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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:22:00 -
[1]
It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper, do away with the confusing bloodline, custom attributes and schools skillset choices.
Then, give eveybody an even start regardless of race, with the least amount of "junk" skills, perfectly balanced attributes and the possibility to tweak them once every 6 months.
That means mostly the same skills for everybody, with very few differences only depending on race, and much less skills overall. To compensate, you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, figuring that it's the same thing overall.
WRONG !
First off, those starter skill packages (especially the special ops and soldier ones) gave new players a good leg into the game, skills which they will mostly want to train anyway.
Not only that, but the skills themselves cost a good deal of ISK, and some current starter skillpacks have impressive equivalent ISK costs for a newbie.
The end effect of this particular choice is that newbies take longer before they can actually do anything, so the "new player experience" is worse than it was very early on.
Second thing, the issue of learning skills.
Hey, I remember a time when I was able to say "NO, DON'T DO ALL LEARINGS FIRST TO HIGH LEVELS, priortize training whatever's necessary to fly a ship halfway decently, only then focus on higher learning levels".
Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage.
End effect, "new player experience", worse again.
Last but not least, the starter atributes and the "respecialisation".
Umm, ok, sure, 8/8/8/8/7cha is a nice enough starter distribution, and I don't really mind all that much, if all of the previous things wouldn't be an issue.
BUT... you will be restricting the minimum attribute value to 5. Hmm, there are plenty of characters that can now start with 3s and 4s in their attributes, any such configurations will be impossible to attain. 9/9/9/9/3cha characters ? HA! Say goodbye to that possibility ! 14 perception 11 willpower character (minnie brutor slavechild) ? Sorry, the best you can do now is 14 per 10 wil or 15 per 9 wil... which I guess is close, but not quite there.
In other words, you are effectively closing down some possibilities for players starting from this moment on.
All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience.
Of course, things are a bit too far done and gone to be changed, but in case they're somehow not all that final, take all of the above into consideration.
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Leaving Eve
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:27:00 -
[2]
Hi, if anyone needs me, just bell me. |
Jana Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:27:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Leaving Eve
Hi, if anyone needs me, just bell me.
I see what you did there. |
flashfreaking
LFC
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:30:00 -
[4]
Im afraid I have to agree here, the man makes some very good and well documented points, altough maybe he can suggest an alternative? |
Kendrix Arathan
Minmatar
N00bs With Guns
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:35:00 -
[5]
I didn't understand any of that
Originally by: Akita T
you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count,
and I think that sentence is eating it's self... |
Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:36:00 -
[6]
i dont really like that they keep increasing the starter skill points with each expansion.
what makes eve different from other mmo's is that it doesnt have a define "endgame" and that the content is so much, that you can be training skills for 5 years and still not running out of possilbe skills to train.
i dont see where this is heading to. make new players rush all the early content ? why ?
when i started i liked my rookie ship and i enjoyed the content i could explore with it. actually, we propably dont even need rookie ships anymore now... how about we let everyone begin with enough skills to instantly fly a battleship ?
it doesnt make any sense to me. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
I didn't understand any of that
Originally by: Akita T
you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count,
and I think that sentence is eating it's self...
In caveman speak:
"you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh".
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Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:38:00 -
[8]
Akita is a breed of dog. Bow wow wow sob bow wow |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:40:00 -
[9]
If anything newbies need a starter package AND a period of bonus skillpoints that they can use to specialize.
The average SP among the pilots trying to "meet and greet" you in 0.0 and low-sec is only rising.
Either that or some sort of time-limited SP bonus to the people buying the new boxed set (since the problem isn't people having low-skill alts but the fact that a new player will have to spend a very large amount of time getting any of their characters up to snuff). |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akita T
It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper, do away with the confusing bloodline, custom attributes and schools skillset choices.
Then, give eveybody an even start regardless of race, with the least amount of "junk" skills, perfectly balanced attributes and the possibility to tweak them once every 6 months.
That means mostly the same skills for everybody, with very few differences only depending on race, and much less skills overall. To compensate, you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, figuring that it's the same thing overall.
WRONG !
First off, those starter skill packages (especially the special ops and soldier ones) gave new players a good leg into the game, skills which they will mostly want to train anyway.
Not only that, but the skills themselves cost a good deal of ISK, and some current starter skillpacks have impressive equivalent ISK costs for a newbie.
The end effect of this particular choice is that newbies take longer before they can actually do anything, so the "new player experience" is worse than it was very early on.
Second thing, the issue of learning skills.
Hey, I remember a time when I was able to say "NO, DON'T DO ALL LEARINGS FIRST TO HIGH LEVELS, priortize training whatever's necessary to fly a ship halfway decently, only then focus on higher learning levels".
Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage.
End effect, "new player experience", worse again.
Last but not least, the starter atributes and the "respecialisation".
Umm, ok, sure, 8/8/8/8/7cha is a nice enough starter distribution, and I don't really mind all that much, if all of the previous things wouldn't be an issue.
BUT... you will be restricting the minimum attribute value to 5. Hmm, there are plenty of characters that can now start with 3s and 4s in their attributes, any such configurations will be impossible to attain. 9/9/9/9/3cha characters ? HA! Say goodbye to that possibility ! 14 perception 11 willpower character (minnie brutor slavechild) ? Sorry, the best you can do now is 14 per 10 wil or 15 per 9 wil... which I guess is close, but not quite there.
In other words, you are effectively closing down some possibilities for players starting from this moment on.
All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience.
Of course, things are a bit too far done and gone to be changed, but in case they're somehow not all that final, take all of the above into consideration.
have you played it yet?
have you?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/02/2009 23:50:40
double post
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:50:00 -
[12]
the older players get an unfair advantage (which they would deserve if you robbed them of 1.2 million sp) of 10 extra atrribute points newer players can never get.
and new players get 3 more points off the bat and and max out learning skills in 2 weeks.
do it CCP, If this is the direction you want to tak eeve, go the whole 5 miles and KILL OFF LEARNING.
This is bull shiiiit
also I don't see why why more than 5 can be unmovable... maybe you should choose your ancestry which gives you a huge boost, and that becomes your base.
ancestry should mean something, even if race shouldn't. maybe the races should be equal but the ancestries should not.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Heroldyn
i dont really like that they keep increasing the starter skill points with each expansion.
lrn2rd.
They are DECREASING them, and giving faster training up to the point where it would be (allegedly) on a break-even point with the older 800k SP starter chars.
Originally by: flashfreaking
Im afraid I have to agree here, the man makes some very good and well documented points, altough maybe he can suggest an alternative?
Eh... something that would not be too far from what they are trying to do ?
Add all L4 basic and all L3 advanced learnings (6*45255 + 5*24000 = 391530 SP) to the current ~60k people start with (so, start with ~450k SP instead of the previous ~810k), keep the "double learning speed" up to 1 mil SP or so only.
New users should basically breeze through the very early phases with ACTUAL training speeds up to 4 times higher on average than current new players, then get turned down to normal speeds sooner rather than later, and overall, they shouldn't get any advantages over people that DID start with learnings (without actually needing to do that).
Of course, the problem still remains that for OPTIMAL long-term results, they should still train learnings, but then again it's not such a critical issue with the "turbo training" set so much shorter.
Respecification minimum attributes conditions changed to :
* sum of lowest three attributes to be 14 or above
* sum of lowest two attributes to be 8 or above
* lowest single attribute to 3 or above
...so that all current starter choices are still possible, and many similar ones get opened up.
Quite frankly, I would have prefered if the ONLY changes would have been the ADDITION of most (if not all) learning skills to all starter school skillpacks.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Genya Arikaido
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
Wall of Text of DoomÖ
TL;DR
Help me move to Iceland!
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.09 23:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MotherMoon
the older players get an unfair advantage (which they would deserve if you robbed them of 1.2 million sp) of 10 extra atrribute points newer players can never get.
and new players get 3 more points off the bat and and max out learning skills in 2 weeks.
do it CCP,
Because giving older players a permanent SP rate advantage over new characters is exactly what this game needs?
"Your average guy roaming 0.0 has a 60 mil SP advantage on you, and it's only going to increase forever and forever"
...that's just silly. Older players already have the advantage that they both have a massive SP advantage AND they've cemented themselves into every established market and profession.
If Advanced training skills are going out they should do so across the board with no advantages given to older players.
Anyone that has had advanced training skills for more than a year has ALREADY gotten back the skillpoints they spent and more.
______________________________________________
-My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:00:00 -
[16]
If Older players aren't flying caps yet, they're gonna be overstomped by 50 merlins. |
Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:02:00 -
[17]
How about setting all the learning skills (except learning) to 5, everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst. Then hide current learning skills and never talk about them again!
Put in some different ones. Perhaps like "Amarr Frigate" +10% faster skilltime per lvl if you are learning one of the following skills: Amarr Frigate, Small Energy Turrets, Small Beam Laser Specialisation or Small Pulse Laser Specialisation.
