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Ikonz Coristati	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:42:00 - [91] Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48 lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:45:00 - [92] Originally by: Hysteresis I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem! Hey, I once salvaged a whole site and didn't get any salvage from it. Bad luck. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:48:00 - [93] Edited by: Hysteresis on 29/12/2008 13:50:48 Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: Hysteresis I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem! Hey, I once salvaged a whole site and didn't get any salvage from it. Bad luck. "Once" not "Every time", that's the key. Edit: Also, I'm sure you were using a ship that had 3x salvage rigs and salvaging to 5...
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:54:00 - [94] Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 13:57:23 Originally by: Hysteresis I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem! The only link i have seen that was anything like that was a carrier that had nearly 600 str, the person posting it "claimed" he was "perma" jammed but all he showed was a screen shot. When challenged to make a fraps of the event to prove he was "perma jammed" instead of just being a liar who waited til he was jammed for a single cycle and took a screenie he went very quiet and the thread died. So 1300 sig str + perma jam fraps pls...or in eve speak...proof or stfu.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:57:00 - [95] Originally by: Hysteresis Edited by: Hysteresis on 29/12/2008 13:50:48 Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: Hysteresis I can't remember the name or link of the PVP video made (can someone help me out trying to find it), but in the video he setup a ship (apoc or geddon I believe) with all ECCM and backup sensors that gave hima crazy sensor strength in the hundreds (or higher) and was perma jammed by a falcon... if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem! Hey, I once salvaged a whole site and didn't get any salvage from it. Bad luck. "Once" not "Every time", that's the key. Edit: Also, I'm sure you were using a ship that had 3x salvage rigs and salvaging to 5... Then those bs pilots were bloody unlucky, probly coupled with the falcon having all racial ecm'd denoted to those bs's + 2 strength rigs and 3 sda's. Sure it may get a few jams in, but it would NOT perma-jam them. Hell even getting 5 cycles in a row would be like winning the lottery. And I highly doubt they had a sensor stregth of 1300 (dont think its possible as eccm stack). Only non-falcon pilots use the word "perma-jam" as it is a paradox for anyhting but a frigate (even cycles on cruisers will miss more often than youd think). EVE history t2 precisions
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:58:00 - [96] Point one. You lot who are screaming nerf falcons are having trouble with them yet you will not adapt your fittings because it is not worth sacrificing one or two mid slots? So which is it? Are falcons powerfull and require you to fit to counter them or are they weak and are not worth fitting counters? They cannot be both now can they? Point two. They have a long range. Now on EFT it makes the falcon look awsomely powerfull, but (and this is a rather big but here), the falcon will rarely get to use this advantage in a roaming gang or when warping with a fleet to attack. Mostly you will see falcons warping with everything else when roaming so its massive range does not come into play. The only time you can garentee to get a falcon at its massive 250km range is when they are camping something. Although even then most will be at 200km or less. Point 3. Ask yourselves this. Why is it that my little stealth bomber can beat falcons in almost perfect safety while your entire fleet is crippled by them? Does this mean that you will be calling nerf on my bomber because it can rip apart a ship that you consider overpowered?
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:59:00 - [97] I fly Falcons now and then. I have very good ECM skills (yeah, I skilled for it a long time instead of tank / dps) and I tell you what: As soon as I decloak, I'm getting primaried and I'm unable to lock all those targets that fast plus it is impossible to jam all of them instantly. So I got hit once and twice (nerf lasers, rails) and with a bit luck I haven't any hostile dictor near me so I can warp out. I say: Boost scan resolution on Falcons! Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:08:00 - [98] Originally by: BiggestT Only non-falcon pilots use the word "perma-jam" as it is a paradox for anyhting but a frigate (even cycles on cruisers will miss more often than youd think)./quote] Going to disagree with you right there. If you can't constantly jam out a cruiser your skills need training. My problem with the falcon isn't that it has rediculously great ecm abilities, after all that's what the ship is for. What I dislike the ability to have ECM + Cloaked Warp + 200 km Range. I think cloaked warp and range need to be revisited. And yes, if you get jammed every cycle it's perma-jammed as for the whole fight you stayed jammed.
