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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

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MadShade Atomic Biohazard 0	Posted - 2012.04.25 03:52:00 - [31] - Quote After the nerf landed i see 5-6 sites up all the time in the incursion systems so it`s obvios that doing them it`s not worthed anymore. I think that the nerf is a bit to harsh since the payout/h is less than doing lvl 4 missions which is bad in my opinion because doing incursions means that you need atleast some kind of coordonation and you need to team up with 10-11 players so there`s no reason why a team work pay less isk/hour than soloing lvl4s. I really hope that CCP will revert some of the changes!
Liliana Rahl Remote Soviet Industries 10	Posted - 2012.04.25 03:55:00 - [32] - Quote Johann Zateki wrote: Liliana Rahl wrote: Please stop. Too many tears. My brain can't handle the amusement. Its only the second page. Your troll is bad and you should feel bad you replied Op success.
Trinity Six Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.25 03:58:00 - [33] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: My thoughts on Incursions in they should be a CONCORD free zone even when theyre in High sec. The idea CONCORD can keep the peace when theres a pirate incursion going on is stupid Trinity Six wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: [quote=Trinity Six] (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead. lol... really? Hell 0.0 ppl what you guys been crying about... they didnt need to remove them, just nerf em 10% an ppl wont touch them it's more than 10%. 10% would have been fine. Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS Adapt or die Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons. Yes, they made it harder. We all agree that it should have been harder. You are generalizing the situation by making a blanket statement of 'durr dey made it harder. dat's a good ting." The fact that they're harder is great - we all agree with that. But wait - it takes 47 minutes to do a site now. With more people required to do it. Because of this, a social games' primary social PVE experience has been nerfed so much that it is unviable. In return, players are moving to a solo experience (level 4's or GASP! mining). Now do you see the issue here? MINING is now more profitable that a well-built social PVE experience. "durr its harder now. me like". that's good. go back to ratting or mining in hisec now, pubbie. Wow why do i bother with the general idiocy this forum provides.
Tenris Anis Schattenengel Clan 43	Posted - 2012.04.25 04:16:00 - [34] - Quote Vaal Erit wrote: Aratani wrote: Several high-end legion fleets, and fleets with purely shiny faction battleships have been talking about their current vanguard income being only slightly better than soloing l4's. A few public fleets from BTL pub (public shield incursion channel) were reporting doing one site every 15 minutes on average, netting them around 37m isk/hr assuming the fleet runs non-stop. Sounds like CCP got the nerf perfectly. Aratani wrote: Public fleets won't be formed anymore due to solo l4's becoming more profitable for them compared to doing vanguard sites in their current form. So unless at least some of the changes are reverted, or possibly bounties added to sansha, these changes will pretty much destroy incursions for the average player wanting to hop into a vanguard fleet for a few hours a week, the shiny blitz-fleets will be able to break the isk/hr of doing level 4's and will most likely be the only fleets in incursion vanguard systems a couple weeks from now. Thanks for confirming that the "social" aspect of Incursions was all a lie and the only thing you care about is isk payout per hr and nothing else. In fact, these changes give you more time shooting and less time warping around so that's more time to "socialize" and be in a fun and interesting group of people. I foresee a lot of useless alt accounts not being renewed with PLEX which will only mean good things. If this sounds for you perfectly, than you were aiming vgs hitting between l3s and l4s. Are you really serious with this claim? The second part of your post is simply invalid. First you start a personal attack, than you make a claim without any ground. Shooting, warping, docking, nothing of this stops me to socialize with my fleet mates. Actually I can even socialize with my corp mates while we all do separately level 4s. Do you try to discuss or do you want to troll, because if you want to discuss the topic at hand, you are doing not very well. Your Logical Fallacy is today: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
Tenris Anis Schattenengel Clan 43	Posted - 2012.04.25 04:24:00 - [35] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS Adapt or die Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons. Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts.
