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Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:32:00 - [1] It's kind of patently obvious that destroyers are the redheaded stepchild of the light craft category. They need a boost to make them viable, I think its time we seriously look at removing the 25% ROF penalty. Or at the very least making the 10 bonus to optimal AND Falloff. Of those two which do you think will work the best, do you have other suggestions. I really don't think thier durability needs to be substantially increased as that would just turn them into halfway cruisers. They have a role as portable damage dealers (glass cannons) and as pickets to destroy tacklers going after more valuable ships. If we got rid of the ROF penalty they would remain just as vulnerable to larger ships however they would become a pretty damn valid way to swat away tacklers short of a Hictor. They also need to be boosted to a warp speed closer to frigates then cruisers.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:35:00 - [2] Damage dealing isn't a problem, but damage absorption is. A frigate tank that can be hit with medium weapons for nearly full damage is just If anything you might have to reduce their damage dealing ability if you upped their tank, in order to avoid unbalancing them too far against frigates.
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:36:00 - [3] whoops this was suppossed to be in Ships and Mods.
Agent Unknown Caldari Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:39:00 - [4] O well...a mod will probably move it ;) I also noticed the severe lack of powergrid in the destroyer class as well. I'm hard-pressed to find viable fittings for it...so I moved up to a Moa instead. Now I just use it as a salvage boat ;) It could seriously use a faster warp time, though...it's as slow as a Cruiser when it comes to warping. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2009.01.23 21:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 23/01/2009 22:06:09 -2 gun slots -25% RoF penalty destroyer sig radius = racial frig average +15% +1 low/midslot /edit : and 6 au/s warpspeed.
Suitonia Gallente interimo End of The Line.	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:01:00 - [6] They really just need an extra slot. +1 mid on the Catalyst and Coercer, and +1 low on the Thrasher and Cormorant would make them alot better.
Tele Z'thain	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:02:00 - [7] People use destroyers for combat? I thought they were only for salvaging wrecks.
Talen Kross T Miners	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:06:00 - [8] Destroyers are the ship of choice for solo capping. If a frigate jumps in you can one or 2 volley them.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Tele Z'thain People use destroyers for combat? I thought they were only for salvaging wrecks. mostly for mining veldspar
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.01.23 22:35:00 - [10] slightly more speed wouldn tbe too bad

Neesa Corrinne Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:06:00 - [11] The OP is on crack: Evidence Evidence ... and if the rest of them didn't all run away in structure, there'd be lots more. ---------------------------------
EnslaverOfMinmatar	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:08:00 - [12] No they don't, just train destroyers V and fly a dictor. uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:09:00 - [13] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/01/2009 23:10:48 Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar No they don't, just train destroyers V and fly a dictor. survivalability of dictor locked by cruiser is counted in miliseconds FYI flown dctors for ages now but after "speed nerf" i gave up - they die way too fast. Dessys are even worse than dictors. EDIT: as for kills above grats - you killed caracal with 4 launchers out of 5, medium extenders instead of large and other random crap put in. I guess i can say hulks are perfect pvp ships coz they would kill that caracal as easily.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:13:00 - [14] Destroyers are the work horse for FacWar lvl 1 and 2 plex warfare. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:54:00 - [15] the destroy class ship are ment to be anti frigate ship , i think they are certianly fitted to this role with the vast amount of gun they can field, which because they are in plenty against a frigate should easy overcome it target. i have made a case to why i dont believe they are/needing a boost. sorry if my idea conflict with you idea im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:02:00 - [16] Destroyers do the antifrigate role adaquetely but really not well enough to counterbalance their severe vulnerability to all ships (including frigates)
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:04:00 - [17] that all i am awear that they do they are a anti frigate platform, the t2 version are nice but like every ship they t2 version are better in many ways, with extra slots better armour, there anti frigatness is adequate as it stands and this is there only intended role. although they do make good salvage boats aswell. im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:08:00 - [18] Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar No they don't, just train destroyers V and fly a dictor. Yes, then you can have a terrible ship that's also expensive. Interdictors are nice enough, but they're really not very impressive combat ships - they're about on a par with destroyers, only without the fitting space to even shoehorn on the 'long range' frigate guns. That said, I'm not sure 'normal' destroyers need much alteration - a bit less sig, maybe, but not much more. What I'd like to see is a T2 variant - the 'long range gun' version, rather than what the interdictors do. -- 249km locking?
