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Sashman Cole	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:25:00 - [61] Originally by: Davien Thule Warp to 0. For the rest of you care bears it was your finest moment in this game. To all of you newbies who're just beginning I don't expect you to understand. The finest moment in this game is the fact that ever more people play it, which means more interaction, more possibilities and a bigger market. With any expansion in player numbers attitudes change as well and there's no going back from that. I happen to think a bigger, busier Eve is a far nicer place to play in, even if the odd compromise gets made along the way. When I started back in 2004 large swathes of the Eve were still empty, the market (in large chunks of Eve) was in the tank, tech 2 cost a bazillion isk and jumping 18 systems to get something to market was a pain in the a**. Gatecamping, suicide ganking, perma-deccing alliances, serial war dec'cing and indeed the three ring circus that is grief play isn't and never will be PvP in any game and the majority of the player base saw through the excuses and rightly condemned it. Can you move onto something constructive? Hugs and Kisses from a carebear.
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:28:00 - [62] Look, before warp to zero, there were instas. People would have 1000+ bookmarks, which, when they warped to 15, would land them right on the gate. Warp to zero changed nothing but the amount of bookmark lag the game generated. I made Instas. but the Instas I made, allowed me to evade gate camps, travel quickly through 0.0, and even put a few people on a killboard.
Drykor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:31:00 - [63] So you're killing a few less noobs that didn't have insta's now. I don't see the big issue here. The way it is now you can still catch most cruisers and everything above with a semi-decent gatecamp.
Kaar coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [64] No actually it was jump bridges. ---
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [65] Originally by: Joe Only thing that ruins PVP is FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Prepare for Falcon nurf, then ishtar nerf, then maybe a nice rupture nurf. Bland pvp without variety is the only inevitable outcome of FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Variety was lost to time. Everyone knows the Falcon is the best Jam boat out there. No need to use any other jam boat. Use the falcon. The learning curve doesn't apply to most of EvE. We know what to use for every job and we know not to use other ships to replace those that were made to do specific things. You can't convince me to take my Geddon out to engage the 6 AF's. I know better. I agree, there is going to be a Falcon nerf. It's unfortunate. I can't fly a falcon. On any of my chars. They freak me out though. I'm not stupid enough to try and engage a 2 Falcon roaming gang but it's an element that I appreciate in EvE. Knowing I can get my ass kicked by one ship. I'm sure there is a guy out there in some ship that doesn't want to see me in an Abaddon or you in a Raven. It's all great but it got old as we did. I don't know what the answer is.. I do know it's becoming a problem. Eve is built on Vets. They will leave as the game loses that element of unknowing.
Eva midgard Caldari the undivided Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:49:00 - [66] Originally by: Ocih Originally by: Joe Only thing that ruins PVP is FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Prepare for Falcon nurf, then ishtar nerf, then maybe a nice rupture nurf. Bland pvp without variety is the only inevitable outcome of FOTM sheep combined with forum whiners. Variety was lost to time. Everyone knows the Falcon is the best Jam boat out there. No need to use any other jam boat. Use the falcon. The learning curve doesn't apply to most of EvE. We know what to use for every job and we know not to use other ships to replace those that were made to do specific things. You can't convince me to take my Geddon out to engage the 6 AF's. I know better. I agree, there is going to be a Falcon nerf. It's unfortunate. I can't fly a falcon. On any of my chars. They freak me out though. I'm not stupid enough to try and engage a 2 Falcon roaming gang but it's an element that I appreciate in EvE. Knowing I can get my ass kicked by one ship. I'm sure there is a guy out there in some ship that doesn't want to see me in an Abaddon or you in a Raven. It's all great but it got old as we did. I don't know what the answer is.. I do know it's becoming a problem. Eve is built on Vets. They will leave as the game loses that element of unknowing. I have been here for almost 5 years and anyone else who has been here that long knows that that some patches are good some are bad i just worry that they will go to far with the nerfing and kill this game i love so much I don't fly a falcon atm but i don't think they should be nerfed i think eccm should be boosted RIVUR'TAMS alt
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:58:00 - [67] Originally by: Drykor So you're killing a few less noobs that didn't have insta's now. I don't see the big issue here. The way it is now you can still catch most cruisers and everything above with a semi-decent gatecamp. Probably 'killing a few noobs' is what the OP thinks PvP is about.