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:09:00 - [99] Originally by: barvo Edited by: barvo on 29/12/2008 13:06:38 sigh Let's just whinewhinewhinewhineOMFGWHINE, instead of coming with a reasoned argument. Let me try one for you. I'm going to preface this by stating my position: Falcons are a specialised ship and are excellent at their role, but I agree that they are out of line with their counterparts. Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons. Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km Now if u start spouting numbers please do so correctly. Arazu's Effective range aint even near 140km thats including falloff which lowers the effect of the dampner. And a dampner from a arazu at 140km gives me a targeting range decrease of almost nothing. When with half assed skills i have a optimal of 181km in the falcon and then some falloff on that. And even if i was dampend at optimal with maxed out pilot with kickass skills and no sensor booster i still atleast have a chance to fight back. And that arazu would be in range for a semi good tackler in a cruiser with mwd .
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:20:00 - [100] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Merdaneth 2. Falcons are best countered with Falcons This is the worst problem. The same issue existed with the speed problem: the best answer to counter speed was getting more speed yourself. [...] While I agree with the rest of your points, this part isn't really true. Speed had many other counters as well and that's pretty much common knowledge and not far-fetched: I'm not saying speed didn't have other counters, I'm saying the best counter to speed was more speed. More speed not only allowed you to counter speedy ships, it helped you to dictate the fight against all 'slow' ships. MWDs were being fitted on over 95% of the ships and nearly anything without an MWD for PvP use would be laughed at. You needed MWD because all the hostiles were fitting them. The most effective ship to counter a hostile Falcon is currently a friendly Falcon. If you can think of any other ship that works better against a hostile Falcon than a friendly Falcon (and also is at least as useful as a friendly Falcon to a gang when no hostile Falcon is around), please do tell. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery

Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:30:00 - [101] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Your argument vs. ECM is that it's inconvenient to fit something that significantly reduces its effectiveness? The rest of your comments might be true if there wasn't a counter, but there is and you refuse to use it. If the cost of fitting against ECM is high, if the effect of being immune to ECM still not garantueed, and if actually encountering ECM is not garantueed, yes, then the counter sucks. I have had Armageddons fit with multiple ECCM being dead in the water against a Falcon. There are only so many midslots to go about before you turn your ship into a vessel fit for little else but not being jammed. Originally by: Merdaneth You use cookie cutter ship setups and excpect to be able to handle every situation you encounter - that to me ruins the immersive quality of the gameplay, and doesn't fit within the rock-paper-scissor game design. You are making more wrong assumptions. I'm in fact well known for innovative fittings, rarely use cookie-cutter setup. Please stay on topic and attack the arguments, not the person writing them. Originally by: Christari Zuborov I don't even know what to say to this... I'm assuming you don't fit resistances based upon what ships you might enounter as well? No, it means if that nearly nobody fits for specific resistances, because they might never know what they will encounter. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:37:00 - [102] Originally by: baltec1 Point one. You lot who are screaming nerf falcons are having trouble with them yet you will not adapt your fittings because it is not worth sacrificing one or two mid slots? So which is it? Are falcons powerfull and require you to fit to counter them or are they weak and are not worth fitting counters? They cannot be both now can they? So, why are you not fitting a rack of smartbombs to counter drones? Yes, because the cost is generally too high, no point in turning a ship into an anti-drone ship and using its general utility. The best counter against a Falcon is another Falcon. Better have one pilot flying a counter-Falcon, than a lot of pilots spending precious midslots to fit ECCM. I would adapt my fittings if it was an effective counter. Then again, I often fly interceptors, and yes, I could put two ECCM in my Crusader's midslots, but it won't protect it, and will make it useless in its function. Originally by: baltec1 Ask yourselves this. Why is it that my little stealth bomber can beat falcons in almost perfect safety while your entire fleet is crippled by them? Does this mean that you will be calling nerf on my bomber because it can rip apart a ship that you consider overpowered? Quite academic question. Stealth bombers have limited utility, and even more so against Falcons. You would be more useful as an anti-Falcon platform and gang benefit in a Falcon yourself. Besides the fact that one Stealth Bomber needs a set of very specific circumstances to beat a Falcon. Hell, I've made Falcons run in my Crusader. That's not due to the power of the Crusader, but due to my piloting skill. And I make your stealth bombers run too. But even I recognize imbalance when I see it. