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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:04:00 -
[1]
CCP Lilith, Director of Customer Support, has just published a new blog for your perusal. Researched and composed by three different teams, "War makes thieves and peace hangs them" is an extremely extensive report on the recent POS Exploit. CCP Pleognost details how POS works and how the bug entered the game (and was removed). CCP Diagoras and CCP Dr.EyjoG detail the effects the exploit had on the economy, and Grimmi outlines how customer support handled previous reports and the current exploiters.
This extremely important blog should be read by everyone with a vested interest in this exploit, however, we do ask that you post your responses responsibly.
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Khanis Zyl
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:23:00 -
[2]
....
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Vyger
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:24:00 -
[3]
Thanks for the comprehensive analysis.
Shame about those T2 BPOs. I'm guessing they won't get re-introduced back into the game.
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Flexible Professional
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:24:00 -
[4]
wow, his has to be the massivest blog i've seen! skimming the blg it seems a lot of effort went into researching this exploit, thanks :)
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Kronos Tempestus
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:32:00 -
[5]
reserved
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teji
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:42:00 -
[6]
Nothing about any drug reactions being exploited?
Also, less t2 bpos in the game the better. Nice devblog. |
Slobodanka
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: teji Nothing about any drug reactions being exploited?
Youz dont readz much... do youz? |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:50:00 -
[8]
My concern is the last paragraph stating tha tyou will now actively check for market anomolies.
Dropping this hint is only going to make it harder to detect duping, because then dupers are only going to shuffle their assets around to make the dent on the market smaller.
For ex: instead of selling the advanced reactions straight to the market, they'll only sell 10% of what they produce directly, then organize requirements contracts across EVE.
idk, could be a problem.
"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"
Awesome quote btw! Good Job in killing those cheaters! ----------------- Friends Forever |
Letrange
Minmatar Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:53:00 -
[9]
Excellent report. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Dr.E was probably using using colorful Icelandic language when he saw the mountain of work that landed on his desk with this exploit just when he was scheduled to deliver a QEN. Any idea on the possible, tentative, conjectural probability of a QEN coming out before Apocrypha? (I wouldn't want to jinks things by asking for a firm date).
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:55:00 -
[10]
Name and shame a bit moar please. Dddrama awaits.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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CCP Diagoras
C C P
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Posted - 2009.02.10 16:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: teji Nothing about any drug reactions being exploited?
Also, less t2 bpos in the game the better. Nice devblog.
Booster materials were also produced using this, as mentioned in the blog. When looking at market impact we decided to focus on the moon materials in the blog, as that was what affected the most number of players by quite some margin.
There were 13 reactors in an exploited state that were producing booster materials. _______________ CCP Diagoras Research and Statistics |
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Joram McRory
eXceed Inc. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:03:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Joram McRory on 10/02/2009 17:04:17 A detailed and comprehensive analysis - thank you
But
There is sense that you are playing down the impacts. I can see the overall market effects were minor in statistical terms, but thatÆs like saying statistically in the UK you are very unlikely to be murdered.
Statistically it's true, but the effects on you are fairly significant if you are one of the few!!
The parallel here is the extreme wealth that was generated for a small minority - even if it was just a couple of entities benefiting û may have had a significant impact on the game.
I say ômay have hadö because your analysis does not cover the political and warfare impacts of the exploit. How many systems were taken or defended by the exploiters (or their friends)? How many ships were lost in combat to fleets funded by this? How many posses were seiged and destroyed? Were any large scale changes to the political landscape of 0.0 supported or prevented by the utilisation of this 6 to 12 Trillion isk???
Even though you say that much of the isk was sold for real life money û what use did the buyers of that isk make of it and to what extent did that impact the game?
This is the only bit that really matters, the rest is only of interest to market traders and builders. The ôrealö eve players are much more concerned over who has killed who and which alliance has taken/lost space.
Will there be a ôpart 2ö of this blog looking into the important aspects or do you think this wall of stats and graphs will keep us happy?
Joram
My Photography site |
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:04:00 -
[13]
Thanks for this, this is a good write up.
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Dolgozo Lany
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:04:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dolgozo Lany on 10/02/2009 17:05:17
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
There were 13 reactors in an exploited state that were producing booster materials.
Were you able to retrieve all information about reactors which were not in the bugged status at the moment of your data analysis, only prior to the analysis?
E.g.: Corporations stopping and dismantling reactors in this bugged status in within that week, when the exploit report fell into the 'cracks'.
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jam6549
Paladines
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:05:00 -
[15]
first page!
gonna read it now
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:08:00 -
[16]
Blog was comprehensive and well written. Good work. Though, i still do not believe anything in your privacy policy prohibits you from releasing the character names of those involved since character names are in no way personal information. |
Vir Hellnamin
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:09:00 -
[17]
blog-shot!
Devs, has there been any consideration for open bug report data-base, since it might motivate to post bug(exploits) more since you can actually concentrate / add to a bug report?
I recall some talks from times ago, but haven't seen anything after that. |
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CCP Diagoras
C C P
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dolgozo Lany Were you able to retrieve all information about reactors which were not in the bugged status at the moment of your data analysis, only prior to the analysis?
E.g.: Corporations stopping and dismantling reactors in this bugged status in within that week, when the exploit report fell into the 'cracks'.
After discovering the exploit, we checked a recent database backup (if I recall correctly, it was less than a week old at the time) to get a full list. We have also checked older backups when we were working out how long it had been going on for. So, it isn't possible for people to have gotten away with this by taking their starbases down as soon as they heard it had been discovered. |
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:10:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Random Womble on 10/02/2009 17:15:54 Edited by: Random Womble on 10/02/2009 17:14:47
Originally by: Vyger Thanks for the comprehensive analysis.
Shame about those T2 BPOs. I'm guessing they won't get re-introduced back into the game.
CCP (well a Dev) did state that if any T2 BPOs were removed from the game they would be given back out again to maintain a balance however some how unfortunately i dont see them keeping their word.
And i believe that statement was made with invention either allready out or atleast soon to be relesed.
Edit: Perhaps some (not all obviously) could be given out as prizes of the next alliance tourny might make for intresting prizes since it would be reintroducing BPOs not creating new ones.
Edit2: it would aslo be nice to get a response on if they will remain permanently removed or if they will be reintroduced in some way. |
Cadde
Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:14:00 -
[20]
Page 1 on a long blog!
Good stuff |
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Kronos Tempestus
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:16:00 -
[21]
Did the mods eat my 'reserved' post? That was not nice.
Hopefully this new blog will bring closure to this POS exploit issue (shall we call it POSgate? Silogate?).
I for one appreciate CCP's effort in explaining to the community the why, when and how of the exploit.
I am sure you had tons of work to produce the blog and that it impacted the day-to-day operations at CCP.
I do think that this was the correct approach to handling the issue and hope EVE is now a better place for all.
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Demeterus
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Demeterus on 10/02/2009 17:19:50
Originally by: CCP Lilith The total number of users banned in relation to the exploit of POS reactors is 134.
That is not the same as 134 accounts. A user can of course have multiple accounts. Are there any numbers on how many accounts were banned?
Or is it none of our business? :)
Edit: And kudos to CCP for this extensive devblog. It went beyong my expectations of what would come.
--- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs? |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:19:00 -
[23]
"...removed from the game...over 30 Tech II BPOs..."
Why? Now those BPO's are missing. Shouldn't they get redistributed somehow instead?
Interesting write-up, thanks.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:19:00 -
[24]
Spectacular blog. IMO this is what most players were looking for: a detailed account of the entire process from discovery to punishment. I for one am really happy with your efforts with respect to the published blog. Great work.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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GM Grimmi
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Demeterus
That is not the same as 134 accounts. A user can of course have multiple accounts. Are there any numbers on how many accounts were banned?
Sorry for the mix up - this does indeed mean 134 accounts. GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master
EVE CSS |
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Originally by: Demeterus
That is not the same as 134 accounts. A user can of course have multiple accounts. Are there any numbers on how many accounts were banned?
Sorry for the mix up - this does indeed mean 134 accounts.
We've updated the blog to accurately reflect the type of bans that were issued. |
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jam6549
Paladines
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:30:00 -
[27]
thats some heavy stuff |
Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:40:00 -
[28]
Nice report. This is the correct way to handle crap like this. Everyone knows that **** happens but you can handle it good or bad way ;)
Also yeay for less BPOs in the game. Even the playing field. Now just need to hope that next exploit cash is also invested in to t2 BPOs :D
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:43:00 -
[29]
An informative, comprehensive, and very well written and researched blog. Thank you CCP, and an extra big thank you to the hard working folks who contributed to this report. Another big thank you to the instruments of justice against the dirty exploiting scum.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:45:00 -
[30]
From the numbers in the blog I conclude that those reactors produced materials which normally would need 128 dysprosium/promethium moons.
So the amount of 128 dys/pro moons were pumped into the market for quite a while and especially when the numbers for the alchemy-stuff were fixed. The whole alchemy is then based on faulty numbers.
Is there any chance that alchemy will be revisited in the future? Maybe different input/output amount or the <0.3 system restriction relaxed?
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Captain Politics
JotunHeim Hird X13 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:46:00 -
[31]
Could you please tell us which tech 2 bpo were removed from the game ?
This is pretty important for the producers in the tech 2 market.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:47:00 -
[32]
I noticed a plural on the removed Titans. How many of those were scrapped in the clean-up process? |
Casiella Truza
White Rose Society
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:48:00 -
[33]
Looks like somebody just dumped a bunch of charts on the market, avg price will tank |
Cadde
Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:51:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Cadde on 10/02/2009 17:52:00 Page 1 on a long blog!
Good stuff
EDIT:
I would also like to know where all the generated isk went, as stated in the blog:
"Between 6 and 12 TRILLION isk has been gained from this exploit"
Just to put it into perspective, that is between 6,000 and 12,000 BILLION isk, enough to purchase and decently fit about:
- 1500 - 3000 carriers or...
- 750 - 1500 dreadnaughts or...
- 200 - 400 motherships or...
- 90 - 180 titans
Now i know there wasn't a single group of players that benefited from the exploit. But i want to know just how much effect it has had beyond the market. Lets guesstimate that 5% of the exploited materials went to a single alliance fighting another alliance and they utilized this slice to build an offensive fleet. I am also, for simplicity's sake going to round off the gain from this at 5% off 8 trillion, i am just taking numbers out of my behind to get a mental picture. That is 400 billion isk in favor of the alliance who benefits from it. They can field a fleet like this:
- 11 carriers
- 22 dreadnaughts
- 2 motherships
- 2 titans
That is ONTOP of what they can already bring such as battleship support and any other capital ships that possess. Such a fleet can cause isk damage to another alliance up in the trillion mark if fielded under a capable FC.
Lets just play with this a little bit more, if 50% of all exploited materials where used for capitals (10 fleets of the above composition) and each fleet could cause 5 times their worth in billions (400 billion * 5 = 2 trillion isk) that could potentially cause 20 trillion isk in damage to other alliances not gaining from the exploited materials.
I am really stretching far and wide with my numbers, that is where you CCP come in. To show us roughly what kind of effect this has had on the elements not directly related to the eve market. I am in no way knowledgeable enough on the inner workings of 0.0 space and large alliances etc. But as far as i can tell, the major element in 0.0 isn't the market itself but rather the ships an alliance can field for defense and offense.
I will just stop being silly now with my assumptions and speculations and hope that CCP will revise how this affected the player base beyond the market.
//Cadde
SECOND EDIT: Left a few numbers that wasn't supposed to be there.
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Khanak Hryad
Amarr We See Dead People
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:53:00 -
[35]
/me applauds CCP on both taking care of the exploit and actually telling us about it.
We all notice those little notes at the bottom of patch notes that are something along the lines of "Some exploits have been fixed to make the EVE universe a better place." But we never actually know what they are. Understandable, because you don't want to give players information about the exploit so some may try to replicate it in a different way....but all the same, a respectable percentage of the players would love to know just what's been fixed, if only for personal knowledge and to say "ahh, that's what happened, glad it was fixed."
So well done, CCP, well done indeed.
/* This be a sig */ Free bottle of rum to the first 3 who mod this sig!
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Mithrandir TFC
Gallente Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:53:00 -
[36]
Very in depth explanation, thank you.
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Sergei Turov
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:56:00 -
[37]
Will the t2 bpos be reseeded through the lottery? ---- Meh |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 17:58:00 -
[38]
That's the longest dev blog I've read while drunk. Satisfactory.
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Crazy Ivan88
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:00:00 -
[39]
Did the players who report this issue use the "exploit". If they used it after they reported it, it seems like since the petitions were closed it was safe for these players to assume it was functioning correctly.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sergei Turov Will the t2 bpos be reseeded through the lottery?
No.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis We will not reseed the Tech 2 original blueprints. The lottery has been gone for a long time and invention has taken its place.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:02:00 -
[41]
and this is why CCP >>> all other mmo companies
I am grateful for this openess and its good for Eve too. ___________________________________
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:06:00 -
[42]
That's one hell of a dev blog, good job guys. |
Clever Drake
Minmatar The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:21:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tiuwaz and this is why CCP >>> all other mmo companies
I am grateful for this openess and its good for Eve too.
I concur. This bug affected everyone in game by some degree, and it seems as though they treated it fairly and with logic.
I do wish to request the fraps of the Demolition team. That had to be amazing to see. |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:21:00 -
[44]
Well done.
That said, anything less would have been disastrous for the "general publics" trust/faith in CCP.
But top marks for covering so many angles, and in such detail.
And once again CCP shows they are not afraid to tell it as it is.
I really don't know of any other MMO company who'd dare much more than a "Bug found, bug fixed".
/hats off.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:22:00 -
[45]
MOTHER OF GOD! |
Rieger VaunBraun
Crazy Canucks
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:24:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tiuwaz and this is why CCP >>> all other mmo companies
I am grateful for this openess and its good for Eve too.
Agreed. This kind of explanation simply doesn't happen from any other MMO other than EVE. Thanks for your hard work on getting this together and your openess in telling us exactly what when on.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:24:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 10/02/2009 18:25:29 Great Dev Blog! One of the best ever in thoroughness and very informative.
My one (minor) gripe is the comparison of the market impact to the total market in EVE. Yes, it is true that the EVE market is huge and resilient even to something of this scale and that is worth noting. However, the total market is not affected by the exploit...or not very directly. This impacted the T2 market and ships most of all as was noted in the blog. Comparing the effect to the more isolated T2 market I think would show a dramatically higher percentage than 0.7%.
As for the people who want more accounting of who was killed by ships that somehow were produced/benefited from all of this I cannot see how that would be possible. Just how can far down the line do you go? How many people innocently bought stuff produced this way? What penalties would you mete out? How could you possibly undo any damage done some months down the road?
I think CCP did everything they could in this respect and then some. Obviously some damage to innocent players occurred one way or another but we are all still here and kicking so time to move on.
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Wardo21
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:25:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Clever Drake I do wish to request the fraps of the Demolition team. That had to be amazing to see.
If they have one, they should post it to Youtube. "Penalties for Exploits"
@CCP: Thanks for the report. Don't take anyone too seriously that starts to complain about how long it took... (they will) |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:26:00 -
[49]
I can't think of any other gaming company that has this kind of transparency. Very cool stuff, and a great read.
There is one small part that bothered me, however: Quote: Others that were found to be involved in moving the exploited goods and laundering the ISK also received bans for their part.
Is it possible that some of these people were banned for being caught up, unwittingly, in this issue?
