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The reason why the "new player experience" is WORSE in M10

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:22:00 - [1] It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper, do away with the confusing bloodline, custom attributes and schools skillset choices. Then, give eveybody an even start regardless of race, with the least amount of "junk" skills, perfectly balanced attributes and the possibility to tweak them once every 6 months. That means mostly the same skills for everybody, with very few differences only depending on race, and much less skills overall. To compensate, you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, figuring that it's the same thing overall. WRONG ! First off, those starter skill packages (especially the special ops and soldier ones) gave new players a good leg into the game, skills which they will mostly want to train anyway. Not only that, but the skills themselves cost a good deal of ISK, and some current starter skillpacks have impressive equivalent ISK costs for a newbie. The end effect of this particular choice is that newbies take longer before they can actually do anything, so the "new player experience" is worse than it was very early on. Second thing, the issue of learning skills. Hey, I remember a time when I was able to say "NO, DON'T DO ALL LEARINGS FIRST TO HIGH LEVELS, priortize training whatever's necessary to fly a ship halfway decently, only then focus on higher learning levels". Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage. End effect, "new player experience", worse again. Last but not least, the starter atributes and the "respecialisation". Umm, ok, sure, 8/8/8/8/7cha is a nice enough starter distribution, and I don't really mind all that much, if all of the previous things wouldn't be an issue. BUT... you will be restricting the minimum attribute value to 5. Hmm, there are plenty of characters that can now start with 3s and 4s in their attributes, any such configurations will be impossible to attain. 9/9/9/9/3cha characters ? HA! Say goodbye to that possibility ! 14 perception 11 willpower character (minnie brutor slavechild) ? Sorry, the best you can do now is 14 per 10 wil or 15 per 9 wil... which I guess is close, but not quite there. In other words, you are effectively closing down some possibilities for players starting from this moment on. All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience. Of course, things are a bit too far done and gone to be changed, but in case they're somehow not all that final, take all of the above into consideration.
Leaving Eve	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:27:00 - [2] Hi, if anyone needs me, just bell me.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:27:00 - [3] Originally by: Leaving Eve Hi, if anyone needs me, just bell me. I see what you did there.
flashfreaking LFC Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:30:00 - [4] Im afraid I have to agree here, the man makes some very good and well documented points, altough maybe he can suggest an alternative?
Kendrix Arathan Minmatar N00bs With Guns	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:35:00 - [5] I didn't understand any of that Originally by: Akita T you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, and I think that sentence is eating it's self...
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:36:00 - [6] i dont really like that they keep increasing the starter skill points with each expansion. what makes eve different from other mmo's is that it doesnt have a define "endgame" and that the content is so much, that you can be training skills for 5 years and still not running out of possilbe skills to train. i dont see where this is heading to. make new players rush all the early content ? why ? when i started i liked my rookie ship and i enjoyed the content i could explore with it. actually, we propably dont even need rookie ships anymore now... how about we let everyone begin with enough skills to instantly fly a battleship ? it doesnt make any sense to me.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:37:00 - [7] Originally by: Kendrix Arathan I didn't understand any of that Originally by: Akita T you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, and I think that sentence is eating it's self... In caveman speak: "you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh".
Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:38:00 - [8] Akita is a breed of dog. Bow wow wow sob bow wow
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:40:00 - [9] If anything newbies need a starter package AND a period of bonus skillpoints that they can use to specialize. The average SP among the pilots trying to "meet and greet" you in 0.0 and low-sec is only rising. Either that or some sort of time-limited SP bonus to the people buying the new boxed set (since the problem isn't people having low-skill alts but the fact that a new player will have to spend a very large amount of time getting any of their characters up to snuff).
