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The reason why the "new player experience" is WORSE in M10

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Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Kendrix Arathan I didn't understand any of that Originally by: Akita T you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, and I think that sentence is eating it's self... I think the starting SP should still be one or at least a half mil SP, and then 200% training speed up to 2-3mil. I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here!
Fire Ants The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:14:00 - [62] Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:14:51 I'm going to say this in every thread I encounter on this topic: If your enjoyment of EVE is so fragile that it can be shattered by the possibility of a new player having as many skillpoints as you do, then I submit that you don't really enjoy playing the game and are only interested in an endless series of victories. Hell, you should be rejoicing at the abundance of worthy opponents. And don't give me that "I worked hard to get where I am today" horsesht. If EVE is work* for you, then you're doing it wrong. If you really want to take something that seriously, do yourself a favor and invest that energy in your RL ambitions. This is EVE Online, not a congressional hearing. ----- Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business. -----
OffBeaT Caldari LEGI0N	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:24:00 - [63] Originally by: Fire Ants Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:14:51 I'm going to say this in every thread I encounter on this topic: If your enjoyment of EVE is so fragile that it can be shattered by the possibility of a new player having as many skillpoints as you do, then I submit that you don't really enjoy playing the game and are only interested in an endless series of victories. Hell, you should be rejoicing at the abundance of worthy opponents. And don't give me that "I worked hard to get where I am today" horsesht. If EVE is work* for you, then you're doing it wrong. If you really want to take something that seriously, do yourself a favor and invest that energy in your RL ambitions. This is EVE Online, not a congressional hearing. its not about skill points its about putting your history into the game.. you didnt buy your guy did you!
Fire Ants The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:30:00 - [64] Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:31:09 Originally by: OffBeaT its not about skill points its about putting your history into the game.. you didnt buy your guy did you! Buy? He's a month old. Quite the opposite, in fact: I recently terminated a 14m SP character due to a combination of high Charisma, skilltree ADD and a fantastically stupid name. But it actually helped me enjoy the game more, now that I know what I'm doing. What significance does your character's history have other than to impress other players? I think a lot of you are approaching this the wrong way, as though EVE is all about doing stuff you hate only to work your way up to stuff you hate less. That sounds excruciating. ----- Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business. -----
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 06:34:00 - [65] Originally by: OffBeaT Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst. brilliant. Honestly eve could change completly, as long as my real loss PvP is around I wouldn't care if all players got all skills in the game. I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills. what kind of freaked out Mohawk planet are you on huh? you think players can fight with 60mil-120mil implants in there head even with clones.. time put in is skill in the game fool! you think this will fill up 00 space or will they hug empire to keep there implants? you wont real risk like you go on about then you play like me and never use a jump clone your hole eve game. then live in low sec or 00 systems you are hunted in 24/7.. without blob warriors to gang with. this must be a blob warrior talking here! yes, give the nobs a BRAKE, but don't cheap what we have all done to get where we all are. i say drop all higher learning skill for time earned skills that work with time put into the game based on what skills you use the most as a player.. you wona make players different in a real way that's the way to go! if i am a pvper i wont a 6th lvl skill on top of my lvl 5 maxed skill so i fly a raven all day i rack up say 5000hrs i get a lvl 6 rank on my ship and so on with other skills that are maxed out that get used after they have been maxed out. that chick has got a point to what she is saying! you mised it didn't you. all +5 are replaced with +10 prices are the same. scale down. now you could fly around in+5 and only be risking maybe 3 million isk. I agree with anything that removed advanced learning skills, the whole double sp gain rate has made it impossible to train anything else. it's terribly broken.
OffBeaT Caldari LEGI0N	Posted - 2009.02.10 07:20:00 - [66] Originally by: Fire Ants Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:31:09 Originally by: OffBeaT its not about skill points its about putting your history into the game.. you didnt buy your guy did you! Buy? He's a month old. Quite the opposite, in fact: I recently terminated a 14m SP character due to a combination of high Charisma, skilltree ADD and a fantastically stupid name. But it actually helped me enjoy the game more, now that I know what I'm doing. What significance does your character's history have other than to impress other players? I think a lot of you are approaching this the wrong way, as though EVE is all about doing stuff you hate only to work your way up to stuff you hate less. That sounds excruciating. know one said i don't enjoy the game, if i didn't like the game i wouldn't be here. second i don't really think you know what loss is in this game yet and what grind is about in eve. now if eve ever becomes joy joy fluff game like you see it im out of here. i like my games tough. as for what significance your character's history have.. well ill tell you! yea, i don't own cva/goon/bob but i know how bob began & what they where before bob i know pie/cva and know how they began, i flew though moo space in the days when they began and where. i saw some of the early alliance in prov & surrounding space when they began to scout out that turf. i am a member as are others of one of the oldest pirate corps in the game as i was a member of soul cartel in the days of real stand up combat. the soul channel is still there with old school & newer members who still have a bond of them old days & what soul cartel was when we where our own thing. i say we can be again! as for who i am in eve i tell you i am a stand up player who believes i can.. i don't back down & i am loyal to my turf.. know one in eve will say i am not a stand up fighter in eve or loyal to the people i have sided with.
