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welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.03.05 10:28:00 - [121] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/03/2009 10:30:23 Originally by: Cedric Diggory Originally by: Naomi Knight Yes brutix is better sniper than the ferox. Oh and how can you snipe from bs snipe range (170km) with the ferox?you cant. Seriously, what are you smoking? Even with FOUR TRACKING COMPUTERS RUNNING OPTIMAL SCRIPTS the Brutix maxes out at 95 optimal, 15 falloff. That's 0 DPS at 125km. The Ferox with NO TRACKING COMPUTERS hits 97 optimal and 15 falloff, meaning that without any tracking mods the Ferox will outdamage the Brutix at 125km. Add the same four optimal range tracking computers and you have 143km optimal and 15 falloff. The best possible range using all available slots and focusing on nothing else for a Brutix is 95km optimal + 23km falloff for 0 dps at 141km. The same principle applied to the Ferox gives 143km optimal + 23km falloff for 0 dps at 189km. It should also be noted that due to the Ferox having a resist bonus, it also has higher EHP in this same crazy pure sniper configuration. If we scale these setups back to try and balance range, DPS and EHP, the Ferox will win every single time. The Brutix only takes over once you drop within 75km of your targets. What exactly are you planning on shooting with spike at those ranges? Stations? It doesn't track anything that a Ferox has a hope of destroying at those kinds of ranges. If you're going to compare the ships as support snipers you need to come waaaay down to CN Tungsten range. So this statement: Quote: Bingo. Brutix is a midrange sniper, not a sniper platform. It should sit with the Beam Zealots and other high damage, high risk HACs. Ferox sits with the snipers. Is false, the Ferox cannot sit with the BS snipers and fulfill its role. You're talking 115km max. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.05 10:39:00 - [122] Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 05/03/2009 10:40:14 Quote: Is false, the Ferox cannot sit with the BS snipers and fulfill its role. You're talking 115km max. You're talking *****s. 125km is the theoretical max of the Brutix, 189km is the theoretical max of the Ferox. Quote: What exactly are you planning on shooting with spike at those ranges? Stations? It doesn't track anything that a Ferox has a hope of destroying at those kinds of ranges. If you're going to compare the ships as support snipers you need to come waaaay down to CN Tungsten range. At 150km, you'd be amazed how well it tracks. Fire up SiSi and try it if you don't believe me. --- Originally by:** 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.03.05 10:46:00 - [123] Give it a rest mate, I've flown Eagles for years and Spike M doesn't even track moving frigates/dictors at 230km nevermind 140km. Sure, you may get the odd fortunate volley when their transversal is low but otherwise it isn't happening. Flying without an mwd aswell... No. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.05 11:36:00 - [124] Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 05/03/2009 11:38:04 Quote: Spike M doesn't even track moving frigates/dictors at 230km nevermind 140km. Sure, you may get the odd fortunate volley when their transversal is low but otherwise it isn't happening. Flying without an mwd aswell... No. Appeal to Authority? Doesn't cut it. Your previous post also contained the fallacy "moving the goalposts", but I let that slide. Even so that problem isn't with the Ferox, but with medium railgun ammo. The Brutix trying to use Spike would suffer exactly the same problems. As for flying without an MWD... Not flown many Amarr ships, huh? --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.03.05 22:00:00 - [125] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/03/2009 22:04:20 Erm, yeah actually, I fly all sub-BS amarr ships (apart from the electronic frigates). I'm guessing you're referring to the Geddon and the Retribution, neither of which are particuarly suited to sniping? All the other Amarr ships can pack an mwd easily enough. Whats your point? Wrt the Ferox I was stating that using spike as a benchmark for comparing sub-bs fleet snipers is contrary to their role. Not entirely sure why you consider that to be "shifting the goalposts" when the thread is about the Ferox' damage output. Fact is, spike doesn't work consistently against the Ferox' preferable target. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.06 02:21:00 - [126] How about a bonus to the effectiveness of tracking computers for the ferox instead of a resist bonus? --- Put in space whales!
