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New Dev Blog: POS Exploit

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Raymon James Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:20:00 - [61] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg My concern is the last paragraph stating tha tyou will now actively check for market anomolies. Dropping this hint is only going to make it harder to detect duping, because then dupers are only going to shuffle their assets around to make the dent on the market smaller. well to be honest the market already tends to dispers items fairly easily(a number of traiders specialise in looking at multiple regions to see whats a surplus in that region, in fact most of the profits in npc tradegood stations exists from moveing items to diferent regions. besides what finaly broke the market on this was when they got greedy and set up literaly hundreds of poses to exploit this just to make ISK.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:25:00 - [62] golf clap very thorough, professional, and insightful, this is an adequate substitute to the exploration blog for the time being
KingCappo Seigers of Doom	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:29:00 - [63] Edited by: KingCappo on 10/02/2009 19:28:41 Very nice blog. Do you have exact numbers on what percent of the market supply for each mineral came from this exploit? The charts seem to indicate somewhere around 10-20% or so, but it is kinda hard to read.
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:33:00 - [64] Congrats to CCP for nailing this before it became even worse. Can we get a dev blog about 2 - 3 months out that can detail any more observable market fallout? ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Anaesthera Gallente AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:41:00 - [65] Fascinating read, but I may have to read it twice to understand it all. Question....don't you guys have a way to run a query that, for example, checks the top 20 ISK earning corps and individuals? And then check exactly why they are in the top? A corp making trillions of isk has got to raise a red flag.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:41:00 - [66] Hooray for CCP. So much for hiding details of exploits. Will you be doing this with future patches or go back to the "several exploits have been removed making EVE a better place for all"? -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Raymon James Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Cadde Edited by: Cadde on 10/02/2009 17:52:00 Page 1 on a long blog! Good stuff EDIT: I would also like to know where all the generated isk went, as stated in the blog: "Between 6 and 12 TRILLION isk has been gained from this exploit" Just to put it into perspective, that is between 6,000 and 12,000 BILLION isk, enough to purchase and decently fit about: or enough to buy 18000-36000 Plexes.
Raymon James Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state." This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too. . . . where were you when BoB was disbanded? this is a TOTAL PvP game, you better bloody well know what the people under you are doing. Especialy when they are embarking on something on this scale.
Raymon James Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:50:00 - [69] Originally by: Anaesthera Fascinating read, but I may have to read it twice to understand it all. Question....don't you guys have a way to run a query that, for example, checks the top 20 ISK earning corps and individuals? And then check exactly why they are in the top? A corp making trillions of isk has got to raise a red flag. the problem is that a corp/aloiance raising trillions would be constantly raising a red flag just from doing normal legal operations.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:51:00 - [70] Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state." This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too. If you are director then you are supposed to know what your guys are up to. That out of the way, if it would have been only one POS then you might be able to spin yourself out of the situation. Assuming you are actually innocent. You know the usual procedures of escalating and so on. However, situation where POS is erected extra for exploiting it's highly unlikely that directors are clueless poor victims. If you are worried about the possibility then I would suggest not allowing personal towers for memebers. The roles involved in that are security risk if you can't even trust your memebers not to exploit.

Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state." This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too. Welcome to corporate responsibility!
DirtBagSuperstar	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:55:00 - [72] One thing I would like to know is how does this affects the total amount of materials produced versus the amount consumed on a daily basis. For example if before the bug fix 10 mil units of ferrogel were produced daily and 9 mil units being consumed per day, then there is a surplus of material causing the price to stabilize at a reasonable value. However if 1.5 mil units were being plucked out of thin air a day, we now have a shortage of .5 mil units a day. I believe that would be a better indication than .7% of the yearly trade.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:57:00 - [73] Originally by: DevBlog The opening action on our part regarding the exploit included the total destruction of all the POS complexes involved. This entailed flying to each one and basically nuking everything in sight - a fireworks show of epic proportions but with no witnesses except the GMs in the demolition team. CCP you are completely utterly and hopeless noobs! When a chance to see things blow up on such a massive scale you should ALWAYS have Fraps running. You could have had a video with hundred of thousand of views in your YouTube Channel. Let that be a lesson to you! Thank you for the detailed blog. Oversight is everything in this day and age, good to hear you are tightening the reigns.