Fire Ants The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2009.02.10 07:34:00 - [67] Originally by: OffBeaT i don't really think you know what loss is in this game yet and what grind is about in eve. now if eve ever becomes joy joy fluff game like you see it im out of here. i like my games tough. Well, I am pretty familiar with loss and grinding. I've played on and off since 2005; this is just a new character. I've lost some pretty expensive stuff in the past, but the long and complicated process of regaining what I'd lost was plenty of fun in its own right, so the actual loss - no matter how financially significant - was never enough to diminish my enjoyment of the game. I wouldn't be playing EVE if it were easy either. Overcoming challenges is what makes it fun. But I don't really see how allowing new players to train up a bit faster is going to make the game easy; the learning curve will always be a vertical line and no amount of SP will compensate for inexperience. It would take a colossal blunder far beyond anything we've ever seen for EVE to become literally easy. Originally by: OffBeaT as for what significance your character's history have.. well ill tell you! yea, i don't own cva/goon/bob but i know how bob began & what they where before bob i know pie/cva and know how they began, i flew though moo space in the days when they began and where. i saw some of the early alliance in prov & surrounding space when they began to scout out that turf. i am a member as are others of one of the oldest pirate corps in the game as i was a member of soul cartel in the days of real stand up combat. the soul channel is still there with old school & newer members who still have a bond of them old days & what soul cartel was when we where our own thing. i say we can be again! as for who i am in eve i tell you i am a stand up player who believes i can.. i don't back down & i am loyal to my turf.. know one in eve will say i am not a stand up fighter in eve or loyal to the people i have sided with. That may be true, but it seems to me that the bond you're talking about - which I'm sure is a strong one and absolutely worthwhile - exists primarily outside of the game, with your character acting only as a face you present to your friends. Surely the bond would be the same if you were playing on an alt or - god forbid - a new main altogether like myself? The employment history of your character isn't nearly as important as the employment history of you, personally, as a player. This character may be new, but I can think of plenty of players in Noob Mercs and Aurora Acclivitous who'd recognize me all the same. +10 karma to you for an articulate and passionate post. ----- Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business. -----
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 12:44:00 - [68] Originally by: Fire Ants [...]If your enjoyment of EVE is so fragile that it can be shattered by the possibility of a new player having as many skillpoints as you do, then I submit that you don't really enjoy playing the game and are only interested in an endless series of victories. Hell, you should be rejoicing at the abundance of worthy opponents.[...] So... is that something in support of the issue(s) presented in the OP, or against it ? Because, from my viewpoint at least, the upcoming system gets new players worse off, therefore LESS worthy opponents... it's a step BACK from the current starter point (SP-wise).
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:10:00 - [69] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/02/2009 13:10:06 There was a psychology experiment done a few years ago. One group of people were given ú5 and told to go on their way. Group two were given ú10 but then told to give ú5 back. Both groups went home with ú5, but the first group were happy and the second group were miserable. Giving new players a training speed boost and taking it away is treating them like the second group.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:16:00 - [70] Originally by: Vaal Erit I too am in favor of the 'old' 800-900k sp NPE instead of the 'new' 2x rewards and letting noobs train dumb skills that they might regret later. Don't worry, I'm sure that CCP will allow players to respec their SPs at some point in the future.

StickyFingerz Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:22:00 - [71] good discussion, as per usual tho, wrong forum.
Amaron Ghant Caldari Relentless Storm Cartel FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:34:00 - [72] 60+ million skillpoints here so take my post with a pinch of salt, I may be a tad biased. With every patch and upgrade, CCP dumbs down this beautiful game to encourage greater takeup amongst the intellectually challenged and impatient denizens of cyberspace. From a business point of view this makes perfect sense, more bums on seats and ships in space equals great profit margins. From the perspective of some of the older player base it's annoying as people are getting into ships within weeks that used to take far longer. Others amongst the older players (myself included) bemoan the dumbing down of the game and the loss of uniqueness between races and charactersa, but think what the hell, doesn't really affect me much if at all; been there, done that, bought the Tshirt from the online shop. It just seems to me that eve is moving towards "power levelling", where people are only interested in getting into a particular type of ship in the shortest time possible, or getting a particular skill faster than the mate they joined up with. I hear people saying that thier character is "gimped" or is far behind the curve skill wise. Come on, skillpoints are not the be all and end all of eve. If you fixate on skills, you miss out on what makes this a great game. Slow down and smell the rocket exhaust. My character is gimped. People I started playing this game with have far far more skill points than me, but Amaron and I have been together for a long time now warts and all, and I wouldn't change him even if i could. His warts make him unique, not a cookie cutter pirate, or PvP'r or Industrialist, or Miner. Bottom line(s) I don't like the changes to skill training, I really don't like the proposed attribute point change, and I absolutely detest the doubling of skill training for the first 1.6 mill SP. However you won't hear me jumping up and down about it on the forums , or quitting in disgust, because to be honest, it won't affect my game in the slightest. Maybe the target environment will be slightly richer for a while, but that will be about it.