New player would start with a few ranks in their races Frigate Learning skill. Make a decent starter package or at least put in a strong pointer for new player how and what to skill.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: MotherMoon
the older players get an unfair advantage (which they would deserve if you robbed them of 1.2 million sp) of 10 extra atrribute points newer players can never get.
and new players get 3 more points off the bat and and max out learning skills in 2 weeks.
do it CCP,
Because giving older players a permanent SP rate advantage over new characters is exactly what this game needs?
no it's not what it needs. it need to just take it away, but then what do you give the older players who just lost 600,000 sp? |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: MotherMoon
[...]honestly advanced learning skills should be REMOVED from the game[...]
Or, just give all starter characters L4 in all 11 learning skills (6*1+5*3)*45255 = 950,355 SP
Since training any of them to L5 would entail a year to a "break-even" point, actually training them early on would be nearly pointless.
Of course, give all characters the same skills at those levels, if they don't already have them, and set an EVE-wide double-speed bonus for the non-granted SP equivalent, so everybody is happy and doesn't feel cheated.
THEN you can remove all traces of them from the markets and hangars (with ISK compensation in case they are removed from players' posession - also, grant 4.5 mil ISK to the wallets of characters for each advanced learning skills already trained).
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Kendrix Arathan
Minmatar
N00bs With Guns
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
I didn't understand any of that
Originally by: Akita T
you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count,
and I think that sentence is eating it's self...
In caveman speak:
"you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh".
I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen and then call me a cave man...
I am interested in the new "new player experience" but I will find out about it and discuss it else where as i fear I have already suffered brain damage from trying to read what you type.
also with the amount of nerd rage your putting out i don't want to get caught in the arterial spray when you pop a blood vessel... |
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Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
stuff
Go home, I am the troll in this thread, I got it covered.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente
Stormwatch Galactic
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Concorduck
If Older players aren't flying caps yet, they're gonna be overstomped by 50 merlins.
With civilian guns. |
Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
I didn't understand any of that
Originally by: Akita T
you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count,
and I think that sentence is eating it's self...
In caveman speak:
"you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh".
I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen and then call me a cave man...
I am interested in the new "new player experience" but I will find out about it and discuss it else where as i fear I have already suffered brain damage from trying to read what you type.
also with the amount of nerd rage your putting out i don't want to get caught in the arterial spray when you pop a blood vessel...
IB Leaving Eve |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
Quote:
increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count
I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen
It was gramatically correct (ok, probably missing one "comma" in the middle, but that's about it), also logically correct (double training speed granted to you until you reach a certain SP total which is twice the old starter SP total), so I can't be held responsable for your inability to comprehend it.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst.
brilliant.
Honestly eve could change completly, as long as my real loss PvP is around I wouldn't care if all players got all skills in the game.
I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills.
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permion
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:10:00 -
[26]
Also Aura is utterly gone. Compared to a normal MMO starting interaction/immersion... EvE is almost utterly devoid of it(interaction/immersion) because you need to first learn what's there before you can appreciate it. Aura is probably one of the few things that make it tolerable for quite a few people.
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
Quote:
increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count
I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen
It was gramatically correct (ok, probably missing one "comma" in the middle, but that's about it), also logically correct (double training speed granted to you until you reach a certain SP total which is twice the old starter SP total), so I can't be held responsable for your inability to comprehend it.
so, can you double the stuff you were about to send me to twice the former starter stuff value?
-----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Concorduck
so, can you double the stuff you were about to send me to twice the former starter stuff value?
Well, two times zero is still zero, so yeah, sure, why not 
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Pac SubCom
A.W.M
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:14:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 10/02/2009 00:15:20
Originally by: Akita T
WRONG !
That's right. And we're getting DAMNED FED UP with the negativity of those who are so FULL OF ANXIETIES like you are. SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY! Your logic is worth less than ****.
See things a little more positively. We don't fall for your fears. And neither should you. Breathe.
---------------
∞ TQFE
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pac SubCom
We don't fall for your fears.
Simple math and basic logic = fear ?
Fail !
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
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Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:17:00 -
[31]
CCP should bite the bullet while the rabbles out over attribute respec and just remove the learning skills and give all existing players +10 and give newbies the extra points to assign to attributes. |
permion
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:18:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
CCP should bite the bullet while the rabbles out over attribute respec and just remove the learning skills and give all existing players +10 and give newbies the extra points to assign to attributes.
Give people the 2X learning speed buff for the number of SP they've invested into learning skills + 10%. |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:18:00 -
[33]
Hey look, proof I'm not your alt! I completely and utterly disagree.
Having started (not this character, obviously) before Revelations I remember beginning the game with 50,000 SP, no ISK and no clue. No firehose of ISK from salvaging either. I didn't know Gallente could be rolled with 250,000 SP at the time and didn't care.
And you know what? It made the game FAR more fun than being handed effectively a month old character someone else developed out of the gate. I got to experiment, prioritize, analyze and minmax to my heart's content. And at the end of the day it didn't matter much anyway.
Training an alt to 1.6M SP first thing -- absolutely correct. For a new player? Absolutely NOT! They'll have to make the ISK for implants and advanced skillbooks, and for that they'll need combat skills.
As far as '3' and '4' stat characters -- well, new players can't earn t2 BPOs, guardian vexors or dozens of other cool things the oldbies have. Consider it a perk for having joined the game earlier. |
Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:20:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Concorduck
so, can you double the stuff you were about to send me to twice the former starter stuff value?
Well, two times zero is still zero, so yeah, sure, why not
awh, sorry, my bad.
i thought you were leaving.
Nevermind then |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:21:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Akita T on 10/02/2009 00:25:29
Originally by: Clair Bear
Having started (not this character, obviously) before Revelations I remember beginning the game with 50,000 SP, no ISK and no clue. No firehose of ISK from salvaging either. I didn't know Gallente could be rolled with 250,000 SP at the time and didn't care.
Hey, I started back in the day with 120k SP myself (caldari frigate 4 FTW, military school - that same starter style was available for all races by the way) when I could have started with slightly under 300k SP (science 5 FTL)...
Originally by: Clair Bear
Training an alt to 1.6M SP first thing -- absolutely correct. For a new player? Absolutely NOT! They'll have to make the ISK for implants and advanced skillbooks, and for that they'll need combat skills.
Or sell a single PLEX out of two, apply the other... and have more ISK than they know what to do with 
Originally by: Concorduck
awh, sorry, my bad.
i thought you were leaving.
Nevermind then
How's "new players in M10 will have it worse SP-wise than new players now" a sign of me wanting to leave ?
Last time I checked, I was over 48m SP 
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:31:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: MotherMoon
[...]honestly advanced learning skills should be REMOVED from the game[...]
Or, just give all starter characters L4 in all 11 learning skills (6*1+5*3)*45255 = 950,355 SP
Since training any of them to L5 would entail a year to a "break-even" point, actually training them early on would be nearly pointless.
Of course, give all characters the same skills at those levels, if they don't already have them, and set an EVE-wide double-speed bonus for the non-granted SP equivalent, so everybody is happy and doesn't feel cheated.
THEN you can remove all traces of them from the markets and hangars (with ISK compensation in case they are removed from players' posession - also, grant 4.5 mil ISK to the wallets of characters for each advanced learning skills already trained).
anything please.
for anyone with a good IQ, they know older players crawl at gaining levels. I don't want eve to be about levels. I want it to be about PvP and PVE. "Yes that's right, I want eve to have good PvE. If they take away or just give new players these skills (through some sort of chall... oh I got a good idea.
anywaqys my point is, it takes me 1 month to gain 3% more damage. sure this is sort of important but not really. New players should be gaining new skills and catching p to me during that time, not training skills that will les them start to catch up maybe some day when they are done 4 months later.
I saw kill them, kill them with fire!
oh but yeah good idea, make learning skills goals for new players. have a set of epic mission arcs, or somethign that give out advanced earning skill levels as rewards. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Hey look, proof I'm not your alt! I completely and utterly disagree.
Having started (not this character, obviously) before Revelations I remember beginning the game with 50,000 SP, no ISK and no clue. No firehose of ISK from salvaging either. I didn't know Gallente could be rolled with 250,000 SP at the time and didn't care.
And you know what? It made the game FAR more fun than being handed effectively a month old character someone else developed out of the gate. I got to experiment, prioritize, analyze and minmax to my heart's content. And at the end of the day it didn't matter much anyway.
Training an alt to 1.6M SP first thing -- absolutely correct. For a new player? Absolutely NOT! They'll have to make the ISK for implants and advanced skillbooks, and for that they'll need combat skills.
As far as '3' and '4' stat characters -- well, new players can't earn t2 BPOs, guardian vexors or dozens of other cool things the oldbies have. Consider it a perk for having joined the game earlier.
right! removing advanded learning skills would mean 25 million less isk they have to spend on BULL****.
eve should NOT be about levels. but levels should help.
learning skills take away from what eve means :( |
Pestilent Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:38:00 -
[38]
OP is right. I wasn't going to bother saying anything, as I don't give a care about CCP or them retaining thier new players, but starting off in this game with no skills is pretty lol. Typical CCP if you ask me, great intentions, terrible execution. Sorry CCP, I love you and all, but it is true, this is a terrible decision, but of course you will ignore me, so yeah, as I said, I don't care.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar
Meltd0wn
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: MotherMoon
right! removing advanded learning skills would mean 25 million less isk they have to spend on BULL****.
eve should NOT be about levels. but levels should help.
learning skills take away from what eve means :(
Eve is also about tradeoffs and decisions.