A production manager in a corporation says, "Hey you, we need some X moved from this tower over to Jita/Rens/wherever." So someone else in the corporation moves the stuff, not knowing that they are getting involved in an exploit mechanic, then they later get smacked with the ban hammer. |
TornSoul
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin Is it possible that some of these people were banned for being caught up, unwittingly, in this issue?
A production manager in a corporation says, "Hey you, we need some X moved from this tower over to Jita/Rens/wherever." So someone else in the corporation moves the stuff, not knowing that they are getting involved in an exploit mechanic, then they later get smacked with the ban hammer.
I think it is way more likely that a lot of "border line" cases, have been given the benefit of the doubt (lack of absolute proof) than the other way around.
BIG Lottery |
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin A production manager in a corporation says, "Hey you, we need some X moved from this tower over to Jita/Rens/wherever." So someone else in the corporation moves the stuff, not knowing that they are getting involved in an exploit mechanic, then they later get smacked with the ban hammer.
That occurred to me too. I would expect anyone unwittingly caught and banned could have petitioned CCP that they thought the ban was unfair for one reason or another (such as you suggest). CCP would look at it and make a decision.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Vyktor Abyss
IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:32:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 10/02/2009 18:34:34
Can you at least tell us what T2 BPOs, which Titans, Motherships, Corporations, which characters etc were removed? Thanks.
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Altomat
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:33:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Tiuwaz and this is why CCP >>> all other mmo companies
I am grateful for this openess and its good for Eve too.
/sign
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.10 18:52:00 -
[54]
Thanks for the report, reading it now. Also, in before the tinfoil mob claiming whitewash because ther pet hate alliance wasn't mass-banned. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:02:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: Vyger Thanks for the comprehensive analysis.
Shame about those T2 BPOs. I'm guessing they won't get re-introduced back into the game.
CCP (well a Dev) did state that if any T2 BPOs were removed from the game they would be given back out again to maintain a balance however some how unfortunately i dont see them keeping their word.
And i believe that statement was made with invention either allready out or atleast soon to be relesed.
Edit: Perhaps some (not all obviously) could be given out as prizes of the next alliance tourny might make for intresting prizes since it would be reintroducing BPOs not creating new ones.
Edit2: it would aslo be nice to get a response on if they will remain permanently removed or if they will be reintroduced in some way.
The statement, as I recall it , was different. invention was already under way and a group of player has been discovered that used T2 BPO as a mean of producing isk for RTM. The players were banned and the BPO added to the lottery that started in the same period, the lasto one. So the Dev stated that the BPO owned by the banned accounts would be reseeded in the lottery, together with some destroyed T2 BPO and that maybe in the future other banned T2 BPO would be reseeded if needed.
As invention work well CCP don't seem to feel the need to resed them.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:08:00 -
[56]
Good detail thanks.
So the 30 Tech II BPOs that were "destroyed" .. Where are they now; Will they be re-seeded into the BPO Lottery system as was the intended destination for any BPOs destroyed, lost or on closed accounts?
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:08:00 -
[57]
Longest blog ever, many thanks, good read.
Secure 3rd party service |
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Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:12:00 -
[58]
Wowzers.
I can think of three companies whos developers would have been fired on the spot for sudgesting they explain what happend to the level that CCP Pleognost did.
but then your subscriber base is growing, while in two of the cases I mentiond the sub base is implodeing and the other is, well, granted its the biggest MMO out their so meh
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Serenity Steele Good detail thanks.
So the 30 Tech II BPOs that were "destroyed" .. Where are they now; Will they be re-seeded into the BPO Lottery system as was the intended destination for any BPOs destroyed, lost or on closed accounts?
No.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis We will not reseed the Tech 2 original blueprints. The lottery has been gone for a long time and invention has taken its place.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Geezelbub
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:14:00 -
[60]
Thanks CCP...great job it seems.
Talk about a money machine these guys had...........
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Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:20:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg My concern is the last paragraph stating tha tyou will now actively check for market anomolies.
Dropping this hint is only going to make it harder to detect duping, because then dupers are only going to shuffle their assets around to make the dent on the market smaller.
well to be honest the market already tends to dispers items fairly easily(a number of traiders specialise in looking at multiple regions to see whats a surplus in that region, in fact most of the profits in npc tradegood stations exists from moveing items to diferent regions. besides what finaly broke the market on this was when they got greedy and set up literaly hundreds of poses to exploit this just to make ISK. |
rubico1337
Caldari nefarious badgers inc
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:25:00 -
[62]
*golf clap*
very thorough, professional, and insightful, this is an adequate substitute to the exploration blog for the time being |
KingCappo
Seigers of Doom
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Posted - 2009.02.10 19:29:00 -
[63]
Edited by: KingCappo on 10/02/2009 19:28:41 Very nice blog.
Do you have exact numbers on what percent of the market supply for each mineral came from this exploit? The charts seem to indicate somewhere around 10-20% or so, but it is kinda hard to read.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:33:00 -
[64]
Congrats to CCP for nailing this before it became even worse. Can we get a dev blog about 2 - 3 months out that can detail any more observable market fallout? ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Anaesthera
Gallente AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:41:00 -
[65]
Fascinating read, but I may have to read it twice to understand it all.
Question....don't you guys have a way to run a query that, for example, checks the top 20 ISK earning corps and individuals? And then check exactly why they are in the top? A corp making trillions of isk has got to raise a red flag.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:41:00 -
[66]
Hooray for CCP.
So much for hiding details of exploits. Will you be doing this with future patches or go back to the "several exploits have been removed making EVE a better place for all"? --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:45:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Cadde Edited by: Cadde on 10/02/2009 17:52:00 Page 1 on a long blog!
Good stuff
EDIT:
I would also like to know where all the generated isk went, as stated in the blog:
"Between 6 and 12 TRILLION isk has been gained from this exploit"
Just to put it into perspective, that is between 6,000 and 12,000 BILLION isk, enough to purchase and decently fit about:
or enough to buy 18000-36000 Plexes.
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Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:48:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state."
This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too.
. . . where were you when BoB was disbanded?
this is a TOTAL PvP game, you better bloody well know what the people under you are doing. Especialy when they are embarking on something on this scale. |
Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:50:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Anaesthera Fascinating read, but I may have to read it twice to understand it all.
Question....don't you guys have a way to run a query that, for example, checks the top 20 ISK earning corps and individuals? And then check exactly why they are in the top? A corp making trillions of isk has got to raise a red flag.
the problem is that a corp/aloiance raising trillions would be constantly raising a red flag just from doing normal legal operations. |
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:51:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state."
This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too.
If you are director then you are supposed to know what your guys are up to. That out of the way, if it would have been only one POS then you might be able to spin yourself out of the situation. Assuming you are actually innocent. You know the usual procedures of escalating and so on.
However, situation where POS is erected extra for exploiting it's highly unlikely that directors are clueless poor victims. If you are worried about the possibility then I would suggest not allowing personal towers for memebers. The roles involved in that are security risk if you can't even trust your memebers not to exploit. |
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:53:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state."
This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too.
Welcome to corporate responsibility!
|
DirtBagSuperstar
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:55:00 -
[72]
One thing I would like to know is how does this affects the total amount of materials produced versus the amount consumed on a daily basis. For example if before the bug fix 10 mil units of ferrogel were produced daily and 9 mil units being consumed per day, then there is a surplus of material causing the price to stabilize at a reasonable value. However if 1.5 mil units were being plucked out of thin air a day, we now have a shortage of .5 mil units a day. I believe that would be a better indication than .7% of the yearly trade. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 19:57:00 -
[73]
Originally by: DevBlog The opening action on our part regarding the exploit included the total destruction of all the POS complexes involved. This entailed flying to each one and basically nuking everything in sight - a fireworks show of epic proportions but with no witnesses except the GMs in the demolition team.
CCP you are completely utterly and hopeless noobs! When a chance to see things blow up on such a massive scale you should ALWAYS have Fraps running. You could have had a video with hundred of thousand of views in your YouTube Channel. Let that be a lesson to you!
Thank you for the detailed blog. Oversight is everything in this day and age, good to hear you are tightening the reigns.
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Melonar
Core Element Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 -
[74]
They say that they went out and destroyed the offending POS's with brute force, and that only the GMs involved got to see it.
Could we perhaps get a video recording of high profile cases like this in the future? I'm sure everyone would love to watch a major smackdown in high-quality video.
It would be a good way to entice people to play by showing that CCP truly cares about the universe.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 -
[75]
Thank you for the detailed blog CCP, and thank you Abrazzar for informing the clueless if the lost tech 2 BPOs will be reseeded through the lottery or not.
I fear though, that your work is far from over. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 -
[76]
As an excel jockey by trade, it would be hippocritical to get on CCP's case for not catching the bug earlier given how it was being caused (to them, it looked like situation normal).
I think the response is appropriate, good job CCP. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donæt forget the reach-around.
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Kristel Elke
Amarr Addikt Industries Codemonkey Construction Project
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:02:00 -
[77]
WALL OF TEXT
take a writing class, you could have written this in 4 paragraphs.
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Arithron
Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:20:00 -
[78]
Nice blog! I can confirm that high-end minerals and advanced materials are still going up in price, and market manipulation is fun and addictive ;)
It would be nice to know which T2 BPO were removed from the game. I'm curious to trace 3 Conflagration M BPO, and a few Aurora M BPO's... (If you have one, feel free to mail me and I'll add you to my list!)
The impact on the markets of the exploit are now being felt- removal of the significant quantities they supplied from 'non-existant dysprosium etc' has meant that those quantities now must be supplied by existant dysprosium etc. Demand is still high, supply of Dysprosium and other high end Moon minerals is low (especially given recent turmoil in Dysprosium moon areas and wars affecting supply). Effectively, higher prices for T2 is here for sometime, unless new supplies of the higher moon minerals are seeded...
Arithron Vote Arithron for CSM! Check out my thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=899358 |
Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:21:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Welcome to corporate responsibility!
So you are saying that if an employee of ccp (for example) commits a crime that automatically their ceo and other heads are criminals too and thus need to go to jail. I am so glad you do not belong their the rank of judges in rl. Since its still the case in rl that you are only guilty if you have committed a crime yourself and that you cannot be punished for crimes someone else did.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Disteeler
Segunda Fundacion Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:27:00 -
[80]
Thanks. We are back to happy days :)
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:30:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 10/02/2009 20:32:08
Originally by: Raymon James . . . where were you when BoB was disbanded?
this is a TOTAL PvP game, you better bloody well know what the people under you are doing. Especialy when they are embarking on something on this scale.
You cannot and should not be punished for crimes someone else did. It ridiculous that if you are a CEO of a company and some employee commits a crime that you also should go to jail. Only the real guilty should be punished. What you are saying would never hold up in a real court case, cause it must be proved that without any doubt a person knew what was going on. And in our setup no isk goes through the corp wallets. That ccp produces faulty code is their problem. Punishing people who did not know that a certain exploit existed is unacceptable.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Andrue
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:30:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads "Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state."
This highly upsets me. In my corp we have several people who have the freedom to setup their own posses. Its their responsibility to maintain it. They quoted text means that if one of them turns bad: me and my directors get perma banned without us doing anything wrong ourselves. This is of course completely unacceptable and unfair. Banning guilty people OK, but being a CEO or director does not automatically means you knew what was going on and thus cannot mean that you get banned too.
Welcome to corporate responsibility!
Run away! -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Omnia Opera
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:38:00 -
[83]
a quite satisfactory read. Thanks. |
zacuis
Great Big Research
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:57:00 -
[84]
a great job on the blog good read.
in light of the full numbers u now have, does the dev team and the good doctor still beleive that the current supply of dyspro and promethium is enought to fulfill demand or do u see t2 price soring back to there pre-invention levels. also taking into account the rise in players many of us expect to see once the boxed version of eve hits the stores.
i personnaly think alchemy was a useless stop gap measure. and the real fix is to swap some dyspro and prom for thulium and neodyspro in some of the complex reactions. |
blkmajik
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 20:59:00 -
[85]
Are there any plans to introduce anything to fill the gaps left by exploited materials leaving the market? It's obvious that any analysis of the success of invention before December is now skewed, since the mass-scale exploitation coincided with that time-frame. Since December, prices for Prom/Dyspro have been skyrocketing. I know Alchemy was intended to help, but its obviously not making a dent. Just look at the price of Cadmium. Even with Cadmium shooting sky-high, Prom/Dyspro and all byproducts continue to climb even faster, and all thats happening with Alchemy is that more participants are being forced out because of the increasing overhead costs. Now even t2 ship prices are jumping like crazy!
Will Alchemy get buffed or more R64 moons added to offset the void? Or are we returning to the days of 800m isk Hulks and 500m Command Ships? |
Mr Xanatos
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:02:00 -
[86]
I started a thread on this already but I will repost here:
A week after the exploit came into the public light, a Veteran player told me how one of his friends had made $200,000 USD (yes I said two hundred thousand United States Dollars) from the exploit by buying selling the Isk he cheated out of the game and selling it for real money through Ebay and Paypal. I laughed it off as nonsense and played on, that is until a I saw the new Dev Blog a few minutes ago.
The Dev Blog posted today says
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our estimate is that the exploiting parties made between six and 12 trillion ISK from this exploit. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I decided to crunch some numbers,
6,000,000,000,000 Isk (6 Trillion) divided by 700,000,000 Isk (700 Million Isk, average GTC price as of today) = 8571.429 GTCÆs
1 GTC Approx = $35 USD
8571.429 X $35 US Per GTC = $300,000 USD
So if my calculations are correct (please feel free to correct any errors I made) then the Isk exploited turns into somewhere between $300,000 USD -> $600,000 USD.
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our logs also show that there were only three corporations that had 88% of the 6.7 trillion ISK profit from the exploit. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
88% of $300,000 USD -> $600,000 USD is equal to $264,000 USD -> $528,000 USD.
And to think I laughed at this Veteran player when he said his friend had made over $200,000 US from the exploit.
PS, I hope IÆm completely wrong in my numbers so if you find I had one to many Zeros or something please post here and shoot a whole in my math.
Thanks |
Malovich
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:03:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Welcome to corporate responsibility!
So you are saying that if an employee of ccp (for example) commits a crime that automatically their ceo and other heads are criminals too and thus need to go to jail. I am so glad you do not belong their the rank of judges in rl. Since its still the case in rl that you are only guilty if you have committed a crime yourself and that you cannot be punished for crimes someone else did.
If the employee committed the crime on company time using company assets granted to them by said CEO/directors you can bet the police would be talking a long, hard look at them. If an executive at one company is found to have committed fraud, yes, the other executives will be investigated as well. Even if you are ultimately found innocent, it's a massive disruption to say the least...much the same as appealing a ban and getting it overturned. Where your analogy falls down is that IRL you have a home self and a work self. When you leave work, you are no longer working. In Eve, however, you are always working and everything you do reflects on your corporation. There's no "off the clock" if you're logged in.
If you are concerned about people exploiting and getting you in hot water as well, don't make them a director. If you make them a director, then you have assumed the risk of them harming the corporation and yourself. |
Sacul
Destructive Influence KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:05:00 -
[88]
Now the market speculation in Jita might come to a halt. Well one can hope |
URUS FORGE
Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:18:00 -
[89]
I'll read it again..
but lets just say there are some holes in this report.
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:22:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Malovich If the employee committed the crime on company time using company assets granted to them by said CEO/directors you can bet the police would be talking a long, hard look at them.