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.06 02:39:00 - [127] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 06/03/2009 02:39:22 Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen 7th turret + more fitting to actually squese it in could do the trick. Even now Ferox is extremely PG-deficient. This really. Would make Ferox a nice ship. The extra PG to fit a gang link even better. As for the resistance bonus, no its a good bonus and should stay.
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.06 02:45:00 - [128] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 06/03/2009 02:39:22 Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen 7th turret + more fitting to actually squese it in could do the trick. Even now Ferox is extremely PG-deficient. This really. Would make Ferox a nice ship. The extra PG to fit a gang link even better. As for the resistance bonus, no its a good bonus and should stay. I think there could be a better bonus to replace it. Even another stupid optimal range bonus would be better. Let it shoot past 150km reliably. --- Put in space whales!
Heloise ChateauBriande	Posted - 2009.03.06 04:37:00 - [129] Tagami, The Assault launcher reduces the spread of heat through the high slots right? Is that what you meant about its placement? - Helo P.S. Fit looks good I may try it.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.06 10:03:00 - [130] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/03/2009 22:08:12 Erm, yeah, I fly all sub-BS amarr ships (apart from the electronic frigates). I'm guessing you're referring to the Geddon and the Retribution, neither of which are particuarly suited to sniping? All the other Amarr snipers can pack an mwd easily enough. Whats your point? Look at the Cruisers. Omen lacks the PG to fit even FMP and a MWD, Maller can fit the MWD with FMP but does zero damage as it's a tank-bonused ship. Prophecy has the same problems as the Maller, then there's the Geddon. Then there's the Absolution, which regularly is flown without a MWD. As for sniping, my point was that there can be no comparison: Caldari are the only race to receive turret bonuses specifically aimed at sniping. The point also remains: How many sniper fits do you know that fit a MWD? Quote: Wrt the Ferox I was stating that using spike as a benchmark for comparing sub-bs fleet snipers is contrary to their role. Not entirely sure why you consider that to be "shifting the goalposts" when the thread is about the Ferox' damage output. Fact is, spike doesn't work consistently against the Ferox' preferable target. It's shifting the goalposts because it entails discussion over the state of Spike M, which is outwith the scope of this topic. --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts

Tzeriz	Posted - 2009.03.07 13:09:00 - [131] Kinda have to agree on this post, Ferox could really use a 7th turret to be made a proper Battlecruiser, instead of the joke it currently is, Brutix has 50m3 dronebay compared to the Ferox 25m3 dronebay aswell, and apart from that the ships are pretty indentical minus the bonuses they get, and the fact that Ferox only has 6 turrets compared to the 7 Brutix has. And bigger drone bay/bandwidth as mentioned above:S Ferox + 1 turret Hardpoint please.
Kissapasi Kissapasi Corporation Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.07 14:37:00 - [132] [Ferox, Bad Boy Setup] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Medium Nosferatu II Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 --- Nearly 500 dps, ability to hit to 20km+ with pretty good damage, ~80k ehp, ~150dps passive tank. I really fail to see the point of op, ferox is totally fine especially while it costs 20m in the market. I suggest everyone start stockpiling them immediately for cheap price before clueless people start realizing how good they in fact are.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.07 16:30:00 - [133] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 07/03/2009 16:32:45 Originally by: Kissapasi [Ferox, Bad Boy Setup] Nearly 500 dps, ability to hit to 20km+ with pretty good damage, ~80k ehp, ~150dps passive tank. I really fail to see the point of op, ferox is totally fine especially while it costs 20m in the market. The tank is very impressive but your DPS numbers are misleading. That setup with ALL LVL 5 SKILLS does only 455 DPS (including drones) when using AN MF which gives you an optimal of only 7km To be able to hit at 20km you must use Scorch which drops the DPS to 383. With equivalent skills a (1600mm plated) armor tanked Harbinger fitted with Focused Pulse lasers but only 2 Heat Sinks (i.e using 1 LESS damage mod) does 620 DPS with AN MF (same optimal) and 527 DPS with Scorch (same optimal). The Harbi can use medium drones so this is with Hammerhead IIs instead of Hobgoblin IIs. It has about 60k EHP. Also the setup you suggested will cost a lot more than the 20mill you paid for the ship. T2 mods and rigs will bring the total cost (ship + mods) to around 80mill. If you're going to fit a BC with rigs that cost 15mill each then spending an extra 15mill to buy a Harbinger instead makes more sense to me.