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:13:00 - [19] as i am awear they arnt ment to be designed for engaing combat , just putting up bubbles? and also getting on KM's i havnt seen anyone take there out just purly for combatness set for DPS im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
Grarr Dexx Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne The OP is on crack: Evidence Evidence ... and if the rest of them didn't all run away in structure, there'd be lots more. I digress. Destroyers are fine, I am raping frigates left and right with a Coercer. ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:16:00 - [21] bearing in mind that you going against a t2 ship in a t1 ship , if you had the intidictor, i reckon the fight would of been different im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
Grarr Dexx Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:18:00 - [22] I don't even bother with dictors, I know their skills are gonna be peaked. (Also I know what you are trying to do, I'm not gonna let you claim victory over GD) ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:22:00 - [23] Edited by: Armoured C on 24/01/2009 00:22:53 Destroyer Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity and 3% reduction of Light Missile damage reduction factor per level Interdictors Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile kinetic damage and 10% bonus to Interdiction Sphere Launcher rate of fire per level compared to the destroyer Destroyer Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per level Penalty: -25% rate of fire for all turrets Bonus: 50% bonus to optimal range for small hybrid turrets . so not only do you loose rate of fire being in the t1 version, but you can output less damage ,t2 have more slots to fit maybe tanking equipment on board. i still believe you are wrong about destroyers needing a boost put a t1 frig against a t1 destroyer and i believe the destroyer will win im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Damage dealing isn't a problem, but damage absorption is. A frigate tank that can be hit with medium weapons for nearly full damage is just If anything you might have to reduce their damage dealing ability if you upped their tank, in order to avoid unbalancing them too far against frigates. this there is no reason to use a thrasher over a stabber for killing frigates. there SHOULD be.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:26:00 - [25] Revelation for the OP - List of near utterly useless ships in Eve that no amount of isk poured into will stop them dying like tissue paper to nearly all enemies they could meet. Frigates Inquisitor Tormentor Bantam Navitas Burst Destroyers Cormorant Heretic Flycatcher Eris Cruisers Scythe Augoror Omen Moa Stealth Bombers All
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:27:00 - [26] didnt they get a sig radius drop so that they are with in line of ship size between cruiser and frigates, and i dont konw many frigates that can tank , should this be the same for the destroyer im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:29:00 - [27] As it is Destroyers are substantially slower then Frigates, get much less bonus from speed mods (Which is perhaps appropriate but it isn't uncommon to see cruisers going faster then destroyers and with a lot less effort too), cost about as much to kit well as larger and/or more expensive ships. (buying 8 125 II's at a time starts to hurt after a while), get hit for full damage by cruiser guns, have marginally more hitpoints then frigs, have substantially more signature, warp at the same speed as cruisers (which makes people turn up their noses when you bring one to a frig gang). Have barely enough grid to fit their own guns and any sort of fit, have neither the capacitor nor the slots for any form of versatility and some of their bonus' don't make any sense (Catalyst really doesn't benefit as greatly from the range bonus as the cormorant does).