I have nothing against an investigation to look if people higher up knew whats going on. But thats not what ccp did. They simply banned people cause they were a director. If they knew or not did not matter: all were banned. So, maybe, innocent people were banned.
Originally by: Malovich If you are concerned about people exploiting and getting you in hot water as well, don't make them a director. If you make them a director, then you have assumed the risk of them harming the corporation and yourself.
The people i talk about in my corp are no directors at all, They just have personal posses, which they pay themselves and get all income themselves. We are freelancers what we make is our own (as much as possible). And this game is full of spies, scammers, pirates, assassins, corp thieves etc. Its almost impossible to keep them out.
What you seem to be OK with is that fact that, if some bad guy/girl finds an exploit and you do not know it was even possible, its OK to be banned even though you have done nothing wrong yourself and have always worked within the ULA.
I am no bug hunter, i just play the game, its not my task to constantly look for exploits. If i find a bug i will report it, like i have done many times in the past. But if i am not aware of a certain bug/exploit i should not be punished for it if someone else missuses it.
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:25:00 -
[91]
I dont suppose theres any chance of finding out which BPO's were destroyed? |
Ambassador Delenn
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.10 21:26:00 -
[92]
Overall I was impressed by the information, but the attempt to show the size of the exploit compared to the overall market was flawed since the value of total trade was used to represent the market.
If I were to buy an input for 900Mil and then sell the output for 1Bil and another player were to sell 100M of duped ferrogel he is only contributing 5% of total trade while making as much profit as I am. This is made even more complex given the multiple stages of production in the eve economy.
For example: 1 Ore is mined and sold on the market. 2 Refined to minerals and resold 3 Produced into a Battleship and resold 4 Bought in Jita and moved to a combat hub 5 Sold to the end user who gets it blown up in combat.
This is a very simple example that doesn't begin to touch the amount of trading and relisting done without changing the item. This is why in the real world GDP is calculated using only the value of finished goods, in this example the "retail" price of the Battleship.
Admittedly it would be very difficult to calculate something equilivant to GDP in eve since it is often unclear what is and is not a final good. A good starting point would be the market price of all ships and modules destroyed, but that isn't directly relevant to the current topic.
A far more useful measure of the scale of the exploit would be to find the amount of duped materials in relation to the theoretical maximum that could be produced by normal methods. Given that a dyspro moon can supply 2 fermionic condensates, ferrogel or hypersynaptic fibers reactions it should be relatively simple. It would be a reasonable assumption that all dyspro moons are fully utilized and that alchemy would have a negligible impact on these calculations.
Even just publishing the raw number of dyspro/promethium moons (with no strategic information about locations, ownership etc.) and letting the community determine the magnitude would be appreciated. |
Orontes Ovasi
Minmatar COGNET SpaceSystems Ltd Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:53:00 -
[93]
Great DevBlog, and a fascinating read. Keep up the good work. |
Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 21:54:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Sacul Now the market speculation in Jita might come to a halt. Well one can hope
*gasp* NO!
How else will I make my billions without undocking!? |
Vak'ran
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:06:00 -
[95]
Thumbs up for the finalization of this issue.
Now, for purposes of pure entertainment only...
Quote: The opening action on our part regarding the exploit included the total destruction of all the POS complexes involved. This entailed flying to each one and basically nuking everything in sight - a fireworks show of epic proportions but with no witnesses except the GMs in the demolition team.
Describe the weaponry involved |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:07:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Sacul Now the market speculation in Jita might come to a halt. Well one can hope
Not likely, we still have (supposedly) the entire BoB market hiccup to work through despite volume remaining relatively stable.
Onto the blog
Impressive to say the least, however I think you market gurus are playing down the effects of the increased supply in the T2 market when you compare the total amount spawned to the daily trade in EVE.
A better metric would have been to calculate the amount of T2 goods that require those materials in production traded between the exploit dates. Breakout the total percentage in materials those goods account for, separate the exploited materials and THEN compare the totals.
I think you'll find the numbers to be likely a bit more than you are playing it off to be.
You also are not accounting for speculative forces using that spawned material, profits from that speculation, etc...
On the Law and Order side, bravo for bringing down the thunder and bringing it down hard. 134 accounts banned, BPOs removed entirely, etc ....is no chump amount |
Nashrak Lighthammer
Caldari Deep Exploration Projects and Programs Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:13:00 -
[97]
Thank you CCP.
It is a good thing to improve visibilty to those things.
So everyone can see how you have proceeded.
Continue like this. |
Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:15:00 -
[98]
Looking at the Cruise Missile launcher II in Figure 13 shows that though prices increased somewhat in December, they soon decreased again.
Figure 13 is not there?
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Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:21:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Ebodhisatva on 10/02/2009 22:24:13 They forgot to mention/include the complete losses factor in this thing, people only massively buy stuff when things get lost/destroyed.
What you are seeing is market, now i'm very sure that a big load of t2 produced at posses gets redirected straight into battles, you don't see that in these stats. That means free war supplies for everyone without ever buying stuff from the market. And that is where most of these things are destroyed.
You should include the stats (difference) between lost in complete EVE, and bought of the market, and _that_ gives a whole other picture.
Not to mention that it is very important to take into account that skills that players have, over time, increase the demand in t2.
Economy in EVE is not MARKET driven, it is PLAYER driven, that means TRADING without ever touching the market.
This means that the complete blog is utter crap, purely jita trading, and that is _not_ where this was all happening.
your call ccp, try again...
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CCP Fallout
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:27:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Ebodhisatva Looking at the Cruise Missile launcher II in Figure 13 shows that though prices increased somewhat in December, they soon decreased again.
Figure 13 is not there?
that should have read "11." I've corrected it. Thanks :) |
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Komen
Gallente Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:30:00 -
[101]
Thank you for a very comprehensive accounting of this issue.
Having read the blog, I think I'm better informed about what happened, how it happened, how it got missed, etc.
While it's regrettable that bug reports were filed and didn't lead to further investigation, it's also understandable. Steps have been, and are being, taken to improve handling of these situations in the future: That's the part I like best about this blog. Everyone makes mistakes, but failing to learn from them, THAT is where shame lies.
Again, thank you for informing us, and thank you for your beautiful internet spaceships game. |
Sabahl
Minmatar LFC Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:37:00 -
[102]
Hmmm, time to recheck that semi-duping exploit I petitioned a year ago to see if it was actually fixed when the testers updated the bugreport to say they could not reproduce it... |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:42:00 -
[103]
first, I did not read the comments, just wrote this right after reading the blog.
1. The economist finaly proved himself usefull. good job 2. Your programmers are a bunch of idiots that don't know how to test their code properly it seems. 3. Your bug hunters and support stuff are a bunch of idiots too for not realising the true nature of the issue they are dealing with.
Had to say the above because the technical part is realy disappointing. How can you cache states of members of a DYNAMIC structure ? Why do you not reevaluate the states when the structure changes ? Are you complete morons ? If you want to save CPU time, you can make the production cycles longer while producing more.
ok ... I have to calm down now or I'll get a forum ban ... |
space bully
Civis Romanus Sum
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:47:00 -
[104]
I just felt like i had to say a few things after reading this massive blog about this god cursed exploit.
First of all, extremly well formulated and argumented blog.. I love the amount of details, and its just glowing of the fact that this have been a rather long process, in which you guys and gals, have devoted some seriouse ressources..
I definetly want to say to whomever is the HR counsulent in ccp, to give a big job well done pat on the backs of the people responsible for all of this text!! Was extremly interesting reading! And a very cool thing to see that you chose such radical action, and didnt want to back down, regardless of the amount of "cash" that was lost in the account bans! |
Shar'ri Atal
Minmatar Chaos Engineering
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:50:00 -
[105]
Thank you CCP for your in depth reporting on this bug, it was interesting to read the analysis. |
John McCreedy
Caldari Eve Defence Force Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:53:00 -
[106]
Two questions need to be asked:
- What action, if any, has been taken against the GMs who did not correctly investigate the petitions filed to see if these where widescale exploits and made erroneous assumptions?
- Can and will you give us a guarantee that in future, any petition in any catagory of a nature involving "dumping" will be investigated to determine whether it is an isloated incident or, as was the case here, an exploit on an industrial scale?
And for once in yoru lives, don't treat this enquiry as a "capsuleer" but rather as a subscriber to your product because that is why you have ongoing customer service problems. We need somebody from CCP to make a pledge that no more assumptions will be made and investigations will be made to uncover the facts so as to avoid anything like this ever happening again.
J |
Ethidium Bromide
Amarr ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 22:59:00 -
[107]
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
so you actually removed items from the game that should still be there?
it's not like they can be rebuilt or anything and it would be interesting to know if there is an impact on prices for those tech II items by simply removing the bpos.... |
Ebodhisatva
The Templars Knights
|
Posted - 2009.02.10 23:01:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
so you actually removed items from the game that should still be there?
it's not like they can be rebuilt or anything and it would be interesting to know if there is an impact on prices for those tech II items by simply removing the bpos....
that's the same with people quitting, they aren't reseeded, and yes what you just said - this will have an impact |
Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:01:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 10/02/2009 20:40:19
Originally by: Raymon James . . . where were you when BoB was disbanded?
this is a TOTAL PvP game, you better bloody well know what the people under you are doing. Especialy when they are embarking on something on this scale.
You cannot and should not be punished for crimes someone else did. It ridiculous that if you are a CEO of a company and some employee commits a crime that you also should go to jail. Only the real guilty should be punished. What you are saying would never hold up in a real court case, cause it must be proved that without any doubt a person knew what was going on. And in our setup no isk goes through the corp wallets. That ccp produces faulty code is their problem. Punishing people who did not knew that a certain exploit existed is unacceptable.
you may want to take a google at the name Enron.
lets be blunt, this scam in its last month was pulling in about 1-2 trillion. (in fact given how quickly things were ramping up I would be shocked if they developers did not twig to something somewhere being wrong within a month as it was. things could not continue along the path it was heading without the prices abruptly cratering)
now if you have that mutch showing up in your corp wallet and dont know where it came from then you do have a problem.
from the sound of things though the corps who set this up were set up to exclusivly churn out duped mats and to try to isolate the people who were actualy exploiting from the exploit itself. |
Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:03:00 -
[110]
It was a pleasure working together with CCP, I really feel this issue has now been properly concluded and that CCP set some new industry standards for MMOs regarding bugs and exploits by the extent this issue was investigated and dealt with.
If I can be of further service to any of you players regarding this issue, feel free to contact me in Eve or at eva a evajobse. net.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:12:00 -
[111]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 10/02/2009 23:14:05 you know it makes a lot of sense now. The fact that the steps were not included frees me of any tin-foil hattery I had. As I've done game testing before, I can understand the reason for dropping it.
Originally by: Kristel Elke WALL OF TEXT
take a writing class, you could have written this in 4 paragraphs.
yeah, and make everyone post : stop hiding the details!"
you should go back to highschool now, you'll understand when your in collage and have to write a 20 page report on burger kings effect on the economy. |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P CCP
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Posted - 2009.02.10 23:52:00 -
[112]
Cleaned.
Please remember to post with respect towards fellow players. |
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Raymon James
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:03:00 -
[113]
Originally by: John McCreedy Two questions need to be asked:
- What action, if any, has been taken against the GMs who did not correctly investigate the petitions filed to see if these where widescale exploits and made erroneous assumptions?
- Can and will you give us a guarantee that in future, any petition in any catagory of a nature involving "dumping" will be investigated to determine whether it is an isloated incident or, as was the case here, an exploit on an industrial scale?
And for once in yoru lives, don't treat this enquiry as a "capsuleer" but rather as a subscriber to your product because that is why you have ongoing customer service problems. We need somebody from CCP to make a pledge that no more assumptions will be made and investigations will be made to uncover the facts so as to avoid anything like this ever happening again.
J
they already said what happend. Quote: To date, we have found three petitions regarding the reactor bug in our systems. Two of those are since late October 2005 and one since late October 2007. In all cases, the issue was handled as an isolated bug for the players reporting it and the work done was geared towards fixing that particular issue.
In one of the older cases, the user petitioning was asked to file a bug report but the resulting report was closed after the bug hunters were not able to reproduce the issue. At the time, no procedures were in place on our end to ensure that reproduction steps were included. Nowadays, our bug hunters will contact the player submitting the report and request that the steps be added if they are missing.
Quite frankly, it must be said that at the time, the documentation and logs available for POS-related things left much to be desired and anyone involved in handling such issues would have been facing a very difficult task indeed. Very little information was available to staff and players alike about how things were supposed to work and what little logs existed were in no way sufficient to provide information needed to successfully tackle problems with POS mechanics. The usual stopgap fix was to simply repackage the structures and hope that it would take care of the issue at hand.
The last petition was correctly filed into the exploit category but it was simply handled as an individual problem for the player reporting it. Thus it fell through the cracks and did not raise the flags it should have and no exploit investigation was launched.
I am going to do something unusual. Im going to side with the GMs on this one. Why? I was a Guide and had a main character on the Test server in EQ. I saw some of the /peitions and /reports on items that fell through the cracks way back then.
I literaly realised that some of the people who play MMOs do so under the influence of whatever turns them on. They had all kinds of pet names for items races and places (that invariably only they used! We were never sure if muttown for example ment Blackburro or Splitpaw or Freeport or Qeynos or Surefall or Rivervale and so on(some of the "Strict" roleplayers in the TierDal were quite racist when it came to the Halflings Halfelfs and Woodelves) that left you wondering just what the hell they were talking about, even when you poped up in game and stood with them and go them to show you what the hell they were talking about. Hell on the test server some of the developers were in the habit of "reading" to us verbatem what was on some of the bug reports hopeing WE knew that the player who submitted them was talking about. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:06:00 -
[114]
Now that's a blog; best one in a long while.
The only things missing are the names of the perpetrators. And don't tell me it'll never happen; skill queueing was never supposed to happen either.
/Ben
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Dmian
Gallente Gallenterrorisme
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:22:00 -
[115]
And you even made it look so casual, as "ah! look, there's the problem..." I can't even think about the effort you put to get this thing straight. Thanks, really, to all the parts involved for your hard work. ----
Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2009.02.11 00:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Goumindong Blog was comprehensive and well written. Good work. Though, i still do not believe anything in your privacy policy prohibits you from releasing the character names of those involved since character names are in no way personal information.
hmm one can exspect for something like this to happen that one or more would be bobs/dev/gm or others that could hold the word back untill they got what they wanted...
this is not a exploit after 4 years, it is something that was intended from the side of some one that could keep it of the reader or so you would think (considering i don't believe the team that checks these things to be to incompatent to see something was wrong, and that something like this wasn't tested in development) I declare war on stupidity |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:21:00 -
[117]
Sooo...
In this thread, they admit all that was posted was true Posted here, scrapheap, and he-who-must-not-be-named's forum.
There was MULTIPLE petitions and bug reports.
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
Ok so the generated isk is around max 16trillion. There was 200pos or so. Including supercap losses, wallet isk, and well there's 100+ t2 bpos known to have been destroyed.
So easily the isk has been destroyed that has been generated basically. Which is good. Not to mention lots of t2 bpos being destroyed is really really good; hopefully one day t2bpos just arent an existing thing.
Quote: To date, we have found three petitions regarding the reactor bug in our systems. Two of those are since late October 2005 and one since late October 2007. In all cases, the issue was handled as an isolated bug for the players reporting it and the work done was geared towards fixing that particular issue.
Notice the wording here.
1. When it was posted on open forums... devs denied outright that the pos exploit had existed very long at all... they also denied that any petition or bug report has ever been made.