Kissapasi Kissapasi Corporation Paisti Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.07 18:34:00 - [134] Edited by: Kissapasi on 07/03/2009 18:35:54 Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive but your DPS numbers are misleading. That setup with ALL LVL 5 SKILLS does only 455 DPS (including drones) when using AN MF which gives you an optimal of only 7km To be able to hit at 20km you must use Scorch which drops the DPS to 383. With equivalent skills a (1600mm plated) armor tanked Harbinger fitted with Focused Pulse lasers but only 2 Heat Sinks (i.e using 1 LESS damage mod) does 620 DPS with AN MF (same optimal) and 527 DPS with Scorch (same optimal). The Harbi can use medium drones so this is with Hammerhead IIs instead of Hobgoblin IIs. It has about 60k EHP. Also the setup you suggested will cost a lot more than the 20mill you paid for the ship. T2 mods and rigs will bring the total cost (ship + mods) to around 80mill. If you're going to fit a BC with rigs that cost 15mill each then spending an extra 15mill to buy a Harbinger instead makes more sense to me. 5% Medium energy turret hardwiring is dirt cheap, so is 3% turret ROF/DAM. Use them. Harbinger is very powerful especially if you got slave implants, but Ferox has some advatanges over it: 1. Passive recharge, some people might appreciate self regenerating buffer instead of needing to dock and repair every time after combat if no remote repairing is present. 2. Passive recharge also works as a tank, a 150 dps peak on 80k buffer makes Ferox last long time especially if incoming dps is low. 3. If you got skills, you can overheat the invulnerablity field for some extra buffer/tank. 4. It's a Ferox, almost nobody will primary a Ferox. 5. Works even without rigs which will make the price difference even higher. You can also rig it with resistance rigs which are dirt cheap and still maintain a buffer tank of ~70k for a price of a plain Harbinger.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.07 20:40:00 - [135] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 07/03/2009 20:42:33 Originally by: Kissapasi 5% Medium energy turret hardwiring is dirt cheap, so is 3% turret ROF/DAM. Use them. I do, however, you neglected to mention them in your setup. In any case, they would just boost the DPS of both ships so the comparison still stands. In case you missed it, my point was that a tank fitted Harbi easily outdamages a laser Ferox even when fitted with one less damage mod. A gank Harbi would do about double the DPS (but have a very poor tank)! Why use a laser Ferox with it's medicore DPS when you can use a Harbi and actually do some serious damage? Originally by: Kissapasi 1. Passive recharge, some people might appreciate self regenerating buffer instead of needing to dock and repair every time after combat if no remote repairing is present. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive A 1600mm plated Harbi can fit a MAR and Cap Injector so repairing is not an issue until you run out of 800s. Most fights don't last that long :) Originally by: Kissapasi 2. Passive recharge also works as a tank, a 150 dps peak on 80k buffer makes Ferox last long time especially if incoming dps is low. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive If the incoming dps is low (e.g 150dps) then most tanks can handle it anyway. Originally by: Kissapasi 3. If you got skills, you can overheat the invulnerablity field for some extra buffer/tank. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive You can also overheat a MAR. Originally by: Kissapasi 4. It's a Ferox, almost nobody will primary a Ferox. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive Obvious question: what exactly is the point of such an impressive tank if nobody will primary you? Originally by: Kissapasi 5. Works even without rigs which will make the price difference even higher. You can also rig it with resistance rigs which are dirt cheap and still maintain a buffer tank of ~70k for a price of a plain Harbinger. Shield rigs are indeed much cheaper than Armor rigs and the Ferox is cheaper than the Harbi so COST is the most sensible reason to use a Ferox instead but tbh, i'd rather spend more ISK and be more useful to my gang. You can passively shield tank the Harbi too if you really want to but its shield tank is pretty poor so it's a bad idea when solo or in a small gang. IMO the Ferox needs to be a good SNIPER to be worth using in PvP. If it does this well then it doesn't need changing. If it doesn't then maybe it needs a boost.