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:38:00 - [103] Originally by: Ikonz Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48 lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming. Please come up with arguments, and not the generalizations. They add nothing to the discussion. It fits in right with adapt or die, learn to play etc. No content at all. Either support your opinion with arguments or don't bother posting. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Ikonz Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48 lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming. Please come up with arguments, and not the generalizations. They add nothing to the discussion. It fits in right with adapt or die, learn to play etc. No content at all. Either support your opinion with arguments or don't bother posting. Does that apply to the "wwaaaa PERMA-jammed with 7 billion sig str" kinda comment threads like these get filled with?.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:49:00 - [105] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Ikonz Edited by: Ikonz on 29/12/2008 13:47:48 lets not make eve a game where only the amount of damage that you can dish out matters. Which is something that its rapidly becoming. Please come up with arguments, and not the generalizations. They add nothing to the discussion. It fits in right with adapt or die, learn to play etc. No content at all. Either support your opinion with arguments or don't bother posting. Does that apply to the "wwaaaa PERMA-jammed with 7 billion sig str" kinda comment threads like these get filled with?. Actually, I found the fraps: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=843770 There is the proof so now you can STFU (also, I didn't say 7 billion str, I said a high number in the hundreds) Point, Game, Match, thanks!
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:53:00 - [106] Originally by: Hysteresis It's near the end of the vid FYI. And if it shows a 1300 sig str "perma jam" you may keep posting...
Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2008.12.29 14:58:00 - [107] Originally by: barvo .... Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons. Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km You'll notice the falcon is the only force recon that gets both ewar bonuses directed at the same item. That's part of the problem; whereas Arazu pilots will (for example) fit points as well as remote sensor damps, making use of the ability to hold people at extended range as well as damping bs's out of fights, falcon pilots can use all mids (or more likely all minus one for mwd) as ECM slots. Also, the falcon seems to be able to lock a long way past all the other recons, without adding any sensor boosters or signal amps. Now, the falcon is a specialised ship, more so than the other recons; it only has one purpose and one way of affecting the battle - ECM. I'm not sure any purpose would be served by splitting up the bonuses - I'm not sure it would make sense anyway as there's nothing else in the 'Ewar' arsenal that isn't already covered in another race's force recon. My proposal to deal with the issue of falcons ruining everyone's day is twofold. * Firstly, reduce the targetting range of the falcon to 110k after skills, so that in order to use it past 150km you would need 1 sensor booster and towards 200km you'd need two sensor boosters. This reduces the number of ecm slots (or sig dist amp slots) that the falcon pilot can utilise from extreme range, without compromising the effectiveness when it gets a jam off. It should have the ultimate effect of reducing the number of ships a single falcon can knock out of the fight at range closer to that of the other force recons. * Secondly, a 10% improvement to ECCM effectiveness would go a long way. My preference would be to do this with a skillbook, 2% improvement to (each) ECCM module per level. No amount of ECCM should ever make you completely immune to jamming. The whole foundation of ECM in the game is based around chance. I don't support the whole warp core stabs vs. warp disrupt points analogy, because then what's the point of a specialised ECM ship, if people can totally counteract it? CCP would have to then invent the ECM equivalent of dictor and hictor bubbles, and everyone would just cry all over again, only slightly louder this time as the player base increases in size. FOF missiles, on the other hand, do not need a buff. The only boost required for these is to people's memory, so that they actually remember to stick some in their hold before they find themselves on the field, jammed to hell ;) In the meantime, ECCM does still increase your chances of avioding a jam, drones do still go after stuff that engages