The wording of this easily purports that there clearly has been MANY more situations.
Quote: In one of the older cases, the user petitioning was asked to file a bug report but the resulting report was closed after the bug hunters were not able to reproduce the issue.
You know... Ive posted like 7 bug reports in the past day... nothing particularly special considering expansion version 1 is just on... but I got filtered the EXACT same way on a number of bug reports.
Hi, I couldn¦t get this to reproduce - can you please run the log server and reproduce this bug.
1. I'm not running no log server. I will only do this if I'm extremely extremely bored. Not my job to do this. 2. I posted a pic of the bug. It's clear it's a bug... and it almost certainly is going to hurt all pvpers ingame.
Unless they assume i'm an epic of epic shooper; which i cant even toot my horn to that effect. :) The bug exists.
It is pure and epic FAIL. If the bug hunters filter my bug report... in order to make it basically die. No dev, no other bug hunters will see it.
the bug wont be fixed
The bug then gets into game. People die. Post reimbursement petitions and get denied. LIKE ME FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
I bug reported a mission related bug. It got filtered. Im not going back to check my bug reports every single day. The bug got to TQ. I lost my ares to the bug. I basically have done no lvl 4 missions since. On top of that... GMs wont reimburse me because the logs show nothing special.
It is time to radically change the bug reporting system. Allow ALL people to essentially be bug hunters.
Look at this site.
ANYONE can go see all the bugs listed; but I digress. There is potential for exploits to be visible this way. So how about we make the fail&aids Bug Hunters competent for a second and make it so... ANYONE can see Filtered bugs. They then can go in and if they experienced the bug, get in there with the log servers and dxdiags and all this. To keep the bug report alive. |
Datsun Achura
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:29:00 -
[118]
About the best write up we could have asked for tbh
The players making RL $$$ though is a bit
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Arekaine
Gallente Shadowmen. Galactic System Lords Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:31:00 -
[119]
Good blog. Am just glad it got fixed and those that used it got punished.
Now back to the T3 blogs!.....ready........GO!
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.11 02:10:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Ebodhisatva
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
Quote: The assets removed from the game by our actions because of this exploit consist of large numbers of capital ships including some motherships and titans, over 30 Tech II BPOs and other valuable items as well as large amounts of ISK.
so you actually removed items from the game that should still be there?
it's not like they can be rebuilt or anything and it would be interesting to know if there is an impact on prices for those tech II items by simply removing the bpos....
that's the same with people quitting, they aren't reseeded, and yes what you just said - this will have an impact
No, no it won't. Not beyond what the initial lack of supply has already impacted the market. The prints matter not, its the lack of mats that is what is effecting prices right now.
But to be frank, this isn't the place for this discussion. Everyone should eve search Akita Ferrogel and look for this post back in Sept. He was one of the first players to recognize openly that something funky was going on with the T2 mat market and that over supply was starting to occur. |
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2009.02.11 02:41:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Hi, I couldn¦t get this to reproduce - can you please run the log server and reproduce this bug.
1. I'm not running no log server. I will only do this if I'm extremely extremely bored. Not my job to do this. 2. I posted a pic of the bug. It's clear it's a bug... and it almost certainly is going to hurt all pvpers ingame.
A pic isn't going to show how to reproduce the bug, and how it works.
The logserver is very useful for them to figure out what's happening, how it works and how it can be reproduced reliably. If you want to make it hard on them and not help out, that's not their fault, it's yours. You're basically blaming them for your own reluctance to actually help out properly.
EVE History Wiki
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2009.02.11 02:45:00 -
[122]
Very nice writeup, as always. It is refreshing when an MMO developer tells it straight instead of employing the 'ban everyone that ever hears we messed up' policy employed by many others--color me a CCP fanboy.
I do have a lingering question though: how will this factor into CCP's stated goal of balancing T2 resources? The market may be strong enough to correct for HACs, but prices for less popular ships such as the Vulture and Retribution have risen dramatically. So it would appear that the imbalance is actually much more severe than anticipated, and at this rate a lot of people may get priced out of the market. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 02:51:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Reiisha
A pic isn't going to show how to reproduce the bug, and how it works.
I'm obviously not just posting a pic. I'm saying how it happened. It doesnt even matter; because the pic PROVES the bug exists. If they cant figure out how to reproduce... they should open up the matter and see if others can figure it out. Not have 1 bug hunter be inept and incapable of doing something, filtering and just ignoring the bug as if it doesnt exist.
Quote: The logserver is very useful for them to figure out what's happening, how it works and how it can be reproduced reliably. If you want to make it hard on them and not help out, that's not their fault, it's yours. You're basically blaming them for your own reluctance to actually help out properly.
Sure log server is useful. Sure. It's not my job to bug report **** all though. I can simply do nothing. Then bugs are absolutely certain to go unnoticed by the what? 1% of players who actually go on sisi vs tq?
I have already proposed a superior system to the current one. The lack of this system being implemented takes all blame off me immediately. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Rata Nrnima
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:31:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka first, I did not read the comments, just wrote this right after reading the blog.
1. The economist finally proved himself useful. good job 2. Your programmers are a bunch of idiots that don't know how to test their code properly it seems. 3. Your bug hunters and support stuff are a bunch of idiots too for not realising the true nature of the issue they are dealing with.
Had to say the above because the technical part is realy disappointing. How can you cache states of members of a DYNAMIC structure ? Why do you not reevaluate the states when the structure changes ? Are you complete morons ? If you want to save CPU time, you can make the production cycles longer while producing more.
ok ... I have to calm down now or I'll get a forum ban ...
The economist proved his incompetence beyond belief. What excuse do you offer for not immediately noticing the imbalance? I for one am not buying the whitewash! I am an accountant and this exploit had to be notable. Quarterly reports would have revealed the imbalance, and yet the Economist ignored it. Why?
How many CCP employees / Developers / Game Msters were involved in this exploit? Entirely too much real life money exchanged hands in this. CCP lost too much money to have turned a blind eye for as long as they did for collusion not to be involved.
The report is a nicely written explanation that says a bunch of nothing. They say they blew up a bunch of pos' etc. but no one saw. Sure you did, and the economist didn't notice . . . |
Jinx Barker
Caldari GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:51:00 -
[125]
Can we have a list of T2 BPOs removed from the game due to the exploit. Surely this does not represent any type of privacy breach for CCP?
This would give us an idea of what the market for those items might be in the future.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:55:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Reiisha
A pic isn't going to show how to reproduce the bug, and how it works.
I'm obviously not just posting a pic. I'm saying how it happened. It doesnt even matter; because the pic PROVES the bug exists. If they cant figure out how to reproduce... they should open up the matter and see if others can figure it out. Not have 1 bug hunter be inept and incapable of doing something, filtering and just ignoring the bug as if it doesnt exist.
Quote: The logserver is very useful for them to figure out what's happening, how it works and how it can be reproduced reliably. If you want to make it hard on them and not help out, that's not their fault, it's yours. You're basically blaming them for your own reluctance to actually help out properly.
Sure log server is useful. Sure. It's not my job to bug report **** all though. I can simply do nothing. Then bugs are absolutely certain to go unnoticed by the what? 1% of players who actually go on sisi vs tq?
I have already proposed a superior system to the current one. The lack of this system being implemented takes all blame off me immediately.
Let me clean this up for you.
I lost a ship once and it wasn't reimbursed, it was due to a bug that made it in game because I can't be arsed to turn in a proper bug report, and I'm very bitter about the whole thing.
See, wasn't that easier to read?
As to the rest, it just doesn't get much more transparent than this. Step away from the tinfoil.
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Kel'Tor
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 04:03:00 -
[127]
Nice work on the blog CCP and the economic impact statistics looks great and actions taken to correct this. I thought only I had problems with those darn acyclic graphs... beers on me for your programming team
For eve community : Is not CCP guilt that human nature tells people to abuse in order to gain advantages over others, is a thing we all live in RL with and a fair example is government can't stop a crime...is there to punish only. And about you had reported and no action was taken in immediate time is like saying to police someone is trying to kill you but you don't know who and how...and either they send u home or into a mental institution...and trust me you pay ALOT more money on your government to "keep you safe" than you will ever pay to CCP. So...better say thanks they just had alot of work into this to clean the mess.
Ding! Ding! see the big picture dudes! and whine later |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:10:00 -
[128]
A much better report than we've seen in the past. Probably a much more thorough accounting than I expected we'd ever see.
Glad to see some of the t2 BPOs go poof. Might help make invention profitable on a few more items. I'd ask for a list of the BPOs removed but that would be counterproductive as speculators then would raise the prices of those goods unnaturally and in the course of time I think we'll know as the prices rise for certain items.
All in all a good report.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Lusulpher
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:37:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 11/02/2009 05:43:02 Edited by: Lusulpher on 11/02/2009 05:42:09 Dear CCP.
Any plans to establish a toll-free phone line(s) to your BugHunting(Game Design?) Departments?
1 Post the phone number, with a valid 6-month character account as password. 2 Ban/suspend abusers. 3 Record the calls. Internal Affairs can get practice on meta-gaming here. 4 Review the issue with your team.
Don't Reward the caller. Same system, faster. NFS...
I am sure this will efficiently erase your PR blunders. SiSi alone would be more polished before you get to your over-extended DownTime Patch Day(The Patch Day BluesTM), and your MANDATORY second Patch Day patch, that follows within the week.
TBH, your Ship Loss petition system is an utter crapshoot...Lag losses were reimbursed randomly in a fleet battle last year, and it still bothers me. At least smacktalking WTs get warnings. But those generated messages lack one word of attention given to the matter.
It's getting old. Balancing(NerfbatsTM), boot.ini, skillqueLIKERIGHTNOAW!!!1!, missile launchers not shooting missiles...you can avoid much shame and overtime pay by handling issues like this BEFORE you launch a product. Your ideas are a scifi wetdream, but your execution is a scifi nightmare. If you were to put out a patch without more than hotfixing in a week with no complaints, I'd eat my own head.
Sure other companies, do that, but you are aiming higher AS A COMPANY AND ALL AROUND.
And your channels of Customer Feedback seem to be one-sided more and more...
When someone says their child is missing, you don't tell them their child appears to be healthy according to the photo in your hand! You go find the child, take them to a hospital, train everyone involved about how to not lose/find children and put out a lost child phone number.
Explain to me how this will not help...
P.S: Not mad at you, just Nvidia's driver is some sort of malware and my EVE client and computer resolutions are now out of date. Love you, ]:3-
7 |
Dealth Striker
Caldari Striker Ltd
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:44:00 -
[130]
Blog = Fluff ---------------------
Communication is Key! |
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:55:00 -
[131]
I'm a bit late posting here, but very nice work here CCP =D
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:09:00 -
[132]
/me rubs his eyes after reading longest dev blog in eve
well that awnsers my questions, and then some.
nice work.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:20:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Rata Nrnima
How many CCP employees / Developers / Game Msters were involved in this exploit?
The dev-blog clearly states that all CCP employees and CSM members were investigated.
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TR4D3R4LT
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:27:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Rata Nrnima How many CCP employees / Developers / Game Msters were involved in this exploit? Entirely too much real life money exchanged hands in this. CCP lost too much money to have turned a blind eye for as long as they did for collusion not to be involved.
Your argument fails by the fact that if devs/gm's were involved, they could just spam the isk out of thin air. No need to sell stuff on the market or any of that jazz.
Originally by: Rata Nrnima The report is a nicely written explanation that says a bunch of nothing. They say they blew up a bunch of pos' etc. but no one saw. Sure you did, and the economist didn't notice . . .
Have some more tinfoil, do bit searching around and you'll find exactly what corps were involved and the list of t2 bpo assets. CCP's follows their words and can/will not enclose that information, but it doesnt prevent players mouthing it off in third party forums. Sure, it's not CCP's "official" word, but then again, you've shown you dont believe what they say no matter how they say it.
And that my friends is the beauty of all these tinfoilers, no matter how deep, even to the point of releasing ip's and rl phone numbers along with names, the tinfoilers would proceed to point how they're just most likely CCP's paid workers to be used as cover up.
To me it's nice things got closure and that something better emerges from this pile. I made some isks thanks to following markets and quick speed for materials so all this just about gets even on the scales for me.
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Taram Caldar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:31:00 -
[135]
I know it's not CCP policy but I really wish that in this caase they would name & shame.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:38:00 -
[136]
Name and shame, indeed. Who was doing it, what alliances were involved?
Corp and Personal killboard
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JeanLuc Descartes
Gallente Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 06:58:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Jinx Barker Can we have a list of T2 BPOs removed from the game due to the exploit. Surely this does not represent any type of privacy breach for CCP?
This would give us an idea of what the market for those items might be in the future.
Not going to happen....would have too much of an influence on the market...nobody needs rich coprs out there buying up all the t2 items just so they can push the market price up and profit.
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Oleksandr
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:08:00 -
[138]
Justice demands that you release the names of all characters, their corporations, and their alliances that were involved in the exploit.
Don't just ban them. Make sure to make their names public. If you do this, next time any corporation or alliance will think twice of using exploits.
"Manùevery manùis an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others." by Ayn Rand |
Zakgram
Caldari Ore
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:16:00 -
[139]
The lack of logging speaks for itself. Eve doesn't have sufficient logs for the scale of game it is. The number of people who get responses to help requests with "our logs show nothing" is too many. It should be a case of "our logs that x happened, and thus this is normal" (or, most likely, "our logs show X and we'll fix it")
More logging!
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DaiZ Do
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:43:00 -
[140]
I hope the new Alchemy System Code is reviewed on that matter as well :)
madprops for the investigation. |
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Drachenlord
Amarr Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:49:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Drachenlord on 11/02/2009 07:52:16
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Welcome to corporate responsibility!
So you are saying that if an employee of ccp (for example) commits a crime that automatically their ceo and other heads are criminals too and thus need to go to jail. I am so glad you do not belong their the rank of judges in rl. Since its still the case in rl that you are only guilty if you have committed a crime yourself and that you cannot be punished for crimes someone else did.
Are you completely naive? PLENTY of people end up being punished for Crimes other people commit whether they had direct involvement or not, Terms like "Accessory after the fact" or "criminally Negligent" don't exist for no reason....
To suggest otherwise is fallacy at best... I think you need to pull yer head out of the sand and take some lessons on how the real world works before trying to make direct comparisons to our little virtual world here.
ALSO... it's a Game that CCP can decide whether or not certain players should be allowed to play AT WILL, and at any time...
now having said that, I would say to err on the side of caution is better than allowing potential exploiters to have the benefit of the doubt...
Plain and simple... when it comes to EULA enforcement, Eve is not a democracy... they can and will enforce the EULA how they see fit... and for anyone who would want to argue otherwise... being that they're the developer and publisher of the game, they can change the EULA when they need to as situations such as this would arise.
For this situation however there were already measures in place and they used it...
If innocent people got banned... I would have to say they need to be more careful who they give POS management roles to... and best of luck getting their accounts unbanned if they in fact had no knowledge of the exploit.
At the end of the day, if you disapprove this strongly of how they handled a pretty serious exploit... run for CSM this year, or stop playing are about your only options. ----- While the Enemies of the Empire still draw breath there can be no peace |
Mallikanth
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Posted - 2009.02.11 07:53:00 -
[142]
Excellently laid out Blog and excellent explanation. Thanks CCP.