My first character played nearly a year with 4/3 learnings because to me actually useful skills were more important. Surprise, I didn't keel over dead because of "learning skill violations".
I'm no fan however of removing base attribute sets that were possible, especially if they are better than anything that gets offered in return.
Also, with the 800k starterchars and a bit of support from older players / help channels / a nice corp, you could fly a quite useful tackler within literally a day. No amount of accelerated training can compensate for that.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:40:00 -
[40]
confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:40:00 -
[41]
maybe if they released some dev blogs ... before putting it out for testing...
or at least a dev made a quick "this is what is what"
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:43:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Armoured C
confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold
I'm still me, and it would be REALLY awkward for me to even HAVE "that time of the month"
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:43:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Armoured C
confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold
I'm still me, and it would be REALLY awkward for me to even HAVE "that time of the month"
Phone bills sure are painfull
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Originally by: Crumplecorn
Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Cat o'Ninetails
Rancer Defence Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:45:00 -
[44]
i want more skills though
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Concorduck
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Armoured C
confirming either akita is at that time of the month or she has been sold
I'm still me, and it would be REALLY awkward for me to even HAVE "that time of the month"
Phone bills sure are painfull
O_O what even i am confused with that ... i couldnt even make up drivel to even pretend as if i knew what you were talking about
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Concorduck
Phone bills sure are painfull
Well-intentioned game design decision (that backfire) made by "future-myopic" developers even more so
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 00:50:00 -
[47]
pimp slap.. get back in your cave 
/me grabs cane
let roll |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:09:00 -
[48]
I too am in favor of the 'old' 800-900k sp NPE instead of the 'new' 2x rewards and letting noobs train dumb skills that they might regret later. But I'm also in favor of a tutorial mission where the new player gets blown up so maybe I'm a little nuts.
Akita T needs an editor or something, that OP is pretty rambling and jumps from topic to topic. Focus man, focus. |
Graisse
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Posted - 2009.02.10 01:19:00 -
[49]
CCP is gonna sell 2x accelerated skill learning packs using the new redeem system.
For sho :l
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Drixil
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.10 02:50:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Drixil on 10/02/2009 02:52:33
Originally by: Vaal Erit
But I'm also in favor of a tutorial mission where the new player gets blown up so maybe I'm a little nuts.
.
Hey, me too! I'm just a noob myself, but I think having a tutorial mission that blows up the new player would drastically decrease the trauma experienced by said player the 1st time they get podded in lowsec...
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Rondo Gunn
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.10 02:59:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Rondo Gunn on 10/02/2009 03:02:19
Originally by: Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr
Akita is a breed of dog...
They are a great one too. But what does this have to do with the topic?
Edit: No Drix, it's the pain and mental anguish of the first podding that makes the tear's sweeter. I'm all for coddling the nub and telling them they are safe wherever they roam.  Sweet nub tears...so...sweet....
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shin ku myo u
Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness. |
Malthros Zenobia
Cadian Special Operations Command
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Posted - 2009.02.10 03:22:00 -
[52]
Akita, I don't think you 'get' EVE, still.
Having character attributes be uniform is good. Why? Because this isn't a game of fairies and dragons. The idea that one empire would have more charismatic, or smarter, or more determined... whatever, is absurd. That's like saying americans, europeans, and asians don't have the same limitations and abilities.
Being able to pick skills to train sounds fine to me. You mention needing skillbooks, but have you done the NPE? Are you telling me after going through it there no skills, money, or any indication given to help new players? I find this hard to believe. You're acting like they simply deleted the tutorial, removed Aura, and are throwing new players into an game without any helping hand.
Sorry, but I think you're either leaving something out, or looked at character creation and don't like it and are basing everything off of that. NPE is more than character creation and skill assignment. Hell as a new player I'd have preferred double SP up to 1.6m over 800k (or the 15k I started with, as I didn't learn about the caldari frig 4 thing until I was at 98k sp and finished with the tutorial and enjoying myself).
You claim it'll take longer but any player that looks into how the game works, or has/makes a friend that knows the game, is going to end up being able to do plenty in a very short period. Until you've gone through everything, stop with your half-empty doom and gloom. |
Mal Plox
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.10 03:35:00 -
[53]
We want 60k SP!
if the lowest clone stays at what it is, i can now train cyno alts on every account and not ever worry about them getting podded.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 03:58:00 -
[54]
Just chiming in to say that alot of the changes slated to be made will really take alot of the individuality of attributes and marginalize their effect. Allowing everyone a free respec every 6mo's? Seems like you're losing identity and uniqueness of EVE, moreso than any flexibility.
As for getting less skills but faster training time, it seem as if CCP realized that starting everyone off with Gunnery 5 was stupid, but speeding everyone up through the first month is also silly.
What needs to be done is a realization that EVE is now a very old game. When a persistent game gets to be a certain age, I think you really have to concede a point and give newbies a bit of an advantage over what older players had to start wtih.
The perfect advantage was giving them high levels in basic skills and enabling them to hop into t2 smalls and inty's quickly. Adding some artificial speed to training time is needless when the current system works.
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Friends Forever |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.10 04:07:00 -
[55]
I agree. CCP dropped the ball. Somethings they did right. But others they did absolutely wrong.
Whichever dev thought of this should have his coffee privileges revoked :-) |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.10 05:17:00 -
[56]
All I wanna know is, can I still get a toon out of the cooker with frig V? |
Mr Discord
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.02.10 05:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Akita T
All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience.
You think we can all agree? 
Akita, allow me to introduce The Eve Community. Eve Community, this is Akita.
...seriously though I'm not convinced this is any worse than how it is currently. I see the new system as being more like making a totally custom character in a D&D game (video game that is) as opposed to picking a preset build, which is more like the old system. I think most people prefer the more custom option.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 05:42:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Having character attributes be uniform is good\
well now, someone can't read the op.
the issue here is simple.
you get 1.6 million sp at a faster rate.
if you train ANYTHING but learning, you are wasting it.
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Ma'kal
Caldari
SUNDERING
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.02.10 05:46:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Leaving Eve
Hi, if anyone needs me, just bell me.
I <3 Leaving Eve
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OffBeaT
Caldari
LEGI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:04:00 -
[60]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst.
brilliant.
Honestly eve could change completly, as long as my real loss PvP is around I wouldn't care if all players got all skills in the game.
I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills.
what kind of freaked out Mohawk planet are you on huh? you think players can fight with 60mil-120mil implants in there head even with clones.. time put in is skill in the game fool!
you think this will fill up 00 space or will they hug empire to keep there implants?
you wont real risk like you go on about then you play like me and never use a jump clone your hole eve game. then live in low sec or 00 systems you are hunted in 24/7.. without blob warriors to gang with.
this must be a blob warrior talking here! yes, give the nobs a BRAKE, but don't cheap what we have all done to get where we all are.
i say drop all higher learning skill for time earned skills that work with time put into the game based on what skills you use the most as a player.. you wona make players different in a real way that's the way to go! if i am a pvper i wont a 6th lvl skill on top of my lvl 5 maxed skill so i fly a raven all day i rack up say 5000hrs i get a lvl 6 rank on my ship and so on with other skills that are maxed out that get used after they have been maxed out. 
that chick has got a point to what she is saying!
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Neth'Rae
Gallente
Decorum Inc
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
I didn't understand any of that
Originally by: Akita T
you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count,
and I think that sentence is eating it's self...
I think the starting SP should still be one or at least a half mil SP, and then 200% training speed up to 2-3mil.
I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here! |
Fire Ants
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:14:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:14:51
I'm going to say this in every thread I encounter on this topic:
If your enjoyment of EVE is so fragile that it can be shattered by the possibility of a new player having as many skillpoints as you do, then I submit that you don't really enjoy playing the game and are only interested in an endless series of victories. Hell, you should be rejoicing at the abundance of worthy opponents.
And don't give me that "I worked hard to get where I am today" horsesh*t. If EVE is work for you, then you're doing it wrong.
If you really want to take something that seriously, do yourself a favor and invest that energy in your RL ambitions. This is EVE Online, not a congressional hearing.
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Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business.
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OffBeaT
Caldari
LEGI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:24:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Fire Ants
Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:14:51
I'm going to say this in every thread I encounter on this topic:
If your enjoyment of EVE is so fragile that it can be shattered by the possibility of a new player having as many skillpoints as you do, then I submit that you don't really enjoy playing the game and are only interested in an endless series of victories. Hell, you should be rejoicing at the abundance of worthy opponents.
And don't give me that "I worked hard to get where I am today" horsesh*t. If EVE is work for you, then you're doing it wrong.
If you really want to take something that seriously, do yourself a favor and invest that energy in your RL ambitions. This is EVE Online, not a congressional hearing.
its not about skill points its about putting your history into the game.. you didnt buy your guy did you!