Sade Onyx	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:37:00 - [73] Originally by: StickyFingerz as per usual tho, wrong forum. Good job your not a Mod then isnt it? - if it was the wrong forum it would have been moved already. So I guess your wrong. Regardless of wether or not this will be a better or worse new player experience, I think everyone can agree that this change defiantly means that every new character should train Learning skills and nothing but. So apart from Race I guess we are seeing the birth of cookie cutter characters.
Marie Duvolle	Posted - 2009.02.10 14:39:00 - [74] I (think I) understand why they changed the system, it's to discourage alt (re)use. I don't have a problem at all with players starting with 60k SP (before all this you started with 8k iirc), so while they obviously try to spin is as something cool it's actually a restriction... on purpose. The only downside being that, yes, it would be smart to train full learning skills the first month but still, that's a CHOICE. If everyone would min-max the whole time we'd all be Achura's, and we're not. So while I understand Akita's warning of "this will advocate 1 month of pure boredom" it is still a choice which some will be willing to make. Again, they are changing is so that fresh alts aren't as useful as they are now. Don't stir the hornet's nest
Writ Insand	Posted - 2009.02.10 15:04:00 - [75] Quote: 60+ million skillpoints here so take my post with a pinch of salt, I may be a tad biased. With every patch and upgrade, CCP dumbs down this beautiful game to encourage greater takeup amongst the intellectually challenged and impatient denizens of cyberspace. Confirming that I, too, am a superior human being because I play an internet spaceship game.
StickyFingerz Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.02.10 15:52:00 - [76] Originally by: Sade Onyx Originally by: StickyFingerz as per usual tho, wrong forum. Good job your not a Mod then isnt it? - if it was the wrong forum it would have been moved already. So I guess your wrong. I guess so, but given the rest of the feedback is going on in the right place i guess i am just a stickler for detail. the right place would be here. It bugs me slightly that Akita knows exactly were this forum is and uses it on a regular basis but when something is "deemed" as more important it ends up here. anyhow - not worth arguing about, its just the the EvE forums are spammed enough as it is. with regard to the main point i am largly in agreement, the tutorial right now sucks, but the starting skills and such are fine - not sure why thats being changed.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.02.10 15:56:00 - [77] someone with 20m+ sp complaining about someone that can train faster for the first weeks is pathetic as he will never catch up, no matter what.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.10 16:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic someone with 20m+ sp complaining about someone that can train faster for the first weeks is pathetic as he will never catch up, no matter what. Except that the people to gain from the changes are those with 20m+ SP, not the new players. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.02.10 16:19:00 - [79] Originally by: MotherMoon I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills. You can take away my implants, but you can never take away my advanced learning skills. Therefore - NO U! My opinion may or may not be shared by my alliance
sirovai Amarr Modern-Warfare	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:06:00 - [80] Attribute respec ftw, keep them in next patch ccp. Thankyou.

Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:14:00 - [81] well i think most of us are forgetting that CCP mentioned the new NPE will award skillbooks from the newbie missions, along with helping them in a career choice. new players very rarely actually power-train all the learning skills anyway, mainly because they can't afford them, and they don't understand them yet. but the current 800k starter sets do provide a few learning skills based on career path. so let's compare new vs old experience for a brand new EVE player... old NPE: start with a bunch of skills you dont understand yet and try to do stuff, train a few new skills for things you are trying to do, etc. new NPE: start with less skills, and ACTUALLY LEARN what all the skills do as you train from the ground up... which is now MUCH EASIER with a QUEUE and faster training speed. result when they reach 1 million SP: the new player is in a much better place, with fewer "useless" skills they don't understand or happened to start with because they didn't fully understand the starting career path they are now stuck with. instead they have skills they chose themselves, that they are more likely to understand and put to good use. as i recall, there were a number of complaints that starting with 800k skips an important "learning phase" for new players, because they can almost immediately jump into cruisers -- which they probably can't afford and would probably lose quickly due to inexperience. with the new system, they will once again have to work their way up and actually learn how to play EVE in frigates as they start out. so overall, i think the newer system will be better for the new players, even though it may take a bit longer to train some of the skills they can currently start with. and when us veteran players make alts, we will power-train them and give them +4 sets, etc, just like we already do. but with the new queue and double training speed, we can do that even faster. so the only complaint is not having a "ready made" alt if one of those 800k prefab skillsets happened to be nearly perfect for whatever we want our alt to do. but overall i think the tradeoff is worth it. also, regarding player diversity -- currently we have a zillion Achuras purely because of the bloodline attributes... but by allowing all the races able to have the same attributes, we can finally have a more even distribution of races. but i do agree that it's lame to enforce a minimum of 5 in one attribute, while currently you can have as low as 3... but would i make that trade-off for being able to switch from int/mem focus to perc/will?? heck yes! having a "balanced" attribute spread is no longer as important since i can train all my science and industry and then switch to combat after 6 months. i just can't wait to see what EVEMON will do regarding attribute optimization for your skill plan ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Concorduck IB Leaving Eve IB Sidrat Flush That's a great site for reminiscing. spell checker in aisle four please. -------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better.