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Navtiqes
Englebarna
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Posted - 2009.02.11 08:23:00 -
[143]
I thoroughly enjoyed the graphical illustrations :) It's very interesting to see how fear and even just the early rumours affected the market.
Which brings to mind the current financial crisis. The media and the press surely has alot of blame for the effect their fearmongering has had on it. |
Ralitge boyter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:04:00 -
[144]
Thank you for removing the motherships and most of all the T2 BPO's Less of them in the game is only better for the econnomy as a whole.
One thing that I seem to miss here is a peer code review. I mean if you had a single person looking at this code with the idea of trying to find a free ride (not so much nice comments and correct if/for statments etc. Then you would have to be employing the blind or the totaly stupid to not have seen the potential for an exploit here. I think that your QA department needs a small group of maybe 5 or 10 people that are dedicated to sifting thru new code and trying to exploit it, with their knowledge of what is under the hood. Because with near 300k players there is a near certainty that some player(s) at some point will figure out how these things work under the hood and will make use of any bug they find, there is to much ISK (is real money even if CCP doesn't like it) at stake.
As for the explanation it is good to see that these things are investigated and that the once responsible are found draged out of their mothership and shot in the back of the head. I like that style of working, but I hope that for any next time the GM's take an EVE TV crew and film the nuking of hundreds of POS's just so we can all see the nice booms and will remember for a little longer what happens to those who break the rules. |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:24:00 -
[145]
30 T2 BPOs is hardly all of them, not really even a majority.
The blog is better than expected.
However it also shows that there were at least 3 failings when it was indeed reported. They say they are taking steps to prevent that in the future we'll see.
Whether or not employees were involved depends on what you can prove, just because they can't prove it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Still stinks.
I'm sure folks will notice which titans seemed to disappear soon enough. Been nice to have had a number of titans removed rather than just a broad some titans. I don't see where the number of titans and motherships removed would compromise account identities.
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Crewman Jenkins
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:46:00 -
[146]
Nice read, thanks CCP!
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Naradius
Gallente DEATHFUNK Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:48:00 -
[147]
The most shocking part of this whole Dev Blog was: "Our logs also show that..."
Holy database analysis Batman!! CCP admit that the logs, finally, actually showed something!!! I'm marking that event on my Calender for future reference and will provide it as proof the next time I suffer a de-sync! ;0)
In all seriousness, I great Blog, and thanks for giving us all the heads up.
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CCP Pleognost
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Posted - 2009.02.11 09:53:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Ralitge boyter One thing that I seem to miss here is a peer code review. I mean if you had a single person looking at this code with the idea of trying to find a free ride (not so much nice comments and correct if/for statments etc. Then you would have to be employing the blind or the totaly stupid to not have seen the potential for an exploit here.
The code involved predates our current code-review practices by quite a while. New code (or rewritten code) is peer-reviewed these days. The fix was peer reviewed multiple times before it went out, specifically for the reasons you state.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:12:00 -
[149]
One of the more startling things about this POS Exploit and the market repercussions of it, is due to the rarity of the items involved, the demand for the additional quantity of stuff that was put on the market was more than enough to staisfy the glut of supply.
While this is of course natural due to the rarity of the materials, it has brought two very important facts that seemed to have been overlooked in the analysis of the market:
1) That CCP have designed alchemy during the time of the exploit, and may have designed alchemy with the superficial increase of the exploit in mind, and as such may have nerfed the effects of alchemy too much to be of any meaningful use to the market in terms of increasing supply.
2) Given that alchemy relies on the usage of Cadmium so heavily, we have yet to see any effect of Cadmium's prices (and consequently all Gallente T2 items due to the inevitable repositioning of Cadmium from Crystalline Carbonate to the alchemy reactions) on the market. This shows that alchemy isn't being used at all by the players. Granted, it may get used a little more, but there will only be so much additional supply from alchemy, which I'd expect will only contribute a 5-10% increase to the supply of Ferrogel and Fermionics - still far from enough to satiate the demand for the stuff.
2) From what I can tell, it's quite clear from the charts that saturation of the rare moons has been reached, and that all rare moons (for Prom and Dysp especially) are being mined to supply the market. Here, and here, I have put a red line showing that there is a clear ceiling in place for both the Ferrogel and Fermionics supply (the thick bright red line).
As such, can I ask CCP whether: 1) alchemy was designed with too much restriction to additional supply as a result of this. 2) I'm correct in the analysis that Dysp and Prom moons are all being used to maximum saturation (ie what is the maximum volume that can be sold from moons alone) 3) CCP have any plans to either rebalance alchemy or provide more moons |
gordon861
Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:52:00 -
[150]
Long Blog...
I think some of the 30 BPOs that were removed from the game should be passed on to the people that reported this bug years ago and were ignored, assuming they are still in game and weren't using the bug themselves. Just give them a couple each. |
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.11 10:54:00 -
[151]
Thankyou to everyone involved with investigating and explaining to us about this.
I don't see how you could possibly be anymore frank or candid about this.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar Army of One
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:01:00 -
[152]
*thumbs up*
This kind of transparency is unheard of with other MMOs, especially regarding exploits. While it's still shameful that such a huge bug could go under the radar for so long, it's also good to know that as EvE has grown and matured, CCP has taken steps already to ensure it (probably) won't happen again.
EvE being what it is, anything that can give a person/corp/alliance a leg up will be abused shamelessly, to the point it breaks the game if said mechanic is.. shall we say... unintentional?
Also, GET YOUR TINFOIL HATS HERE! ONLY 10 MILLION WHILE SUPPLIES LAST! SEND ISK TO KESSIAAN! TINFOIL HATS! |
Rude Bwoy
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:40:00 -
[153]
nothing in there about wormholes or T3 ships :-( Who's the rudest of them all! |
Electric Fox
IMPERIAL SENATE
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:40:00 -
[154]
So, when can we expect to read the academic journal paper from CCP Dr.EyjoG?
"the effects of a limitless supply of goods acquired through exploit on the market in a virtual environment"
The closeset real life example to this that I can recall off the top of my head is what's happened to cause the imminent depression. Banks loan money they create out of thin air and eventually get hauled up for it.
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Rata Nrnima
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Posted - 2009.02.11 11:55:00 -
[155]
Originally by: TR4D3R4LT
Originally by: Rata Nrnima How many CCP employees / Developers / Game Msters were involved in this exploit? Entirely too much real life money exchanged hands in this. CCP lost too much money to have turned a blind eye for as long as they did for collusion not to be involved.
Your argument fails by the fact that if devs/gm's were involved, they could just spam the isk out of thin air. No need to sell stuff on the market or any of that jazz.
Originally by: Rata Nrnima The report is a nicely written explanation that says a bunch of nothing. They say they blew up a bunch of pos' etc. but no one saw. Sure you did, and the economist didn't notice . . .
Have some more tinfoil, [snip] CCP's follows their words and can/will not enclose that information, but it doesnt prevent players mouthing it off in third party forums. Sure, it's not CCP's "official" word, but then again, you've shown you dont believe what they say no matter how they say it.
[snip]To me it's nice things got closure [snip]
CCP broke their word when this exploit was allowed to flourish for so very long. My tin-foil hat at least isn't down around the gonads - I've proven not to be so far up CCP's collective arse to form an opinion not recite by rout the company line.
CCP did as predicted: Published a load of crap so very close to new patch release and rely on a self admitted ineffectual group of players (CSM) to push acceptance. This is not closure it is avoidance.
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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente LEAP Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:24:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Vak'ran Describe the weaponry involved
One Dev per POS in Jovian Newb Frigate with a Jovian Civilian Laser, one shot per object. World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
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Krefken Howiere
Mass Production
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:24:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Rata Nrnima CCP broke their word when this exploit was allowed to flourish for so very long. My tin-foil hat at least isn't down around the gonads - I've proven not to be so far up CCP's collective arse to form an opinion not recite by rout the company line.
CCP did as predicted: Published a load of crap so very close to new patch release and rely on a self admitted ineffectual group of players (CSM) to push acceptance. This is not closure it is avoidance.
Until you can explain very clearly what you feel, other than names, has not been made public in this, you are just a troll.
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Jelek Coro
Caldari Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:47:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Jimer Lins Name and shame, indeed. Who was doing it, what alliances were involved?
The corp (which was closed by CCP) within a well known alliance is not exactly a secret :) The banned members confirmed it on other forums. If you don't know, well, learn to search. Not exactly hard.
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Jaisan
Minmatar Alcatraz Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:51:00 -
[159]
Will CCP be taking legal action to recover any monies made by RMT the exploited isk ?
Just an account ban is no punishment for real world benifits made from this exploit.
Just too orangey for crows. |
Research Clone1
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:54:00 -
[160]
I have a couple of questions:
Quote: From the technical part earlier in this blog, we basically can assume that the exploit has been possible from the beginning of player owned structures in EVE. After digging through terabytes of data we know that the exploit existed on a small scale until 2007. Until then, the cost of setting up POSes and operating them probably outweighed the benefit of large scale operations and hence these operations were able to stay under the radar.
Does this mean that other players were aware of and using this exploit even earlier than those who have already been banned and, if so, what action has been or is going to be taken against these accounts?
The report measures the effect of the exploit against the entire Eve economy. What was the effect of the exploit on the T2 market itself and what percentage of that market does the exploited ISK represent over the period in question?
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Jelek Coro
Caldari Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.02.11 12:58:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Research Clone1 I have a couple of questions:
Quote: From the technical part earlier in this blog, we basically can assume that the exploit has been possible from the beginning of player owned structures in EVE. After digging through terabytes of data we know that the exploit existed on a small scale until 2007. Until then, the cost of setting up POSes and operating them probably outweighed the benefit of large scale operations and hence these operations were able to stay under the radar.
Does this mean that other players were aware of and using this exploit even earlier than those who have already been banned and, if so, what action has been or is going to be taken against these accounts?
The report measures the effect of the exploit against the entire Eve economy. What was the effect of the exploit on the T2 market itself and what percentage of that market does the exploited ISK represent over the period in question?
Try reading the blog again. Then again if you still have difficulty understanding.
(this is me being polite btw)
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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente LEAP Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:05:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. Your programmers are a bunch of idiots that don't know how to test their code properly it seems.
Actually, stale cache corruption bugs are typically the work of good programmers; bad programmers aren't sophisticated enough to use caching and hinting techniques to optimize their code. And race conditions (which this effectively was) are notoriously difficult to debug. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Eclats de verre
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:20:00 -
[163]
Glad all this got explained!
And, HURRAY! for the destroyed T2 BPOs, it will make my inventor friends happy, they happen to invent stuff listed by people in there.
@all that think making bugless code is easy : Unless you work in something that could make you directly injure/kill people (this is aerospace, and all transport stuff) or loose large amounts of money (I just mean way more than the additional development cost), you really don't pay people to review the code, it just goes through QA that will test and hammer the program and that's all. I'm actually quite impressed that CCP takes steps to have a good hold on their code quality and try as much as possible to avoid new exploits by spending more money on it, everyone wouldn't. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:47:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
...
Here, and here, I have put a red line showing that there is a clear ceiling in place for both the Ferrogel and Fermionics supply (the thick bright red line).
As such, can I ask CCP whether: 1) alchemy was designed with too much restriction to additional supply as a result of this. 2) I'm correct in the analysis that Dysp and Prom moons are all being used to maximum saturation (ie what is the maximum volume that can be sold from moons alone) 3) CCP have any plans to either rebalance alchemy or provide more moons
Good points. I would speculate on your last point tho. It is possible that in W-Space one can find additional high end moons (in 10 th march expansion). As there is 2500 new systems, if mineral distribution in moos is following the same pattern then ... well the possibility is there. I know that I plan to find one in test server after I manage to scan down a hole that is not already collapsed and see what it would take to mine it ... The rats in there are murderous as I have heard. And logistiks involved might be nightmarish.
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PJRiddick
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Posted - 2009.02.11 13:49:00 -
[165]
Ive been out of the loop for acouple days,..... and i have just one thing to say,....
WOW!,.......
Thank you CCP for your indepth investigation into the matter on this whole thing. I read most of it skipping only the last couple paragraphs of the whole thing,... again,...Thank you
Fly safe >R<
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Lore Varan
Caltech Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.02.11 14:23:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Dev Blog How will this not happen again?
Our systems for detecting issues failed and this brought it to our attention that they are due for an overhaul. The way exploit petitions are received and handled is currently being restructured. The same is true for the bug reporting tools and work procedures in regards to how bug reports are handled.
The QA and Customer Support departments are working on these matters together and new updated systems and procedures will be implemented as soon as they become available. In some cases, the necessary changes have already been implemented.
About 2 months ago I created a petition about a possible exploit.
I wasnt sure if it was an exploit or not. It was a way of getting cheap stuff not free stuff. The response I got was that the issue needed to be moved to a different queue as it couldnt be investigated under a stuck petition , I'm sure I filed it under exploit but thats beside the point.
The petition I created was autoclosed by the system. So I am left now not knowing if the issue I described was an exploit or not, and have no idea if its under investigation or not :(
Would it be worth re-creating the exploit petition now to take advantage of your new improved procedures in case the issue has been forgotten like those 2005 petition u mentioned in the blog ?
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space bully
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.02.11 14:25:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Rude Bwoy nothing in there about wormholes or T3 ships :-(
Just because i like to burst bubbles.. This blog had NOTHING what so ever to do about the new expansion pack, which is clearly stated.. You must have taken a seriously drunken turn when going into this post to type my friend :)
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 14:34:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Drachenlord Are you completely naive? PLENTY of people end up being punished for Crimes other people commit whether they had direct involvement or not, Terms like "Accessory after the fact" or "criminally Negligent" don't exist for no reason....
There is a big difference here. In rl you know people can do fraud with money and bookkeeping etc. If you do not put in right checking procedures you are (partially) responsible. But i do not know what is possible with the faulty code ccp produces. Its impossible for me to take a look at it. Its secret. So how do you expect me to put in security procedures if i am not allowed to know whats possible? And even if have the code, do you really expect me to hire a programmer so he can put me out as a non expert to tell me what is? Checks within reason ok, but this certainly is not.
Originally by: Drachenlord To suggest otherwise is fallacy at best... I think you need to pull yer head out of the sand and take some lessons on how the real world works before trying to make direct comparisons to our little virtual world here.
That does not make it right. Convicting people for crimes they did not commit is always wrong. Laws or no laws.
Originally by: Drachenlord ALSO... it's a Game that CCP can decide whether or not certain players should be allowed to play AT WILL, and at any time...
Being all powerful does not mean that what they did is fair.
Originally by: Drachenlord now having said that, I would say to err on the side of caution is better than allowing potential exploiters to have the benefit of the doubt...
Well and this is exactly what i meant. The devlog states that without further investigation the chars simply got banned just because they had a director role. Thus there was no investigation if they really knew and/or where involved.
Originally by: Drachenlord Plain and simple... when it comes to EULA enforcement, Eve is not a democracy... they can and will enforce the EULA how they see fit... and for anyone who would want to argue otherwise... being that they're the developer and publisher of the game, they can change the EULA when they need to as situations such as this would arise.
Same remark here: being all powerful does not mean that what they did is fair. Punishing the guilty ok. But if you ban people without any further investigation to make sure they were indeed involved you are morally wrong.
Originally by: Drachenlord For this situation however there were already measures in place and they used it...
If innocent people got banned... I would have to say they need to be more careful who they give POS management roles to... and best of luck getting their accounts unbanned if they in fact had no knowledge of the exploit.