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:35:00 - [28] well if you fit it with a AB instead of a MWD maybe you sig radius might be much lower. people tend to forget MWD add sig which is why if i have a logistic ship i have a AB. im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog
Breaker77	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:35:00 - [29] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Frigates Inquisitor Tormentor Bantam Navitas Burst Congratulations. You managed to list all four mining frigates. I wonder why they die when they are attacked?? You might as well ask why freighters are not killing more ships.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:42:00 - [30] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/01/2009 00:26:51 Revelation for the OP - List of near utterly useless ships in Eve that no amount of isk poured into will stop them dying like tissue paper to nearly all enemies they could meet. Frigates Inquisitor Tormentor Bantam Navitas Burst Destroyers Coercer Heretic Flycatcher Eris Cruisers Scythe Augoror Omen Moa Stealth Bombers All few thing i have to bring up with your post, for a stealth bomber you should be using bombs as this is what it was designed for uncloak , realese and cloak , if you get targeted i believe you are doign something wrong, the omen is a good ship and if you tank it correctly will do it buisness if you fit it properly and the augurer is a logistic t1 variant this is likly to be primeried by everyone at the fight so it will melt pretty fast there also a few problem with some of your ships but i havent had enough experience to say stuff about them, but most of your list is pretty wrong from what i am seeing . please learn to play the game im being nice for a week, dont be to freaked out click here for the EvELife blog

OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:53:00 - [31] DD'S should get a bonus with the web. real dd's in life where built for speed so they should get a mwd bonus or a sig bonus.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 00:54:00 - [32] so many give it a bonus like assult frigates ? PWNING GD since 06 click here for the EvELife blog
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Armoured C so many give it a bonus like assult frigates ? OH No, I want a bonus that actually works.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:05:00 - [34] but web bonuses are recon bonuses , they got a sig reduction but you have to put AB on to make it effective i guess so that you harder to hit ? PWNING GD since 06 click here for the EvELife blog
SkyLordUK Amarr Baptism oF Fire B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:07:00 - [35] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/01/2009 00:26:51 Revelation for the OP - List of near utterly useless ships in Eve that no amount of isk poured into will stop them dying like tissue paper to nearly all enemies they could meet. Cruisers Scythe Augoror Omen Moa u obviously havent met me in my omen took me a few months to work out the bugs but by heck an omen can cause havoc if left alone
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:08:00 - [36] Originally by: SkyLordUK Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/01/2009 00:26:51 Revelation for the OP - List of near utterly useless ships in Eve that no amount of isk poured into will stop them dying like tissue paper to nearly all enemies they could meet. Cruisers Scythe Augoror Omen Moa u obviously havent met me in my omen took me a few months to work out the bugs but by heck an omen can cause havoc if left alone second this
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:23:00 - [37] If I wasn't so chuffed about how well the Thrasher performs in its role once you have top skills (1600 alpha and permaruns at 2000ms. :-D) I might be arsed to complain. Cormie and to a lesser extent the catalyst are the long range snipers. The coercer and its myrid lows turns it into shredder for any frig or pod who wanders into its 23km 220dps almost instalocking sphere of sparkling lazor death. I guess its just the mandatory requirement of the near maximum fitting skills to get them to perform well for pvp is what puts the majority of people off. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:25:00 - [38] most people like me trained it when i were a newbie and went to cruisers PWNING GD since 06 click here for the EvELife blog
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:52:00 - [39] They are great ships to take to a blob. 8 x small pulse = high chance of getting KM.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:54:00 - [40] blob you want a dictor :) you get on every KM then :) at least i think it works like that can someone C/D this ? PWNING GD since 06 http://evelife.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/eve-life-new-year-tidings/[url]

James Holcomb Caldari Davy Jones Locker Enforcers of Serenity	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:02:00 - [41] I'd just like to see the comorant have the ability to fit more than one missile turret.
Haakelen Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:02:00 - [42] Originally by: James Holcomb I'd just like to see the comorant have the ability to fit more than one missile turret. Try a flycatcher.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:04:00 - [43] dont go caldari they are rubbish :) and ebil PWNING GD since 06 http://evelife.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/eve-life-new-year-tidings/[url]
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: James Holcomb I'd just like to see the comorant have the ability to fit more than one missile turret. Try a flycatcher. Actually, it'd be nice to have a 'proper' missile destroyer. At the same time as having a proper railgun T2 destroyer. -- 249km locking?
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:22:00 - [45] just use cruisers :p much more versatile PWNING GD since 06 http://evelife.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/eve-life-new-year-tidings/[url]
Haakelen Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:24:00 - [46] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: James Holcomb I'd just like to see the comorant have the ability to fit more than one missile turret. Try a flycatcher. Actually, it'd be nice to have a 'proper' missile destroyer. At the same time as having a proper railgun T2 destroyer. I would really like a mini-cerberus t2 cormorant with explosion velocity/radius bonuses, an inty chewing machine. Probably overpowered, but it'd make destroyers fun again.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:24:00 - [47] The problem is not that they suck, its that they are misplaced in the progression of ships. I think in order to train destroyer skill you should need all basic fitting skills to 5.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Vabjekf The problem is not that they suck, its that they are misplaced in the progression of ships. I think in order to train destroyer skill you should need all basic fitting skills to 5. that a idea PWNING GD since 06 http://evelife.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/eve-life-new-year-tidings/[url]
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:36:00 - [49] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 24/01/2009 02:45:14 Since people want to pick my post apart I'll post why I posted what I did. Mining frigates weren't posted for combat efficiency, they were posted because they are pointless to anyone older then about 3 days. Coercer because of it's one midslot and stuck with being some sort of camper. augoror does cap transfer, limited usefulness. scythe target painting, more niche than cap transfer. Fitting bombs on stealth bombers, sooo, a frig with very limited usefulness again, only going to be doing that in 0.0 . Moa has no role. Maybe omen is a little unfair, but it's a very disposable cruiser, I've seen people lose no end of them. I'm more than happy if I saw an enemy in one, even if I was in a tech 1 cruiser too, free kill! woo! Throwaway paper ganker/tackler usually. It's like a caracal that dropped it's typical support role for kamikaze.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:38:00 - [50] amarr use alot of cap augoror does cap transfer, limited usefulness actually helpful my apoc could use a few burst of cap sometimes when sniping

Alex Raptos Caldari The Firestorm Millennium	Posted - 2009.01.24 02:41:00 - [51] They salvagwe stuff fine and do level 2's fine, what else do you need from a 700k-1mill ship?