Melonar Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 - [74] They say that they went out and destroyed the offending POS's with brute force, and that only the GMs involved got to see it. Could we perhaps get a video recording of high profile cases like this in the future? I'm sure everyone would love to watch a major smackdown in high-quality video. It would be a good way to entice people to play by showing that CCP truly cares about the universe.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 - [75] Thank you for the detailed blog CCP, and thank you Abrazzar for informing the clueless if the lost tech 2 BPOs will be reseeded through the lottery or not. I fear though, that your work is far from over. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 - [76] As an excel jockey by trade, it would be hippocritical to get on CCP's case for not catching the bug earlier given how it was being caused (to them, it looked like situation normal). I think the response is appropriate, good job CCP. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
Kristel Elke Amarr Addikt Industries Codemonkey Construction Project	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:02:00 - [77] WALL OF TEXT take a writing class, you could have written this in 4 paragraphs.
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:20:00 - [78] Nice blog! I can confirm that high-end minerals and advanced materials are still going up in price, and market manipulation is fun and addictive ;) It would be nice to know which T2 BPO were removed from the game. I'm curious to trace 3 Conflagration M BPO, and a few Aurora M BPO's... (If you have one, feel free to mail me and I'll add you to my list!) The impact on the markets of the exploit are now being felt- removal of the significant quantities they supplied from 'non-existant dysprosium etc' has meant that those quantities now must be supplied by existant dysprosium etc. Demand is still high, supply of Dysprosium and other high end Moon minerals is low (especially given recent turmoil in Dysprosium moon areas and wars affecting supply). Effectively, higher prices for T2 is here for sometime, unless new supplies of the higher moon minerals are seeded... Arithron Vote Arithron for CSM! Check out my thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=899358
Valeria Crossroads Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:21:00 - [79] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Welcome to corporate responsibility! So you are saying that if an employee of ccp (for example) commits a crime that automatically their ceo and other heads are criminals too and thus need to go to jail. I am so glad you do not belong their the rank of judges in rl. Since its still the case in rl that you are only guilty if you have committed a crime yourself and that you cannot be punished for crimes someone else did. My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too.
Disteeler Segunda Fundacion Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:27:00 - [80] Thanks. We are back to happy days :)

Valeria Crossroads Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:30:00 - [81] Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 10/02/2009 20:32:08 Originally by: Raymon James . . . where were you when BoB was disbanded? this is a TOTAL PvP game, you better bloody well know what the people under you are doing. Especialy when they are embarking on something on this scale. You cannot and should not be punished for crimes someone else did. It ridiculous that if you are a CEO of a company and some employee commits a crime that you also should go to jail. Only the real guilty should be punished. What you are saying would never hold up in a real court case, cause it must be proved that without any doubt a person knew what was going on. And in our setup no isk goes through the corp wallets. That ccp produces faulty code is their problem. Punishing people who did not know that a certain exploit existed is unacceptable. My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:30:00 - [82] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state." This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too. Welcome to corporate responsibility! Run away! -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Omnia Opera	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:38:00 - [83] a quite satisfactory read. Thanks.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:57:00 - [84] a great job on the blog good read. in light of the full numbers u now have, does the dev team and the good doctor still beleive that the current supply of dyspro and promethium is enought to fulfill demand or do u see t2 price soring back to there pre-invention levels. also taking into account the rise in players many of us expect to see once the boxed version of eve hits the stores. i personnaly think alchemy was a useless stop gap measure. and the real fix is to swap some dyspro and prom for thulium and neodyspro in some of the complex reactions.
blkmajik ZiTek Deepspace Explorations	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:59:00 - [85] Are there any plans to introduce anything to fill the gaps left by exploited materials leaving the market? It's obvious that any analysis of the success of invention before December is now skewed, since the mass-scale exploitation coincided with that time-frame. Since December, prices for Prom/Dyspro have been skyrocketing. I know Alchemy was intended to help, but its obviously not making a dent. Just look at the price of Cadmium. Even with Cadmium shooting sky-high, Prom/Dyspro and all byproducts continue to climb even faster, and all thats happening with Alchemy is that more participants are being forced out because of the increasing overhead costs. Now even t2 ship prices are jumping like crazy! Will Alchemy get buffed or more R64 moons added to offset the void? Or are we returning to the days of 800m isk Hulks and 500m Command Ships?