How tight security may be its impossible to keep people out who want to be bad. No matter how hard security organizations of the USA, Russia work, there always be spies. And no matter how many cops you employ: there always be crimes. And even if people are ok for a long time they can turn bad one day. Ask bob or better Kenzoku... From what i have seen on their now open forums they did there very best to avoid bad people. If people really wanna do bad stuff you cannot avoid it.
Originally by: Drachenlord At the end of the day, if you disapprove this strongly of how they handled a pretty serious exploit... run for CSM this year, or stop playing are about your only options.
Maybe one day i will. But for now i rather spend my time on my corp and alliance. And with this discussion i am already doing something about it. Stopping is no option. If you run away every single time you do not like something you end up having no place to run too.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 14:52:00 -
[169]
Really good overview of the entire bug, however i cant help wondering about your reference point for comparecent of the actual effect of this bug on the EVE echonomy.
I know you properly had your cheef echonomical guy write up some of the blog - bud my fear is that this numbers show what you want them to show, which is that this bug did not have any real impact on the EVE echonomy.
Now let me explain my self... There are 2 kinds of trade going on in Jita, 1 the kind of trade that relates to normal item exchange between players buying and purchase of items and modules to create new modules and items, 2 the kind of trade that relates to acutal raw materials - now CCP does there best to ensure that not to much raw material is introduced into the game which is good.
However in your blog you compare the bug to all trade going on in Jita where as to show the bugs actual impact you should only compare it to the actual introduction of raw materials. I know its extremely hard to see how this will work in parcis how you would go around measuring this un actuality, cause what we want to know is when a item is sold for the first time, and then we dont really care about the rest of the items life cycle...
What is interesting to know here is not how much the 6-12 trillin is compared to average trade in jita cause any and all items in Jita are traded more then once to make the comparesen transparrent it would be nice to know how much the 6-12 trillian is compared to the minerals that are bieng mined, the moon ore and reactions that are produced, the construction components that are bieng sold.
Im willing to bed that the 98 Ferrogel reactions this pos monkeys wore running corrosponded to much more to the total of the Univers supply of high end reactions. I remember that Deklein have something like 10 prometium moons which corrosponds to 5 full Ferrogel reactinos lets try and use this as our point of reference. Now EVE have about 28 NPC regions and 35 regions that are owned by verious alliances. Now lets say that every one of the 64 regions (yes i used EVE-Map and started counting) can produce 5 full ferrogel reactions each. One full ferrogel reaction uses 2 Complex Reactors.
So with 64 Region's producing 5 reactions each (2 Complex reactors) we should have a total of 640 Complex reactors running the ferrogel reaction.
So compared to this numbers the people who wore using this bug to make money actually wore responsible for 15% of all the ferrogel produced in the EVE universe.
Now im sure that you CCP track how much isk is bieng introduced into the game threw missions (loot, LP and isk), from mining, from ratting, research agents (omg remove them already) and moon materials.
So now the question is how much did this bug actually influence the EVE echonomy ...cause one thing is for sure it is not the 0.7% of one days trading in Jita...it is much much more....some where between 1-5% of the EVE echonomy durring the period where this bug was bieng utelized to the fullest....
So in conclusion, if you want to ease the EVE echonomy an echonomy thats out of control in respect to the high end reactions then the way to go is not to come up with a model where your findings "prove" that it didnt have any actual influence...
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Kuranta
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.02.11 15:11:00 -
[170]
Very few (game) companys (if any at all) would be so open about an exploit.
It's nice to see that CCP has learned from the T2 debacle. Thank you very mucht for this throughout investigation and disclosure (minus some facts due to privacy reasons).
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 15:19:00 -
[171]
Quote: Others that were found to be involved in moving the exploited goods and laundering the ISK also received bans for their part.
So if a corp member is asked to help out to move some stuff cause he/she has a freighter and is asked to sell it on the market cause he/she has better trade skills then the owner of the goods: you can get banned also if the goods turned out to be illegal?!? And how is it possible to tell up front if a good is illegal or not? This is absolutely crazy! You better can stop helping your corp mates cause you can be potentially lose your account in doing so. Is CCP insane?
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Merasa Tro
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Posted - 2009.02.11 15:38:00 -
[172]
Good stuff. Exactly the kind of information that CCP should be comfortable about releasing.
Clear, detailed, and honest. Which usually gets the same response in reply.
I dont believe EvE/CCP is big enough to play the 'tough, deal with it' attitude.
If and when it does get there, be careful not to fall into the bad habit
I would be curious however for any informed speculation on how this effected politics/war/sov for the exploiting Corps/Alliances? Perhaps the stuff gained by the exploit, was laundered into real goodies that has now put some alliance/corp in a much stronger position?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:00:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads Is CCP insane?
No, they are sane, thus they banned all the hauler and market alts as well as the exploiters' main characters.
Just helping your corp mates is not going to get you banned. Participating in an RMT/exploit profit laundering operation will get you banned.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Public Funded War Targets
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:10:00 -
[174]
Good job CCP. Duly appreciated by the community
~ 12.000.000.000.000 isk. Gosh !
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:15:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads Is CCP insane?
No, they are sane, thus they banned all the hauler and market alts as well as the exploiters' main characters.
Just helping your corp mates is not going to get you banned. Participating in an RMT/exploit profit laundering operation will get you banned.
Then you are not reading it well, cause that nuance was not put in the posting. You only assume that they that cause you think thats how it should be. Its nothing more or less than whats written. Same like i pointed out in earlier posts about they just banned people with director rights. Not because CCP had evidence they were involved, no: they were banned just because they had the title. Having a title does not make you automatically involved, just like moving goods and selling for a corp mate does not either. Its clear CCP just banned big groups so they would be sure they had all involved and that innocent bystanders are a victim in the process does not seem to bother them. Very sad.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
URUS FORGE
Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:24:00 -
[176]
1) chart shows only top 10 exploiters vs volume of sales.. There are 134+ players involved...why are you not simply showing the entirety of this data?
2) In game market data windows are for the region only, not entire galaxy of EvE. If this was based simply on The Forge, it does not show the ripple effect of prices through out the galaxy...1000s of players buy from Jita and resell in other regions. So can you clarify this graph please?
3) 232 reactors running on 178 POS's, 7 corps total, with 1 corp running 81 of the bugged reactors and 134 accounts banned... 3 corps having the majority ..BUT... no mention of how many alliances where involved?
Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:51:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Sade Onyx
I expect this issue has put a lot of strain on resources as so many people were involved in this blog. But can we now whip some dev's into giving us more blogs on Apochtypha? Its on the test server but no more blog's since QQ :(
Off topic, but I will have a ton of surprises for you coming within oh... soon :D
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:27:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads Its clear CCP just banned big groups so they would be sure they had all involved and that innocent bystanders are a victim in the process does not seem to bother them. Very sad.
Do you need to add another layer to your tinfoil hat?
What sort of response could possibly satasfy you?
At one end you have CCP banning every innocent player who might have even chatted with the exploiters.
At the other you have CCP doing nothing more than fixing the bug, because they can't prove that the exploiters knew that what they were doing was wrong.
Do you expect CCP to violate their privacy and non-disclosure policies to list off all 134 account, each of the characters on those accounts, along with the email IP addresses, and other personally identifying information about those users. Publish complete transcripts of the banned users professions of innocense and/or ignorance, along with the counter-point evidence discovered by CCP detailing the transactions and action of those players both directly and indirectly relevant to the exploit.
Is there any hope that you might take CCP at its word when it says that it conducted a complete investigation, and that it follows its policies and proceedures for estabilishin reasonable evidence of foul play?
If you are unwilling to extend even a basic level of trust to CCP, why are you even playing this game.
If there was reasonable grounds to believe that a specific director was innocent, then it is doubtful that he would have been banned just because he held a title, even if that is how you choose to read the dev blog.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:45:00 -
[179]
Thanks for in in-depth release regarding the exploit.
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:02:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 11/02/2009 19:04:37
Quote: Do you need to add another layer to your tinfoil hat?
No need to insult me, if you disagree attack my points, not me as a person.
Quote: Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit
The above if from the dev log. It clearly states that for involvement a director role is enough. It does not say: thats it was ground for investigation and that innocent directors were not banned. Its nothing more or less: if you had a director role you were banned, period.
Quote: If there was reasonable grounds to believe that a specific director was innocent, then it is doubtful that he would have been banned just because he held a title, even if that is how you choose to read the dev log.
You assume that chars with director roles are not banned just because they had the title and you think it would be unfair if that would happen. But thats not what the dev log has stated. So its not me who is reading stuff thats not there its you.
Quote: At one end you have CCP banning every innocent player who might have even chatted with the exploiters.
At the other you have CCP doing nothing more than fixing the bug, because they can't prove that the exploiters knew that what they were doing was wrong.
What i want is that innocent people do not lose their account just because some bad guy used an exploit and you happen to be a director or even an hauler for them and losing their account cause of it. Guilty people need to be punished and not the innocent. And yeah it might not be easy to proof stuff, but punishing people you cannot proof they did something wrong is unjust. In rl people are free to go cause of not enough evidence or reasonable doubt. Why should it be any different here?
As for the duping, the people who were actually moon mining did know that what there where doing was wrong. They should at least have petitioned it and they did not.
Quote: Is there any hope that you might take CCP at its word when it says that it conducted a complete investigation, and that it follows its policies and proceedures for estabilishin reasonable evidence of foul play?
Lets reprint their words again:
Quote: Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:18:00 -
[181]
Quote:
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
When I was "director" in one of my 2 companies in real life, you can stay the hell sure they'd claim me as responsible for the employees actions.
If you can't stand responsibility, don't be a director, simple as that.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:19:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Valeria Crossroads
Quote: Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
There was atleast one other case where their choice in wording caused confusion.
Perhaps GM Grimmi would be kind enough to explain what was actually ment.
How much accountablity does a director have for the actions of the corp membership?
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:20:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
When I was "director" in one of my 2 companies in real life, you can stay the hell sure they'd claim me as responsible for the employees actions.
If you can't stand responsibility, don't be a director, simple as that.
Yes, but Eve is not real life. Not even remotely close to it.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:35:00 -
[184]
Quote: Yes, but Eve is not real life. Not even remotely close to it.
It's the one MMO that simulates a decent economic model, a decently realistic death penalty, a decent action => result consequentiality, models economic industry organizations and much more.
It happens to also simulate directors in a fairly decent way.
This is not some goblin spewing fire on a magical carpet, there are corporations, employees, agents, pilots, insurance, banks AND directors to take the good (no taxes, be the boss) and the bad (responsibility for the company actions) modelling the real ones.
I am glad there's still some place in the world (even if it's a virtual place) where harsh and nowadays rude words like "Responsibility" are still in use.
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Rata Nrnima
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:45:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Unfamed II Name and shame a bit moar please. Dddrama awaits.
CCP's report indicates real life money exchanged hands in this exploit. In post a client did the math and exposed the potential guestimation of that r/l income. If I were CCP I'd be pursuing litigation/legal remedy. This negatively impacted CCP's reputation. While, to me, it is patently obvious someone in their employ was involved, legally, they cannot name anyone involvement has not been legally proven.
I've b*tched about CCP involvement in all this. Not realizing the magnitude of ramification implied by the exploit. Unfortunately, previous actions on CCP's part prevented trust. I do however, understand why Name and Shame are not possible in this particular situation.
If, and this is a big IF, CCP's economist truly did not catch any indication of this exploit in the data - I question his qualifications to be called "Economist". I'm stuck at WHY didn't he stop it. He isn't incompetent, so ?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:51:00 -
[186]
Quote: I question his qualifications to be called "Economist". I'm stuck at WHY didn't he stop it. He isn't incompetent, so ?
The Economist works on the basis he's fed proper data, expecially when the prices spike at the same time they expected that for other reasons.
He got tainted data that just stacked onto an expected trend so it fooled him. Also, despite the massive amount of ISK involved, those were pretty "high end" materials, and thus with higher volatility in prices, leading to an even more relaxed check about the causes of trends.
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:56:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Like they say it themselves: a director role is all it takes.
When I was "director" in one of my 2 companies in real life, you can stay the hell sure they'd claim me as responsible for the employees actions.
If you can't stand responsibility, don't be a director, simple as that.
I am not responsible for faulty code: CCP is. And i am willing to bet that all involved programmers and gm's etc are still there and still being payed even though they messed up big time, several times. And the people who are responsible for them have not been sacked either.
The ULA we all agree to is to make sure we behave ourselves. It does not make you automatically responsible for others people actions just because you have a role within the corp. If we can lose our account just because we accept a director role they should state that in the ULA and give a warning when accepting such a role. As players we are responsible for our own actions, not for others.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:55:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote: I question his qualifications to be called "Economist". I'm stuck at WHY didn't he stop it. He isn't incompetent, so ?
The Economist works on the basis he's fed proper data, expecially when the prices spike at the same time they expected that for other reasons.
He got tainted data that just stacked onto an expected trend so it fooled him. Also, despite the massive amount of ISK involved, those were pretty "high end" materials, and thus with higher volatility in prices, leading to an even more relaxed check about the causes of trends.
Actually prices started into a free fall and several people in the market discussion forums made calls that something funny was going on with supply well before the exploit was made public. In fact one in particular noted that a good portion of material just appeared on the market and was responsible for the price decline.
This was in opposite to the expected effect of what should have been increased prices, so everyone was scratching their heads.
I don't fault the economist, he doesn't play the game as much as some of us traders do. So his knowledge of the game to be quite frank is rather limited even with him being on the dev side of the table. |
Primnproper
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:00:00 -
[189]
Good job, nice blog |
BlondieBC
Minmatar Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:39:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Vyger Thanks for the comprehensive analysis.
Shame about those T2 BPOs. I'm guessing they won't get re-introduced back into the game.
A list of the t2 bpo's would be nice, nice to know what is getting more expensive.
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Lincoln Armm
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:51:00 -
[191]
Just to make something clear, this exploit did not generate isk and therefore did not have a general inflationary effect. It generated goods and was therefore deflationary. Of course the exploiters themselves were able to gain large amounts of isk.
A exploit that directly duped isk would be much more serious, since lower prices in EVE tend to be solved by the system (through higher "wastage") while a inflationary spiral would be much harder to recover from.
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Soo Cadik
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:18:00 -
[192]
As someone that has worked writing online video games for the last 10 years, I've found that maintaining a sort of degenerate mindset when writing code is very helpful for preventing exploits from happening. What would happen if someone tried to drop a detpack while feigning death? What would happen if someone started firing the assault cannon and then tried to disguise himself as the other team?
I try to write code to be as self-healing as possible, so that even if bad values do enter the system, the game code handles it correctly.
That said, you can probably never quash all online exploits, but with the right attitude, you can do a pretty good job at it.
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URUS FORGE
Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:52:00 -
[193]
Edited by: URUS FORGE on 11/02/2009 22:52:45 Now that this t2 mat has been fixed.. are you now implementing a new bug to exploit t3 prior to its release..
Would Dr double eye patch ..chief economist for bernie madoff.. care to explain how this new t3 exploit won't impact the eve economy using graphs from one system and less than 10% of those involved in the exploit prior to the news of t3 mat exploits getting out in 1 year from today?
You could save us all a lot of time, and maybe we might really believe the next one was an oversight too
Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:15:00 -
[194]
Given that this exploit is considered to have existed since the very first starbase was deployed and given the nature of your average human to see what will happen if they stick their finger in a power socket, it's safe to assume that the data the economist has had to work on has been tainted since day one and that those employing this exploit were also very aware that should they push their luck and boost production too far, they would be discovered and what has happened to them now would have happened to them a lot sooner.