Sagacious Z Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.24 03:09:00 - [52] Edited by: Sagacious Z on 24/01/2009 03:12:44 It seems every mod and every class of ship and even every individual ship has had its time in the forum of "why don't you nerf this and buff that"? Why don't players just play and enjoy the game, making use of the strengths and weaknesses of each mod and ship? This thread should be in the "Features and Ideas Discussion Forum" if you feel a game play item REALLY needs tweaked. By the way, I can't play without my destroyers. For the role I use them for, they are ideal. You need to find your "ideal role" for your destroyers.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.24 03:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Armoured C blob you want a dictor :) you get on every KM then :) at least i think it works like that can someone C/D this ? only if they try to warp out, so c and d!
OffBeaT Caldari KaMiKaZes	Posted - 2009.01.24 04:32:00 - [54] Edited by: OffBeaT on 24/01/2009 04:33:23 look we have nothing right now to counter cloak ships right so why not re roll the use of of the dd as they where in ww2 with fleets as sub hunters. why not use them in the same way as anti cloak ship hunters.. i type of sub hunter in eve..
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.24 04:39:00 - [55] Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 24/01/2009 04:33:23 look we have nothing right now to counter cloak ships right so why not re roll the use of of the dd as they where in ww2 with fleets as sub hunters. why not use them in the same way as anti cloak ship hunters.. i type of sub hunter in eve.. i will agree with this because i actually had this idea once and made a post about it and everything, it was part of an idea i had to redo ship scanners entierly. destroyers would be able to detect if a nearby cloaked ship was present, and be able to try and track it down, and could have a short range hi slot item to try and decloak nearby ships, or could eventually force one out of cloak if it pinpointed it on its scanners. of course the cloaked ship could always run away, particularly with a cov ops cloak, but thats where the close range (~15km) decloak module came in, you could always get lucky with that.
UMEE	Posted - 2009.01.24 08:27:00 - [56] destroyers are extremely underrated. T1 frig and destroyer gangs are like a swarm of flesh eating ants, devouring everything in their way. a destroyer does crazy damaged with high gunnery skills. just hope no one targets you and blast away. i dont think dessies need a boost. they're very popular in faction warfare and small gangs, especially for high SP players.
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.24 09:55:00 - [57] Originally by: Armoured C amarr use alot of cap augoror does cap transfer, limited usefulness actually helpful my apoc could use a few burst of cap sometimes when sniping Hmmm ill bring apoc + augoror or 2x apoc to fleet. Tough choice...
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.24 10:35:00 - [58] I heard someone was smacking the Moa. To him I say: GTFO DEAR SIR! As for destroyers needing a boost? Not really, maybe just put them all in line w/ the Thrasher. Rule of Thumb: If you think X ship is useless, you're most likely doing it wrong - MY LATEST VIDEO - FRIGANK 4
Battlecheese Caldari SiN. Corp Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.24 11:15:00 - [59] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Mining frigates weren't posted for combat efficiency, they were posted because they are pointless to anyone older then about 3 days. Tragically, you are correct. They hark from an age where noobs started with far fewer than 800k SPs.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.24 11:43:00 - [60] I don't think the tier 1 destroyers need a boost. I just think that we need more destroyers; a tier 2 destroyer for each race, and some T2 hulls; the long-awaited "science ship" with bonuses to salvaging, hacking and archeology; a T2 destroyer specifically designed to counter cloaking ships; and maybe an "assault" destroyer - your basic destroyer with T2 resists and a little more firepower.

Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2009.01.24 12:27:00 - [61] The deal is this, either you give the destroyer Cruiser sized damage absorption capabilities , or a Frigates ability to evade the damage with speed and sig radius exploiting the transversal velocity.
Von Sadist	Posted - 2009.01.24 12:50:00 - [62] I didnt read the entire post but I would like to se some more destroyers types since I think destroyers are awesomecake
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.24 12:54:00 - [63] Originally by: UMEE destroyers are extremely underrated. T1 frig and destroyer gangs are like a swarm of flesh eating ants, devouring everything in their way. a destroyer does crazy damaged with high gunnery skills. just hope no one targets you and blast away. i dont think dessies need a boost. they're very popular in faction warfare and small gangs, especially for high SP players. No, they're not underrated - it's not that you cannot do something good in them, it's that you can do it better in a different ship. Destroyers are nice with high gunnery, but 'optimism tanking' isn't really acceptable.
Milo Caman Gallente Asteri Rising Asteri Ethnos	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:04:00 - [64] Destroyers need a boost. Sure, fit them right, and you might get some kills, but against anything with DPS, they fold ultra fast. I've popped so many badly fitted coercer's since I've moved to Amarr space, It'd be nice to say I'd put effort into the fights, but I haven't. Boost Destroyers? Please? ----- Transcend EVE
Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:18:00 - [65] Originally by: Vabjekf Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 24/01/2009 04:33:23 look we have nothing right now to counter cloak ships right so why not re roll the use of of the dd as they where in ww2 with fleets as sub hunters. why not use them in the same way as anti cloak ship hunters.. i type of sub hunter in eve.. i will agree with this because i actually had this idea once and made a post about it and everything, it was part of an idea i had to redo ship scanners entierly. destroyers would be able to detect if a nearby cloaked ship was present, and be able to try and track it down, and could have a short range hi slot item to try and decloak nearby ships, or could eventually force one out of cloak if it pinpointed it on its scanners. of course the cloaked ship could always run away, particularly with a cov ops cloak, but thats where the close range (~15km) decloak module came in, you could always get lucky with that. Cloak hunters, and mines either as a new T2 ship...or a new module. I'de like to see it work like this. You launch a missle without targetting something. It travels a certain distance (time to explosion is detirmined by the kind of missle), and if the cloaked ship is caught in the blast radius ...the visual cloak gets interfearance for a couple of seconds. However it will still not show up on overview. You will have to target the ship as if you're targetting something without brackets, then put a target painter on it to expose it to overview window. Direction you shoot the missle at is detirmined by the direction your camera is looking at. It pops out of the launcher without guidance, then goes to where you pointed it at.
Jezi Soleater	Posted - 2009.01.24 17:16:00 - [66] Originally by: Malcanis I don't think the tier 1 destroyers need a boost. I just think that we need more destroyers; a tier 2 destroyer for each race, and some T2 hulls; the long-awaited "science ship" with bonuses to salvaging, hacking and archeology; a T2 destroyer specifically designed to counter cloaking ships; and maybe an "assault" destroyer - your basic destroyer with T2 resists and a little more firepower. Really like those two ideas. Thrasher is nice for L2 complexes and salvaging, but would be cool to have a dedicated science ship.