you while you're jammed, and FoF missiles do still shoot the nearest target while you can't lock anything. Oh, RSD's do still damp the range of falcons if you have capable pilots to get you in range, target painters do still light them up like guy fawkes on bonfire night for your one non-jammed BS to alpha them into next week, and when all is said and done, even if a velator locks the falcon, it can no longer cloak. ... As much I as would not like to see a Falcon change I agree with everything this guy said. I would however, like to see a sort of FOF missile specifically for use against ECM (all forms). A heavy class missile that didn't require target lock and chased down the nearest ECM projector. Be it TD, RSD, Jammer, ect. A kind of HARM weapon for New Eden This way the ship effectively taken out of the fight can still contribute to the battle (if properly equipped), and not feel helpless and therefore not frustrated. But if CCP did nothing at all, I would be fine with that too.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:00:00 - [108] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Hysteresis It's near the end of the vid FYI. And if it shows a 1300 sig str "perma jam" you may keep posting... Right... again I said in the hundreds with an arbitrary value. However since you outright called me a liar then asked for proof and said it isn't possible, I would say that your 'facts' are made up. Your proof or stfu: Show me a fraps where the falcon pilot with good skills and setup DOESN'T jam a regular cruiser (since you pointed out that you can't keep them jammed).
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:05:00 - [109] Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 15:08:18 Originally by: Hysteresis Right... again I said in the hundreds with an arbitrary value. REALLY?. Originally by: Hysteresis if your sensor strength is 1,300 and you are being perma jammed.... there is a problem! PS: Asking for proof of a claim is not calling you a liar.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:10:00 - [110] At 11:05, 3x ECCM II's, str of 115 getting jammed the whole time. Thoughts?

maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:12:00 - [111] Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 15:12:35 Originally by: Hysteresis At 11:05, 3x ECCM II's, str of 115 getting jammed the whole time. Thoughts? Well first id say your missing at least a zero from your original emo fueled claims of 1300 str......and it falls rather short of your other claims of "hundreds (or higher)" str..
Caoim Fearghul Caldari Fearghul Corp The Dominion Empire	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:13:00 - [112] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Hysteresis At 11:05, 3x ECCM II's, str of 115 getting jammed the whole time. Thoughts? Well first id say your missing at least a zero from your original emo fueled claims of 1300 str...... It's only an entire order of magnitude out after all... Prodesse Non Nocere
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:17:00 - [113] I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. Focus on the facts I gave not the speculation I already said was made up. Here are teh facts, now discuss having 115 str and getting perma-jammed. Exactly what I thought, I have proof and all you can do is say "let's forget the fact and make fun of random figures" Come on guys, stick to the topic.
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:19:00 - [114] Edited by: baltec1 on 29/12/2008 15:20:40 Originally by: Merdaneth So, why are you not fitting a rack of smartbombs to counter drones? Yes, because the cost is generally too high, no point in turning a ship into an anti-drone ship and using its general utility. The best counter against a Falcon is another Falcon. Better have one pilot flying a counter-Falcon, than a lot of pilots spending precious midslots to fit ECCM. I would adapt my fittings if it was an effective counter. Then again, I often fly interceptors, and yes, I could put two ECCM in my Crusader's midslots, but it won't protect it, and will make it useless in its function. My bomber just avoids them, taking out drones is not my job in a fight nore is my ship built for it. My job is advanced scout, alpha striking soft irritating targets and disrupting the econimics/supplies of the enemy. Quote: Quite academic question. Stealth bombers have limited utility, and even more so against Falcons. You would be more useful as an anti-Falcon platform and gang benefit in a Falcon yourself. Besides the fact that one Stealth Bomber needs a set of very specific circumstances to beat a Falcon. Hell, I've made Falcons run in my Crusader. That's not due to the power of the Crusader, but due to my piloting skill. And I make your stealth bombers run too. But even I recognize imbalance when I see it. Unlike your sader my bomber will not get jammed due to the tactics I use. Also unlike your sader I can wipe out the falcon in 3-4 vollies and force it to lose lock on all of its targets. As for me in a falcon, I would rather bring a bomber every time because not only can it wipe the deck with falcons but it does it for much less isk.