Johann Zateki Zateki Alliance 0	Posted - 2012.04.25 04:32:00 - [36] - Quote Tenris Anis wrote: Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts. From what I've heard assaults were also nerfed not buffed like they were supposed to be.
Keith Planck The Great and Powerful Corporation 125	Posted - 2012.04.25 04:42:00 - [37] - Quote i love all these people commenting on incursions that have prob never run them before ~~~ xD I also love how everyone who runs incursions is automatically assumed that their incursion runner is their only character and that's all they do in eve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i am dissapointed about the lack of tears though, i don't know what these other people are talking about i don't see any GOOD tears in here :/ squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle squiggle
Aryana Ucksth The First One is Always Free Test Alliance Please Ignore 13	Posted - 2012.04.25 05:11:00 - [38] - Quote C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun! Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :(
Trinity Six Hedion University Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.25 05:31:00 - [39] - Quote Aryana Ucksth wrote: C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun! Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :( This is fantastic. CCP do this.
Keith Planck The Great and Powerful Corporation 166	Posted - 2012.04.25 05:46:00 - [40] - Quote Aryana Ucksth wrote: C'mon CCP, the changes on Singularity were perfect, all you needed to do on top of that was reduce the payouts for nullsec to like 80%, reduce hisec to 50%, and leave lowsec at 100%. Sites would have been balanced at around 100m/hr for lowsec, armor vanguards and shield assaults could both run, and it would encourage hisec (no risk) runners and nullsec (no risk in friendly space) runners to come play in lowsec! It would have been fun! Now nobody is going to run incursions with me anymore :( hahahahaha, yeah, you try to make 90m/hr (payout nerf) with the new vanguard sites in nullsec, i dare you :P
Lynn Deniera The Foreign Legion Test Alliance Please Ignore 8	Posted - 2012.04.25 05:50:00 - [41] - Quote Trinity Six wrote: Sample of talk from lowsec: (7:29:29 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: so incrusions are on hold until ccp fix things? (7:29:34 PM) LowsecIncursioner2: :911: (7:29:37 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: pretty much ya (7:29:43 PM) LowsecIncursioner4: nope theyre destroyed unless they unfuck their **** (7:29:55 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: IF ccp fixes things. they're so goddam idiotic they probably think they're fine. (7:30:24 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: glad i didn't buy that bling bling scimi yet (7:30:38 PM) LowsecIncursioner3: altho i already had most of the fittings... (7:31:48 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: my ni scorp was just delivered today :negative: (7:32:36 PM) LowsecIncursioner5: So is it just assaults or are all incursions donesky (7:32:47 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: Vanguards and Assaults. (7:33:10 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: so can the group continue (7:33:18 PM) LowsecIncursioner1: or thats it, we-¦re disbanding? (7:33:25 PM) LowsecIncursioner6: As the mechanics stands, incursions are dead. Wow thats pretty much the same conversation we've had in our incursions group.
Templar Nato Clockwork Pineapple 1	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:07:00 - [42] - Quote Tenris Anis wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS Adapt or die Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons. Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts.
Johann Zateki Zateki Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:16:00 - [43] - Quote Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites. the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites
Keith Planck The Great and Powerful Corporation 168	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:17:00 - [44] - Quote Templar Nato wrote: Tenris Anis wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Oh yeah and they made it harder.... Something people have been asking CCP to do with PVE for YEARS Adapt or die Well, at least the 0.0 ppl will stop QQing about incursions and go back to QQing about lvl 4s while they quietly count the money made by their tech moons. Actually vgs are not really that much harder. They just need more time to get cleared. How is it harder to watch npcs explode longer? If they would have increased npc damage or reduced our tanks, but keep the maximum possible isk the same (minus those 10%), than I could agree that its harder. But that is not what they changed, they just make us now shoot longer on rats. Still you are right, adapt or die is the call and people already starting to adapt. Assaults are the new vgs. And vanguards are the new scouts. may i redirect you to this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100746&find=unread
Trinity Six Hedion University Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:18:00 - [45] - Quote Johann Zateki wrote: Templar Nato wrote: blah blah empty quoting If you read one post below that you would see that assaults take longer too and are not by any means the new vanguards and are in fact Tier3 scout sites. the only thing that didn't get nerfed were hq sites Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses.