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:41:00 - [10] Originally by: Akita T It all starts with a decent enough idea on paper, do away with the confusing bloodline, custom attributes and schools skillset choices. Then, give eveybody an even start regardless of race, with the least amount of "junk" skills, perfectly balanced attributes and the possibility to tweak them once every 6 months. That means mostly the same skills for everybody, with very few differences only depending on race, and much less skills overall. To compensate, you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, figuring that it's the same thing overall. WRONG ! First off, those starter skill packages (especially the special ops and soldier ones) gave new players a good leg into the game, skills which they will mostly want to train anyway. Not only that, but the skills themselves cost a good deal of ISK, and some current starter skillpacks have impressive equivalent ISK costs for a newbie. The end effect of this particular choice is that newbies take longer before they can actually do anything, so the "new player experience" is worse than it was very early on. Second thing, the issue of learning skills. Hey, I remember a time when I was able to say "NO, DON'T DO ALL LEARINGS FIRST TO HIGH LEVELS, priortize training whatever's necessary to fly a ship halfway decently, only then focus on higher learning levels". Now, I am forced to admit, in the new system, YOU SHOULD TRAIN MOSTLY LEARNINGS UP TO 1.6 MIL SP, because otherwise you'll be at a severe disadvantage. End effect, "new player experience", worse again. Last but not least, the starter atributes and the "respecialisation". Umm, ok, sure, 8/8/8/8/7cha is a nice enough starter distribution, and I don't really mind all that much, if all of the previous things wouldn't be an issue. BUT... you will be restricting the minimum attribute value to 5. Hmm, there are plenty of characters that can now start with 3s and 4s in their attributes, any such configurations will be impossible to attain. 9/9/9/9/3cha characters ? HA! Say goodbye to that possibility ! 14 perception 11 willpower character (minnie brutor slavechild) ? Sorry, the best you can do now is 14 per 10 wil or 15 per 9 wil... which I guess is close, but not quite there. In other words, you are effectively closing down some possibilities for players starting from this moment on. All in all, I think you can all agree, this is definetely NOT a better new player experience. Of course, things are a bit too far done and gone to be changed, but in case they're somehow not all that final, take all of the above into consideration. have you played it yet? have you?

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:48:00 - [11] Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/02/2009 23:50:40 double post
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:50:00 - [12] the older players get an unfair advantage (which they would deserve if you robbed them of 1.2 million sp) of 10 extra atrribute points newer players can never get. and new players get 3 more points off the bat and and max out learning skills in 2 weeks. do it CCP, If this is the direction you want to tak eeve, go the whole 5 miles and KILL OFF LEARNING. This is bull shiiiit also I don't see why why more than 5 can be unmovable... maybe you should choose your ancestry which gives you a huge boost, and that becomes your base. ancestry should mean something, even if race shouldn't. maybe the races should be equal but the ancestries should not.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Heroldyn i dont really like that they keep increasing the starter skill points with each expansion. lrn2rd. They are DECREASING them, and giving faster training up to the point where it would be (allegedly) on a break-even point with the older 800k SP starter chars. Originally by: flashfreaking Im afraid I have to agree here, the man makes some very good and well documented points, altough maybe he can suggest an alternative? Eh... something that would not be too far from what they are trying to do ? Add all L4 basic and all L3 advanced learnings (645255 + 524000 = 391530 SP) to the current ~60k people start with (so, start with ~450k SP instead of the previous ~810k), keep the "double learning speed" up to 1 mil SP or so only. New users should basically breeze through the very early phases with ACTUAL training speeds up to 4 times higher on average than current new players, then get turned down to normal speeds sooner rather than later, and overall, they shouldn't get any advantages over people that DID start with learnings (without actually needing to do that). Of course, the problem still remains that for OPTIMAL long-term results, they should still train learnings, but then again it's not such a critical issue with the "turbo training" set so much shorter. Respecification minimum attributes conditions changed to : * sum of lowest three attributes to be 14 or above * sum of lowest two attributes to be 8 or above * lowest single attribute to 3 or above ...so that all current starter choices are still possible, and many similar ones get opened up. Quite frankly, I would have prefered if the ONLY changes would have been the ADDITION of most (if not all) learning skills to all starter school skillpacks. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Genya Arikaido	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Akita T Wall of Text of DoomÖ TL;DR Help me move to Iceland!
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.02.09 23:56:00 - [15] Originally by: MotherMoon the older players get an unfair advantage (which they would deserve if you robbed them of 1.2 million sp) of 10 extra atrribute points newer players can never get. and new players get 3 more points off the bat and and max out learning skills in 2 weeks. do it CCP, Because giving older players a permanent SP rate advantage over new characters is exactly what this game needs? "Your average guy roaming 0.0 has a 60 mil SP advantage on you, and it's only going to increase forever and forever" ...that's just silly. Older players already have the advantage that they both have a massive SP advantage AND they've cemented themselves into every established market and profession. If Advanced training skills are going out they should do so across the board with no advantages given to older players. Anyone that has had advanced training skills for more than a year has ALREADY gotten back the skillpoints they spent and more. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:00:00 - [16] If Older players aren't flying caps yet, they're gonna be overstomped by 50 merlins.