Mr Xanatos	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:02:00 - [86] I started a thread on this already but I will repost here: A week after the exploit came into the public light, a Veteran player told me how one of his friends had made $200,000 USD (yes I said two hundred thousand United States Dollars) from the exploit by buying selling the Isk he cheated out of the game and selling it for real money through Ebay and Paypal. I laughed it off as nonsense and played on, that is until a I saw the new Dev Blog a few minutes ago. The Dev Blog posted today says Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our estimate is that the exploiting parties made between six and 12 trillion ISK from this exploit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I decided to crunch some numbers, 6,000,000,000,000 Isk (6 Trillion) divided by 700,000,000 Isk (700 Million Isk, average GTC price as of today) = 8571.429 GTCÆs 1 GTC Approx = $35 USD 8571.429 X $35 US Per GTC = $300,000 USD So if my calculations are correct (please feel free to correct any errors I made) then the Isk exploited turns into somewhere between $300,000 USD -> $600,000 USD. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our logs also show that there were only three corporations that had 88% of the 6.7 trillion ISK profit from the exploit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 88% of $300,000 USD -> $600,000 USD is equal to $264,000 USD -> $528,000 USD. And to think I laughed at this Veteran player when he said his friend had made over $200,000 US from the exploit. PS, I hope IÆm completely wrong in my numbers so if you find I had one to many Zeros or something please post here and shoot a whole in my math. Thanks
Malovich Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Valeria Crossroads Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Welcome to corporate responsibility! So you are saying that if an employee of ccp (for example) commits a crime that automatically their ceo and other heads are criminals too and thus need to go to jail. I am so glad you do not belong their the rank of judges in rl. Since its still the case in rl that you are only guilty if you have committed a crime yourself and that you cannot be punished for crimes someone else did. If the employee committed the crime on company time using company assets granted to them by said CEO/directors you can bet the police would be talking a long, hard look at them. If an executive at one company is found to have committed fraud, yes, the other executives will be investigated as well. Even if you are ultimately found innocent, it's a massive disruption to say the least...much the same as appealing a ban and getting it overturned. Where your analogy falls down is that IRL you have a home self and a work self. When you leave work, you are no longer working. In Eve, however, you are always working and everything you do reflects on your corporation. There's no "off the clock" if you're logged in. If you are concerned about people exploiting and getting you in hot water as well, don't make them a director. If you make them a director, then you have assumed the risk of them harming the corporation and yourself.
Sacul Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:05:00 - [88] Now the market speculation in Jita might come to a halt. Well one can hope
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:18:00 - [89] I'll read it again.. but lets just say there are some holes in this report.
Valeria Crossroads Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:22:00 - [90] Originally by: Malovich If the employee committed the crime on company time using company assets granted to them by said CEO/directors you can bet the police would be talking a long, hard look at them. I have nothing against an investigation to look if people higher up knew whats going on. But thats not what ccp did. They simply banned people cause they were a director. If they knew or not did not matter: all were banned. So, maybe, innocent people were banned. Originally by: Malovich If you are concerned about people exploiting and getting you in hot water as well, don't make them a director. If you make them a director, then you have assumed the risk of them harming the corporation and yourself. The people i talk about in my corp are no directors at all, They just have personal posses, which they pay themselves and get all income themselves. We are freelancers what we make is our own (as much as possible). And this game is full of spies, scammers, pirates, assassins, corp thieves etc. Its almost impossible to keep them out. What you seem to be OK with is that fact that, if some bad guy/girl finds an exploit and you do not know it was even possible, its OK to be banned even though you have done nothing wrong yourself and have always worked within the ULA. I am no bug hunter, i just play the game, its not my task to constantly look for exploits. If i find a bug i will report it, like i have done many times in the past. But if i am not aware of a certain bug/exploit i should not be punished for it if someone else missuses it.



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