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Fire Ants
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:30:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:31:09
Originally by: OffBeaT
its not about skill points its about putting your history into the game.. you didnt buy your guy did you!
Buy? He's a month old.
Quite the opposite, in fact: I recently terminated a 14m SP character due to a combination of high Charisma, skilltree ADD and a fantastically stupid name. But it actually helped me enjoy the game more, now that I know what I'm doing. What significance does your character's history have other than to impress other players?
I think a lot of you are approaching this the wrong way, as though EVE is all about doing stuff you hate only to work your way up to stuff you hate less. That sounds excruciating.
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Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 06:34:00 -
[65]
Originally by: OffBeaT
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst.
brilliant.
Honestly eve could change completly, as long as my real loss PvP is around I wouldn't care if all players got all skills in the game.
I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills.
what kind of freaked out Mohawk planet are you on huh? you think players can fight with 60mil-120mil implants in there head even with clones.. time put in is skill in the game fool!
you think this will fill up 00 space or will they hug empire to keep there implants?
you wont real risk like you go on about then you play like me and never use a jump clone your hole eve game. then live in low sec or 00 systems you are hunted in 24/7.. without blob warriors to gang with.
this must be a blob warrior talking here! yes, give the nobs a BRAKE, but don't cheap what we have all done to get where we all are.
i say drop all higher learning skill for time earned skills that work with time put into the game based on what skills you use the most as a player.. you wona make players different in a real way that's the way to go! if i am a pvper i wont a 6th lvl skill on top of my lvl 5 maxed skill so i fly a raven all day i rack up say 5000hrs i get a lvl 6 rank on my ship and so on with other skills that are maxed out that get used after they have been maxed out.
that chick has got a point to what she is saying!
you mised it didn't you.
all +5 are replaced with +10
prices are the same.
scale down.
now you could fly around in+5 and only be risking maybe 3 million isk.
I agree with anything that removed advanced learning skills, the whole double sp gain rate has made it impossible to train anything else. it's terribly broken.
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OffBeaT
Caldari
LEGI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.10 07:20:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Fire Ants
Edited by: Fire Ants on 10/02/2009 06:31:09
Originally by: OffBeaT
its not about skill points its about putting your history into the game.. you didnt buy your guy did you!
Buy? He's a month old.
Quite the opposite, in fact: I recently terminated a 14m SP character due to a combination of high Charisma, skilltree ADD and a fantastically stupid name. But it actually helped me enjoy the game more, now that I know what I'm doing. What significance does your character's history have other than to impress other players?
I think a lot of you are approaching this the wrong way, as though EVE is all about doing stuff you hate only to work your way up to stuff you hate less. That sounds excruciating.
know one said i don't enjoy the game, if i didn't like the game i wouldn't be here.
second i don't really think you know what loss is in this game yet and what grind is about in eve.
now if eve ever becomes joy joy fluff game like you see it im out of here. i like my games tough.
as for what significance your character's history have.. well ill tell you!
yea, i don't own cva/goon/bob but i know how bob began & what they where before bob i know pie/cva and know how they began, i flew though moo space in the days when they began and where. i saw some of the early alliance in prov & surrounding space when they began to scout out that turf. i am a member as are others of one of the oldest pirate corps in the game as i was a member of soul cartel in the days of real stand up combat. the soul channel is still there with old school & newer members who still have a bond of them old days & what soul cartel was when we where our own thing. i say we can be again!
as for who i am in eve i tell you i am a stand up player who believes i can.. i don't back down & i am loyal to my turf.. know one in eve will say i am not a stand up fighter in eve or loyal to the people i have sided with.
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Fire Ants
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2009.02.10 07:34:00 -
[67]
Originally by: OffBeaT
i don't really think you know what loss is in this game yet and what grind is about in eve.
now if eve ever becomes joy joy fluff game like you see it im out of here. i like my games tough.
Well, I am pretty familiar with loss and grinding. I've played on and off since 2005; this is just a new character. I've lost some pretty expensive stuff in the past, but the long and complicated process of regaining what I'd lost was plenty of fun in its own right, so the actual loss - no matter how financially significant - was never enough to diminish my enjoyment of the game. I wouldn't be playing EVE if it were easy either. Overcoming challenges is what makes it fun. But I don't really see how allowing new players to train up a bit faster is going to make the game easy; the learning curve will always be a vertical line and no amount of SP will compensate for inexperience. It would take a colossal blunder far beyond anything we've ever seen for EVE to become literally easy. Originally by: OffBeaT
as for what significance your character's history have.. well ill tell you!
yea, i don't own cva/goon/bob but i know how bob began & what they where before bob i know pie/cva and know how they began, i flew though moo space in the days when they began and where. i saw some of the early alliance in prov & surrounding space when they began to scout out that turf. i am a member as are others of one of the oldest pirate corps in the game as i was a member of soul cartel in the days of real stand up combat. the soul channel is still there with old school & newer members who still have a bond of them old days & what soul cartel was when we where our own thing. i say we can be again!
as for who i am in eve i tell you i am a stand up player who believes i can.. i don't back down & i am loyal to my turf.. know one in eve will say i am not a stand up fighter in eve or loyal to the people i have sided with.
That may be true, but it seems to me that the bond you're talking about - which I'm sure is a strong one and absolutely worthwhile - exists primarily outside of the game, with your character acting only as a face you present to your friends. Surely the bond would be the same if you were playing on an alt or - god forbid - a new main altogether like myself? The employment history of your character isn't nearly as important as the employment history of you, personally, as a player.
This character may be new, but I can think of plenty of players in Noob Mercs and Aurora Acclivitous who'd recognize me all the same.
+10 karma to you for an articulate and passionate post.
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Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 12:44:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Fire Ants
[...]If your enjoyment of EVE is so fragile that it can be shattered by the possibility of a new player having as many skillpoints as you do, then I submit that you don't really enjoy playing the game and are only interested in an endless series of victories. Hell, you should be rejoicing at the abundance of worthy opponents.[...]
So... is that something in support of the issue(s) presented in the OP, or against it ?
Because, from my viewpoint at least, the upcoming system gets new players worse off, therefore LESS worthy opponents... it's a step BACK from the current starter point (SP-wise).
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 13:10:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/02/2009 13:10:06
There was a psychology experiment done a few years ago.
One group of people were given ś5 and told to go on their way.
Group two were given ś10 but then told to give ś5 back.
Both groups went home with ś5, but the first group were happy and the second group were miserable.
Giving new players a training speed boost and taking it away is treating them like the second group. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 13:16:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
I too am in favor of the 'old' 800-900k sp NPE instead of the 'new' 2x rewards and letting noobs train dumb skills that they might regret later.
Don't worry, I'm sure that CCP will allow players to respec their SPs at some point in the future. |
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StickyFingerz
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.02.10 13:22:00 -
[71]
good discussion, as per usual tho, wrong forum.
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Relentless Storm Cartel
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.10 13:34:00 -
[72]
60+ million skillpoints here so take my post with a pinch of salt, I may be a tad biased.
With every patch and upgrade, CCP dumbs down this beautiful game to encourage greater takeup amongst the intellectually challenged and impatient denizens of cyberspace.
From a business point of view this makes perfect sense, more bums on seats and ships in space equals great profit margins.
From the perspective of some of the older player base it's annoying as people are getting into ships within weeks that used to take far longer.
Others amongst the older players (myself included) bemoan the dumbing down of the game and the loss of uniqueness between races and charactersa, but think what the hell, doesn't really affect me much if at all; been there, done that, bought the Tshirt from the online shop.
It just seems to me that eve is moving towards "power levelling", where people are only interested in getting into a particular type of ship in the shortest time possible, or getting a particular skill faster than the mate they joined up with.
I hear people saying that thier character is "gimped" or is far behind the curve skill wise. Come on, skillpoints are not the be all and end all of eve. If you fixate on skills, you miss out on what makes this a great game. Slow down and smell the rocket exhaust.
My character is gimped. People I started playing this game with have far far more skill points than me, but Amaron and I have been together for a long time now warts and all, and I wouldn't change him even if i could. His warts make him unique, not a cookie cutter pirate, or PvP'r or Industrialist, or Miner.
Bottom line(s)
I don't like the changes to skill training, I really don't like the proposed attribute point change, and I absolutely detest the doubling of skill training for the first 1.6 mill SP.
However you won't hear me jumping up and down about it on the forums , or quitting in disgust, because to be honest, it won't affect my game in the slightest. Maybe the target environment will be slightly richer for a while, but that will be about it. |
Sade Onyx
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Posted - 2009.02.10 13:37:00 -
[73]
Originally by: StickyFingerz
as per usual tho, wrong forum.
Good job your not a Mod then isnt it? - if it was the wrong forum it would have been moved already. So I guess your wrong.
Regardless of wether or not this will be a better or worse new player experience, I think everyone can agree that this change defiantly means that every new character should train Learning skills and nothing but.
So apart from Race I guess we are seeing the birth of cookie cutter characters.
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Marie Duvolle
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Posted - 2009.02.10 14:39:00 -
[74]
I (think I) understand why they changed the system, it's to discourage alt (re)use. I don't have a problem at all with players starting with 60k SP (before all this you started with 8k iirc), so while they obviously try to spin is as something cool it's actually a restriction... on purpose.
