari
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jack Light
Nerf ECM!
 Should ECM be nerfed, or is it Falcons that just need nerfing
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Zantrei Kordisin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: big miker
I want to know how many hate them and how many ppl ectualy like them.
In my opinion?
Overpoweredpussiecatcantwinwithoutonebetterthenanyotherewar ship...
So, whats ur opinion?
I agree, there is a very real, massive issue with the Falcon, and CCP need to address it immediately. They don't do nearly enough damage and nor do they have any real tackling ability without putting themselves in a rather risky position. I personally feel an additional medium slot, a +100% warp disruptor range per level bonus and four further high slots and launcher slots are needed to make it a decent ship. Right now it is useless, all it can do is sit at range jamming, and has to run away if anyone tries to kill it.
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Louis DelaBlanche
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:24:00 -
[15]
boost eccm. nerf alts.
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Jack Light
Beyond All Frontier
White Core
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:43:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jack Light on 28/12/2008 18:45:16
Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche
boost eccm. nerf alts.
Boost Roflcakes, nerf forums.
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Berious
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:54:00 -
[17]
Overpowered and breeding like rabbits. Also the only recon I don't suck in.
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Iva Soreass
Gentlemen Bastards
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:54:00 -
[18]
My opinion of them is people need to stop trying to throw thier toys out the pram and crying and man up and get some tactics to deal with them.
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CHAOS100
Black Plague.
Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:57:00 -
[19]
It's the best thing Caldari has atm and makes them more viable for PVP.
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baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: big miker
Originally by: Tippia
My opinion is that "your", "people", and "actually" aren't particularly hard or taxing words to spell.
Also, Falcons give damps a purposeā
Shutup about someone's spelling will you?
Besides, damps don't have to optimal range of 100 / 150 km, do they?
Doesnt stop me using them on my bomber to great effect.
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:02:00 -
[21]
I think it is an awesome ship for so many situations and very hard to kill when flown with a skilled pilot. And with the speed changes it now takes twice as long to get to them. More then enough time to jam or warp away. If you are Caldari it is the ship to fly and every gang will want you.
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Tellenta
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mors Magne
Originally by: Jack Light
Nerf ECM!
Should ECM be nerfed, or is it Falcons that just need nerfing
I say let ECM users enjoy the sh-t fest that is scripts like ECM range where they can barely ecm a velator, or ecm strength where ECM is uber but they can't sit 120km off anymore. That would make me feel better.
*wanders off mumbling about scripts*
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Burning Horizon
ECM does need a nerf tbh
"adapt or die"
ECM as a mechanism is fine.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:22:00 -
[24]
I know what my opinion on flamebait is.
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Tellenta
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Burning Horizon
ECM does need a nerf tbh
"adapt or die"
ECM as a mechanism is fine.
I like this adapt or die thing when used in conjunction with the smell of fear of change. It has the smell of oh my god please don't make me adapt, combined with the belittlement of those who have a difficulty adapting.
Keep it up you make me smile.
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Captain Pompous
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:48:00 -
[26]
i think they are beautiful birds and should be protected as an endangered species
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Corduroy Rab
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:50:00 -
[27]
When they are jamming my enemy, I love them.
When they are jamming me, I hate them.
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Captain Pompous
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:51:00 -
[28]
also my opinion on people who insist on using textspeak in everyday usage is pretty clear, too
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:56:00 -
[29]
ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others.
A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed.
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.12.28 20:06:00 -
[30]
Falcons are simply not in line with other recons, let alone other ships in EVE. They are the only ones that can completely disable 3, sometimes more ships with relative ease, even if those ships fit 1 ECCM each (which is useless for anything else than countering ECM). On top of that, they can do it from 100km+ and they can warp cloaked.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.12.28 20:08:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others.
A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed.
32% with *one* jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again...
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Zantrei Kordisin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 20:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others.
A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed.
32% with *one* jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again...
It's about 50% with max skills on a Falcon.
That's if the BS doesn't have ECCM fitted. Why is it unreasonable that a ship would have to fit maybe two modules to lower that to 15%? Falcons are not a problem, people being unwilling to fit the counter is.
You don't see people complaining about requiring warp core stabilizers in order to warp when warp scrambled, do you? Or complain that there is no counter at all to neuts/nos? Same principle. The people complaining about falcons simply don't know how to fit their ships properly/don't know how to play the game properly. End of story.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.12.28 20:22:00 -
[33]
I've been lucky enuff to come from good group based pvp games. EW is just a form CC. Just like nano was just kiting and over-extending. People have always hated CC because it takes alot of practice and coordination. Also some people hate playing support classes so they decide not to bring them.
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rValdez5987
Amarr
32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 20:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Mal Plox
it's a ship that does what it's supposed to. I've seen em insta popped, i've seen em turn tides of battles...
it's a tissue paper thing EW ship that can be very effective. That's all there is to it.
Pretty much. I hate them, but they are so easy to kill, and fairly decently priced, to hurt when lost.
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Shyon Rhen
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:21:00 -
[35]
ask yourself this,
have you ever been killed 1 on 1 by a falcon? odds are no.
they're a support ship. have a falcon on your side jam them. or a blackbird or two. then have one of your battleships 1-shot it. they have 0 defense capabilities not counting cloak, which is rather limited all-things-considered.
basically. quit the crying, its a great ship, sure. but extremely limited and it gets targeted/attacked the second it uncloaks, making it a dangerous ship for anyone of lower SP to fly.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
32% with *one* jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again...
If you had the correct racial jammers for each battleship, then you could expect to jam both ships using 6 jammers every cycle. For each incorrect match to race, your chances are a 1/3 of that for matched, or 1 in 9. So if you happened to run into a Falcon who has 6 or 7 matched jammers vs. 2 BSs that are also matched, then yeah I'd say both BSs are screwed.
No one fits that, a typical fit is 2 jammers for 1 race, 1 jammer for each of the other races, and 1 multispec jammer that is 66% the strength of a matched jammer and a MWD.
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gpfwestie
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:31:00 -
[37]
In general the recon ships were all overpowered (Curse, Rapier, Huginn) but were nerfed to hell with the Vamp and Speed nerfs.
The Falcon is the last one left that has a use, and has not yet been nerfed.
Once ECM is nerfed, recon ships can just be removed from the game (in fact all ewar ships).
This will be good, as we can then stop worrying about tactics and just assume the side with the most Battleships wins and stop loading up the servers by trying to play the game.
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Szent AdamKiraly
Art of War
Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:40:00 -
[38]
My opinion is that people like you are the reason i spin my ship in station all day because the whiners made it unflyable.
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Seriya
Caldari
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:52:00 -
[39]
The ability to disable 2-4 enemy ships from 250km range is excessively naughty. In combination with the ability to fit a Covops cloak it's downright silly.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:57:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Seriya
The ability to disable 2-4 enemy ships from 250km range is excessively naughty. In combination with the ability to fit a Covops cloak it's downright silly.
Bah, that Falcon pilot sucks... I jam 7 from 400k every roam I'm involved in.
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Tortugan
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Posted - 2008.12.28 21:59:00 -
[41]
While I fully support ECM as a significant part of fleet warfare, there is no doubt in my mind that in its current state, it is hugely overpowered.
Consider this example: a roaming gang of approximately 5 battleships, 2 of which had 1 ECCM each (eccms were T2). We warp in on a roaming nano FW gang- cruisers, etc. with one falcon. That falcon manages to jam out our ENTIRE fleet in one cycle- ridiculous!
The analogy has been made that nobody complains about equipping stabs to avoid warp scramming, etc. In my eyes, this argument is invalid specifically because of situations like the one above- 2 of our ships had active ECCMs, and yet still got jammed.
The only parallel to that I can think of is a heavy interdictor busting through as many stabs as you put on your ship--- but can it equip 7 infinite scrams? Hell no! That would be ridiculously overpowered!
Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram.
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:00:00 -
[42]
Never leave home without one.
Sad truth for most gangs.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Ninjas N Pirates
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:11:00 -
[43]
I <3 my Falcon ^_^
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tortugan
Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram.
You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8?
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:28:00 -
[45]
They're fine. In the wrong hands, they pop like confetti at a New Year's party, but with some skill they can setup at long range and dominate the field.
Before anybody starts complaining too much about them, they need to remember that there's a certain module called ECCM that they can put on their ship. One less midslot for other things, to be true, but in the process you render yourself a lot harder to jam - also, let me just say, Apocs fit with T2 tachyons/beams and an ECCM suck.
Football? Hell yes. |
Tortugan
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:30:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Tortugan
Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram.
You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8?
Are you honestly saying you expecting every combat ship to sacrifice 2 slots for ECCM, and STILL have a significant (by your count, 12.5%) chance of being jammed? By any standards, that's ridiculous... imo, we need to see a more black and white solution to ECM- like a WCS... if I have 1 ECCM on my Domi, it should cancel out 1 Gallente Racial ECM- or something to that effect.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Tortugan
Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram.
You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8?
Are you honestly saying you expecting every combat ship to sacrifice 2 slots for ECCM, and STILL have a significant (by your count, 12.5%) chance of being jammed? By any standards, that's ridiculous... imo, we need to see a more black and white solution to ECM- like a WCS... if I have 1 ECCM on my Domi, it should cancel out 1 Gallente Racial ECM- or something to that effect.
Are you saying you wouldn't have been in a much better position vs. a bunch of cruisers and a falcon if you had? Which is more rediculous, you crying about how you sucked because you came unprepared, or you crying about sacrificing some of your gank ability to become much more effective?