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:04:00 - [68] The piont I made has nothing todo with wether or not falcons are balanced, thats simply what all the FOTM Sheep are jumping in atm, and so the Forum 'warriors' have focused their whines there, after that is Ishtars, then Ruptures. I can't even begin to link every FOTM -> Nerf cycle over the last 6 years; Forum posts have a charatcer limit Bland PVP, your Fate for having no imagination.
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:23:00 - [69] all it really changed to was catching people on the other sdie, of course, for any good loot you had to do that before wtz, since anyone with anything of vaule normally had bms to warp to 0. The bump of agilty up kinda ruined catching ppl on the other side. It made it alot more difficult to pop your enemies.
Par'Gellen Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:24:00 - [70] Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. This!
Lt Angus Caldari End Game. The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: Apoctasy Gatecamping isn't pvp. This! ITT lots of people who dont even know what pvp stands for Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:44:00 - [72] We could use a "Warp Tunnel Breacher" module that simply makes people come out of warp 15 km earlier than normal but doesnt stop warping or do anything else.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:47:00 - [73] Not 'PvP' but Piracy took a huge hit with WTZ, and Low-sec became a joke. I hated the change Only time I been caught since then in low-sec was to Smartbombing Battleships It's nice that my freighter dosen't take 5 mins per gate though... - Infectious -
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Ticondrius Edited by: Ticondrius on 27/01/2009 04:07:55 Before instas trading got popular, I used to make my own. Got really good at it. Guess what? Instas ruined your Gate Camping fun LONG before WT0 ever landed. All you got to kill then were autopiloting idiots and noobs. I remember CLEARLY gate campers begging for CCP to make bookmarks impossible to make within the same grid as a gate, because it made it so hard to engage targets. qft ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:11:00 - [75] Originally by: Davien Thule Originally by: Ocih I learned some of my most valuable lessons setting up bookmark runs. One as pointed out, gate camping is not PvP. Using noob alts to make the 30 km run to set up a gate BM, I got to see just how spaced out these people are. A good many times, they would pop the same Velator 50, 60 times knowing it was an Alpha clone and with a local respawn. Like mindless animals, they would warp in and pop the Velator over and over. It was really rather tragic to watch. Then they would get ****ed at me and smack in local because I kept coming back and 'made' them kill me, over and over like mindless animals.. So you're speaking for yourself or are you speaking out of your ass? I'm guessing Ocih is one of those ppl who thinks minerals he mines himself are free. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:47:00 - [76] The reason instas were great compared to WTZ was from time to time, usually when you were running in an indy from an inty gang, you'd find out you had a bat bookmark... The worst I've seen WTZ do is land you 500m from jump range. It needs to be more of a "warp to just about zero", with the possibility of landing as much as 5km out, though mostly it'll get you right on top. Risk and all that jazz, y'know? One client: Three Screens!
Liz Laser	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:53:00 - [77] PvP is alive and well. Ganking, on the other hand... no one will miss it. PvP is out there, baby. And not that hard to find. I'm a miner/hauler and our fleet got bounced in low sec on Saturday. Everyone that WANTED combat got it. Because we outnumbered the pirates, the miners and haulers were ignored. My only regret is that because we STARTED the fight (hey man, don't even look at our rocks) the miners and haulers couldn't dock to grab warships too. --- SAK: The Industrial Revolution has BEGUN!
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Jukhta Mein Gate camping is not PVP. This. Its boring for both sides until: 1) Another gang tries to break the gatecamp 2) One of the poor sods who is gonna die tries to take you with him.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:03:00 - [79] Why is all the PvP is dead topics about gate camping, and functions that effect said gate camping. If people would get the heck away from stations and gate camping there just might be more pvp for all. However risk mitigation for the gate camper, station tanker seems to outweigh actually engaging in said PvP. PvP is alive and well, there would be more of it but to many people seem to think killing haulers is pvp. Also gate camping is more boring than mining seriously why do people do this.
Liz Laser	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Tellenta Also gate camping is more boring than mining seriously why do people do this. I can only offer one reasonable explanation. Someone is assigned to monitor a gate while his fleetmates engage in another operation. At that point, if he can tank the sentry guns, he might as well scan everything that passes by. But I doubt that 95% of gatecamping has anything to do with reasonable behavior.
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:27:00 - [81] ofc gate camp is not pvp is called gate camp so is gate camp geez the thing is WTZ made a huge hole in this "pvp world" and this hole is still there(some of you can say the hole is bigger) how you deal whit it ? how you fill this hole ? you can argue all the damn day about things but the fact is small gang pvp and solo pvp are death . . .