The only downside being that, yes, it would be smart to train full learning skills the first month but still, that's a CHOICE. If everyone would min-max the whole time we'd all be Achura's, and we're not. So while I understand Akita's warning of "this will advocate 1 month of pure boredom" it is still a choice which some will be willing to make.
Again, they are changing is so that fresh alts aren't as useful as they are now.
Don't stir the hornet's nest |
Writ Insand
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:04:00 -
[75]
Quote:
60+ million skillpoints here so take my post with a pinch of salt, I may be a tad biased.
With every patch and upgrade, CCP dumbs down this beautiful game to encourage greater takeup amongst the intellectually challenged and impatient denizens of cyberspace.
Confirming that I, too, am a superior human being because I play an internet spaceship game. |
StickyFingerz
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:52:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Sade Onyx
Originally by: StickyFingerz
as per usual tho, wrong forum.
Good job your not a Mod then isnt it? - if it was the wrong forum it would have been moved already. So I guess your wrong.
I guess so, but given the rest of the feedback is going on in the right place i guess i am just a stickler for detail. the right place would be here. It bugs me slightly that Akita knows exactly were this forum is and uses it on a regular basis but when something is "deemed" as more important it ends up here.
anyhow - not worth arguing about, its just the the EvE forums are spammed enough as it is.
with regard to the main point i am largly in agreement, the tutorial right now sucks, but the starting skills and such are fine - not sure why thats being changed.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.02.10 15:56:00 -
[77]
someone with 20m+ sp complaining about someone that can train faster for the first weeks is pathetic as he will never catch up, no matter what.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:06:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
someone with 20m+ sp complaining about someone that can train faster for the first weeks is pathetic as he will never catch up, no matter what.
Except that the people to gain from the changes are those with 20m+ SP, not the new players.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:19:00 -
[79]
Originally by: MotherMoon
I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills.
You can take away my implants, but you can never take away my advanced learning skills. Therefore - NO U! 
My opinion may or may not be shared by my alliance |
sirovai
Amarr
Modern-Warfare
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:06:00 -
[80]
Attribute respec ftw, keep them in next patch ccp. Thankyou.
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Alora Venoda
GalTech
Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:14:00 -
[81]
well i think most of us are forgetting that CCP mentioned the new NPE will award skillbooks from the newbie missions, along with helping them in a career choice.
new players very rarely actually power-train all the learning skills anyway, mainly because they can't afford them, and they don't understand them yet. but the current 800k starter sets do provide a few learning skills based on career path.
so let's compare new vs old experience for a brand new EVE player...
old NPE: start with a bunch of skills you dont understand yet and try to do stuff, train a few new skills for things you are trying to do, etc.
new NPE: start with less skills, and ACTUALLY LEARN what all the skills do as you train from the ground up... which is now MUCH EASIER with a QUEUE and faster training speed.
result when they reach 1 million SP: the new player is in a much better place, with fewer "useless" skills they don't understand or happened to start with because they didn't fully understand the starting career path they are now stuck with. instead they have skills they chose themselves, that they are more likely to understand and put to good use.
as i recall, there were a number of complaints that starting with 800k skips an important "learning phase" for new players, because they can almost immediately jump into cruisers -- which they probably can't afford and would probably lose quickly due to inexperience. with the new system, they will once again have to work their way up and actually learn how to play EVE in frigates as they start out.
so overall, i think the newer system will be better for the new players, even though it may take a bit longer to train some of the skills they can currently start with.
and when us veteran players make alts, we will power-train them and give them +4 sets, etc, just like we already do. but with the new queue and double training speed, we can do that even faster. so the only complaint is not having a "ready made" alt if one of those 800k prefab skillsets happened to be nearly perfect for whatever we want our alt to do. but overall i think the tradeoff is worth it.
also, regarding player diversity -- currently we have a zillion Achuras purely because of the bloodline attributes... but by allowing all the races able to have the same attributes, we can finally have a more even distribution of races.
but i do agree that it's lame to enforce a minimum of 5 in one attribute, while currently you can have as low as 3... but would i make that trade-off for being able to switch from int/mem focus to perc/will?? heck yes! having a "balanced" attribute spread is no longer as important since i can train all my science and industry and then switch to combat after 6 months.
i just can't wait to see what EVEMON will do regarding attribute optimization for your skill plan
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:49:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Concorduck
IB Leaving Eve
IB Sidrat Flush That's a great site for reminiscing.
spell checker in aisle four please.
--------------------------
Life is about memories the more the better.
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Obento Jones
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:49:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Obento Jones on 10/02/2009 17:49:28
Sucks even more for those of us that just passed 2 million sp... 
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Stump Junkman
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:53:00 -
[84]
I think I'm scared more that this "individual" claims to speak for us.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:09:00 -
[85]
My hundredth of a cent is as follows.
I don't care really. It's all good. If it gets new people in the game then they'll either stay or they'll leave as nature intended. Those that do stay will I'm sure already be good people OR they'll grow in to it and become better people.
It's not just about the combat, this is Eve people. The ONLY online game that doesn't shard the player space. No character is an island in this game (unless they turn auto-reject on of course) but even then they MUST be interacting with the market or contracts and thus have some sort of web to the other players.
Skill points mean a lot yes, there's no alternative. In order to be effective however, skill points aren't the only aspect that is important. It's about time management (can you say you've never lost skill time? the skill queue may result in fewer hours lost or it may not), it's about people skills and diplomacy. Those are out of game skills that can't be purchased, only YOU can recognize your own "short commings" and either address them or accept them as to the person that you want to be.
Actions and deeds in this game are worth more than the ability to fly a pvp fitted ship or lead a fleet in to combat, or a corporation into the unknown.
Eve doesn't have a learning curve it has a cliff. A very very high cliff, that demands that you hold on with two hands and very few footholds. Other players are usually willing to offer advice, it's up to you find that good advice as early as possible and accept and follow it, or ignore it and tread your own path.
This is Eve Online, and regardless of what character skills you have there will always be a difference between each and every character. (hopefully)
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insidion
Caldari
Last of the Technocracy
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:15:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Akita T
It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper...
I admit I'm surprised that you're not for this Akita. Problem is that it just takes too long for the average person to wait for a lot of this stuff. I'm an impatient dude, so I admit I'm leaning towards the idea, but I am equally surprised that CCP didn't just release tier 3 learning skills before going to this length.
I know we don't want things to be 'imba', but I personally don't see anything wrong with this system. =I
Then again I have yet to actually try it out myself, or do any of the math on it. =) |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:21:00 -
[87]
I agree with Akita T on these points.
From a technical point of view, the NPE is now much worse for the newbs.
About immersion point of view and about the 'feeling' I cannot say anything, wasn't able to test it yet.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:28:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gnulpie
From a technical point of view, the NPE is now much worse for the newbs.
About immersion point of view and about the 'feeling' I cannot say anything, wasn't able to test it yet.
Oh, I'm certain that the fast improvement at the beginning will feel mighty nice…
…until the new players learn that since the wasted that benefit on random fun stuff rather than on getting the mindnumbingly boring crap out of the way as quickly as possible, and that they are now forever on the back foot compared to those who knew how to min-max the creation process.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Vikura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:01:00 -
[89]
So, for me as a Gallente with base charisma of 7 and hitting 2 mil SP in the next few days. These changes will do nothing expect i will be able to drop 2 points from charisma into something else, right? (incase i would be happy with my other attributes)
And, new players will start with next to no SP, but learn twice as fast untill you have given ammount of SP?
Gunnery and Small racial weapon skill to lvl 5 will take like what? Total of 7-9 days even with double training speed... how is this gonna help new player when you can start now a Soldier with both maxed? Yeah there might be more "trash" SP given currently, but there are still some good stuff.
Why not just give X ammount SP that you can customly add to a given skills you want, lets say SP worth of 4 rank 1 skills to lvl 5 (4x 250k)? Sure a new player can mess up the character that way, but at least not as much as currently you can with attributes.
Originally by: "Akita T"
All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience.
Of course, things are a bit too far done and gone to be changed, but in case they're somehow not all that final, take all of the above into consideration.
If i did understant right the changes, then yes. New players will be screwed. In terms of fun for the first 2 months or so.
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:12:00 -
[90]
0nE MiLIOn DOLLaR$
OR WE KIlL YOuR poST
CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:14:00 -
[91]
Edited by: bff Jill on 10/02/2009 21:15:38
Remove learning skills, give everyone +10 to all attributes. Since this 'two times training speed' capability is now in the game, simply take every character, before deleting the learning skills entirely note how many skill points in learning skills those people had, and give them 2 times training speed until those skill points can be recovered. (so if you had 1million in learning skills, you will train 2times as fast for the next 2 million skill points).
Leaving the current races/bloodlines alone.
And sure, let newbies start with 60k and have two times training until 1.6mil, with learning skills out of the picture this would be just fine.
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Vikura
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:28:00 -
[92]
Oh and, wouldn't it be now best to make high Mem/Int alt, use this ~1 month or so to train learnings fast, then when expansion hits, "balance" your attributes to be more suitable for whatever you want to do?