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2009.03.07 21:07:00 - [136] Edited by: Dibsi Dei on 07/03/2009 21:07:14 Don't compare tier 1 battlecruisers with tier 2.
Graalum Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.07 21:15:00 - [137] Originally by: Kissapasi 4. It's a Ferox, almost nobody will primary a Ferox. since noone shoots feroxes, we should all fly feroxes right? Then no one will get primaried. and then we can live in lollypop land and sing songs.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.07 22:47:00 - [138] Quote: Why use a laser Ferox with it's medicore DPS when you can use a Harbi and actually do some serious damage? Because tier one != tier two. Comparisons between tiers fail; compare the laser Ferox to the Prophecy/Brutix/Cyclone and then come back to this discussion. --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.07 23:13:00 - [139] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Look at the Cruisers. Omen lacks the PG to fit even FMP and a MWD, Maller can fit the MWD with FMP but does zero damage as it's a tank-bonused ship. Prophecy has the same problems as the Maller, then there's the Geddon. Then there's the Absolution, which regularly is flown without a MWD. I don't know about you, but i regularly get an MWD, LSE, and 5 FMP II's on an Omen with room to spare. The maller is not terrible because of its fitting, ditto the Prophecy. The geddon in a pulse fit fits an MWD easily enough as does the Absolution fit an MWD for everything. Quote: As for sniping, my point was that there can be no comparison: Caldari are the only race to receive turret bonuses specifically aimed at sniping Besides the Apoc, and tech 2 Amarr and Minmatar Quote: The point also remains: How many sniper fits do you know that fit a MWD? All of them Quote: It's shifting the goalposts because it entails discussion over the state of Spike M, which is outwith the scope of this topic. No, it doesn't. If you're shooting larger ships you want to be in something that is going to do more damage. Battleships are just fine for shooting cruisers, load up T1 ammo and go to town. Cruiser sized ships are best for shooting frigates since others cannot hit the smaller/faster ships well enough. To do this best they fit tech 1/faction ammo and not tech 2 ammo because the tracking penalty on the tech 2 ammo prohibits the ship from doing its job. Saying "you're using the wrong ammo" does not mean that you have to discuss the state of spike M, you're still simply discussing what the ship's job is and what it does best.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.07 23:27:00 - [140] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Because tier one != tier two. Comparisons between tiers fail; compare the laser Ferox to the Prophecy/Brutix/Cyclone and then come back to this discussion. Lol . Ferox is good because, if you use pulses it has better stats than the other tier 1 bcs? You cant be this stupid...

Shereza	Posted - 2009.03.08 00:47:00 - [141] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Cedric Diggory Because tier one != tier two. Comparisons between tiers fail; compare the laser Ferox to the Prophecy/Brutix/Cyclone and then come back to this discussion. Lol . Ferox is good because, if you use pulses it has better stats than the other tier 1 bcs? You cant be this stupid... I think you missed the point that Diggory was trying to make in that any situation where you compare a tier 1 ship, regardless of setup, to a tier 2 ship with a similar setup the inherent differences between the ship tiers will significantly skew the results. It has nothing to do with whether or not a laser using ferox is good. That aside, let's face it. If a ship can perform in a non-main role in a good to superb fashion, even sometimes to the point of surpassing a ship dedicated to said "non-main role," then I'd say that ship is fairly good. For that matter, given similar loadouts the laser ferox does about as well as the prophecy. From a PvE perspective and given similar loadouts he prophecy has better cap stability, approximately 10% more velocity, and has 20-50% more eHP while maintaining a higher sustained tank while the ferox actually does more rDPS, has a superior maximum tank, and marginally superior agility. With the fact that both ships have the same drone bay size the launcher the ferox can fit allows it to also exceed the prophecy in eDPS as well as rDPS. I can't say how the ferox stacks up to the brutix as a blaster boat or the cyclone as an ugly boat (um, what does the cyclone do in missions?) but if it can pinch hit for a prophecy then that easily says one, or both, of two things. The ferox is a decent to good ship and/or the prophecy seriously sucks. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.08 01:12:00 - [142] It only says : prophecy sux cyclone too , fitting ferox with pulses is stupid, you can shoot for like 1.5 mins, oh comeon that's nothing.