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:48:00 -
[48]
1. ECM mechanic sucks
Nobody likes to lose lock and thus be unable to operate all target modules. It just feels bad, much worse than say TD's. No EW, no remote assistance, nothing. It effectively removes you from combat. PVPing when jammed gives you the feeling of having nothing relevant to do, and that's a sign bad game design. Has nothing to do with Falcons themselves, but contributes to the irritation factor.
2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons
This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. ECM and Falcons in particular are self-reinforcing. The more Falcons appear, the more necessary it becomes to bring Falcons yourself. Falcons fail the paper-scissors-rock property of good game design.
3. ECCM uses expensive mid slots and have no additional benefit
Most other EW counters have other advantages if not hit by EW. Tracking computers, sensor boosters, cap boosters, they are all useful even if not hit with the EW they are meant to help counter. ECCM does not. Therefore the motivation to use ECCM is low, especially as it uses the most rare slots of all, midslots. Only the continued growth and nearly omnipresent appearance of ECM and Falcons in particular are having the effect of bigger ships fitting ECCM by default.
I would be happy if Falcons didn't cause targets to lose lock, but just disabled all high slots from activating. Ships would still be able to scram, web or use remote ECM or other EW, but not fire/neutralize etc. It would also make the Falcon more vulnerable to small fast ships that might not be able to kill it, but could keep it tackled.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Tortugan
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Tortugan
Again- I want to see ECM used in battles, but it should be EASILY countered by sacrificing a med or low slot- just like a cap booster for neut/nos or a stab for a scram.
You do realize that if your 5 BSs had 1 backup array and 1 eccm fitted on each of them, MAYBE only 1 would have been jammed per cycle? or 2 of them jammed in any cycle would have been 1 in 8?
Are you honestly saying you expecting every combat ship to sacrifice 2 slots for ECCM, and STILL have a significant (by your count, 12.5%) chance of being jammed? By any standards, that's ridiculous... imo, we need to see a more black and white solution to ECM- like a WCS... if I have 1 ECCM on my Domi, it should cancel out 1 Gallente Racial ECM- or something to that effect.
Are you saying you wouldn't have been in a much better position vs. a bunch of cruisers and a falcon if you had? Which is more rediculous, you crying about how you sucked because you came unprepared, or you crying about sacrificing some of your gank ability to become much more effective?
What I'm saying is that I shouldn't need to sacrifice 2 slots in order to even garner a significant chance of avoiding a jam. My setup shouldn't revolve around avoiding being jammed- just as setups don't revolve around being anti-neut/nos or anti-warp scram.
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.12.28 23:02:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
ECM isn't overpowered, it's just very effective vs. certain ship types, and very weak vs. others.
A properly fit sniper BS has a 32% chance of being jammed with the correct racial jammer and will kill a Falcon in 2-3 volleys. If you have two of them, the Falcon is pretty much screwed.
32% with *one* jammer, right? Only Falcons have 7 medium slots, so 2 BS are screwed for sure. If they aren't jammed for some reason, the Falcon can still simply warp away and then come back immediately to try again...
It's about 50% with max skills on a Falcon.
Now do the math for a full rack of ECM.
Quote:
... like all Falcon-piloting noobs, I'm full of meaningless analogies and phrases and devoid of any real arguments ...
Fixed it for you.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.12.28 23:07:00 -
[51]
Eve is Ewar. Scram/ Jam/ Thank you mam. The Falcon is the emblem of the Eve Mantra. Nobody fights without tackle in EvE.
The other problem is, there are no anti ewar ships so it is OP'ed.
It has been said for a long time, first ship to jam, wins. It's proven over and over. DPS doesn't matter, you can't tank primary and it boils down to your ability to Ewar.
Yes it sucks to sit there with your thumb up your ass waiting to be podded so yuo can get back to the jolly old ISK grind but it is EvE. |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.12.28 23:09:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Merdaneth
2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons
This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. [...]
While I agree with the rest of your points, this part isn't really true. Speed had many other counters as well and that's pretty much common knowledge and not far-fetched:
- ECM (really!)
- webs, esp. Huginn/Rapier and to some extent the Hyena
- Neutralizers, esp. the Curse (many unlucky nano pilots died to ratters with 1 heavy Neutralizer!)
- superior tanks with remote reps etc.
As for "counters" needed to actually catch and kill something - that's not a counter, but a deathtrap and any pilot worth his ship knows how to not get killed (while not killing anything either). Especially when he has a cloak fitted. ;-P
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 23:09:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Merdaneth
1. ECM mechanic sucks
Nobody likes to lose lock and thus be unable to operate all target modules. It just feels bad, much worse than say TD's. No EW, no remote assistance, nothing. It effectively removes you from combat. PVPing when jammed gives you the feeling of having nothing relevant to do, and that's a sign bad game design. Has nothing to do with Falcons themselves, but contributes to the irritation factor.
2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons
This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. ECM and Falcons in particular are self-reinforcing. The more Falcons appear, the more necessary it becomes to bring Falcons yourself. Falcons fail the paper-scissors-rock property of good game design.
Your argument vs. ECM is that it's inconvenient to fit something that significantly reduces its effectiveness? The rest of your comments might be true if there wasn't a counter, but there is and you refuse to use it.
You use cookie cutter ship setups and excpect to be able to handle every situation you encounter - that to me ruins the immersive quality of the gameplay, and doesn't fit within the rock-paper-scissor game design.
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.12.29 00:01:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 00:05:59
Probably needs a range nerf.
If the published numbers and mechanism for ECM are correct I think it's about right strength-wise.
A lot of the whinging about ECM suggests that they aren't but whether we take that as being correct or not depends on whether we trust the honesty and intelligence of the people posting those claims. Since Rule #1 is that people are stupid I'm inclined to think they're wrong but I'm putting this disclaimer in anyway just in case it turns out the random number gen is broken or something.
The comment about the psychology of it is interesting. You're just as helpless if you're TD'd till you can't hit anything or neut'd down to 0 cap though, no?
RSDs need a buff of some sort. The problem is I could never see one being useful for a gang I fly in because all the DPS ships do DPS from inside the range you can damp a BS down to. Could have one with damp-time scripts but it will lock eventually.
The Pilgrim should suck less.
Apart from that I think e-war should be effective.
I think a mixed gang should > a single ship type gang.
I think tactics should > F1-F8.
The idea that EVE had electronic warfare was one of the things that got me playing in the first place tbh.
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Jaco Matari
Minmatar
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.12.29 01:20:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Davina Braben
Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 00:05:59
The comment about the psychology of it is interesting. You're just as helpless if you're TD'd till you can't hit anything or neut'd down to 0 cap though, no?
But you're not useless in either of those situations. If I am neuted, I can still fire my capless projectile weapons, assign drone targets and fire missiles at the target. If I am tracking disrupted I can still fire missiles, assign targets to my drones, and use my own EWAR (Webs/ painters/ whatever). ECM removes my ability to do any of those things.
And before you say adapt or die, any utility mid I have is usually allocated to a Ladar ECCM, but with Minmatar's low sensor strength it hardly seems to matter. I don't really want a nerf of the Falcon, but a buff for ECCM would be nice.
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Signature |
Crystalline Entity
DEATH'S LEGION
Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 01:34:00 -
[56]
Honestly, people who like falcons dislike pvp
CE
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 01:41:00 -
[57]
if people started learning how to use ECCM, they'd quickly see just how fragile the Falcon can be.
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Captain Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Caoim Fearghul
Caldari
Fearghul Corp
The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.29 01:46:00 -
[58]
To those who want a 1 to 1 ECCM stops ECM system, guess what, that WAS the old system and people moaned about how overpowered it was since you could just fit X points and be assured of jamming someone. They altered it to a random chance mechanism to help balance it.
Consider this when comparing it to RSD, TD and NOS/NEUT, with all those do they have a percentage chance to do nothing when you activate them?
Frankly, while I hate being jammed it's not really overpowered. The falcon alone wont kill you after all, and it's one less DPS dealer pounding on you. As for the talk of "Well I can still fire capless stuff or direct drones..." go train FoF missiles and consider using the "assist" and "guard" functions to get your drones into the action. I'm sorry if it means doing something different from hitting your pewpew button...but adapt or die
Prodesse Non Nocere
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.12.29 02:01:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Caoim Fearghul
I'm sorry if it means doing something different from hitting your pewpew button...but adapt or die
... training a Falcon PVP condom alt already.
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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rValdez5987
Amarr
32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 02:02:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Seriya
The ability to disable 2-4 enemy ships from 250km range is excessively naughty. In combination with the ability to fit a Covops cloak it's downright silly.
Bah, that Falcon pilot sucks... I jam 7 from 400k every roam I'm involved in.
Oh yeah, well I can destroy your ship the second you get in it, then Jam your keyboard so that you cant logout.
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2008.12.29 02:10:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 02:13:37
Originally by: Jaco Matari
Originally by: Davina Braben
Edited by: Davina Braben on 29/12/2008 00:05:59
The comment about the psychology of it is interesting. You're just as helpless if you're TD'd till you can't hit anything or neut'd down to 0 cap though, no?
But you're not useless in either of those situations. If I am neuted, I can still fire my capless projectile weapons, assign drone targets and fire missiles at the target. If I am tracking disrupted I can still fire missiles, assign targets to my drones, and use my own EWAR (Webs/ painters/ whatever). ECM removes my ability to do any of those things.
And before you say adapt or die, any utility mid I have is usually allocated to a Ladar ECCM, but with Minmatar's low sensor strength it hardly seems to matter. I don't really want a nerf of the Falcon, but a buff for ECCM would be nice.
