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The reason why the "new player experience" is WORSE in M10

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Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:17:00 - [31] CCP should bite the bullet while the rabbles out over attribute respec and just remove the learning skills and give all existing players +10 and give newbies the extra points to assign to attributes.
permion	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran CCP should bite the bullet while the rabbles out over attribute respec and just remove the learning skills and give all existing players +10 and give newbies the extra points to assign to attributes. Give people the 2X learning speed buff for the number of SP they've invested into learning skills + 10%.
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:18:00 - [33] Hey look, proof I'm not your alt! I completely and utterly disagree. Having started (not this character, obviously) before Revelations I remember beginning the game with 50,000 SP, no ISK and no clue. No firehose of ISK from salvaging either. I didn't know Gallente could be rolled with 250,000 SP at the time and didn't care. And you know what? It made the game FAR more fun than being handed effectively a month old character someone else developed out of the gate. I got to experiment, prioritize, analyze and minmax to my heart's content. And at the end of the day it didn't matter much anyway. Training an alt to 1.6M SP first thing -- absolutely correct. For a new player? Absolutely NOT! They'll have to make the ISK for implants and advanced skillbooks, and for that they'll need combat skills. As far as '3' and '4' stat characters -- well, new players can't earn t2 BPOs, guardian vexors or dozens of other cool things the oldbies have. Consider it a perk for having joined the game earlier.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Concorduck so, can you double the stuff you were about to send me to twice the former starter stuff value? Well, two times zero is still zero, so yeah, sure, why not awh, sorry, my bad. i thought you were leaving. Nevermind then
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:21:00 - [35] Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2009 00:25:29 Originally by: Clair Bear Having started (not this character, obviously) before Revelations I remember beginning the game with 50,000 SP, no ISK and no clue. No firehose of ISK from salvaging either. I didn't know Gallente could be rolled with 250,000 SP at the time and didn't care. Hey, I started back in the day with 120k SP myself (caldari frigate 4 FTW, military school - that same starter style was available for all races by the way) when I could have started with slightly under 300k SP (science 5 FTL)... Originally by: Clair Bear Training an alt to 1.6M SP first thing -- absolutely correct. For a new player? Absolutely NOT! They'll have to make the ISK for implants and advanced skillbooks, and for that they'll need combat skills. Or sell a single PLEX out of two, apply the other... and have more ISK than they know what to do with Originally by: Concorduck awh, sorry, my bad. i thought you were leaving. Nevermind then How's "new players in M10 will have it worse SP-wise than new players now" a sign of me wanting to leave ? Last time I checked, I was over 48m SP
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: MotherMoon [...]honestly advanced learning skills should be REMOVED from the game[...] Or, just give all starter characters L4 in all 11 learning skills (61+53)*45255 = 950,355 SP Since training any of them to L5 would entail a year to a "break-even" point, actually training them early on would be nearly pointless. Of course, give all characters the same skills at those levels, if they don't already have them, and set an EVE-wide double-speed bonus for the non-granted SP equivalent, so everybody is happy and doesn't feel cheated. THEN you can remove all traces of them from the markets and hangars (with ISK compensation in case they are removed from players' posession - also, grant 4.5 mil ISK to the wallets of characters for each advanced learning skills already trained). anything please. for anyone with a good IQ, they know older players crawl at gaining levels. I don't want eve to be about levels. I want it to be about PvP and PVE. "Yes that's right, I want eve to have good PvE. If they take away or just give new players these skills (through some sort of chall... oh I got a good idea. anywaqys my point is, it takes me 1 month to gain 3% more damage. sure this is sort of important but not really. New players should be gaining new skills and catching p to me during that time, not training skills that will les them start to catch up maybe some day when they are done 4 months later. I saw kill them, kill them with fire! oh but yeah good idea, make learning skills goals for new players. have a set of epic mission arcs, or somethign that give out advanced earning skill levels as rewards.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:33:00 - [37] Originally by: Clair Bear Hey look, proof I'm not your alt! I completely and utterly disagree. Having started (not this character, obviously) before Revelations I remember beginning the game with 50,000 SP, no ISK and no clue. No firehose of ISK from salvaging either. I didn't know Gallente could be rolled with 250,000 SP at the time and didn't care. And you know what? It made the game FAR more fun than being handed effectively a month old character someone else developed out of the gate. I got to experiment, prioritize, analyze and minmax to my heart's content. And at the end of the day it didn't matter much anyway. Training an alt to 1.6M SP first thing -- absolutely correct. For a new player? Absolutely NOT! They'll have to make the ISK for implants and advanced skillbooks, and for that they'll need combat skills. As far as '3' and '4' stat characters -- well, new players can't earn t2 BPOs, guardian vexors or dozens of other cool things the oldbies have. Consider it a perk for having joined the game earlier. right! removing advanded learning skills would mean 25 million less isk they have to spend on BULL****. eve should NOT be about levels. but levels should help. learning skills take away from what eve means :(
Pestilent Industries	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:38:00 - [38] OP is right. I wasn't going to bother saying anything, as I don't give a care about CCP or them retaining thier new players, but starting off in this game with no skills is pretty lol. Typical CCP if you ask me, great intentions, terrible execution. Sorry CCP, I love you and all, but it is true, this is a terrible decision, but of course you will ignore me, so yeah, as I said, I don't care.