Leyvan Stand Vyritza	Posted - 2009.03.08 01:26:00 - [143] I don't know about the ferox, but looking at how much the different ships are being used, I think that all tier1 BCs needs a slight buff. I have'nt seen a single proph or cyclone the last half year actually, that should tell us something. Brutix? don't know. but probably needs buff Ferox? almost noone uses, needs buff Proph? noone uses it, needs buff Cyclone? noone uses it, needs buff I mean, what looking at how underused the ships are it should be quite obvious they're in need of change. Amarr has 3 BS, how comes people are using ALL 3 of them alot instead of only using the 'baddon? Fittings? Wait oke, Proph has armor bonus so it should be better or AT LEAST at par with the harb in a more tank-focused fitting right? But I'm do remember multiple people posting that the Harb even outdoes it at that. The posters here says "okay they are fine", but how comes they are'nt being used at all?
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.08 01:31:00 - [144] Quote: It only says : prophecy sux cyclone too , fitting ferox with pulses is stupid, you can shoot for like 1.5 mins, oh comeon that's nothing. Or it says the Brutix is overpowered in a specific role, and you haven't yet figured out how to use your Ferox properly? --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
DARTHxFREE Aliastra	Posted - 2009.03.08 01:43:00 - [145] Edited by: DARTHxFREE on 08/03/2009 01:44:00 [Ferox, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Hobgoblin II x5 Don't flt solo 572dps cheap as a chip and serves it's purpose /join Cheeze & Whine Club
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.08 09:42:00 - [146] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Quote: It only says : prophecy sux cyclone too , fitting ferox with pulses is stupid, you can shoot for like 1.5 mins, oh comeon that's nothing. Or it says the Brutix is overpowered in a specific role, and you haven't yet figured out how to use your Ferox properly? No. The brutix is good the other 3 tier 1 bc need boost. And a brutix is much more useable than the ferox even when rail fitted.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.08 13:14:00 - [147] Quote: No. The brutix is good the other 3 tier 1 bc need boost. And a brutix is much more useable than the ferox even when rail fitted. Repeating this over and over like a mantra doesn't make it any more accurate. --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.08 14:12:00 - [148] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Quote: No. The brutix is good the other 3 tier 1 bc need boost. And a brutix is much more useable than the ferox even when rail fitted. Repeating this over and over like a mantra doesn't make it any more accurate. It is you who are repeating that : ferox can hit enemy at 150km so it is fine statement.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.03.08 14:18:00 - [149] Quote: It is you who are repeating that : ferox can hit enemy at 150km so it is fine statement. Am I? I think you have a bit of the old "selective comprehension" going on there... I've put down several different reasons why the Ferox doesn't need special attention. On the other hand, all I've seen you really post is "WAAAH! I can't figure out how to fit a ship that isn't min/maxed!" --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.03.08 14:22:00 - [150] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 08/03/2009 14:21:56 Originally by: Cedric Diggory Quote: It is you who are repeating that : ferox can hit enemy at 150km so it is fine statement. Am I? I think you have a bit of the old "selective comprehension" going on there... I've put down several different reasons why the Ferox doesn't need special attention. On the other hand, all I've seen you really post is "WAAAH! I can't figure out how to fit a ship that isn't min/maxed!" So you say i should fit the ferox like your fit? because you havent wrote anything else about it. And everybody can tell you that setup is a fail. No mwd ,3 rigs ....



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