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:38:00 - [82] When warp to zero wasn't around, gates could be bookmarked to warp onto at zero annyway. So what the hell is the OP's point exactly? Did he prefer it when only he and his friends were exploiting this loophole and killing all the unwary fodder?
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:38:00 - [83] I don't know why the OP is complaining. WTZ was possible with bookmarks before, and I could always avoid gatecamps in places that I had already visited. This just gives good pirates a bad name, as a good pirate can hunt you down. I am not impressed when my single ship is destroyed by a gatecamp of 5-10 ships, but I AM impressed by someone who can hunt me down despite all my evasion tactics. A hard earned win is all the more satisfying, too. What the OP wants is to get easy kills with minimal effort. CCP have taken the right path with this. it has become easier to avoid gatecamps, due to alignment and speed changes, but this helps entice people out into lowsec and nullsec, where they would have been too wary of gatecamping before. And more people in those areas means more potential targets. Yes, it may be difficult to nail one, but if it is too easy to get kills, then why are you even playing? Where is the challenge? As with the Falcons, I don't think they should be diminished in their role, but they do need to be on a level setting to their contemporaries, like the Arazu. The fact that the massive majority of Force Recons are Falcons does suggest an unbalanced ship, so they need to be brought in line. As someone else stated, it would also be useful to boost ECCM as well. This is why I refer to these changes as 'balancing', rather than 'nerfs'. When something unbalances the game and becomes too powerful in it's role, it becomes detrimental to the game because everyone starts using exactly the same tactics. If they are balanced, you can have ECM heavy fleets meeting Tracking Disruptor fleets, leading to more 'thrust and parry' type combat, and much more unpredictable encounters. At the moment, everyone forms a fleet with the express purpose of taking out the Falcons first. This just becomes a 'gunslinging match' rather than debating what kind of electronic warfare to use, and run the risk of being caught out if specialising too much in one discipline.
Zyck KDS Navy	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:53:00 - [84] Weird, I'm a PvPer and EvE Online isn't ruined for me. Misleading title tbh. Oh, and if you consider gatecamping to be PvP, you're not much above the average carebear. -Zyck
Synex Gallente Oursulaert Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:20:00 - [85] WT0 makes my Freighter a LOT better.
Ana Vyr Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:41:00 - [86] I would imagine that a lot of real PvP players must hate gate campers. All gate camping does is totally discourage carebear players from ever bothering to even try it out. Worked on me. I figure I'll eventually get around to it after I can afford to lose a lot of ships and get enough skills built up to the point where I can last perhaps more than 10 seconds in PvP. The classic thing is that the PvP players will tell you: "dude, we need newb pilots to run tackle ships and so on...get out here and get involved." That begins to sounds like just another scam after you lose enough ships on gates into lowsec. Ah well, I'll be skilled into a covert ops in a couple more weeks, perhaps then I can finaly go see the sights in lowsec/nullsec.
Il Morte	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:00:00 - [87] What ruined pvp is all the whining carebears. That is what ruined it. This ship is too powerful, this ship is too fast, this ship won't let me target lock. I get camped, I attacked them in thier system so now they blobbed me, they can see me on local and no I am gonna kill them, my history shows how old I am, wha wha wha. next thing you will say what is killing pvp is blue standings. You should not be able to see if someone is an ally or mate you should just know that and if you dont kil them.
Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:11:00 - [88] WTZ didn't break eve. Tho it did make things alot more boring. The universe got ALOT smaller, blobs got faster (and thus more common) and eve got alot safer (wich is a bad thing). It lessened the advantage for systems local inhabitants even though instas was a pain in themselves. Instas were a poor excuse to enforce WTZ. Increasing the warpscattering from 2 (or is it 4?) to 15km would fix both issues at once (though some kind of special treatment would be needed for stations to prevent horrible bumps). Warpscattering should be 20km by default (on all axis) and could be lessened by skills and gangbonuses. Very large fleets should increase the scattering (to discourage too large blobs) and so forth. /for the lazy, WTZ is a bad thing mmkay? There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
Vall Kor Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:16:00 - [89] I really wish CCP would increase the damage on gate/station guns so if would be impossible to tank them. That'll fix those campers
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Thargat Warpscattering should be 20km by default (on all axis) and could be lessened by skills and gangbonuses. Careful. A skill like that becomes an essential skill for all players, and only serves as a time-sink, because having it at IV is not good enough, because you miss the gate, aren't close enough to tackle, etc. slowing up your gang's travel and effectiveness. Yes. Yes, I am.

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