xVx dreadnaught The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony 22	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:25:00 - [46] - Quote The thing I was hoping CCP would do and something that would be supported storyline would be... Sansha are running low on resources, they realise that they cannot sustain these assaults against Concord and the Capsuleers So He sells off the tech to the other pirate factions, so that they may be able to Invade Constellations using similar wormhole tech. This would bring great variety and each Pirate faction would have slightly different problems to overcome. Angel TP more and be higher DPS than current incursion NPC's Dark Blood Neut more and have harder tanks Shadow do high DPS at close range as well as dampen Gursista use more ECM and have most flexible range for DPS. The difference in what to expect in each type of incursion would mean needing to plan it differently and would remove the "cookie cutter" fleets. So all machs and all legions. Wouldn't just be the answer. You'd be forced to overcome different obstacles
Templar Nato Clockwork Pineapple 2	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:31:00 - [47] - Quote Trinity Six wrote: Ya, Assaults WERE going to be the new vanguards with what we saw on Sisi and read in the patch notes. Then CCP decided they actually love to lie to their gaming population, and ****** us all in our asses. Yeah, I was pretty surprised to see the changes on TQ were actually more severe that what we experimented with on Sisi. At this point is seems like a waste of development time to have poured so many resources into creating content like this only to make it pointless to run.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 1370	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:37:00 - [48] - Quote Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group. The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling. For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you.
Keith Planck The Great and Powerful Corporation 176	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:37:00 - [49] - Quote https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=100764&find=unread sign the petition to help fix the new assaults or vanguards or whatever **** YOU
Keith Planck The Great and Powerful Corporation 176	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:39:00 - [50] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Were I of an incursion-running mind, I'd invest the time and energy into figuring out the best way to capitalize on this sudden drop in interest in incursions. There's probably a lot of profit to be had for an innovative group. The reaction seen here is exactly why The Skunkworks took such glee in griefing incursions. When CCP yanked the rug out from under us (over and over and over again) we adapted and made the best of it. We found new ways to commit acts of piracy in high sec. Here we are, barely a day into this, and the entire "community" is throwing its hands up and saying "well, that's that, incursions are dead!" I'm not normally one to look down on others, but frankly this defeatism is appalling. For those of you who will get out there and figure out ways to restore your income level, I beg of you: don't share it with those who won't put in the effort themselves. Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity. is this what skunksworks has been reduced to? babysitting the forums looking for places they can talk themselves up :/ you guys need to get back in the game and start griefing people again
Slightly Degotoga Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:58:00 - [51] - Quote FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Enjoy the contest-free incursions and reap great rewards for your effort and creativity. FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: reap great rewards for your effort and creativity. FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: great rewards Hahahahahaha
Slightly Degotoga Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.25 06:59:00 - [52] - Quote Who the hell is skunkworks?
xVx dreadnaught The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony 22	Posted - 2012.04.25 07:06:00 - [53] - Quote really, I think blitz fleets will still be possible for the Vanguard sites. They may never be as profitable again. But it may just mean that they are more exact in what they have in fleet. Our group (mixed BS and cruisers) were alone in a VG system. And then an ISD player came along in a polaris frigate. Saying he was a reporter and thought it interesting that our group was the first one he'd seen doing OTA sites in the whole constellation. "only one's brave enough" - his exact words.
Templar Nato Clockwork Pineapple 2	Posted - 2012.04.25 07:13:00 - [54] - Quote xVx dreadnaught wrote: really, I think blitz fleets will still be possible for the Vanguard sites. They may never be as profitable again. I have no doubt that with time people who stick with incursions will figure out the best min/ max and get the times down a little, though the issue will be keeping the dedicated members in those Communities. People were obviously Incursioning first and foremost for the money and when Incursioning is no longer equally or more attractive than other alternatives I can't see people following the Incursion train everywhere.