RSDs would totally prevent you from doing several of these things though.
The only way round this irritation factor is coming up with some new mechanism that isn't like RSDs.
Maybe some change to the way they effect locking (can lock, can't use modules?) or vary with range without making them into RSDs?
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Kessiaan
Minmatar
Army of One
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Posted - 2008.12.29 02:11:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Kessiaan on 29/12/2008 02:16:09
Falcons are fine, other recons are junky and should be buffed up.
Every MMO I've ever played has at least one form of CC that's really obnoxiously annoying. In Eve, this takes the form of ECM.
There's nothing wrong with ECM as a concept, but totally shutting down a player is always going to be far more annoying than making them less effective but still able to act.
If I were to change ECM, I'd eliminate NPC ECM (at least from FW plexes, Caldari rats can swing a pvp engagement in a way no other race's rats can), and make it so ECCM grants a flat resistance bonus to ECM (maybe 40%-50% per ECCM module).
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Ezael Whiteshadow
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Posted - 2008.12.29 02:38:00 -
[63]
Originally by: big miker
Edited by: big miker on 28/12/2008 18:30:11
I want to know how many hate them and how many ppl ectualy like them.
In my opinion?
Overpoweredpussiecatcantwinwithoutonebetterthenanyotherewar ship...
So, whats ur opinion? ( Ecm aswell )
Boo Hoo! Moan moan moan. Let me guess, you got blown up recently and someone had a falcon in the gang? (It wasn't me was it?) As a Falcon pilot I can tell you that we are already very vulnerable, but of course when you come across lazy players like yourself who don't look into how to beat us. And to be honest, it only seems as though we are overpowered cos we will only go after a target we have a very good chance of jamming. So its more to the point to say that you are pants compared to falcons being too powerful.
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SirMoric
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.29 02:45:00 -
[64]
The Falcon is the ship of teamplayers.
People who doesn't count DPS, but like contributing to a common goal, without being the one dealing the most damage.
The Falcon is one reason why you should crosstrain Caldari, and a good reason it is.
But since people doesn't like Caldari, it's easier just getting them nerfed instead of taking advantage of them.
The Falcon is the best ship in it's class, but not unbeatable. If you nerf it, people will just start showing up in other ships and pwn you.
rgds
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Sparky12
Caldari
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
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Posted - 2008.12.29 03:33:00 -
[65]
Stop whining and learn to deal with them I fly one and let me tell you it's fragile and its expensive you can have an inty come out to you and the rest of the fleet can warp to the inty on top of your falcon and that can end very badly or if you are switched on you will live and since the Caldari ships have been hit with the nerf bat the falcon is the only decent effective ship Caldari has left for PVP. Maybe we should nerf all guns as they do damage to other ships that way we can all live in harmony and become Carebears flying around admiring the scenery.
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Gaia Thorn
Villains
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Posted - 2008.12.29 08:39:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Sparky12
Stop whining and learn to deal with them I fly one and let me tell you it's fragile and its expensive you can have an inty come out to you and the rest of the fleet can warp to the inty on top of your falcon and that can end very badly or if you are switched on you will live and since the Caldari ships have been hit with the nerf bat the falcon is the only decent effective ship Caldari has left for PVP. Maybe we should nerf all guns as they do damage to other ships that way we can all live in harmony and become Carebears flying around admiring the scenery.
Stop whining ?
Are you for real .. cmon you got a ship that is untouchable at 190km+ and can warp of come back and take atleast 2 ships completly out of a fight.
Atleast with RSD's you could atleast get close to someone and manage to get a lock on him.
With a falcon you are pretty much toast.
And all other recons ewar has a range under 100km whilst falcons can operate upto 200km+ if u got the proper skills and bonuses.
So yeah script the falcon welcome it down to the rest of us cannon fodder then maybe you can get back on your high horse and ride into the sunset.
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Frug
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.29 09:06:00 -
[67]
They're a bit OP, but if they get messed with, the caldari will lose their best pvp ship, and will be sorely lacking in their lineup.
I'd say their range could get reduced a bit without much harm. Reducing their effectiveness is lame. It's all they've got.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
MacGrowler III
The Legion of Spoon
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Posted - 2008.12.29 09:14:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Now do the math for a full rack of ECM.
No matter how many ECM modules you have you cannot have a 100% chance of jamming a ship. Mathematically speaking you cannot just add up 2 x 50% to equal 100% when it comes to chance calculations. It's a bit like calculating resists, no matter what modules you add you can't get to 100% EM resists on any (non dev) ships.
For example, You activate your first ECM module with a 50% chance of jamming and it fails, your second module still only has a 50% chance of jamming. If that fails, then guess what? Your third module will only have a 50% chance at jamming also. Eventually you can reduce the odds, but you can NEVER 100% guarantee a jam.
Now as to falcons being overpowered, well I certainly don't want to leave on a roam without at least one in the gang. 
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Gabriel Virtus
Cassandra's Light
Caeruleum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 09:34:00 -
[69]
The falcon isn't in line with the other ewar ships in the game. The problem is ECM itself and the ships that have the buffs for it. ECM without the buffs isn't in line with much of the other ewar, but once you include all of the buffs that caldari ewar ships have, it is overpowered. With recent changes to speeds (nano is dead for the most part), the falcon has become even more unbalanced because of its range.
I am not going to sit here and emorage about how unbalanced the ewar is in this game, but I think it almost ridiculous for anyone to claim that caldari ewar and ECMs in general is not by far the best ewar in the game.
Flame on
-GV
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big miker
Minmatar
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2008.12.29 09:45:00 -
[70]
How about RSD's get a big optimal range increase 
They'd atleast be very effective vs long range ecm ships, for sure.
This won't nerf ecm, but it will give the much needed RSD boost in my opinion.
Any idea's?
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
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Posted - 2008.12.29 09:55:00 -
[71]
The way it is now, falcons have way too much impact on a lot of fights. Their range and the way ecm and eccm works right now is too blame.
If RSD's would get a big range increase it would only get worse, imagine a falcon with ecm and a few rsd's :/
ECM needs tweaking, maybe the sensor strengths of ships need tweaking, maybe the eccm's, maybe ecm cycles/range/scripting. The way it is now it's just not quite even.
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me..
Drone guide.. |
maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 09:56:00 -
[72]
Falcons hurt solo pvpers but meh if a falcon is involved its at least 2 - 1 against the solo player anyway if not more.
They make mid sized gang combat very interesting and tactical instead of static.
While being pretty much ineffective in large gangs/fleets.
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 10:11:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus
The falcon isn't in line with the other ewar ships in the game. The problem is ECM itself and the ships that have the buffs for it. ECM without the buffs isn't in line with much of the other ewar, but once you include all of the buffs that caldari ewar ships have, it is overpowered. With recent changes to speeds (nano is dead for the most part), the falcon has become even more unbalanced because of its range.
I don't see tears about sniper battleships, they operate at same ranges and unlike falcon can even kill something.
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I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
McFly
C0LDFIRE
RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 10:17:00 -
[74]
I say that falcon's are only as good as their pilots are in them. and jamming isn't 100% I've gone down before with dual racial jammers on a sensor booster stiletto that got a lock on me and approached ... he finally got close to me and picked away and i never got a jam on him. But also I've jammed up an entire lowsec pirate RR gate camp gang to watch them go emoraging in local as a state war academy badger went by.
Also one comparison a lot of people leave out on the falcon/rook debate and other recon's is all the other recons have 2 EWs. Minnie TP/Webs, Amarr Neut/Nos/Tracking, Gallente damps/scramb/disruptors.... now I'm not saying that they are balance because I dont think they really are, but I wanted to point out a lot of people leave out that the caldari recons are the only one's with 1 EW system.
ECM itself is a messed up mechanic, but damps before they were stacking nerfed were the same way. I do think ECM needs a relook. But as far as falcon is concerned it has a job, it does it well. And if it's unlucky it dies a quick horrible death.. u can't tank it, u can't kill anything with it, but you can screw up an enemy gang with it real good.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 10:25:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Burning Horizon
ECM does need a nerf tbh
"adapt or die"
ECM as a mechanism is fine.
This.
Falcons are the only real PvP ships a Caldari skilled char can bring.
Stop crying ffs.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Ralarina
Caldari
Vivicide
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Posted - 2008.12.29 10:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: big miker
Edited by: big miker on 28/12/2008 18:30:11
I want to know how many hate them and how many ppl ectualy like them.
In my opinion?
Overpoweredpussiecatcantwinwithoutonebetterthenanyotherewar ship...
So, whats ur opinion? ( Ecm aswell )
There's a reason I'm training 3 chars up on them atm... 
--
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Gaia Thorn
Villains
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Posted - 2008.12.29 10:39:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Colonel Xaven
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Burning Horizon
ECM does need a nerf tbh
"adapt or die"
ECM as a mechanism is fine.
This.
Falcons are the only real PvP ships a Caldari skilled char can bring.
Stop crying ffs.
Well according to all you falcon hippies the falcon isnt a pvp ship its a support vessel.
how about you fielding a rokh blaster or rail or maybe torp raven or maybe a nasty drake ?
How about u stop crying and use the ship available to you ?
Not seeing that the falcon is overpowered may it be via ECM or the ship itself dont matter them two together = iWin button if you are the only one fielding em, if not its a jam fest where you are happy to actually target anything or just until everyone tires of not being able to lock **** and warp off.
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ZenSun
Total Mayhem.
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.12.29 11:12:00 -
[78]
Edited by: ZenSun on 29/12/2008 11:13:56
Hated ECM from the start, regardless if it's a tactical maneuver in the field, it just straight out bores me...