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:50:00 - [67] Ok lets break this down to a more useful discussion with component parts. Its not that destroyers don't have any use (They are actually the ship I have the most kills in), its that their use and purpose is esoteric, poorly defined and poorly served. Components of the discussion: A: Warp speed, I think this is the least controversial. Right now bringing a destroyer in a frig gang slows the whole gang down as much as a cruiser. Their warp speed should be between that of a cruiser and a frig. (4.5-5 au/s) B: They have a nerf which mitigates and exacerbates one of their main strengths and weaknesses, in the ROF penalty. Their main strength being their large amount of weapons, which are functionally reduced by a quarter. The problem is that even though your getting only 3/4 the dps of the guns your fitting your still paying full price for the fit. Dropping the ROF Penalty probably wouldn't be too unbalancing and would probably fix destroyers on its own. However if you dropped it and looked into their agility/armor/slots you could bring their weapons down to say 6 and cut the cost of fitting one substantially. C: Slot layout, they are some of the least versatile ships in the game. Gank is all they really can do. They simply don't have the slots to support anything beyond a basic fitting and guns. If they eliminated 2 highs (and the ROF Penalty) it would probably be pretty reasonable to give an extra mid to the Coercer and Catalyst, and an extra low to the Thrasher and Cormorant. D: Fitting, Even if you can find something you want to do with one your still paying full fitting cost for functionally 3/4 of the guns. Its looking like getting rid of two guns and the ROF Penalty would be a panacea, but this could also be solved by a 25% reduction to small guns powergrid use. E: Agility and Durability, this is skewed in an unhealthy way. They aren't particularly agile but they arent particularly durable either. These values need to be balanced between the biggest frigs and the smallest cruisers. Currently thier agility and sig is closer to cruisers and thier hitpoints are closer to frigs. F: Capacitor, they have a lot of power draw from their weapons, and again your paying full price for 3/4 of the effect. They have a hard time running thier guns and anything else. Again it looks like getting rid of two turrets and the ROF penalty would solve a lot of problems here. G: Lack of diversity. Its time for tier 2 destroyers, give the Caldari a proper little missille spammer and the Gallente a drone boat... H: Expense, a million isk hull and 8 1.5 million isk guns with little survivability does get old after a while. Again hislot removal and losing the ROF penalty solves this problem.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:55:00 - [68] F) is not true, cap use would remain the same roughly.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:09:00 - [69] Originally by: Max Hardcase F) is not true, cap use would remain the same roughly. the only good desty has capless guns anyway...
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:14:00 - [70] Well this is a thread about improving destroyers so feel free to contribute. Yes the trasher can 1hit stuff, no thats not the only criteria for "good".

Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:33:00 - [71] Originally by: Max Hardcase F) is not true, cap use would remain the same roughly. Its more desirable to have a more consistent lower cap drain over time then it is to have high bursts of cap use, with the way the cap equation works its very easy to shoot past your peak recharge and run yourself low in a destroyer. So the same cap use over time would still be preferable if it wasn't so damn peaky.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.01.25 01:51:00 - [72] Originally by: Gierling : A: Warp speed, I think this is the least controversial. Right now bringing a destroyer in a frig gang slows the whole gang down as much as a cruiser. Their warp speed should be between that of a cruiser and a frig. (4.5-5 au/s) H: Expense, a million isk hull and 8 1.5 million isk guns with little survivability does get old after a while. Again hislot removal and losing the ROF penalty solves this problem. I personally think that Destroyers are fine, they are frequently fielded in all types of roles such as mission running, salvaging and PvP. However, the above concerns I find to be valid (although minor). They are a bit too costly (rememberyou already have to fit 8 guns) and I can't see any good reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to roam as quickly as frigates.
MukkBarovian	Posted - 2009.01.25 09:15:00 - [73] Im pretty happy with the thrasher, and im pretty sure the corm is ok. The others are meh. There are two things I would actually like to see. Destroyers should be faster than cruisers. They should warp at a faster speed and they should be able to outrun a cruiser while still being significantly slower than a frigate. Teir two destroyers. A caldari missile boat, a gallente drone boat, idk what for minmatar and amar, give that size ship a little more variety.
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.25 18:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Psiri Originally by: Gierling : A: Warp speed, I think this is the least controversial. Right now bringing a destroyer in a frig gang slows the whole gang down as much as a cruiser. Their warp speed should be between that of a cruiser and a frig. (4.5-5 au/s) H: Expense, a million isk hull and 8 1.5 million isk guns with little survivability does get old after a while. Again hislot removal and losing the ROF penalty solves this problem. I personally think that Destroyers are fine, they are frequently fielded in all types of roles such as mission running, salvaging and PvP. However, the above concerns I find to be valid (although minor). They are a bit too costly (rememberyou already have to fit 8 guns) and I can't see any good reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to roam as quickly as frigates. Yeah I figure warp speed is the least we can ask for, and the guns thing is silly, get rid of the penalty get rid of a quarter of the guns and you've lowered the cost of flying the damn ship considerably without actually changing it.
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2009.01.26 10:53:00 - [75] Originally by: Gierling Yeah I figure warp speed is the least we can ask for, and the guns thing is silly, get rid of the penalty get rid of a quarter of the guns and you've lowered the cost of flying the damn ship considerably without actually changing it. Except you lose its alpha strike which makes certain dessies so much fun. When your opponent is put deep into armour with your first volley, they start to think more about getting out of the situation than they do about fighting back.