Keith Planck The Great and Powerful Corporation 176	Posted - 2012.04.25 07:14:00 - [55] - Quote Slightly Degotoga wrote: Who the hell is skunkworks? whenever there is a glitch or an exploit that allows you to kill unaware/lightlydefended/non-pvp ships they find it and exploit it then they do a combination of complaining and acting like marytrs when its fixed honestly the first part about what they do, figuring out glitches and exploits sounds fun and intelligent and i give them kudos for that they just do it with the grace of a drunk Irishman
IMeres Hellfire Heavy Industries 6	Posted - 2012.04.25 07:21:00 - [56] - Quote First of all, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be (haven't tried Incursions post-nerf yet). It wouldn't be the first time people have cried 'X is dead' only for X to reemerge alive and well 1-2 months afterward. However, if once people really start trying adapt and theory-craft new setups the situation proves to really be as bad as people think, then yes, Incursions are dead.
Templar Nato Clockwork Pineapple 2	Posted - 2012.04.25 07:26:00 - [57] - Quote IMeres wrote: First of all, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be (haven't tried Incursions post-nerf yet). It wouldn't be the first time people have cried 'X is dead' only for X to reemerge alive and well 1-2 months afterward. However, if once people really start trying adapt and theory-craft new setups the situation proves to really be as bad as people think, then yes, Incursions are dead. I really hope someone does theorycraft something that works. We've definitely tried a number of things and haven't seen anything that makes a significant difference yet.
Cobalt Rookits Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2012.04.25 07:50:00 - [58] - Quote Super shiny fleet (multibillion ships), with an amazing booster ,running one heavy with only 2 logis and we could only drop vgs to 8 minutes on average. Same fleet could hit VGs pre-nerf under 3 mins between payouts. Its still doable, but most people wouldn't want to risk shiny ships for that kind of money. However, they nerfed VGs out of the isk/hr range of getting new people interested in doing them. I mean why would you run VGs, where there is site competition (although its probably going to be pretty dead) wait times and the serious risk of ship loss to gankers/bad players/bad luck when you compare it to safe L4s?. I mean if the payout is better on L4s, why would you go for more risk and less money?
xVx dreadnaught The Dude's Interstellar Enterprizes Quixotic Hegemony 22	Posted - 2012.04.25 08:06:00 - [59] - Quote Cobalt Rookits wrote: Super shiny fleet (multibillion ships), with an amazing booster ,running one heavy with only 2 logis and we could only drop vgs to 8 minutes on average. Same fleet could hit VGs pre-nerf under 3 mins between payouts. Its still doable, but most people wouldn't want to risk shiny ships for that kind of money. However, they nerfed VGs out of the isk/hr range of getting new people interested in doing them. I mean why would you run VGs, where there is site competition (although its probably going to be pretty dead) wait times and the serious risk of ship loss to gankers/bad players/bad luck when you compare it to safe L4s?. I mean if the payout is better on L4s, why would you go for more risk and less money? That's my point, it's all about risk/reward A lot of people see incursion runners as super safe and never taking any risks... But if that's the case then why was there need for a "blacklist" containing the names of everyone that ever griefed an incursion fleet that we know of. Incursion fleets don't die often but when they do... I feel like a bit of a meme here... They die with billions of isk in loot being dropped.
Gonzo TheGreat Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire 6	Posted - 2012.04.25 08:37:00 - [60] - Quote Slightly Degotoga wrote: Who the hell is skunkworks? You've never run incursions have you ? or did you just start doing the great social pve experience after January 2012 ? also , \o Skunks ! xVx dreadnaught wrote: [quote=Cobalt Rookits]Incursion fleets don't die often but when they do... I feel like a bit of a meme here... They die with billions of isk in loot being dropped. Try w-space fleets, and they die a lot more often and no one is whining

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