It's a pussies tool if you use it in mass numbers, your just too scared to put up a good fight.
However I wouldn't be so harsh to it if ECCM was actually half effective, I am hearing people burn 3 ECCM II's overheated and still get jammed, I don't know about you but I shouldn't think that 4 mid slots should be sacrificed to stop being jammed when half the time you are still getting jammed.
I use one on my Armageddon and each time I am getting jammed, I think of scrapping the module and going for something else.
Adapt or Die - Ball****, stop leaning on that ****ing phrase, it has nothing to do with adapting, it's to do with just being an overpowered ship which pussies use in a gross amounts.
woops |
Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.29 11:50:00 -
[79]
Falcons are fine. If anything its other recons that needs a boost to their ewar to get away from this idiotic idea that pvp should be pure tank + spank like so many seem to want.
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Gaia Thorn
Villains
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Posted - 2008.12.29 11:56:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Esmenet
Falcons are fine. If anything its other recons that needs a boost to their ewar to get away from this idiotic idea that pvp should be pure tank + spank like so many seem to want.
So who is gonna be fighting when everyone is jamming dampening each other to **** ? whilst the few combat that are suppose to slug it out cant do **** but sit there and sigh ?
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 11:56:00 -
[81]
Originally by: ZenSun
It's a pussies tool if you use it in mass numbers, your just too scared to put up a good fight.
Wrong. It's a tool to ruin stupid newbie tactics.
If ECCM would be 100% effective, then a shield hardener would have 100% resistance aswell.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
MADDOGzors
THE FINAL STAND
Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 12:02:00 -
[82]
And you'd be 100% braindead.
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BiggestT
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.29 12:22:00 -
[83]
While I understand how annoying is is to be jammed, and i wouldnt really mind an ecm CHANGE (NOT using the word nerf), I think alot of people are over-reacting.
Calling falcon pilots "pussies" simply because they used a tactic that beats your tactic is hillarious. Its like calling an invading riflemen army that just conqoured (<-spelling?) your swordsman army pussies because they brought guns to a knife fight (hehe switched the saying).
EVE history
t2 precisions |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 12:48:00 -
[84]
Originally by: BiggestT
While I understand how annoying is is to be jammed, and i wouldnt really mind an ecm CHANGE (NOT using the word nerf), ...
ECM has been changed a long time ago. I think it has been proven that the current mechanics are fine and some ppl still cannot counter it by any reason (for those who can't, look into this post for a lesson by Stuart Price, obviously a good PvP pilot).
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
kessah
The Accursed
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Posted - 2008.12.29 12:59:00 -
[85]
There was a concept that CCP were thinking of introducing. Allow the ability to overload ECCM with a script, making you immune to jamming for 30 seconds, but in the process burning it out for approx 2mins.
Theres quite alot of problems with the idea, but at least they were at one time considering something to help Solo pvp'ers like myself the ability to realistically defend when trying to fight alone.
My opinion is that they have too many advantages that effectivly give large lazy gangs too much over smaller ones.
Range, Jam Duration, Warp cloaked and very effective at shutting down a Single battleship with dual ECCM's for a good portion of a fight.
Too many people run around thinking 'o its ok we have a falcon'.
Its my belief that a target should only be jammed by a single jamming module. Thus giving the Falcon a more specific role on fleet and less of one in solo/small combat. A sensor booster can basically give back a ship a comfortable lock range, as with a single ECCM should be enough to protect a pilot from being jammed so easily.
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barvo
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:05:00 -
[86]
Edited by: barvo on 29/12/2008 13:06:38
*sigh*
Let's just whinewhinewhinewhineOMFGWHINE, instead of coming with a reasoned argument. Let me try one for you. I'm going to preface this by stating my position: Falcons are a specialised ship and are excellent at their role, but I agree that they are out of line with their counterparts.
Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons.
Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km
Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km
Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km
Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km
You'll notice the falcon is the only force recon that gets both ewar bonuses directed at the same item. That's part of the problem; whereas Arazu pilots will (for example) fit points as well as remote sensor damps, making use of the ability to hold people at extended range as well as damping bs's out of fights, falcon pilots can use all mids (or more likely all minus one for mwd) as ECM slots. Also, the falcon seems to be able to lock a long way past all the other recons, without adding any sensor boosters or signal amps.
Now, the falcon is a specialised ship, more so than the other recons; it only has one purpose and one way of affecting the battle - ECM. I'm not sure any purpose would be served by splitting up the bonuses - I'm not sure it would make sense anyway as there's nothing else in the 'Ewar' arsenal that isn't already covered in another race's force recon. My proposal to deal with the issue of falcons ruining everyone's day is twofold.
* Firstly, reduce the targetting range of the falcon to 110k after skills, so that in order to use it past 150km you would need 1 sensor booster and towards 200km you'd need two sensor boosters. This reduces the number of ecm slots (or sig dist amp slots) that the falcon pilot can utilise from extreme range, without compromising the effectiveness when it gets a jam off. It should have the ultimate effect of reducing the number of ships a single falcon can knock out of the fight at range closer to that of the other force recons.
* Secondly, a 10% improvement to ECCM effectiveness would go a long way. My preference would be to do this with a skillbook, 2% improvement to (each) ECCM module per level. No amount of ECCM should ever make you completely immune to jamming. The whole foundation of ECM in the game is based around chance. I don't support the whole warp core stabs vs. warp disrupt points analogy, because then what's the point of a specialised ECM ship, if people can totally counteract it? CCP would have to then invent the ECM equivalent of dictor and hictor bubbles, and everyone would just cry all over again, only slightly louder this time as the player base increases in size.
FOF missiles, on the other hand, do not need a buff. The only boost required for these is to people's memory, so that they actually remember to stick some in their hold before they find themselves on the field, jammed to hell ;)
In the meantime, ECCM *does* still increase your chances of avioding a jam, drones *do* still go after stuff that engages you while you're jammed, and FoF missiles *do* still shoot the nearest target while you can't lock anything. Oh, RSD's *do* still damp the range of falcons if you have capable pilots to get you in range, target painters *do* still light them up like guy fawkes on bonfire night for your one non-jammed BS to alpha them into next week, and when all is said and done, even if a velator locks the falcon, it can no longer cloak. So even though they are overpowered, the sky actually isn't going to fall.
TL,DR: Yes i think the falcon is overpowered, not by that much given it's a specialised ship, nerf its targetting range a bit and introduce a skill to improve ECCM effectiveness. Then all those who fail to fit countermeasures can go diaf as far as I'm concerned :D
edit - Failed at clarity.
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Akiba Penrose
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:19:00 -
[87]
Falcons is overpowered.
They should atleast have their range adjusted.
In general i think ECM in its current form is a huge mistake from CCP. However sensor strength is used to balance ships (specially mauraders) and also mixed with probing. So i dont see an easy way out of this one.
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Sean Faust
Gallente
Point of No Return
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:32:00 -
[88]
IMO theres nothing wrong with falcons. The problem with falcons isnt the ship itself, its in falcon alts. IMO if CCP simply changes the game code so that it won't allow people to run 2 clients at the same time it'll largely "fix" the falcon problem. The ship itself is fine (although maybe could stand to have its ECM strength bonus dropped down to pre-boost, so that its less than the Rook), the problem just comes from all the "solo" pvpers with falcon alts. Take for example this guy who use to run into our low sec system.
He flew a geddon and would hug the gate back into high sec. His mid slot layout consisted of a web, a cap booster, and a point, so no propulsion mod of any kind. He was alone save for a falcon alt he would decloak if things got too rough for just his geddon to handle. Things like that are what breaks the ship (and the game IMO).
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Sean Faust
Gallente
Point of No Return
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:35:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Kessiaan
Edited by: Kessiaan on 29/12/2008 02:16:09
Every MMO I've ever played has at least one form of CC that's really obnoxiously annoying. In Eve, this takes the form of ECM.
This.
And there's always one class that's completely built around the overpowered CC mechanic, and you can't "fix/balance" the CC without completely nerfing that class to utter uselessness.
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:42:00 -
[90]
I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!
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Ikonz
Coristati
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:42:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48
lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:45:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Hysteresis
I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!
Hey, I once salvaged a whole site and didn't get any salvage from it. Bad luck.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:48:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Hysteresis on 29/12/2008 13:50:48
Originally by: Colonel Xaven
Originally by: Hysteresis
I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!
Hey, I once salvaged a whole site and didn't get any salvage from it. Bad luck.
"Once" not "Every time", that's the key.
Edit: Also, I'm sure you were using a ship that had 3x salvage rigs and salvaging to 5...
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:54:00 -
[94]
Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 13:57:23
Originally by: Hysteresis
I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!
The only link i have seen that was anything like that was a carrier that had nearly 600 str, the person posting it "claimed" he was "perma" jammed but all he showed was a screen shot. When challenged to make a fraps of the event to prove he was "perma jammed" instead of just being a liar who waited til he was jammed for a single cycle and took a screenie he went very quiet and the thread died.
So 1300 sig str + perma jam fraps pls...or in eve speak...proof or stfu.
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BiggestT
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Hysteresis
Edited by: Hysteresis on 29/12/2008 13:50:48
Originally by: Colonel Xaven
Originally by: Hysteresis
I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!
Hey, I once salvaged a whole site and didn't get any salvage from it. Bad luck.
"Once" not "Every time", that's the key.
Edit: Also, I'm sure you were using a ship that had 3x salvage rigs and salvaging to 5...
Then those bs pilots were bloody unlucky, probly coupled with the falcon having all racial ecm'd denoted to those bs's + 2 strength rigs and 3 sda's.