Caoim Fearghul Caldari Fearghul Corp The Dominion Empire	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:20:00 - [115] Originally by: Hysteresis I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. Focus on the facts I gave not the speculation I already said was made up. Here are teh facts, now discuss having 115 str and getting perma-jammed. Exactly what I thought, I have proof and all you can do is say "let's forget the fact and make fun of random figures" Come on guys, stick to the topic. ECM is random chance based. Mostly because people whined to get it nerfed when it was pure point based...do you know how much use a single data point is? Does, for example, the term statistical fluke mean anything to you? Prodesse Non Nocere
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:22:00 - [116] Originally by: Hysteresis I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. I am still waiting for the DL to finish before i comment, as your reliability, honesty and accuracy is rather questionable due to recent posts tbh.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:23:00 - [117] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Hysteresis I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. I am still waiting for the DL to finish before i comment, as your reliability, honesty and accuracy is rather questionable due to recent posts tbh. Ditto to you, as saying that a cruiser can't be jammed all the time
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:24:00 - [118] Edited by: maralt on 29/12/2008 15:26:35 Originally by: Hysteresis Originally by: maralt Originally by: Hysteresis I'm still waiting to hear your thoughts on having it be 115 and still getting jammed the WHOLE time, not about my previously said made up number of 1300. I am still waiting for the DL to finish before i comment, as your reliability, honesty and accuracy is rather questionable due to recent posts tbh. Ditto to you, as saying that a cruiser can't be jammed all the time Did i, are you sure that was me and not somebody else or are you making things up again?.
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:34:00 - [119] Originally by: barvo Let's just whinewhinewhinewhineOMFGWHINE, instead of coming with a reasoned argument. Let me try one for you. I'm going to preface this by stating my position: Falcons are a specialised ship and are excellent at their role, but I agree that they are out of line with their counterparts. Let's actually look at the Ewar bonuses, and ship's targetting range for my alt, for the force recons. Falcon - ECM range, ECM strength, 180km Rapier - Target Painter effectiveness, Web Range, 125km Arazu - RSD effectiveness, Scram range, 140km Pilgrim - NOS amount, Tracking disruptor effectiveness, 130km Falcon - All Skills at V Lock Range 150km ECM Optimal 162km (Racial ECM TII) ECM Falloff 41km Rapier - All Skills at V Lock Range 125km Target Painter Optimal 45km Target Painter Falloff 90km Web Range 40km You could argue that the rapier is a weaker ship and its bonusses dont compare to the falcons but the Rapier has 2 Viable EWAR bonusses Web and Target Painting. IIRC the rapier initially had a lower web range compared to the Huginn just like all recons did compared to their Combat brothers. 162km for ECM Optimal is kinda scary and again adds to the falcons perfection and maybe it could do with being dropped and the whole ECM ships given a more tiered aproach so that the scorp has the uber range and the falcon becomes more mid ranged. the Web bonus has always been a bone of contention for me but as others will most likley point out a web that reaches out and touches someone at 100km might be a tad overpowered. FYI mine typically goes 60(ish)km Personally i dont give a crap about the falcons additional 25km and recon ranges have their advantages for all of them. Falcons have Twin bonusses to ECM which again adds to the falcons awesomness but what would you do to correct it ? Would you give Target painting to caldari to aid missiles etc then what would you give the rapier web strength and range ? of all the ship classes in game the Recons (both types) are perfect.
Cyrus Brown	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:37:00 - [120] Nerf Falcons.



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