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:40:00 - [39] Originally by: MotherMoon right! removing advanded learning skills would mean 25 million less isk they have to spend on BULL****. eve should NOT be about levels. but levels should help. learning skills take away from what eve means :( Eve is also about tradeoffs and decisions. My first character played nearly a year with 4/3 learnings because to me actually useful skills were more important. Surprise, I didn't keel over dead because of "learning skill violations". I'm no fan however of removing base attribute sets that were possible, especially if they are better than anything that gets offered in return. Also, with the 800k starterchars and a bit of support from older players / help channels / a nice corp, you could fly a quite useful tackler within literally a day. No amount of accelerated training can compensate for that.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:40:00 - [40] confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:40:00 - [41] maybe if they released some dev blogs ... before putting it out for testing... or at least a dev made a quick "this is what is what"
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:43:00 - [42] Originally by: Armoured C confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold I'm still me, and it would be REALLY awkward for me to even HAVE "that time of the month" _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:43:00 - [43] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Armoured C confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold I'm still me, and it would be REALLY awkward for me to even HAVE "that time of the month" Phone bills sure are painfull ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Cat o'Ninetails Rancer Defence Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:45:00 - [44] i want more skills though
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Armoured C confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold I'm still me, and it would be REALLY awkward for me to even HAVE "that time of the month" Phone bills sure are painfull O_O what even i am confused with that ... i couldnt even make up drivel to even pretend as if i knew what you were talking about This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Concorduck Phone bills sure are painfull Well-intentioned game design decision (that backfire) made by "future-myopic" developers even more so _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:50:00 - [47] pimp slap.. get back in your cave /me grabs cane let roll
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.10 01:09:00 - [48] I too am in favor of the 'old' 800-900k sp NPE instead of the 'new' 2x rewards and letting noobs train dumb skills that they might regret later. But I'm also in favor of a tutorial mission where the new player gets blown up so maybe I'm a little nuts. Akita T needs an editor or something, that OP is pretty rambling and jumps from topic to topic. Focus man, focus.
Graisse	Posted - 2009.02.10 01:19:00 - [49] CCP is gonna sell 2x accelerated skill learning packs using the new redeem system. For sho :l
Drixil Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.10 02:50:00 - [50] Edited by: Drixil on 10/02/2009 02:52:33 Originally by: Vaal Erit But I'm also in favor of a tutorial mission where the new player gets blown up so maybe I'm a little nuts. . Hey, me too! I'm just a noob myself, but I think having a tutorial mission that blows up the new player would drastically decrease the trauma experienced by said player the 1st time they get podded in lowsec...

Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.10 02:59:00 - [51] Edited by: Rondo Gunn on 10/02/2009 03:02:19 Originally by: Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr Akita is a breed of dog... They are a great one too. But what does this have to do with the topic? Edit: No Drix, it's the pain and mental anguish of the first podding that makes the tear's sweeter. I'm all for coddling the nub and telling them they are safe wherever they roam. Sweet nub tears...so...sweet.... ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
Malthros Zenobia Cadian Special Operations Command	Posted - 2009.02.10 03:22:00 - [52] Akita, I don't think you 'get' EVE, still. Having character attributes be uniform is good. Why? Because this isn't a game of fairies and dragons. The idea that one empire would have more charismatic, or smarter, or more determined... whatever, is absurd. That's like saying americans, europeans, and asians don't have the same limitations and abilities. Being able to pick skills to train sounds fine to me. You mention needing skillbooks, but have you done the NPE? Are you telling me after going through it there no skills, money, or any indication given to help new players? I find this hard to believe. You're acting like they simply deleted the tutorial, removed Aura, and are throwing new players into an game without any helping hand. Sorry, but I think you're either leaving something out, or looked at character creation and don't like it and are basing everything off of that. NPE is more than character creation and skill assignment. Hell as a new player I'd have preferred double SP up to 1.6m over 800k (or the 15k I started with, as I didn't learn about the caldari frig 4 thing until I was at 98k sp and finished with the tutorial and enjoying myself). You claim it'll take longer but any player that looks into how the game works, or has/makes a friend that knows the game, is going to end up being able to do plenty in a very short period. Until you've gone through everything, stop with your half-empty doom and gloom.
Mal Plox The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.02.10 03:35:00 - [53] We want 60k SP! if the lowest clone stays at what it is, i can now train cyno alts on every account and not ever worry about them getting podded. ---
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.02.10 03:58:00 - [54] Just chiming in to say that alot of the changes slated to be made will really take alot of the individuality of attributes and marginalize their effect. Allowing everyone a free respec every 6mo's? Seems like you're losing identity and uniqueness of EVE, moreso than any flexibility. As for getting less skills but faster training time, it seem as if CCP realized that starting everyone off with Gunnery 5 was stupid, but speeding everyone up through the first month is also silly. What needs to be done is a realization that EVE is now a very old game. When a persistent game gets to be a certain age, I think you really have to concede a point and give newbies a bit of an advantage over what older players had to start wtih. The perfect advantage was giving them high levels in basic skills and enabling them to hop into t2 smalls and inty's quickly. Adding some artificial speed to training time is needless when the current system works. ----------------- Friends Forever
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.10 04:07:00 - [55] I agree. CCP dropped the ball. Somethings they did right. But others they did absolutely wrong. Whichever dev thought of this should have his coffee privileges revoked :-)
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:17:00 - [56] All I wanna know is, can I still get a toon out of the cooker with frig V?
Mr Discord Viziam	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:37:00 - [57] Originally by: Akita T All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience. You think we can all agree? Akita, allow me to introduce The Eve Community. Eve Community, this is Akita. ...seriously though I'm not convinced this is any worse than how it is currently. I see the new system as being more like making a totally custom character in a D&D game (video game that is) as opposed to picking a preset build, which is more like the old system. I think most people prefer the more custom option.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:42:00 - [58] Quote: Having character attributes be uniform is good\ well now, someone can't read the op. the issue here is simple. you get 1.6 million sp at a faster rate. if you train ANYTHING but learning, you are wasting it.
Ma'kal Caldari SUNDERING Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.02.10 05:46:00 - [59] Originally by: Leaving Eve Hi, if anyone needs me, just bell me. I <3 Leaving Eve
OffBeaT Caldari LEGI0N	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:04:00 - [60] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst. brilliant. Honestly eve could change completly, as long as my real loss PvP is around I wouldn't care if all players got all skills in the game. I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills. what kind of freaked out Mohawk planet are you on huh? you think players can fight with 60mil-120mil implants in there head even with clones.. time put in is skill in the game fool! you think this will fill up 00 space or will they hug empire to keep there implants? you wont real risk like you go on about then you play like me and never use a jump clone your hole eve game. then live in low sec or 00 systems you are hunted in 24/7.. without blob warriors to gang with. this must be a blob warrior talking here! yes, give the nobs a BRAKE, but don't cheap what we have all done to get where we all are. i say drop all higher learning skill for time earned skills that work with time put into the game based on what skills you use the most as a player.. you wona make players different in a real way that's the way to go! if i am a pvper i wont a 6th lvl skill on top of my lvl 5 maxed skill so i fly a raven all day i rack up say 5000hrs i get a lvl 6 rank on my ship and so on with other skills that are maxed out that get used after they have been maxed out. that chick has got a point to what she is saying!



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