Sure it may get a few jams in, but it would NOT perma-jam them. Hell even getting 5 cycles in a row would be like winning the lottery. And I highly doubt they had a sensor stregth of 1300 (dont think its possible as eccm stack).
Only non-falcon pilots use the word "perma-jam" as it is a paradox for anyhting but a frigate (even cycles on cruisers will miss more often than youd think).
EVE history
t2 precisions |
baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:58:00 -
[96]
Point one.
You lot who are screaming nerf falcons are having trouble with them yet you will not adapt your fittings because it is not worth sacrificing one or two mid slots?
So which is it? Are falcons powerfull and require you to fit to counter them or are they weak and are not worth fitting counters? They cannot be both now can they?
Point two.
They have a long range. Now on EFT it makes the falcon look awsomely powerfull, but (and this is a rather big but here), the falcon will rarely get to use this advantage in a roaming gang or when warping with a fleet to attack. Mostly you will see falcons warping with everything else when roaming so its massive range does not come into play. The only time you can garentee to get a falcon at its massive 250km range is when they are camping something. Although even then most will be at 200km or less.
Point 3.
Ask yourselves this. Why is it that my little stealth bomber can beat falcons in almost perfect safety while your entire fleet is crippled by them? Does this mean that you will be calling nerf on my bomber because it can rip apart a ship that you consider overpowered?
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 13:59:00 -
[97]
I fly Falcons now and then. I have very good ECM skills (yeah, I skilled for it a long time instead of tank / dps) and I tell you what:
As soon as I decloak, I'm getting primaried and I'm unable to lock all those targets that fast plus it is impossible to jam all of them instantly. So I got hit once and twice (nerf lasers, rails) and with a bit luck I haven't any hostile dictor near me so I can warp out.
I say: Boost scan resolution on Falcons! 
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:08:00 -
[98]
Originally by: BiggestT
Only non-falcon pilots use the word "perma-jam" as it is a paradox for anyhting but a frigate (even cycles on cruisers will miss more often than youd think)./quote]
Going to disagree with you right there. If you can't constantly jam out a cruiser your skills need training.
My problem with the falcon isn't that it has rediculously great ecm abilities, after all that's what the ship is for. What I dislike the ability to have ECM + Cloaked Warp + 200 km Range.
I think cloaked warp and range need to be revisited.
And yes, if you get jammed every cycle it's perma-jammed as for the whole fight you stayed jammed.
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Gaia Thorn
Villains
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:09:00 -
[99]
Originally by: barvo
Edited by: barvo on 29/12/2008 13:06:38
*sigh*
Let's just whinewhinewhinewhineOMFGWHINE, instead of coming with a reasoned argument. Let me try one for you. I'm going to preface this by stating my position: Falcons are a specialised ship and are excellent at their role, but I agree that they are out of line with their counterparts.
Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons.
Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km
Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km
Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km
Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km
Now if u start spouting numbers please do so correctly.
Arazu's Effective range aint even near 140km thats including falloff which lowers the effect of the dampner.
And a dampner from a arazu at 140km gives me a targeting range decrease of almost nothing.
When with half assed skills i have a optimal of 181km in the falcon and then some falloff on that.
And even if i was dampend at optimal with maxed out pilot with kickass skills and no sensor booster i still atleast have a chance to fight back.
And that arazu would be in range for a semi good tackler in a cruiser with mwd .
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:20:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Merdaneth
2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons
This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. [...]
While I agree with the rest of your points, this part isn't really true. Speed had many other counters as well and that's pretty much common knowledge and not far-fetched:
I'm not saying speed didn't have other counters, I'm saying the best counter to speed was more speed. More speed not only allowed you to counter speedy ships, it helped you to dictate the fight against all 'slow' ships. MWDs were being fitted on over 95% of the ships and nearly anything without an MWD for PvP use would be laughed at. You needed MWD because all the hostiles were fitting them.
The most effective ship to counter a hostile Falcon is currently a friendly Falcon. If you can think of any other ship that works better against a hostile Falcon than a friendly Falcon (and also is at least as useful as a friendly Falcon to a gang when no hostile Falcon is around), please do tell.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:30:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Your argument vs. ECM is that it's inconvenient to fit something that significantly reduces its effectiveness? The rest of your comments might be true if there wasn't a counter, but there is and you refuse to use it.
If the cost of fitting against ECM is high, if the effect of being immune to ECM still not garantueed, and if actually encountering ECM is not garantueed, yes, then the counter sucks. I have had Armageddons fit with multiple ECCM being dead in the water against a Falcon. There are only so many midslots to go about before you turn your ship into a vessel fit for little else but not being jammed.
Originally by: Merdaneth
You use cookie cutter ship setups and excpect to be able to handle every situation you encounter - that to me ruins the immersive quality of the gameplay, and doesn't fit within the rock-paper-scissor game design.
You are making more wrong assumptions. I'm in fact well known for innovative fittings, rarely use cookie-cutter setup. Please stay on topic and attack the arguments, not the person writing them.
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I don't even know what to say to this... I'm assuming you don't fit resistances based upon what ships you might enounter as well?
No, it means if that nearly nobody fits for specific resistances, because they might never know what they will encounter.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:37:00 -
[102]
Originally by: baltec1
Point one.
You lot who are screaming nerf falcons are having trouble with them yet you will not adapt your fittings because it is not worth sacrificing one or two mid slots?
So which is it? Are falcons powerfull and require you to fit to counter them or are they weak and are not worth fitting counters? They cannot be both now can they?
So, why are you not fitting a rack of smartbombs to counter drones? Yes, because the cost is generally too high, no point in turning a ship into an anti-drone ship and using its general utility. The best counter against a Falcon is another Falcon. Better have one pilot flying a counter-Falcon, than a lot of pilots spending precious midslots to fit ECCM.
I would adapt my fittings if it was an effective counter. Then again, I often fly interceptors, and yes, I could put two ECCM in my Crusader's midslots, but it won't protect it, and will make it useless in its function.
Originally by: baltec1
Ask yourselves this. Why is it that my little stealth bomber can beat falcons in almost perfect safety while your entire fleet is crippled by them? Does this mean that you will be calling nerf on my bomber because it can rip apart a ship that you consider overpowered?
Quite academic question. Stealth bombers have limited utility, and even more so against Falcons. You would be more useful as an anti-Falcon platform and gang benefit in a Falcon yourself. Besides the fact that one Stealth Bomber needs a set of very specific circumstances to beat a Falcon.
Hell, I've made Falcons run in my Crusader. That's not due to the power of the Crusader, but due to my piloting skill. And I make your stealth bombers run too. But even I recognize imbalance when I see it.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:38:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Ikonz
Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48
lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming.
Please come up with arguments, and not the generalizations. They add nothing to the discussion. It fits in right with adapt or die, learn to play etc. No content at all. Either support your opinion with arguments or don't bother posting.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:44:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Ikonz
Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48
lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming.
Please come up with arguments, and not the generalizations. They add nothing to the discussion. It fits in right with adapt or die, learn to play etc. No content at all. Either support your opinion with arguments or don't bother posting.
Does that apply to the "wwaaaa PERMA-jammed with 7 billion sig str" kinda comment threads like these get filled with?.
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:49:00 -
[105]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Ikonz
Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48
lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming.
Please come up with arguments, and not the generalizations. They add nothing to the discussion. It fits in right with adapt or die, learn to play etc. No content at all. Either support your opinion with arguments or don't bother posting.
Does that apply to the "wwaaaa PERMA-jammed with 7 billion sig str" kinda comment threads like these get filled with?.
Actually, I found the fraps: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=843770
There is the proof so now you can STFU (also, I didn't say 7 billion str, I said a high number in the hundreds)
Point, Game, Match, thanks!
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:53:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Hysteresis
It's near the end of the vid FYI.
And if it shows a 1300 sig str "perma jam" you may keep posting...
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Javelin6
Minmatar
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.29 14:58:00 -
[107]
Originally by: barvo
....
Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons.
Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km
Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km
Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km
Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km
You'll notice the falcon is the only force recon that gets both ewar bonuses directed at the same item. That's part of the problem; whereas Arazu pilots will (for example) fit points as well as remote sensor damps, making use of the ability to hold people at extended range as well as damping bs's out of fights, falcon pilots can use all mids (or more likely all minus one for mwd) as ECM slots. Also, the falcon seems to be able to lock a long way past all the other recons, without adding any sensor boosters or signal amps.
Now, the falcon is a specialised ship, more so than the other recons; it only has one purpose and one way of affecting the battle - ECM. I'm not sure any purpose would be served by splitting up the bonuses - I'm not sure it would make sense anyway as there's nothing else in the 'Ewar' arsenal that isn't already covered in another race's force recon. My proposal to deal with the issue of falcons ruining everyone's day is twofold.
* Firstly, reduce the targetting range of the falcon to 110k after skills, so that in order to use it past 150km you would need 1 sensor booster and towards 200km you'd need two sensor boosters. This reduces the number of ecm slots (or sig dist amp slots) that the falcon pilot can utilise from extreme range, without compromising the effectiveness when it gets a jam off. It should have the ultimate effect of reducing the number of ships a single falcon can knock out of the fight at range closer to that of the other force recons.
* Secondly, a 10% improvement to ECCM effectiveness would go a long way. My preference would be to do this with a skillbook, 2% improvement to (each) ECCM module per level. No amount of ECCM should ever make you completely immune to jamming. The whole foundation of ECM in the game is based around chance. I don't support the whole warp core stabs vs. warp disrupt points analogy, because then what's the point of a specialised ECM ship, if people can totally counteract it? CCP would have to then invent the ECM equivalent of dictor and hictor bubbles, and everyone would just cry all over again, only slightly louder this time as the player base increases in size.