For example Gallente / Intaki / Reborn / +3mem +2 int for a base of 14 mem 10 int. Use this "spare" time untill the expansion is released to train int and mem learnings to 5/4 (5/0 or 5/1 for per&wil) and int/mem support skills as high as you can. Then respec to balanced or more heavy to perception, then train the perception focused skills (learnings and spceship / gunnery skills)
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Taak Coram
Gallente
Cursed Souls
Vort3x.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:01:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Taak Coram on 10/02/2009 22:06:30
Edited by: Taak Coram on 10/02/2009 22:05:43
Admitting right now I haven't read the other posts in this thread.
I have to agree with OP, on some points. I realise forcing new players to make decisions right away that affect a lot much later in the game is a little harsh, and attribute respeccing is a good idea, but it can be overdone and in its current iteration on SiSi it does seem to be that way. I could be wrong of course, but I've been led to believe that everyone starting off starts off with the exact same attributes and no starter skill package.
I've always liked these starter skill packs. It gives a new player some form of direction. I realise CCP wants to make this the ultimate sandbox game, but that little bit of direction (say, hybrid turrets and drones for gallente soldiers, or the proper mining skills for industrialists) puts new players on the some sort path. Even if new players don't understand what the skills mean, simply reading the description of each job yields at least some basic info. If they don't like it - and this is what I love about EVE - change. Train up other skills. It's what I did. With these changes, that image where it shows the EVE Learning Curve swooping up and over with bodies falling off will actually be more true, due simply to the staggering amount of skills new players will face.
I'm usually all for the expansions, and this one is no different. I just think CCP should put a bit more thought into the attribute/no-job/NPE thing. Just a bit.
Let's keep this a thinking man's game.
EDIT: Edited for clarity and better point-making
EDIT2: Added first edit note.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:16:00 -
[94]
Originally by: insidion
Originally by: Akita T
It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper...
I admit I'm surprised that you're not for this Akita. Problem is that it just takes too long for the average person to wait for a lot of this stuff. I'm an impatient dude, so I admit I'm leaning towards the idea, but I am equally surprised that CCP didn't just release tier 3 learning skills before going to this length.
I know we don't want things to be 'imba', but I personally don't see anything wrong with this system. =I
Then again I have yet to actually try it out myself, or do any of the math on it. =)
your missing.... everyone seems to be missing the ops point :/
about learning skills.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:17:00 -
[95]
Originally by: H Lecter
Originally by: MotherMoon
I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills.
You can take away my implants, but you can never take away my advanced learning skills. Therefore - NO U!
now there is a crazy idea, take aay implants, add 5 points to everyone?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:19:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 10/02/2009 13:10:06
There was a psychology experiment done a few years ago.
One group of people were given ś5 and told to go on their way.
Group two were given ś10 but then told to give ś5 back.
Both groups went home with ś5, but the first group were happy and the second group were miserable.
Giving new players a training speed boost and taking it away is treating them like the second group.
which is why you HAVE to train advanced skills at your double the rate, so that once yor done with your 1.6 million sp, you'll keep learning at double the rate FOREVER.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:26:00 -
[97]
i personally dont mind, they have the SP but they dont have the experience to apply the skills since the still only have basic knowledge of the game,
this is suddendly beccoming a SP is EXP
which it isnt , they could fly battleship stright off the bat and i couldnt care becuase as older player we have more support skills, knowledge of how to fly that ship with set ups, i mean they are probably going to have hull reppers on them because they think it might be useful, they have to learn to tank, and flagging mechanics , not to mentioned they are going to get scammed, learn the security system
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: MotherMoon
which is why you HAVE to train advanced skills at your double the rate, so that once yor done with your 1.6 million sp, you'll keep learning at double the rate FOREVER.
Bingo 
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:42:00 -
[99]
Does the first time you spec out of 8/8/8/8/7 start the 6 month timer? Or is that your 'spec' and then you can 'respec' afterward?
Trying to figure out how to break the system and gain lolSP/S most efficiently.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:58:00 -
[100]
i think if you planning on trainin g gunnery skill for a long time then maybe you chain you attrs to what is needed for the long period of time or do what i did when i started put everything into ships sattribs as level 5 is horrible on ships |
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:30:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Dani SP on 11/02/2009 00:32:41
the crap
I created my account on Nov 2008 and still doing learn skills, obviously I do other important skills in the mean. Has been a personal choice, a sacrifice, and no way they will now remove my and others sacrifices.
You dont want to spend months training Logic/eidetic to level V??? Ok, keep your lower attributes.
I started with 800k. Its OK for me if they increase now to... lets say 1.2millions. More than that, and I will get angry at someone LOL. I mean I currently got 3.4millions, dont want a noob to get more than me.
Think of late 2008 registered players, CCP!!!!!!1
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Armoured C
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:34:00 -
[102]
i didnt bother with my learning skills and i am fine , i did up to level 4 later in the game , but i had some fun gun stuff at the beggining, if i did do the learning skill for 2 months at the beggining of the game i probably of quit and you wouldnt have filling the forums with my delicious juice 
This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
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Khlitouris RegusII
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:57:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kendrix Arathan
I didn't understand any of that
Originally by: Akita T
you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count,
and I think that sentence is eating it's self...
In caveman speak:
"you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh".
my character had 45k sp after creation :( |
Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:03:00 -
[104]
Who cares about 40, 60 or even 800k. They are achieved before 1st month. But now the noobs will get a much more bigger advantage.
current plans from *cough*atari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more.
As I stated, learn skills are good as they are now. You want faster training in the long term, train these. You prefer pew pew and bigger ships asap, dont train them but you will be penalized in the future with slower trainings.
Now they are removing all this. We are walking to a WOW 2.0... |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 01:24:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Dani SP
Who cares about 40, 60 or even 800k. They are achieved before 1st month. But now the noobs will get a much more bigger advantage.
current plans from *cough*atari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more.
As I stated, learn skills are good as they are now. You want faster training in the long term, train these. You prefer pew pew and bigger ships asap, dont train them but you will be penalized in the future with slower trainings.
Now they are removing all this. We are walking to a WOW 2.0...
no currently nothign is different other than making new players lifes harder. |
Ficha Pritty
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:17:00 -
[106]
Can someone summarize and tell me what this thread is about??
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:25:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ficha Pritty
Can someone summarize and tell me what this thread is about??
It's in big golden letters at the bottom of the OP. Duuh.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Cor Aidan
Imperium Forces
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:25:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Mal Plox
We want 60k SP!
if the lowest clone stays at what it is, i can now train cyno alts on every account and not ever worry about them getting podded.
I believe this is correct. The proposed changes are a good way to balance out new players while nerfing alts. Fewer starting SP for alts means that people will have to sacrifice training (and isk) from their mains to make same-account alts useful.
Weren't people clamoring for an alt nerf? Well, here it is!
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Doppleganger
Minmatar
Libera Mentem Tuam
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Posted - 2009.02.11 04:26:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: MotherMoon
which is why you HAVE to train advanced skills at your double the rate, so that once yor done with your 1.6 million sp, you'll keep learning at double the rate FOREVER.
Bingo
So by saying that they HAVE to use that accelerated training on learning skills to teach them that this game is all about sp? Well thats a nice msg to convey to ppl.
Heck I ignored most of the learning skills for about 6 months when I 1st started cause I didnt think I was going to play the game for more then a yr tops so I didnt want to waste time on them. Once I decided I was going to play long term then I trained them up. Didn't seem to hurt me any so I doubt it will hurt any new players if they don't jump right on it.
Its posts like this that suggest that new players HAVE to train up learning skills 1st is the problem. I didn't even mind the training time of my learning skills cause all skills in this game mean having patentience and the sooner they learn that the better off they will be.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:04:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Doppleganger
So by saying that they HAVE to use that accelerated training on learning skills to teach them that this game is all about sp? Well thats a nice msg to convey to ppl.
For combat pilots (the vast majority of EVE players, be it actual PVPers or just "carebear" missionrunners), it's not about SP only after a certain point onwards.
That point is when you get mostly L4 and above skills in at least one chosen ship class (including appropriate support skills), with some L5 that are prerequisites.
SADLY, that's somewhere half a year to one year down the road, depending on chosen ship class.
BEFORE that, IT IS mostly about SP.
Sure, if you get some decent friends, you can be a tackler with minimal SP count, but then again, how many tackler does a PvP corp need, and how long do you think new people will stand getting wiped out in almost every sortie because all they do is tackle ?
Quote:
Its posts like this that suggest that new players HAVE to train up learning skills 1st is the problem. I didn't even mind the training time of my learning skills cause all skills in this game mean having patentience and the sooner they learn that the better off they will be.
Hello ? Knock knock ? Anybody there ? Anybody read the OP at all ? Apparently not.
Before this particular change, I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to most people.
But now, you "have the chance" (read : it's much more important) to get your LEARNING skills down to reasonable levels (at least 4/4, preferably some base to 5) before you reach 1.6 mil SP total, when your training speed gets kicked in the 'nads to half.