Gierling Gallente Viper Squad	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:05:00 - [76] Originally by: Doctor Mabuse Originally by: Gierling Yeah I figure warp speed is the least we can ask for, and the guns thing is silly, get rid of the penalty get rid of a quarter of the guns and you've lowered the cost of flying the damn ship considerably without actually changing it. Except you lose its alpha strike which makes certain dessies so much fun. When your opponent is put deep into armour with your first volley, they start to think more about getting out of the situation than they do about fighting back. The Thrasher being really fun is NOT an argument against boosting Dessies in General. Its well acknowledged that the Thrasher is the best of the bunch.
Axel Vindislaga	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:44:00 - [77] Edited by: Axel Vindislaga on 27/01/2009 04:45:55 Originally by: Suitonia They really just need an extra slot. +1 mid on the Catalyst and Coercer, and +1 low on the Thrasher and Cormorant would make them alot better. TOTALLY AGREE This is exactly what I was going to post.. Aren't I good for reading the thread. I love Destroyers. I think they need to be almost powerful enough to handle two frigates. The Cormorant Model is a tad ugly... Just ever so barely acceptable to watch. EDIT: Oh yeah boost to warp speed.
P'uck	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:49:00 - [78] I can agree on the warpspeed thingie - but I guess that's it.
Woulvesbaine	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:06:00 - [79] I think you have to ask a simple question: 1) Was the intent of CCP to make destroyers a combat role ship? (yes) 2) Are the ships used in the way they were intended? (rarely, mostly they are used as salvagers) 3) Therefore do they succeed at fulfilling their role? (not very well). We see a variety of all class of combat ships in PvP in eve. I doubt anyone will argue that they see cruisers, BS, recon, BC etc often in PvP. I see a lot of frigates as well and many of the t2 variants of base ships including ceptors, HAC's, and others already mentioned. What I do not see many of are frigates and Field command (abso's etc). (or is that fleet command - anyway - the ones that are more dps). When you do not see a whole class of ship it is because economically they are not viable to their role. Dictors are the t2 version of detroyers yet we see them quite a bit in small gangs and fleets. They are frail for sure but in fleets they get replaced because it was worth it to bubble 30 of their RR BS while you sniped at them killing 20 of them. And in small gang roams we can gank the victim allowing them to get out. We do not see destroyers because, as many of the above posters are articulating in one for or another, they are not vialbe for their role. Outfitting them puts them in the cruiser class yet they die quickly. They die more quickly then firgates even. Something is wrong with them. They are just not used in their role. I think a couple things to do would be to: 1) - get this - lose two of their turret (high) slots but get rid of the ROF penalty. Effect: DPS is about the same but ship costs less to outfit. Maybe adjust dps bonus a tad if necessary one way or the other. If anything should be a mild boost overall with a cost reduction. 2) Either a) a slight sig adjustment down or b) a little more base armor/shield/hull. Effect: These are both areas which can be tweaked in a very precise manner allowing ccp to tweak in more survivability. Like the OP says - not trying to make cruisers here, but a little more survivability seems in order. Then we can look at field command ships. An extra 120 mil for a BC because why exactly??? Again another ship we do not see often because they are not ECONOMICALLY VIABLE for their role.
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:29:00 - [80] Just give them HP closer to that of a Cruiser. Without the PG or Slots its not like they will be able to out tank a larger hull, perhaps 1 more slot on each? Might be too much but +1 Mid on the Coercer and Thrasher and +1 low on the Cormorant and Catalyst would be nice. That should let Cruisers still kick them around, and allow them to spank frigates while not instantly exploding to everything. Just a lot of things =)

Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:53:00 - [81] orly? they have their uses but biggest reason why I wouldn't bring a destroyer more than one time out of a thousand is because their completely lack tankability.
Antoine Lefevre Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:04:00 - [82] Originally by: P'uck I can agree on the warpspeed thingie - but I guess that's it. This. I fly mostly destroyers are they are awesome already. Learn to use the optimal, tracking and alpha that destroyers rock at.
NeoTheo Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:21:00 - [83] id like to see destroyers get slightly better fittings, and slightly better slot layouts, tbh, dictors shouldnt even be in the arguement, i tend to bang a web , bubble blower, mwd / cloak on mine and dont bother fitting anythying else.


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