FOF missiles, on the other hand, do not need a buff. The only boost required for these is to people's memory, so that they actually remember to stick some in their hold before they find themselves on the field, jammed to hell ;)
In the meantime, ECCM *does* still increase your chances of avioding a jam, drones *do* still go after stuff that engages you while you're jammed, and FoF missiles *do* still shoot the nearest target while you can't lock anything. Oh, RSD's *do* still damp the range of falcons if you have capable pilots to get you in range, target painters *do* still light them up like guy fawkes on bonfire night for your one non-jammed BS to alpha them into next week, and when all is said and done, even if a velator locks the falcon, it can no longer cloak. ...
As much I as would not like to see a Falcon change I agree with everything this guy said.
I would however, like to see a sort of FOF missile specifically for use against ECM (all forms). A heavy class missile that didn't require target lock and chased down the nearest ECM projector. Be it TD, RSD, Jammer, ect. A kind of HARM weapon for New Eden This way the ship effectively taken out of the fight can still contribute to the battle (if properly equipped), and not feel helpless and therefore not frustrated.
But if CCP did nothing at all, I would be fine with that too. 
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:00:00 -
[108]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hysteresis
It's near the end of the vid FYI.
And if it shows a 1300 sig str "perma jam" you may keep posting...
Right... again I said in the hundreds with an arbitrary value. However since you outright called me a liar then asked for proof and said it isn't possible, I would say that your 'facts' are made up.
Your proof or stfu: Show me a fraps where the falcon pilot with good skills and setup DOESN'T jam a regular cruiser (since you pointed out that you can't keep them jammed).
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:05:00 -
[109]
Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 15:08:18
Originally by: Hysteresis
Right... again I said in the hundreds with an arbitrary value.
REALLY?.
Originally by: Hysteresis
if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem!
PS: Asking for proof of a claim is not calling you a liar.
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:10:00 -
[110]
At 11:05, 3x ECCM II's, str of 115 getting jammed the whole time.
Thoughts?
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:12:00 -
[111]
Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 15:12:35
Originally by: Hysteresis
At 11:05, 3x ECCM II's, str of 115 getting jammed the whole time.
Thoughts?
Well first id say your missing at least a zero from your original emo fueled claims of 1300 str......and it falls rather short of your other claims of "hundreds (or higher)" str..
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Caoim Fearghul
Caldari
Fearghul Corp
The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:13:00 -
[112]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hysteresis
At 11:05, 3x ECCM II's, str of 115 getting jammed the whole time.
Thoughts?
Well first id say your missing at least a zero from your original emo fueled claims of 1300 str......
It's only an entire order of magnitude out after all...
Prodesse Non Nocere
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:17:00 -
[113]
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. Focus on the facts I gave not the speculation I already said was made up.
Here are teh facts, now discuss having 115 str and getting perma-jammed.
Exactly what I thought, I have proof and all you can do is say "let's forget the fact and make fun of random figures"
Come on guys, stick to the topic.
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baltec1
R.U.S.T.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:19:00 -
[114]
Edited by: baltec1 on 29/12/2008 15:20:40
Originally by: Merdaneth
So, why are you not fitting a rack of smartbombs to counter drones? Yes, because the cost is generally too high, no point in turning a ship into an anti-drone ship and using its general utility. The best counter against a Falcon is another Falcon. Better have one pilot flying a counter-Falcon, than a lot of pilots spending precious midslots to fit ECCM.
I would adapt my fittings if it was an effective counter. Then again, I often fly interceptors, and yes, I could put two ECCM in my Crusader's midslots, but it won't protect it, and will make it useless in its function.
My bomber just avoids them, taking out drones is not my job in a fight nore is my ship built for it. My job is advanced scout, alpha striking soft irritating targets and disrupting the econimics/supplies of the enemy.
Quote:
Quite academic question. Stealth bombers have limited utility, and even more so against Falcons. You would be more useful as an anti-Falcon platform and gang benefit in a Falcon yourself. Besides the fact that one Stealth Bomber needs a set of very specific circumstances to beat a Falcon.
Hell, I've made Falcons run in my Crusader. That's not due to the power of the Crusader, but due to my piloting skill. And I make your stealth bombers run too. But even I recognize imbalance when I see it.
Unlike your sader my bomber will not get jammed due to the tactics I use. Also unlike your sader I can wipe out the falcon in 3-4 vollies and force it to lose lock on all of its targets. As for me in a falcon, I would rather bring a bomber every time because not only can it wipe the deck with falcons but it does it for much less isk.
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Caoim Fearghul
Caldari
Fearghul Corp
The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:20:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Hysteresis
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. Focus on the facts I gave not the speculation I already said was made up.
Here are teh facts, now discuss having 115 str and getting perma-jammed.
Exactly what I thought, I have proof and all you can do is say "let's forget the fact and make fun of random figures"
Come on guys, stick to the topic.
ECM is random chance based. Mostly because people whined to get it nerfed when it was pure point based...do you know how much use a single data point is?
Does, for example, the term statistical fluke mean anything to you?
Prodesse Non Nocere
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:22:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Hysteresis
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300.
I am still waiting for the DL to finish before i comment, as your reliability, honesty and accuracy is rather questionable due to recent posts tbh.
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:23:00 -
[117]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hysteresis
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300.
I am still waiting for the DL to finish before i comment, as your reliability, honesty and accuracy is rather questionable due to recent posts tbh.
Ditto to you, as saying that a cruiser can't be jammed all the time
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:24:00 -
[118]
Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 15:26:35
Originally by: Hysteresis
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hysteresis
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300.
I am still waiting for the DL to finish before i comment, as your reliability, honesty and accuracy is rather questionable due to recent posts tbh.
Ditto to you, as saying that a cruiser can't be jammed all the time
Did i, are you sure that was me and not somebody else or are you making things up again?.
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:34:00 -
[119]
Originally by: barvo
Let's just whinewhinewhinewhineOMFGWHINE, instead of coming with a reasoned argument. Let me try one for you. I'm going to preface this by stating my position: Falcons are a specialised ship and are excellent at their role, but I agree that they are out of line with their counterparts.
Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons.
Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km
Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km
Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km
Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km
Falcon - All Skills at V
Lock Range 150km
ECM Optimal 162km (Racial ECM TII)
ECM Falloff 41km
Rapier - All Skills at V
Lock Range 125km
Target Painter Optimal 45km
Target Painter Falloff 90km
Web Range 40km
You could argue that the rapier is a weaker ship and its bonusses dont compare to the falcons but the Rapier has 2 Viable EWAR bonusses Web and Target Painting. IIRC the rapier initially had a lower web range compared to the Huginn just like all recons did compared to their Combat brothers.
162km for ECM Optimal is kinda scary and again adds to the falcons perfection and maybe it could do with being dropped and the whole ECM ships given a more tiered aproach so that the scorp has the uber range and the falcon becomes more mid ranged.
the Web bonus has always been a bone of contention for me but as others will most likley point out a web that reaches out and touches someone at 100km might be a tad overpowered. FYI mine typically goes 60(ish)km
Personally i dont give a crap about the falcons additional 25km and recon ranges have their advantages for all of them.
Falcons have Twin bonusses to ECM which again adds to the falcons awesomness but what would you do to correct it ? Would you give Target painting to caldari to aid missiles etc then what would you give the rapier web strength and range ?
of all the ship classes in game the Recons (both types) are perfect.
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Cyrus Brown
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:37:00 -
[120]
Nerf Falcons.
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:48:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Hysteresis on 29/12/2008 15:49:44
Originally by: maralt
Maybe you would be a better pvper if you paid better attention to details.
Did I, at any point say anything about my pvp skills? How did you come to this conclusion? What is it about my pvp skills that lack?
That's what I thought - you have no idea how good or bad I am, you just wanted to make a personal attack because you wanted your view to look better. Maybe you should heed you own advice
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:51:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Merdaneth
If the cost of fitting against ECM is high, if the effect of being immune to ECM still not garantueed, and if actually encountering ECM is not garantueed, yes, then the counter sucks. I have had Armageddons fit with multiple ECCM being dead in the water against a Falcon. There are only so many midslots to go about before you turn your ship into a vessel fit for little else but not being jammed.
Fitting WCS are high, you're not immune to being scrammed, and you WILL encounter hictors...
So your point is that you want something that grants total immunity, because
a) You can't be arsed to fit something that will make you 3x more resistant.
b) Can't stand the thought that your Armageddon (which I love as well) might have to lose a couple HS3 in place of some backup array sensors.
c) Won't switch to Apoc which turns Falcon's into Barn-Swallows.
Originally by: Merdaneth
You are making more wrong assumptions. I'm in fact well known for innovative fittings, rarely use cookie-cutter setup. Please stay on topic and attack the arguments, not the person writing them.
I've seen all kinds of innovative fittings, and they usually just get laughed at on our killboard. Your issue is that you refuse to fit vs. ECM, you'll do everything but that and cry.
Originally by: Merdaneth
No, it means if that nearly nobody fits for specific resistances, because they might never know what they will encounter.
Oh bloody leave.. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If you don't have at least an idea of the ship types your enemies field, then you are an idiot when it comes to PVP.
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:54:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Hysteresis
Originally by: maralt
Maybe you would be a better pvper if you paid better attention to details.
Did I, at any point say anything about my pvp skills? How did you come to this conclusion? What is it about my pvp skills that lack?