Sure, you can live without learnings, but the importance of getting them EARLY will have AT LEAST DOUBLED if this change makes it into the game.
It was a relatively tough choice before, it will be even worse from now on.
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Doppleganger
Minmatar
Libera Mentem Tuam
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:16:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Akita T
Hello ? Knock knock ? Anybody there ? Anybody read the OP at all ? Apparently not.
Before this particular change, I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to most people.
But now, you "have the chance" (read : it's much more important) to get your LEARNING skills down to reasonable levels (at least 4/4, preferably some base to 5) before you reach 1.6 mil SP total, when your training speed gets kicked in the 'nads to half.
Sure, you can live without learnings, but the importance of getting them EARLY will have AT LEAST DOUBLED if this change makes it into the game.
It was a relatively tough choice before, it will be even worse from now on.
Yes I did read the op
Originally by: Akita T
Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage.
Severe disadvantage why? Oh that the the game is about sp thing again.
Originally by: Akita T
* learnings done ASAP is MUCH more important (at least x2 importance) = this sucks
/me shakes head |
Anneke Goulet
CUTLASS CORPORATION
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:40:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Dani SP
I started with 800k. Its OK for me if they increase now to... lets say 1.2millions. More than that, and I will get angry at someone LOL. I mean I currently got 3.4millions, dont want a noob to get more than me.
Oh-boy. You werent around but this same moaning was there when they raised starting sp from 200-300k to 800k. Cant remember when it was, year or two ago anyways.
And as shown earlier and many times, they wont never "catch up" with you as it cuts down on 1.6mil sp, after which the noob is just normal char with 1.6 mil sp.
+ Anyone assuming newbs will fly ibis for this whole time it takes to train that 1.6 mil learning with only civ-turrets & boosters is... yeah.
Anyone want to make nice and simple copypaste message telling newbs receive 50k sp and train 2x faster until 1.6 mil as currently at least I'm getting bored typing these answers. Bonus for some witty remark about not searching for previous topics etc. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 07:30:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Doppleganger
Originally by: Akita T
Hello ? Knock knock ? Anybody there ? Anybody read the OP at all ? Apparently not.
Before this particular change, I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to most people.
But now, you "have the chance" (read : it's much more important) to get your LEARNING skills down to reasonable levels (at least 4/4, preferably some base to 5) before you reach 1.6 mil SP total, when your training speed gets kicked in the 'nads to half.
Sure, you can live without learnings, but the importance of getting them EARLY will have AT LEAST DOUBLED if this change makes it into the game.
It was a relatively tough choice before, it will be even worse from now on.
Yes I did read the op
Originally by: Akita T
Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage.
Severe disadvantage why? Oh that the the game is about sp thing again.
Originally by: Akita T
* learnings done ASAP is MUCH more important (at least x2 importance) = this sucks
/me shakes head
ok time for some math!
did you know if you want to trian say... rigates 4 and support skills to 4 you can do all that FASTER with learning skils?
so in the time it takes to learn 60 skills to 1.6 million sp you could of learning 80 skills including 20 levels of learning skills, AND have all those other skills done, AND do it faster.
With this change you can do it EVEN FASTER. so if you don't train say such and such forget your sp count, you just missing out on skills.
I wish I had the time to really graph this out, but check eve mon, you can ad in MORE SKILLS TO TRIAN., and lower overall training time. even though you learn more skills you actully train those more skills in less time.
it's stupid. in fact... oh **** I have an idea, ccp, make it AUTOMATIC.
if you are about to training something that you could lower and skill get learning skills in, pop-up telling the player he is wasting time and could get that skill faster if he trains this 1st. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:35:00 -
[114]
Not touching this topic 'cause, well, honestly...A: players won't quit because of this and B: if you get killed by a two month old pilot, he/she deserves the win. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:40:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Not touching this topic 'cause, well, honestly...A: players won't quit because of this and B: if you get killed by a two month old pilot, he/she deserves the win.
but jones, the learning skills :(
they must remove the advanced learning skills before it's too late!
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:43:00 -
[116]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Not touching this topic 'cause, well, honestly...A: players won't quit because of this and B: if you get killed by a two month old pilot, he/she deserves the win.
but jones, the learning skills :(
they must remove the advanced learning skills before it's too late!
No *plays with his exotic dancer* Not touching this one.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:45:00 -
[117]
neural remapping will make learnings less important
why skill any higher than 4+4? with imps you can spec an attribute to 30. one more point (in all of them) therefore takes 30x time to pay off. blowing ~20days on the basic lvl V's? only if you're sure you're gonna play, like, two years.
what bothers me more: now everybody will (still) pick achura for mem/int and thus faster basic learnings *zzz*
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:45:00 -
[118]
No, why must you take away Aura? She was my only friend in the beginning. And now newbies will have no one.
And after all this time, I finally removed that annoying sentence in my signature.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:03:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Akita T on 11/02/2009 13:04:20
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
neural remapping will make learnings less important
why skill any higher than 4+4? with imps you can spec an attribute to 30. one more point (in all of them) therefore takes 30x time to pay off. blowing ~20days on the basic lvl V's? only if you're sure you're gonna play, like, two years.
HOORAY ! ENTER THE AGE OF *X-TRE3EM!!11one* CHARACTER FARMING !
You mean, remap freshly created character to 15int/9mem/5/5/5, train cybernetics L1, plug in +3int/+3mem, train basic4/advanced4 int/mem and L4 learning, get cyber L5, plug in +5int/mem implants (hey, you did just sell one PLEX for all the money you could ever need, didn't you?), then do L5 basic int/mem/learning and maybe also L5 advanced int (you'd be just about out of the double-speed by now), or instead you could do all other 3 basic learnings to 5 instead (and again be pretty much almost out of double-speed).
I'd say L5 advanced int would be better, for now.
Don't even touch advanced per/wil/cha yet... actually, not at all for the first 6 months.
Now, if you haven't already, get all other basic learnings to 5 if you want.
Hmm, guess how much ALL THAT FIRST 1.6 MIL SP would take to get ?
Oh, why, how about A BIT OVER TWO WEEKS ?
Yup, that's right - you can do all of this in the extended trial... but only if you do it like that. You probably could make it in a normal trial, if you exploit the "3 grace days" to the max and activate it on the 17th day only.
Then, spend almost 6 more months (well, 5 and a half) getting all engineering/electronics/mechanic skills you might want to have... at a whooping 2739 SP/hour... or 460k SP/week if you prefer. You will have a bit over 23 weeks of training at that speed at your disposal... so, say, 22 weeks of USEFUL eng/elec/mech/sci skills, for a total of a bit over 10 mil SP *useful* skills, on top of almost 2.5 mil in learning... for over 12.5 mil SP in the first HALF YEAR.
I don't know about you, but 10 mil SP in electronics/engineering/mechanic basically covers... eumh... I don't even have that many total SP in those three fields combined.
That is, if and only if you exploit at the same time the quick early training, min-maxing of the attributes and the fact +5s are trivially cheap and PLEX so easy to sell.
Then, your next step ? Why, OBVIOUSLY, now it's the time to switch to 15per/9wil/5/5/5 and buy those missing +5s !!!
About 2 more weeks of training in (and a bit under 1 mil SP in learnings), you get adv cha 3, adv wil 4 and adv per 5... SHIP/WEAPON TRAINING TIME at 2739 SP/hour most of the time, with very few exceptions, so basically another 10 mil SP over there too.
After just the full first year, the pilot will be sporting well over 23 mil SP in desirable combat and combat support skills, and be ready for its third "neural reassignment" however the new owner sees fit.
166 USD cost (2xPLEX, one used to activate, one sold for ISK ; and a 1-year sub) and 1 year wait time -> 23++ mil SP combat character.
Congrats CCP in creating the perfect character farming churn machine !
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:11:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Dani SP
current plans from *cough*atari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more.
This prompts a question - just how much influence does Atari now have over game design? |
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Sikozu Prioris
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:23:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Akita T
Stuff
/Saved to file for win
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Synex
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:30:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Dani SP
Who cares about 40, 60 or even 800k. They are achieved before 1st month. But now the noobs will get a much more bigger advantage.
current plans from *cough*atari*cough pretend to get Eve Online into a massive kids game in which willpower, sacrifice, long-term planning, and others are completely ignored and not rewarded any more.
As I stated, learn skills are good as they are now. You want faster training in the long term, train these. You prefer pew pew and bigger ships asap, dont train them but you will be penalized in the future with slower trainings.
Now they are removing all this. We are walking to a WOW 2.0...
Thats ok... more newbs to chew up.
Synex
Oursulaert Industries
Freelancer industrialist? Contact me for some exciting opportunities. |
SiJira
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:02:00 -
[123]
so at first i thought akita started trolling - then i realized ccp will actually be doing this - very sad
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Crackuji
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:11:00 -
[124]
Originally by: SiJira
so at first i thought akita started trolling - then i realized ccp will actually be doing this - very sad
Oh sss****, SiJira, MotherMoon and Armored C are all posting in the same thread
I don't think the forum can take this much fail... complete server collapse imminent... a post now from masternerdguy would probably push it over the edge
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:13:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Akita T
massive emorage whinefest
Take your meds, kid.