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:02:00 - [17] How about setting all the learning skills (except learning) to 5, everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst. Then hide current learning skills and never talk about them again! Put in some different ones. Perhaps like "Amarr Frigate" +10% faster skilltime per lvl if you are learning one of the following skills: Amarr Frigate, Small Energy Turrets, Small Beam Laser Specialisation or Small Pulse Laser Specialisation. New player would start with a few ranks in their races Frigate Learning skill. Make a decent starter package or at least put in a strong pointer for new player how and what to skill.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: MotherMoon the older players get an unfair advantage (which they would deserve if you robbed them of 1.2 million sp) of 10 extra atrribute points newer players can never get. and new players get 3 more points off the bat and and max out learning skills in 2 weeks. do it CCP, Because giving older players a permanent SP rate advantage over new characters is exactly what this game needs? no it's not what it needs. it need to just take it away, but then what do you give the older players who just lost 600,000 sp?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:02:00 - [19] Originally by: MotherMoon [...]honestly advanced learning skills should be REMOVED from the game[...] Or, just give all starter characters L4 in all 11 learning skills (61+53)*45255 = 950,355 SP Since training any of them to L5 would entail a year to a "break-even" point, actually training them early on would be nearly pointless. Of course, give all characters the same skills at those levels, if they don't already have them, and set an EVE-wide double-speed bonus for the non-granted SP equivalent, so everybody is happy and doesn't feel cheated. THEN you can remove all traces of them from the markets and hangars (with ISK compensation in case they are removed from players' posession - also, grant 4.5 mil ISK to the wallets of characters for each advanced learning skills already trained).
Kendrix Arathan Minmatar N00bs With Guns	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kendrix Arathan I didn't understand any of that Originally by: Akita T you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, and I think that sentence is eating it's self... In caveman speak: "you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh". I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen and then call me a cave man... I am interested in the new "new player experience" but I will find out about it and discuss it else where as i fear I have already suffered brain damage from trying to read what you type. also with the amount of nerd rage your putting out i don't want to get caught in the arterial spray when you pop a blood vessel...

Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Kendrix Arathan stuff Go home, I am the troll in this thread, I got it covered.
Zey Nadar Gallente Stormwatch Galactic	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Concorduck If Older players aren't flying caps yet, they're gonna be overstomped by 50 merlins. With civilian guns.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Kendrix Arathan Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kendrix Arathan I didn't understand any of that Originally by: Akita T you increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count, and I think that sentence is eating it's self... In caveman speak: "you start with 60k SP now, hurr, and train twice as fast, growl, but when you get to 1.6 mil SP, you stop training twice as fast, duuh". I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen and then call me a cave man... I am interested in the new "new player experience" but I will find out about it and discuss it else where as i fear I have already suffered brain damage from trying to read what you type. also with the amount of nerd rage your putting out i don't want to get caught in the arterial spray when you pop a blood vessel... IB Leaving Eve
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Kendrix Arathan Quote: increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen It was gramatically correct (ok, probably missing one "comma" in the middle, but that's about it), also logically correct (double training speed granted to you until you reach a certain SP total which is twice the old starter SP total), so I can't be held responsable for your inability to comprehend it. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker everyone who already had sp in the skills will get 2 times sp until the amount is reimburst. brilliant. Honestly eve could change completly, as long as my real loss PvP is around I wouldn't care if all players got all skills in the game. I still think they should remove the advanced learning skills and introduce bigger implants, so the more isk you make the faster you train, instead of the longer you have played the faster you increase your skills.
permion	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:10:00 - [26] Also Aura is utterly gone. Compared to a normal MMO starting interaction/immersion... EvE is almost utterly devoid of it(interaction/immersion) because you need to first learn what's there before you can appreciate it. Aura is probably one of the few things that make it tolerable for quite a few people.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kendrix Arathan Quote: increase the training speed to double of normal up to twice the former starter SP count I love how you post one of the worst grammatical abortions I have ever seen It was gramatically correct (ok, probably missing one "comma" in the middle, but that's about it), also logically correct (double training speed granted to you until you reach a certain SP total which is twice the old starter SP total), so I can't be held responsable for your inability to comprehend it. so, can you double the stuff you were about to send me to twice the former starter stuff value? ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Concorduck so, can you double the stuff you were about to send me to twice the former starter stuff value? Well, two times zero is still zero, so yeah, sure, why not _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:14:00 - [29] Edited by: Pac SubCom on 10/02/2009 00:15:20 Originally by: Akita T WRONG ! That's right. And we're getting DAMNED FED UP with the negativity of those who are so FULL OF ANXIETIES like you are. SHUT THE ** UP ALREADY! Your logic is worth less than **. See things a little more positively. We don't fall for your fears. And neither should you. Breathe. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.10 00:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Pac SubCom We don't fall for your fears. Simple math and basic logic = fear ? Fail ! _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK



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