This is however all besides the point. Personally I'm far more interested in the following question:
Can I has their stuffs? One client: Three Screens! |
Janath Keyes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:40:00 -
[195]
Thanks for the detailed report. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 01:07:00 -
[196]
Quote:
We are not responsible for faulty code: CCP is
We are responsible for reporting the faults AND not exploit them at personal advantage.
Quote:
And i am willing to bet that all involved programmers and gm's etc are still there and still being payed even though they messed up big time, several times
Are they "a director"? No.
At that date they were driven by missing company policies and poorer checking tools, whose responsibility is off the lead tester / game designer who in turn answer to the "director(s)" (with more steps in the process depending on company size). In the end, the bigger issues bubble up and escalate guess what, to the "director".
He's the guy going around in a Porsche but also the guy putting out his face and be pounded in case of grave matters. Exactly like in game.
Quote:
It does not make you automatically responsible for others people actions just because you have a role within the corp.
What makes you think they were not informed? Do you really believe in the fable of the poor ingenuous director who suddenly see trillions passing thru is corporation and he's sincerely without any role in it?
Do you really believe someone out of the blue decides: "hey, let's install some multiple POS to feed the cash cow" and a director won't notice those so tiny cash movements involved at setting up a POS? When the titans start popping up like Rifters, does the director pat the "genius dudes" on the shoulder without any possible involvement or knowledge?
Do you REALLY believe in summary executions taken without checking out the logs for the massive transactions which have for sure not been managed by a fresh recruit?
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 03:56:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Valeria Crossroads on 12/02/2009 03:57:07
Quote: We are responsible for reporting the faults AND not exploit them at personal advantage.
Partly right, no where in the ULA it is mentioned we have to report people who are doing something wrong. We are only responsible for our own actions.
Quote: He's the guy going around in a Porsche but also the guy putting out his face and be pounded in case of grave matters. Exactly like in game.
Wrong again. In rl i am responsible for my employees. In game i am not. Every one is responsible for their own actions. And if i am mistaken please point me to the right section of the ULA.
Quote:
What makes you think they were not informed? Do you really believe in the fable of the poor ingenuous director who suddenly see trillions passing thru is corporation and he's sincerely without any role in it?
Do you really believe someone out of the blue decides: "hey, let's install some multiple POS to feed the cash cow" and a director won't notice those so tiny cash movements involved at setting up a POS? When the titans start popping up like Rifters, does the director pat the "genius dudes" on the shoulder without any possible involvement or knowledge?
What makes you think only one business model exists? What makes you think all cash flows go through the corp wallets? My corp exists of freelancers. We hate rules, we like freedom. Trusted people can get the right to setup a pos. They pay for the pos, they maintain it and they get the rewards from it. Not a single isk goes through the corp wallet. And what you do not realize is that some people are very rich. I know people who have over 1 trillion isk (mainly capital builders and t2 bpo resellers). I myself can buy 3 titans easily. Setting up 300 complete large posses isk wise is doable for me and i am not even top dog in eve.
Quote:
Do you REALLY believe in summary executions taken without checking out the logs for the massive transactions which have for sure not been managed by a fresh recruit?
I can only go for what they wrote and they wrote that:
Quote:
Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit
What you assume what they did and what CCP wrote what they did is something different.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:58:00 -
[198]
Would CCP please allow the MD forum people to discuss this dev blog in MD? Not everyone wants to discuss the implications for the dysprosium products markets and there's no practical way to trace through 7+ pages of mostly unrelated posts to string together a discussion on this particular niche.
I understand that CCP wishes to reduce the number of threads and whining on this subject. But a reasonable compromise would be to create an official MD thread on MD to discuss the relevant parts. Please consider it.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2009.02.12 08:41:00 -
[199]
2 questions,
1. Will the 30 Tech II BPOs be reseeded?
2. Does this mean reporting an macroe`r will get some attention? Because i have the feeling allot is falling true the cracks.
www.garia.net |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.12 08:44:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. Your programmers are a bunch of idiots that don't know how to test their code properly it seems.
Actually, stale cache corruption bugs are typically the work of good programmers; bad programmers aren't sophisticated enough to use caching and hinting techniques to optimize their code. And race conditions (which this effectively was) are notoriously difficult to debug.
A good programmer will not cache a DYNAMIC structure status without forced reevaluation on each structure change.
Basicaly the reactor production flag should have been reset after any link to it was changed. This did not happen and was a huge hole in the production chain.
Also from the description in the blog, I fear the POS code (or controll tower) features many more traps like this. Since the POS is a rather monolitic code block centered around the tower. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:09:00 -
[201]
Quote:
Partly right, no where in the ULA it is mentioned we have to report people who are doing something wrong. We are only responsible for our own actions
I don't act just because there's an ULA stating what's right or wrong but also because of my own. If I see someone making insane cheated ISK I feel it'll impact me negatively sooner or later and so I report them even if the ULA does not strictly push me to do that.
Quote:
Wrong again. In rl i am responsible for my employees. In game i am not. Every one is responsible for their own actions. And if i am mistaken please point me to the right section of the ULA.
The ULA might not state every possibility (impossible) but the statement:
Dude in your corp exploits => "Somehow" YOU director earn trillions => YOU are responsible is very simple to make. We are not talking of some rogue faceless employee hiddenly photocopying his buttcheecks on the photocopier but of directors who became billionaire and not out of thin air.
Can't state: "how did CCP's economist not see the huge money flow" like several did in this thread, when you director don't want to see the huge money flow coming out your very corporation.
Quote:
We hate rules, we like freedom.
TBH no one cares if you hate rules. I hate CONCORD killing me if I shoot at a guy in 1.0 sec (I even joined FW to have more choices) but that's the game we got. If tomorrow CCP puts black on white about director = fully responsible, there you go with your freedom, it's their product not yours.
Quote:
They pay for the pos, they maintain it and they get the rewards from it. Not a single isk goes through the corp wallet. And what you do not realize is that some people are very rich. I know people who have over 1 trillion isk (mainly capital builders and t2 bpo resellers).
If you can write such an elaborate statement, you can also understand they checked the transactions logs and banned the directors, they just happen to be very very easily involved in this sort of things.
Quote:
A good programmer will not cache a DYNAMIC structure status without forced reevaluation on each structure change.
It has been years ago, when the game was not even fully developed, the coding practices still green and the optimization requirements often "take the hand" off the programmers so they venture onto risky avenues and "assumptions". Problem is, you focus on how "idiots" they were in the past (that is, unchangeable), but we have no idea about the present or the future new practices. This is where I'd focus a criticism.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.02.12 09:17:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Garia666 2 questions,
1. Will the 30 Tech II BPOs be reseeded?
2. Does this mean reporting an macroe`r will get some attention? Because i have the feeling allot is falling true the cracks.
1. No (There is a dev post someplace saying that...)
2. I think they slip through too, but we'll see.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Dracira Dracc
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Posted - 2009.02.12 10:03:00 -
[203]
Can we have a list of the removed T2 BPOs :-)
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.02.12 10:56:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Lore Varan
About 2 months ago I created a petition about a possible exploit.
I wasnt sure if it was an exploit or not. It was a way of getting cheap stuff not free stuff. The response I got was that the issue needed to be moved to a different queue as it couldnt be investigated under a stuck petition , I'm sure I filed it under exploit but thats beside the point.
The petition I created was autoclosed by the system. So I am left now not knowing if the issue I described was an exploit or not, and have no idea if its under investigation or not :(
Would it be worth re-creating the exploit petition now to take advantage of your new improved procedures in case the issue has been forgotten like those 2005 petition u mentioned in the blog ?
well it's easy re-create it - with the log server running and file a bug report then file a petition in the correct catagory -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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Paulo Banderez
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:13:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Jaisan Will CCP be taking legal action to recover any monies made by RMT the exploited isk ?
Just an account ban is no punishment for real world benifits made from this exploit.
What did you have in mind? I don't think any laws were broken. If so, its a matter for the police.
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CrabClaw McGraw
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Posted - 2009.02.12 12:36:00 -
[206]
The blog is excellent but I'm dissapointed that this bug was reported to CCP on more than one occasion and it was not fixed. This is yet another in a long line of mistakes made by CCP. |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:29:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 12/02/2009 13:32:33
Originally by: Paulo Banderez
Originally by: Jaisan Will CCP be taking legal action to recover any monies made by RMT the exploited isk ?
Just an account ban is no punishment for real world benifits made from this exploit.
What did you have in mind? I don't think any laws were broken. If so, its a matter for the police.
Technically, it could be considered to be Fraud as the person receiving the funds is selling an item that doesn't belong to him (As all ingame items, including ISK and Characters are the Property of CCP as Defined in the EULA). However, as the Real Money is coming from the ISK Buyer and not from CCP then CCP could not recover the Funds. The ISK Buyer could technically try to recover his money by legal action from the ISK Seller.
Successfully pursuing it in court however, is a different matter, especially considering that not all Countries Laws are the same. Big Can of Worms there. ---------------
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PJRiddick
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:29:00 -
[208]
a couple this i wouldlike to point out here, 1) the detail that the report went into was emacualte to say the least. The question is that i have is how did CCP and there ecnomist come up with all that data in such a short time. It leads me to wonder if CCP/the economist had some inside knolege of the dealings there within the exploit. 2) Scence BoBs demise and all the people have been delt with however im wondering just how many of these people are sitll in game and if they can be trusted. it seems to me that if the people at CCP are gmaers themselves that they would have inside knolege of said exploits and how to use them. As far as im concerned this would only be a conflict of interest on the part of CCP. OH and a third point here,..... Just how much money >IRL< has changed hands scence all this money ISK has been made, and where did it go,.... I said earlier in one of my other rantings that it looked as if the ISK sellers were having fun making isk to sell. The demise of the exploit only dampened the income of these isk sellers,...but to what extent. Remember that these people that sell the isk not only use EVE to make money,..they farm out about all the MMORPGs for there income. Do the people that work at CCP farm eve as wellfor suplemental income by selling ISK? Im not pointing fingers That is just food for thought. >R<
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:34:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Technically, it could be considered to be Fraud as the person receiving the funds is selling an item that doesn't belong to him (As all ingame items, including ISK and Characters are the Property of CCP as Defined in the EULA)
Successfully pursuing it in court however, is a different matter, especially considering that not all Countries Laws are the same. Big Can of Worms there.
It is actually a service agreement, not a fake property sale. You pay them money to spend the time earning ISK and then they give the ISK to you. That's why it's so difficult to smash it under the legal hammer.
This is also the reason why the arguments for a property tax on virtual 'goods' are a failure.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.12 13:53:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Tasko Pal Would CCP please allow the MD forum people to discuss this dev blog in MD? Not everyone wants to discuss the implications for the dysprosium products markets and there's no practical way to trace through 7+ pages of mostly unrelated posts to string together a discussion on this particular niche.
I understand that CCP wishes to reduce the number of threads and whining on this subject. But a reasonable compromise would be to create an official MD thread on MD to discuss the relevant parts. Please consider it.
Seconded, the thread locked there in had nothing but market implications and attempting to sift through the loltastic crap this thread is sure to deliver is going to be a chore |
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Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.02.12 14:24:00 -
[211]
A question for the devs... Why did you design it that way, as opposed to using just-in-time calculation? I should think that JIT calculation would be just as easy on the DB, and less prone to these kinds of logical optimization errors.
(Specifically, since most of the values for a POS aren't actually used unless and until someone requests them, it would make sense to simply record the last time JIT calculations ran, and store all of the values, and then the next time values are requested, run all of the calculations that would have happened in the intervening time all at once. I'd imagine most of the operations would lend themselves to essentially taking time passed as a multiplier, so you wouldn't be doing too much extra work. All you'd have to do is have a timer to check every now and then that the POS hasn't run out of fuel, which itself can be forecast so the only thing you'd have to check every X minutes is whether you've reached that point yet...)
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:20:00 -
[212]
That was quite a read. Hats off to CCP for proving they did a solid investigation, and also for publishing such an extensive blog on it detailing what happened, what the impact was and which steps have been taken - both in terms of punishment and adjustment of working procedures. CCP, thou rocketh!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:21:00 -
[213]
Some facts about ferrofluid and dysporite - both materials directly involved in making ferrogel and fermionic condensates. Both materials are intermediate materials and made directly from moon materials.
Conventional production of ferrofluid dysprosium + hafnium costs: 82.000 isk/unit
Alchemy production of ferrofluid cadmium + hafnium costs: 63.000 isk/unit
Conventional production of dysporite dysprosium + mercury costs: 84.000 isk/unit
Alchemy production of dysporite cadmium + mercury costs: 64.500 isk/unit
In above numbers the pos fuel costs are already included.
Alchemy produces the intermediate materials in much smaller quantities, that means that you need a lot more (20 times more) reactors to produce the materials with alchemy than with conventional means.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:26:00 -
[214]
I noticed for weeks on now that fermionic condensates are sold in Jita for much cheaper prices than building costs.
At current prices the fermionic condensates production with a pos causes at least 500k isk loss per hour.
Can CCP please investigate this? This is not a normal market fluktuation because, something strange is going on there. I said the same about ferrogel before the pos exploit was revealed.
Could it be that something is still not working as intended, that still some exploit is possible? Or could it be that there is still some large cache of illegal material available which is now sold?
Ferrogel seems to be fine. Only the condensates are strange.
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Renfrew Shrufan
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:45:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Gnulpie I noticed for weeks on now that fermionic condensates are sold in Jita for much cheaper prices than building costs.
At current prices the fermionic condensates production with a pos causes at least 500k isk loss per hour.
Can CCP please investigate this? This is not a normal market fluktuation because, something strange is going on there. I said the same about ferrogel before the pos exploit was revealed.
Could it be that something is still not working as intended, that still some exploit is possible? Or could it be that there is still some large cache of illegal material available which is now sold?
Ferrogel seems to be fine. Only the condensates are strange.
Yeah - as nothing gets sold for less than what it's worth.
I think I've got at least a couple of dozen researched BPO's that if I built the items from mineral cost - I'd be losing ISK.
What's your point?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.12 15:52:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan I think I've got at least a couple of dozen researched BPO's that if I built the items from mineral cost - I'd be losing ISK.
What's your point?
And, are you building from it? No...
Believe me, those guys who manage the pos and moon reactions certainly KNOW what they are doing and they do not sell with loss.
It can happen that you sell with a loss sometimes because a sudden price spike, yes. But not for weeks on. There is something going on.
WTF is wrong with poining CCP towards it so that they can have a closer look??? If they look and say, all okay, then fine. But they better have again a closer look.
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Renfrew Shrufan
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.12 16:16:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan I think I've got at least a couple of dozen researched BPO's that if I built the items from mineral cost - I'd be losing ISK.
What's your point?
And, are you building from it? No...
Believe me, those guys who manage the pos and moon reactions certainly KNOW what they are doing and they do not sell with loss.
It can happen that you sell with a loss sometimes because a sudden price spike, yes. But not for weeks on. There is something going on.
WTF is wrong with poining CCP towards it so that they can have a closer look??? If they look and say, all okay, then fine. But they better have again a closer look.
I'm sure they do know what's going on. I'd build from it too if I didn't feel that my time doesn't matter - which, unfortunately, many people seem to feel as if that's the case. Selling for under actual costs is rampant within Eve.