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Coronae Borealis
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:19:00 -
[126]
The out of the box character fades in a month. Nothing is left on that after that. Only the base attributes. And we will be able to switch them around a bit. That's awesome for everyone. Imagine how many of us has created a character, played it for 3 months and then created another one after learned the lessons of bad skill tree.
The skill sets of different bloodlines doesn't matter a single thing.
You still will not be doing 2400 sp/hour for trade skills in caldari achura... Or with nikunni(?) or was it khanid(?) cyberknigth 2400 sp/hour science skills...
Are you merins alt perhaps? Very familiar emorage....
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:27:00 -
[127]
TBH, i don't care about anything that has to do with new players.
i have enough accounts to sell and buy me several High-end skillpoint-stuffed Character to farm till the end of time and buy ETC secula seculorum.
But, tbh, i make more isk this way, and a boost of 2x skilltrain to a new character is not that "HOLY BLOODY ****ING SACRED DUCK THE SKY IS FALLING" and it's not gonna get me to buy the boxed version.
in the end, it does not add anything that is usefull to characters older than 40 days.
If CCP wants me to buy a boxed version, maybe they should make it a special account with 2 character slot and a pre-made character starting at 3m sp with all advanced learning to IV.
any other way, i can't really give a duck, and neither should you.
-----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:39:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Concorduck
TBH, i don't care about anything that has to do with new players.
I care, because I want to see more suckers players stick around for longer periods of time.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:56:00 -
[129]
Could you post some maths/calculations to give us some idea of how bad it really is for new players? I'm just surprised that moving from 9/9/9/9/3 to 9/9/8/8/5 makes such a huge difference.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:59:00 -
[130]
I thought I remember someone saying that doing the tutorial would get you more skills/sp.
yes/no?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:03:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex
Could you post some maths/calculations to give us some idea of how bad it really is for new players? I'm just surprised that moving from 9/9/9/9/3 to 9/9/8/8/5 makes such a huge difference.
9/9/8/8/5 trains better all around than my characters
I think the bit that bothers him is the drop in starting sp, and implied uselessness of new characters.
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Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:05:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex
Could you post some maths/calculations to give us some idea of how bad it really is for new players? I'm just surprised that moving from 9/9/9/9/3 to 9/9/8/8/5 makes such a huge difference.
9/9/8/8/5 trains better all around than my characters
I think the bit that bothers him is the drop in starting sp, and implied uselessness of new characters.
I dunno all of the bold caps nerdrage stuff was about how now it's better to train learning first & keep your character untouched for 3 months instead of 1. I just don't see this happening under the assumption that you'll only play for a year.
Plus, training learning skills is risky. If you quit EVE before the break-even point you never recover the loss, and even if you quit EVE a bit after the break-even point, you might have been better off enjoying the game early.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:17:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Khrillian
Plus, training learning skills is risky. If you quit EVE before the break-even point you never recover the loss, and even if you quit EVE a bit after the break-even point, you might have been better off enjoying the game early.
Training them at twice the speed makes them far less risky, though, since the break-even point is pushed quite a lot closer…
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:43:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Khrillian
Plus, training learning skills is risky. If you quit EVE before the break-even point you never recover the loss, and even if you quit EVE a bit after the break-even point, you might have been better off enjoying the game early.
Training them at twice the speed makes them far less risky, though, since the break-even point is pushed quite a lot closerą
What? Less investment in learning means a sooner break even point. "Break even" is when time you spend on learning skills + regular skills = the time you would have spent on regular skills had you not trained learning. In the trivial case, where time spent on learning is 0, the break even point is now. As you train more and more learning the break even point extends further into the future.
Suppose it takes you 1 year to break even on 1 month of learning and it takes 3 years to break even on 2 months of learning. If you quit after six months, you take a huge hit if you trained learning for 1-2 months.
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Hanns
Canadian Aerospace Defence Sector
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:00:00 -
[135]
People keep going on about older player has X amount of SP over a new player. but when it actually boils down to it, how many of this SP are actually being used in his ship at that moment in time? not and extra 60million sp thats for sure.
If having 60mill sp more than another guy flying a drake with 20mill sp really meant you actually had 80mill sp 100% dediacted to a drake yes it would be unfair but it dosent work like that, the 20mill guy can fly the drake as well as the 80mill guy.
the only advantage the 80mill sp guy has it ability to fly more ships, (depending how his skill are spread out).
Originally by: Tuxford
a new retribution bonus +1 med slot per level
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Sirez Cartwright
Caldari
Gallente Mining and Manufacturing Inc
Cloud 7 Nebulosa
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:06:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Sirez Cartwright on 11/02/2009 20:08:54
Originally by: Akita T
TL;DR
You keep your flap trap open entirely too much.
New players will adjust and adapt to the new system, regardless of how it's set up. I can tell you from experience that if I didn't have my roommate standing next to me, guiding me through the character creation process I would be completely, and utterly confused. Despite your ramblings, I still don't see how your complaints for newer players having a 'harder time' being all that catastrophic. Maybe for the people that obsess over min-maxing, I suppose. But I assure you, there's more fun to be had in EVE than 'hueg numbars'.
Originally by: Coronae Borealis
The out of the box character fades in a month. Nothing is left on that after that. Only the base attributes. And we will be able to switch them around a bit. That's awesome for everyone. Imagine how many of us has created a character, played it for 3 months and then created another one after learned the lessons of bad skill tree.
This is also a good point, so, why reinvent the wheel? Thanks, Coronae.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:07:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Khrillian
What? Less investment in learning means a sooner break even point. "Break even" is when time you spend on learning skills + regular skills = the time you would have spent on regular skills had you not trained learning. In the trivial case, where time spent on learning is 0, the break even point is now. As you train more and more learning the break even point extends further into the future.
Yes? Like I said — it makes them less risky since the break-even point is pushed closer.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:28:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Khrillian
What? Less investment in learning means a sooner break even point. "Break even" is when time you spend on learning skills + regular skills = the time you would have spent on regular skills had you not trained learning. In the trivial case, where time spent on learning is 0, the break even point is now. As you train more and more learning the break even point extends further into the future.
Yes? Like I said ł it makes them less risky since the break-even point is pushed closer.
lol disregard that for some reason i read "twice the speed" as "twice the number of learning skills" or something like that 
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Sieessenschwanz
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:20:00 -
[139]
Wait, you mean I can't turn my pre-Achura character into one with attributes equivalently awesome to that of an Achura?
That's ****ing gay. You Achura bastards have it made. I'd keep the spec forever.
<--Not a main, nor even a character with any post-creation skills.
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Sieessenschwanz
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:21:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Crackuji
Originally by: SiJira
so at first i thought akita started trolling - then i realized ccp will actually be doing this - very sad
Oh sss****, SiJira, MotherMoon and Armored C are all posting in the same thread
I don't think the forum can take this much fail... complete server collapse imminent... a post now from masternerdguy would probably push it over the edge
At least Xaen isn't here.
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:07:00 -
[141]
But learn skills are ALREADY perfect as they are. Why change something that works 100%???
Currently the break even point is really nice. Some players decide to max the learn skill, others do the opposite. This is a strategy game, and diversity is a must (imo).
With all these mods, we all are gonna do the same ---> boring.
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Don ZOLA
Caldari
Vale Tudo.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 08:58:00 -
[142]
its too easy for new people anyway.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:13:00 -
[143]
If you can see the certificates during character creation and allow that to guide new players they might be okay, but yeah without some major guidance they may get stuck with skills they don't need.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
gordon861
Minmatar
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:58:00 -
[144]
One thing I've noticed since they changed the number of starter SP is that very few newbis spend much time in frigates, they seem to move straight up to cruisers and miss out on a lot of the fun, and chances to loose your ships, when you first start playing. They are alos very close to needing the Adv Skillbooks so have a 20mil ISK bill to pay fairly soon.
The changes to the way the new skillpoints are handled might bring some of that back.
But CCP you need to think of a different name for this, NPE sounds too much like NGE which we all remember as the death of SWG, and what probably helped you subscriber numbers a lot.
Originally by: CCP Arkanon
I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donĘt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe. |
Corrock
Minmatar
SUBLIME L.L.C.
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:06:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Corrock on 12/02/2009 15:06:33
Originally by: permion
Also Aura is utterly gone. Compared to a normal MMO starting interaction/immersion... EvE is almost utterly devoid of it(interaction/immersion) because you need to first learn what's there before you can appreciate it. Aura is probably one of the few things that make it tolerable for quite a few people.
I'll miss her voice, but not her sing-song, taunting "Skill tray-ning com-pleee-ted!" when I log in after forgetting to keep track of a skill, or memories of being podded as a newb and having her laugh with glee. Come to think of it, maybe I won't miss the b@#$@#.
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Dani SP
Rupture Farms Mining
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Posted - 2009.02.12 22:45:00 -
[146]
I started with 800k but honestly there were about 100k worth ones. I mean I picked the trading career so 400k in Trade and a lot more in Social groups, and they gave me Empathy level 4 ---> LOL
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