That's what I thought - you have no idea how good or bad I am, you just wanted to make a personal attack because you wanted your view to look better. Maybe you should heed you own advice
Ok here is the thing pal, making attacks on my character after you have lied about details (1300 str lol) as well as having made accusations against me for making comments i did not actually make (cruiser perma jam) is a weak defense at best.
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Gaia Thorn
Villains
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:55:00 -
[124]
Tbh i dont want to be immune i want a fighting chance which atm i dont when a falcon enters the grid.
You know that maybe you will be lucky him missing a jam cycle and get a 20 second atttack windows with todays super tanks isnt gonna even come near to break anyone
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 15:58:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Hysteresis
I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. Focus on the facts I gave not the speculation I already said was made up.
Here are teh facts, now discuss having 115 str and getting perma-jammed.
Exactly what I thought, I have proof and all you can do is say "let's forget the fact and make fun of random figures"
Come on guys, stick to the topic.
Ok, random figures:
A Raven with 3 ECCM mods = gravimetric sensor strength of 122.
A Spatial Destabilizer II on a Falcon for me = 5.1193 Gravimetric strength.
Now let's do the maths. Formula inside optimal ECM range.
5.1193 / 122 * 100 = 4.196 % chance of being jammed (means 4 hits in 100 attempts).
4% chance.
An Apoc with 1 ECCM (Radar fyi) has 39,2 str. I have 5.1193 with racial t2 jammer.
5.1193/39.2 * 100 = 13,06 % chance.
An Apoc with ECCM against a Falcon at 200km (optimal 151.2):
(5.1193/39.2) * 100 * (37.8*2 - (200-151.2))/37.8*2)) = 4.68% chance.
Oh well, no wonder that all people on a gang are always perma-jammed by 1 falcon.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:04:00 -
[126]
Originally by: maralt
Ok here is the thing pal, making attacks on my character after you have lied about details (1300 str lol) as well as having made accusations against me for making comments i did not actually make (cruiser perma jam) is a weak defense at best.
I already said I made up the 1300 str, actually I said "some random number" when infact this was rpeceded by in the hundreds which 115 is... so the point is moot as I dismissed myself in the post as saying it was random and not actually useful.
As for the cruisers, that was an honest mistake as reading the posts and flipping through windows I had the wrong person on my mental clipboard.
I still ask, from the post above about your inside knowledge on my pvp skills that let's you asess them in the way that you did. You're just mad because you made a post with an accusation about my pvp skills that isn't related and you got caught looking stupid. Oh well **** happens, you just can't admit to that fact.
So quit with the personal attacks and stick to the facts. Again I show a fraps of 3x ECCM II's and the guy still stays jammed the whole time. Obviously adding 3 of these modules is not a viable defense yet the post above me says it is...
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:36:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/12/2008 16:44:27
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/12/2008 16:40:28
Originally by: maralt
Xaven, with good ecm skills you should be around 9 not 5.1, also on the falcon where are your signal distortion amplifiers? I mean if you are going to say that a raven has 3 eccm's on it AT LEAST give a NORMAL fit for a falcon. It's possible to get a strength of over 14... leading to over a 33% chance to jam. Since you can have up to 7 ECM's on a falcon... you could jam with over a 33% (1 in 3 chance) on each module... since you have 7... I would suspect that you could jam AT LEAST 2 BS's...
It should be in the neighborhood of 13-14 at a skilled pure ECM fit - that's not how everyone fits them. Some people actually like their Falcon to be survivable.
Also, he was stating that the Raven has 122 Sensory strength with 3 ECCMs.
14/122 = .11475 or 11.475% chance of being jammed per jammer inside optimal. Two successful jams in a row being .11475 * .11475 = .0131 or 1.31%.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:38:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Colonel Xaven on 29/12/2008 16:46:10
Edited by: Colonel Xaven on 29/12/2008 16:39:18
Yeah I can't get in game now so I used EFT figures.
/edit: Which was horribly wrong. But you can do the maths each for yourselves.
For everyone who wants to know a bit more about ECM besides the "Perma-jammed" phrases, read that guide (including formulas 'n stuff).
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:58:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
It should be in the neighborhood of 13-14 at a skilled pure ECM fit - that's not how everyone fits them. Some people actually like their Falcon to be survivable.
Also, he was stating that the Raven has 122 Sensory strength with 3 ECCMs.
14/122 = .11475 or 11.475% chance of being jammed per jammer inside optimal. Two successful jams in a row being .11475 * .11475 = .0131 or 1.31%.
Falcons are survivable with that fit - it's hard to die when you jam out the other person...
Also the math is wrong it would still be 11.5% for the second jam, just not with the SAME module as you have... well... multiple ones. Falcon pilot with 1 ecm module isn't much of a falcon pilot.
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
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maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:02:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Hysteresis
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
Screw eccm, Burn Eden use damp fitted ravens to great effect against all types of gangs in eve, be they falcon heavy or not.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:08:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Hysteresis
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
It should be in the neighborhood of 13-14 at a skilled pure ECM fit - that's not how everyone fits them. Some people actually like their Falcon to be survivable.
Also, he was stating that the Raven has 122 Sensory strength with 3 ECCMs.
14/122 = .11475 or 11.475% chance of being jammed per jammer inside optimal. Two successful jams in a row being .11475 * .11475 = .0131 or 1.31%.
Falcons are survivable with that fit - it's hard to die when you jam out the other person...
Also the math is wrong it would still be 11.5% for the second jam, just not with the SAME module as you have... well... multiple ones. Falcon pilot with 1 ecm module isn't much of a falcon pilot.
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
The math is right... whether you use the same jammer or another jammer, each individual attempt is 11.5%, but two sucessful hits in a row is 1.31%. So, that would mean that for 2 jam cycles in a row you're looking to use at least 3 jammers to raise your odds up from 1.31% to a more reasonable 12% chance to jam in succession.
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Hysteresis
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:17:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/12/2008 17:10:47
Originally by: Hysteresis
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
It should be in the neighborhood of 13-14 at a skilled pure ECM fit - that's not how everyone fits them. Some people actually like their Falcon to be survivable.
Also, he was stating that the Raven has 122 Sensory strength with 3 ECCMs.
14/122 = .11475 or 11.475% chance of being jammed per jammer inside optimal. Two successful jams in a row being .11475 * .11475 = .0131 or 1.31%.
Falcons are survivable with that fit - it's hard to die when you jam out the other person...
Also the math is wrong it would still be 11.5% for the second jam, just not with the SAME module as you have... well... multiple ones. Falcon pilot with 1 ecm module isn't much of a falcon pilot.
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
The math is right... whether you use the same jammer or another jammer, each individual attempt is 11.5%, but two sucessful hits in a row is 1.31%. This means that you have a 98ish% fail rate to have 2 hits in a row either on 1 jammer, or by using 2.
The above is completely incorrect when it comes to multiple jamming sessions. If the above were true, a person could (by your math) only have a 1% chance to jam someone 4 times in a row with a 33% initial chance (I could make a fraps of me getting jammed 10 times in a row which would be a 0.00001531578985264449% chance of that happening following your incorrect math which is very IMPROBABLE)... You aren't taking into account multiple jammers. For a single jammer you are correct.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:24:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/12/2008 17:24:38
see above
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Wannabehero
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:27:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Hysteresis
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
[Raven, Anti-Falcon RR gang]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
[empty high slot]
Ionic Field Projector I
Ionic Field Projector I
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Warrior II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
--
Don't harsh my mellow |
maralt
Minmatar
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.12.29 17:28:00 -
[135]
Your both kinda correct but the fact is that ppl use a "infinite time frame" to work out the % of ability jammers get, that is why "perma jamming" is imposable against ships with certain sig str and also why jammers can be either highly effective or crap depending on sheer luck tbh.
A ship that gets jammed dies within the first 20 seconds of the fight could be considered "perma jammed" relative to its life span in the fight, while on the other side of the coin a falcon that misses a jam on a ship that then melts one of his buddies cos its not jammed makes the jam ship/falcon equally as useless as the first scenario falcon was useful.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.29 18:35:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Burning Horizon
ECM does need a nerf tbh
"adapt or die"
ECM as a mechanism is fine.
We have, we all trained a falcon alt with recon 5 in 4 months.
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[Video] The Neverending Story |
VoiceInTheDesert
Gallente
Diplomatic Disruption
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Posted - 2008.12.29 19:52:00 -
[137]
u'r
People get the apostrophe wrong on abbreviations now too :(
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.29 20:26:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Oh bloody leave.. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If you don't have at least an idea of the ship types your enemies field, then you are an idiot when it comes to PVP.
Once again I ask you stop with the personal attacks. You don't know me, and you don't know my PvP style. Concentrate on your arguments ok? You are not doing anyone any favors with this.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.29 20:36:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Oh bloody leave.. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. If you don't have at least an idea of the ship types your enemies field, then you are an idiot when it comes to PVP.
Once again I ask you stop with the personal attacks. You don't know me, and you don't know my PvP style. Concentrate on your arguments ok? You are not doing anyone any favors with this.
You seem to fly a lot of ceptors tbh, in fact almost exclusively looking at you losses.
Interceptors are quite susceptible to jamming so its understandable that you would have a dislike for them, although they are good for getting a position on sniper ships for more useful ships like drone boats or those with FOF/high sig str.
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Leeluvv
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.12.29 21:12:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Leeluvv on 29/12/2008 21:12:52
There are multiple ways to fit a falcon.
1. You can fit a falcon for maximum ECM strength (no tank, 3 SDAa and ECM str rigs).
2. You can fit a Falcon for maximum range (ECM range rigs)
3. You can fit a Falcon with a tank (LSE or 1600mm plates)
YOU CAN MIX THEM ABOUT BUT YOU CAN'T DO ALL 3 AT ONCE.