I'm okay with someone having a look, but it's just not that uncommon in Eve really. I'd think it's just someone needing fast ISK for something, and it happens all the time. Yes, even for weeks on end on major items that cost multiple 10's of millions or much more.
You've also never specified any real volume and or costing details, which makes me wonder at your sincerity, as it should be easily available if you were all that concerned. As I'm at work, I can only reach a very few websites and not the game, so I can't check it out myself - even if I'd care to visit Jita.
Anyway, my basic point was that selling at what some would consider a loss is a very valid and widely used tactic here at times. After all, some ISK is better than none, it all depends on actual and perceived buy and sell prices only, and it can actually yield better overall profits in some cases. *shrugs*
My only problem with demanding that CCP investigate every item sold at a loss is that they'd never have anything else to do.
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Valeria Crossroads
Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.12 19:10:00 -
[218]
Quote: I don't act just because there's an ULA stating what's right or wrong but also because of my own. If I see someone making insane cheated ISK I feel it'll impact me negatively sooner or later and so I report them even if the ULA does not strictly push me to do that.
If you agree with me that its a choice and not a must then why not say: yeah, you are right?
Quote: The ULA might not state every possibility (impossible) but the statement:
Dude in your corp exploits => "Somehow" YOU director earn trillions => YOU are responsible is very simple to make. We are not talking of some rogue faceless employee hiddenly photocopying his buttcheecks on the photocopier but of directors who became billionaire and not out of thin air.
Can't state: "how did CCP's economist not see the huge money flow" like several did in this thread, when you director don't want to see the huge money flow coming out your very corporation.
And in my example on how my corps works i just showed you that there are organization models where a director does not see all money streams, so an automatic ban is unfair.
Quote:
TBH no one cares if you hate rules. I hate CONCORD killing me if I shoot at a guy in 1.0 sec (I even joined FW to have more choices) but that's the game we got. If tomorrow CCP puts black on white about director = fully responsible, there you go with your freedom, it's their product not yours.
The question is: does a director always know about all money streams? I showed you in my example you can cannot say for 100% sure. So a automatic ban is unfair. You cannot convict if there is reasonable doubt.
Quote:
If you can write such an elaborate statement, you can also understand they checked the transactions logs and banned the directors, they just happen to be very very easily involved in this sort of things.
And again you assume stuff. They did not wrote: we checked the logs and where the directors were proofed involved: they were banned. No they wrote: if director: is involved -> thus banned. You can try to ignore time after time again what they wrote they did and make some possible story up. But its nothing more or less than what they wrote. Not some fantasy story of your imagination.
My bpc shop: click here for stock and prices. Works in game too. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.13 09:10:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan My only problem with demanding that CCP investigate every item sold at a loss is that they'd never have anything else to do.
Of course I am not demanding anything. I just suggest that they have a look there because it still looks unregular for weeks now.
If they take suggestions or not is up to them, not my business.
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Renfrew Shrufan
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:52:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan My only problem with demanding that CCP investigate every item sold at a loss is that they'd never have anything else to do.
Of course I am not demanding anything. I just suggest that they have a look there because it still looks unregular for weeks now.
If they take suggestions or not is up to them, not my business.
Sounds good, sorry to have been so... opinionated yesterday - way too cranky then for some reason fwiw.
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SkyMeetFire
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.13 16:29:00 -
[221]
Quote: The opening action on our part regarding the exploit included the total destruction of all the POS complexes involved. This entailed flying to each one and basically nuking everything in sight - a fireworks show of epic proportions but with no witnesses except the GMs in the demolition team.
Please tell me someone had the foresight to record this using FRAPS or something of the like. I'm assuming something of that magnitude rarely happens, might be something interesting to have around...
For some reason as soon as I read that line, I just imagined a video of dozens of POSs being blown up set to the 1812 Overture. I know, cliche, but I doubt anyone can deny that it would be gloriously entertaining to see dupers get their just rewards... |
Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.02.13 18:11:00 -
[222]
Quote: Just how much money >IRL< has changed hands scence all this money ISK has been made, and where did it go,....
tl;dr - these people could have made between $113,736 and $253,736 over a two year period.
---
For comparison, a 60 day gamecard costs around US$35 and sells for around 700,000,000 ISK. The first link I found on google offers 1,500,000,000 for around US$35. At least 6,000,000,000,000 ISK and at most 12,000,000,000,000 ISK was created using this exploit. 134 accounts were found to be implicit in the scam since 2007
For the sake of simplicity, we'll calculate assuming that these figures have been static, that all these accounts were being "paid" for using time cards & that every single ISK remaining went into RMT:
134 accounts @ 350,000,000 ISK/Month for 24 months = 1,125,600,000,000 ISK 6,000,000,000,000 - 1,125,600,000,000 = 4,874,400,000,000 12,000,000,000,000 - 1,125,600,000,000 = 10,874,400,000,000 ( 4,874,400,000,000 / 1,500,000,000 ) * 35 = 113,736 ( 10,874,400,000,000 / 1,500,000,000 ) * 35 = 253,736
If then we assume that this entire system was intended for RMT, potential these people made between $113,736 and $253,736 over a two year period. That's not a bad wage really, for running a few POS chains...
Of course these figures are worst case scenario. Even if all of these accounts were involved in RMT over this period, the actual amount of money would be lower, but probably still just into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Personally I doubt that many were involved in RMT, but I was intruiged enough to do the math, so here it is!
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Droog 1
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Posted - 2009.02.15 11:44:00 -
[223]
I am not surpriised that CCP didn't fix this bug when it was first reported. After all these are the same people that thought ghost training was a bug.
CCP fail again.
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Cadela Fria
Amarr x13 X13 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.15 17:58:00 -
[224]
Originally by: URUS FORGE Edited by: URUS FORGE on 11/02/2009 22:52:45 Now that this t2 mat has been fixed.. are you now implementing a new bug to exploit t3 prior to its release..
Would Dr double eye patch ..chief economist for bernie madoff.. care to explain how this new t3 exploit won't impact the eve economy using graphs from one system and less than 10% of those involved in the exploit prior to the news of t3 mat exploits getting out in 1 year from today?
You could save us all a lot of time, and maybe we might really believe the next one was an oversight too
You never cease to make me laugh..you spent so much time with tinfoil hattery, saying CCP would never respond, keep their promises or come through with an explanation, or own up to their guilty guilty selves about what *REALLY* happened, and how you're a business man yourself of such proportions that at best you're the owner of Sony, or Microsoft..Then CCP comes around and gives you EXACTLY what you were afraid of, a thorough answer and indepth analysis, which ultimately has left you looking like a complete moron.
And all you can do now..is make a snide, butthurt, feeling-like-an-idiot, unintelligent troll remark about how they will purposely implement an exploit for T3.
You're a real piece of work. Oh I'm sorry, I know you will try to defend yourself and save face.."damage control" right? Sure go ahead with that, it's all you have left. By the way I think x-files is on, don't miss your regular dose of inspiration of how it REALLY all works.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.02.16 06:58:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Renfrew Shrufan
WTF is wrong with poining CCP towards it so that they can have a closer look??? If they look and say, all okay, then fine. But they better have again a closer look.
My only problem with demanding that CCP investigate every item sold at a loss is that they'd never have anything else to do.
yah
Lets face if it they did that then they would be double checking *all* of my buy orders and I dont do the .01 isk region wide orders. (I set mine ~.1 to .01 the lowest current sell order, they often get filled that day or the next even when minerals are spikeing up)
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Guterro d'Tefiane
Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 11:28:00 -
[226]
That was a very nice report. A lot of damage was done to this game when news of the exploit first came out. I'm glad to see CCP take such serious measures. Well done. |
URUS FORGE
Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:29:00 -
[227]
If they took it serious.. it wouldnt have happend for as much as 4yrs.
Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
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Che Biko
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:45:00 -
[228]
Quote: Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state. Others that were found to be involved in moving the exploited goods and laundering the ISK also received bans for their part.
I am wondering how sure CCP is about some people being involved were knowingly breaking the EULA. Was it considered they could be scapegoats or something? I could see myself moving stuff from silo's without knowing how my corp got them.
If there was some doubt about whether they knew what they were doing, would they receive bans for more than a month? Or would punishment be restricted to removal of assets/ISK? Because if there was doubt, I'd prefer the latter.
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Tari Redhel
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:32:00 -
[229]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way CCP used to detect the cheaters only detected those who were actively cheating in December 2008: Checking which reactors were currently running in buggy mode, and then estimating how much conterfeit they had produced based on when they were anchored/onlined(?).
However this would not detect cheaters who switched over to running their reactors in a non-bugged mode at any time before December 2008.
It might seem that any cheaters who had gotten away with it for months would be unlikely to suddenly stop and go legit for no reason. But there actually are several plausible reasons. It might be that every six months or so they shut down their cheating corp and start up cheating in a new corp (with new characters), so as to safe-harbour their previous profits. Or they might have stopped because they noticed that knowledge of the exploit started to become so widespread that they felt it was just a matter of time before CCP would hear about it. Or they might have received inside information. It wouldn't even have had to be information about that the reactor exploit had been reported. Even just the fact that an exploit had been reported would have been enough for them to shut down and camouflage by switching their reactors to legitimate reactions.
So since the evidence about how long the exploit has been exploited is inconclusive, might there be some other way of seeing if it started earlier? One way would be to see if there are any unexplained changes in price/volume of any of the goods in the period before the exploitation of the exploit is supposed to have started. The graphs linked in the article is certainly suggestive. There is a big jump in trade volume of Fermionic Condensates in November 2007, while the large scale exploiting doesn't take off until February 2008. And looking at the Ferrogel it is possible that it started as early as July 2006 (!), when it dropped below the 10k ISK line, a level it would not reach again until Fall 2007.
This isn't proof of course. But I think it shows that it is possible that the cheaters that were caught weren't all those who had used this exploit, or even a majority of them, but merely the last wave.
I would therefore suggest that CCP, if it is possible, use backups to check the status of all reactors 1) 2 weeks before the Bug was reported. 2) Every 3-6 months before that. If any bugged reactions are discovered in reactors that in December 2008 were offlined/unanchored/switched to non-bugged, a more fine-meshed search would be called for.
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Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2009.02.19 01:52:00 -
[230]
Thank you, for a straight forward blog this is what I expect and rarely ever get from anywhere these days. 2 comments 1. dont reissue the T2 BPO's the less of them that exist the better. 2. With the expanding player base the Cap on high end materials quantities are gonna cause inflation. A large portion of the market is now supplied by the Inventors not the T2 Bpo holders. We do not have an easy profit margin to work within. Every increase in materials cost broadens the gulf between the Bpo holders and the inventors bottom line price.
Shouldn't the cost of a product, in particular a product that has been in production for several years, be delegated by the resources required to produce that product. Not who was lucky enough to have won a lottery 4 years ago.
Susung
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Gemberkoekje
Gallente Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2009.02.19 09:14:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Tari Redhel Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way CCP used to detect the cheaters only detected those who were actively cheating in December 2008: Checking which reactors were currently running in buggy mode, and then estimating how much conterfeit they had produced based on when they were anchored/onlined(?).
You are wrong. Read the blog again.
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Tari Redhel
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.20 13:38:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Gemberkoekje
Originally by: Tari Redhel Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way CCP used to detect the cheaters only detected those who were actively cheating in December 2008: Checking which reactors were currently running in buggy mode, and then estimating how much conterfeit they had produced based on when they were anchored/onlined(?).
You are wrong. Read the blog again.
Yes, its quite possible I'm wrong. It can be that they only detected current cheating, or it can be that they detected past cheating too. From the blog it isn't possible to tell which:
Quote: All information on the production states and links of running POSes was available in the database. After developing a fix, we slapped together a query that ran through all the POS Reactors on TQ, checking which ones had links pointing to them, and checking their production states. Any online reactor that had no links pointing to it, and yet was still reporting itself as having produced output last turn, was compiled into a list.
This detects current cheating.
Quote: Our estimate is that the exploiting parties made between six and 12 trillion ISK from this exploit. Taking the data available at the time of discovery, which showed the length of time the reactors had been used for the exploit, and looking at the per-unit value of the exploited items, showed us that the minimum was six trillion. Taking into account reactors that have been used historically and considering higher prices in the past, we believe the upper limit of how much could have been made to be around 12 trillion.
Here the current cheating is used as a minimum. "We believe the upper limit of how much could have been made" It sounds like they estimated it not measured it. But you are right that it doesn't prove anything. It could just be sloppy writing.
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KISOGOKU
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Posted - 2009.02.21 06:32:00 -
[233]
Tip for lazy ,Go to first page and read CCP Diagoras post
Originally by: Tari Redhe.
Yes, its quite possible I'm wrong. It can be that they only detected current cheating, or it can be that they detected past cheating too.
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:35:00 -
[234]
A detailed and comprehensive analysis - thank you Salvaging guide:moon materials guide |
Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.03.01 16:04:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Jin Entres on 01/03/2009 16:07:40 Considering the significant impact this exploit had on the prices of T2 items which use Ferrogel etc., one consequence of the exploitation could be argued to be the maintenance of the perception that the T2 market for these items ù both for manufacturing viability and cost efficiency of use ù was reasonable and balanced. This illusion of balance, if you will, may have resulted in a failure to recognise an imbalance that required action. It would be reasonable, therefore, to evaluate whether the exploit in fact did the market a favour (not the players in question obviously) and if a problem that was hidden by the effects of the exploitation now requires addressing as part of undoing the consequences of the exploitation.
----------------------
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Juang Mao
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Posted - 2009.03.05 22:50:00 -
[236]
Applaud CCP and lets not dwell on that which has past...
This whole situation is bad, has been dealt with responsibly by the deevs and staff, and on a complaint/petition numbers of 3 out of how many players? Its not hard to understand why it wasnt investigated as a major issue.
However, this issue has raised something that CCP has failed to deal with in the entire history of the game. The knock-on effect on markets supply and demand (prices) of removing such a large quantity of required production goods. This has not only led to the alliances controlling these high end goods to over price there produce, but in turn has sent the high end composite market into a spiral. This may not have as much effect on the bigger corporation, but as a snall production corp it has all but devasted our production. Alliance Only Tournaments. 0.0 Space control (sovreignty), Fleet Warfare, and so many more things we could all name it has become a game of big numbers.
This situation cannot be allowed to continue, without the end of an ingenious game.
I personally speak from experience as an ex-organiser of an events company we soon realised by having Uber Alliances, the background of our created world soon began to die as people no longer wanted to be 'one man in a crowd of thousands'. In other words, some wish to remain independant.
To put it another way, the world needs small to medium businesses in a 'real-world' economy, as any good economist would know. The Eve universe is no exception.
Its time for CCP to open up the moon mining and resources for more people - as the subscribers grow - so will demand. (incidentally this could be done easily and sensibly by using numbers in realtion to pos system sec status - i.e 0.0 Pos = max production, Pos in 0.1 = 90%, and so on and so forth until you get to 0.7 Pos = 20%. Yes some may say these numbers are too high - others will say too low - the numbers arent the issue. But this example would allow smaller producers to gain access to components (small amounts) without being ripped off by every alliance and market manipulator going.
It may also be time to finally review the skill book and market seeded BPO scams too. After a;;, its only been 3 and a half years since they said they fixed it.
Personally i also wonder if this game is so well rigged to the Super-Alliances - hust how much of the isk is flying out as RMT - which only seems to be growing.
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Alya Downs
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.22 23:20:00 -
[237]
Thank you for taking the time to explain in detail how this issue was handled. It is greatly appreciated. Swimming with Bricks. |
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