Obento Jones Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:49:00 - [83] Edited by: Obento Jones on 10/02/2009 17:49:28 Sucks even more for those of us that just passed 2 million sp...
Stump Junkman	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:53:00 - [84] I think I'm scared more that this "individual" claims to speak for us.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:09:00 - [85] My hundredth of a cent is as follows. I don't care really. It's all good. If it gets new people in the game then they'll either stay or they'll leave as nature intended. Those that do stay will I'm sure already be good people OR they'll grow in to it and become better people. It's not just about the combat, this is Eve people. The ONLY online game that doesn't shard the player space. No character is an island in this game (unless they turn auto-reject on of course) but even then they MUST be interacting with the market or contracts and thus have some sort of web to the other players. Skill points mean a lot yes, there's no alternative. In order to be effective however, skill points aren't the only aspect that is important. It's about time management (can you say you've never lost skill time? the skill queue may result in fewer hours lost or it may not), it's about people skills and diplomacy. Those are out of game skills that can't be purchased, only YOU can recognize your own "short commings" and either address them or accept them as to the person that you want to be. Actions and deeds in this game are worth more than the ability to fly a pvp fitted ship or lead a fleet in to combat, or a corporation into the unknown. Eve doesn't have a learning curve it has a cliff. A very very high cliff, that demands that you hold on with two hands and very few footholds. Other players are usually willing to offer advice, it's up to you find that good advice as early as possible and accept and follow it, or ignore it and tread your own path. This is Eve Online, and regardless of what character skills you have there will always be a difference between each and every character. (hopefully)
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy Atrocitas	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:15:00 - [86] Originally by: Akita T It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper... I admit I'm surprised that you're not for this Akita. Problem is that it just takes too long for the average person to wait for a lot of this stuff. I'm an impatient dude, so I admit I'm leaning towards the idea, but I am equally surprised that CCP didn't just release tier 3 learning skills before going to this length. I know we don't want things to be 'imba', but I personally don't see anything wrong with this system. =I Then again I have yet to actually try it out myself, or do any of the math on it. =)
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:21:00 - [87] I agree with Akita T on these points. From a technical point of view, the NPE is now much worse for the newbs. About immersion point of view and about the 'feeling' I cannot say anything, wasn't able to test it yet.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:28:00 - [88] Originally by: Gnulpie From a technical point of view, the NPE is now much worse for the newbs. About immersion point of view and about the 'feeling' I cannot say anything, wasn't able to test it yet. Oh, I'm certain that the fast improvement at the beginning will feel mighty nice… …until the new players learn that since the wasted that benefit on random fun stuff rather than on getting the mindnumbingly boring crap out of the way as quickly as possible, and that they are now forever on the back foot compared to those who knew how to min-max the creation process. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Vikura Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:01:00 - [89] So, for me as a Gallente with base charisma of 7 and hitting 2 mil SP in the next few days. These changes will do nothing expect i will be able to drop 2 points from charisma into something else, right? (incase i would be happy with my other attributes) And, new players will start with next to no SP, but learn twice as fast untill you have given ammount of SP? Gunnery and Small racial weapon skill to lvl 5 will take like what? Total of 7-9 days even with double training speed... how is this gonna help new player when you can start now a Soldier with both maxed? Yeah there might be more "trash" SP given currently, but there are still some good stuff. Why not just give X ammount SP that you can customly add to a given skills you want, lets say SP worth of 4 rank 1 skills to lvl 5 (4x 250k)? Sure a new player can mess up the character that way, but at least not as much as currently you can with attributes. Originally by: "Akita T" All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience. Of course, things are a bit too far done and gone to be changed, but in case they're somehow not all that final, take all of the above into consideration. If i did understant right the changes, then yes. New players will be screwed. In terms of fun for the first 2 months or so.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:12:00 - [90] 0nE MiLIOn DOLLaR$ OR WE KIlL YOuR poST CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."



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