A Falcon may have 7 mids, but one will be a MWD and one will be a sensor booster if it is operating at max range or IT CANT EVEN TARGET YOU.
Generally, pilots fit a mix of the races ECM, only doubling up on one or two.
If you are moaning about being jammed from 200+ Km, then the Falcon does not have max jam strength, so you won't be perma jammed and it only has 5 ECMs, so they may only have 1 of your race fitted.
If you are moaning about being perma-jammed, then the Falcon is 150 Km away at the most and may have no tank at all, so just fly to it or shoot it with another ship.
If the Falcon has a tank and doesn't die getting shot, then it doesn't have a full fit of ECMs.
QUIT TREATING THE THREE BUILDS AS ONE AND LEARN HOW TO KILL THE DAMNED THINGS.
I have a Cerb fit with 73 sensor stregnth and 246 Km range. Guess what, it makes Falcons run away and because I have 5 launchers I can fire at 5 Falcons at once (most tend to run when they get shot at rather than waiting to get hit).
Nerf Cerbs as they remove 5 ships from 1 fight! SAME TWISTED LOGIC AS ASKING FOR FALCONS TO BE NERFED!
/end rant
Lee
==
Sig to follow |
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.12.29 22:57:00 -
[141]
Hey Lee, I know you speak the truth and that's why I don't like you, lol. See you in space  .
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2008.12.29 23:33:00 -
[142]
Woot 3 Falcon threads on the first page.
Fit ECCM guys....
or hang on I've got an idea - remove the scan res bonus from the sensor boost and add it to the ECCM so it now has a dual purpose - is this a large enough bone for all you ECM lovers?
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Zantrei Kordisin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.29 23:37:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Hysteresis
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
Hahahaha, wait, you are complaining that you have to fit maybe 2 modules to counter jamming? You are terrible at playing EVE. I'm serious, you are awful. By your logic, a ship should be able to prevent taking damage with a couple of slots.
Hahaha, terrible eve player.
_________________________________________________________
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:01:00 -
[144]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hysteresis
Also, please give me a raven setup that is survivable with 3x ECCM II's...
Screw eccm, Burn Eden use damp fitted ravens to great effect against all types of gangs in eve, be they falcon heavy or not.
Right, because you can damp out to 240km range? No one cares about made up stuff about leet burn eden.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] The Neverending Story |
Centra Spike
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:07:00 -
[145]
YOUR DENIAL OF MY VICTIMHOOD IS HURTING MY SELF-ESTEEM!
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Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:09:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Murina on 30/12/2008 16:10:23
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Right, because you can damp out to 240km range? No one cares about made up stuff about leet burn eden.
Go troll a amarr pulse fix thread clown.
Anybody (including BE who certainly do so) can make multiple BM's around a gate and close down or destroy falcons, your problem is that your preferred mode of combat is too either lazy or you are too stupid to do so.
"WAAAA falcons can warp to bookmarked points around a gate!!!!".....well so can you muppet so i suggest you chase them down and kill or run them off, instead of crying to ccp to move them closer for your inadequate gangs and tactics.
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Beltantis Torrence
Steel Soldier's
NEXUS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:16:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 30/12/2008 16:25:59
Almost everyone whining about the falcon is actually whining about ECM. Falcon is just the best ECM ship - if it got nerfed we'd all be flying rooks or scorpions or blackbirds instead. I personally think ECM is fine - it adds a significant dynamic to PVP. I do think, however, that cloaking should unjam anyone who is jammed.
One thing that'd be nice though is if the celestis, arazu/lachesis and keres had a much higher base targetting range. An increase in RSD range would also be nice - as stands you can set up a decent RSD keres but you're so crippled by your targetting range that the only use for that ship is as a poor man's interceptor.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:42:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Murina
Edited by: Murina on 30/12/2008 16:10:23
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Right, because you can damp out to 240km range? No one cares about made up stuff about leet burn eden.
Go troll a amarr pulse fix thread clown.
Anybody (including BE who certainly do so) can make multiple BM's around a gate and close down or destroy falcons, your problem is that your preferred mode of combat is too either lazy or you are too stupid to do so.
"WAAAA falcons can warp to bookmarked points around a gate!!!!".....well so can you muppet so i suggest you chase them down and kill or run them off, instead of crying to ccp to move them closer for your inadequate gangs and tactics.
Well it doesn't work like that for small gangs or solo. You know why? Because you cannot warp to that bookmark close to the falcon that is perma jamming you. You know why? Because you will be scrambled. We already know that fleets and larger gangs can deal with falcons. YOU go troll elsewhere mkay, kkthxbai.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] The Neverending Story |
Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.30 16:49:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Murina on 30/12/2008 16:50:22
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Well it doesn't work like that for small gangs or solo. You know why? Because you cannot warp to that bookmark close to the falcon that is perma jamming you. You know why? Because you will be scrambled. We already know that fleets and larger gangs can deal with falcons. YOU go troll elsewhere mkay, kkthxbai.
So you wanna nerf falcons cos:
When your solo and out numbered they help the guys your fighting beat you?.
If your outnumbered in small gang fighting they also help the ppl your fighting beat you?.
Ok i do not wanna hurt you feelings but you do not just deserve to win the fights you get into, and trying to nerf everything that does not allow your idea of "amarr biased combat styles" to beat everything you come across is rather obvious tbh.
Like i said go troll the amarr pulse fix threads for a while....
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.12.30 17:22:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/12/2008 17:24:11
Originally by: MacGrowler III
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Now do the math for a full rack of ECM.
No matter how many ECM modules you have you cannot have a 100% chance of jamming a ship. Mathematically speaking you cannot just add up 2 x 50% to equal 100% when it comes to chance calculations. It's a bit like calculating resists, no matter what modules you add you can't get to 100% EM resists on any (non dev) ships.
For example, You activate your first ECM module with a 50% chance of jamming and it fails, your second module still only has a 50% chance of jamming. If that fails, then guess what? Your third module will only have a 50% chance at jamming also. Eventually you can reduce the odds, but you can NEVER 100% guarantee a jam.
This is true but you can still add the probability of an event occurring with multiple chances. Your post makes it sound like you never have better than a 50% chance of getting a jam which is wrong.
To add probabilities you need to turn it around. So, if you have a 5% chance of "X" occurring then you have a 95% chance of it not occurring. If you press your 5% button 3x you do:
.95 * .95 * .95 = 0.857.
100 - 85.7 = 14.3% (chance of "X" occurring when you press your 5% button three times)
So let's do it three times with a 50% button:
.5 * .5 * .5 = 0.125
100 - 12.5 = 87.5% (chance of a jam occurring with three 50% shots)
Just saying so people here can figure probabilities when assessing these things.
--------------------------------------------------
"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.12.30 17:29:00 -
[151]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
u'r
People get the apostrophe wrong on abbreviations now too :(
You mean the name of the new fifth race in EVE isn't the U'r? 
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2008.12.31 14:21:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Murina
So you wanna nerf falcons because:
When you're solo and out numbered they help the guys you're fighting beat you?.
If you're outnumbered in small gang fighting they also help the ppl your fighting beat you?.
A larger or equally sized gang that has ewar and is better setup should beat a lesser setup one without ewar pal.
Ok i do not wanna hurt you feelings but you do not just deserve to win the fights you get into, and trying to nerf everything that does not allow your idea of "amarr biased combat styles" to beat everything you come across is rather obvious tbh.
Like i said go troll the amarr pulse fix threads for a while....
Fixed.
And you're making zero sense. You're just flaming now or simply don't have a logic department in your head.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] The Neverending Story |
Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.31 14:28:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
All i have left are spelling corrections and weak ad hominem attacks
Yore gang style and tactics need working on tbh, and trying to lower the bar and remove things you do not have the skill or willingness to deal with is pathetic.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.31 14:33:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/12/2008 14:34:00
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 31/12/2008 14:33:31
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
All i have left are spelling corrections and weak ad hominem attacks
Yore gang style and tactics need working on tbh, and trying to lower the bar and remove things you do not have the skill or willingness to deal with is pathetic.
Sorry, but I find it odd that a person that can type perfect english and at the same time ignore the fact that "your" and "you are" are not the same word.
And actually YOU are the one making ad hominem attacks here. Every post you have made lately has one in it.
You're also using the troll trick of accusing others of doing what you are so they can't turn the table because you said it first. Tricks like that and words like ad hominem will not save you from the humilation created by your crummy posts.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] The Neverending Story |
Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.12.31 14:39:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
0 on topic content as per usual
Add something to the discussion other than spelling corrections and absurd accusations or go away.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2008.12.31 14:43:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Murina
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
0 on topic content as per usual
Add something to the discussion other than spelling corrections and absurd accusations or go away.
I'll quote myself:
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You're also using the troll trick of accusing others of doing what you are so they can't turn the table because you said it first. Tricks like that and words like ad hominem will not save you from the humilation created by your crummy posts.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] The Neverending Story |
Murina
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.12.31 14:45:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Murina
Add something to the discussion other than spelling corrections and absurd accusations or go away.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
i fail and cannot so il attack you instead.
.....................
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Opertone
Caldari
SIEGE.
The Border Patrol
|
Posted - 2008.12.31 15:10:00 -
[158]
kitsune is crap of the ****
it is supposed to MWD to 40 KM range! in that range anything can send drones after it...
kitsune needs at least 80 km lock range, who ever gave it the locking range of minimatar industrial?
boost kitsune, cause MWD and 40 KM lock range is a fail
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