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How highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them. Manifesto II.

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Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1586	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:48:00 - [391] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: TL;DR No shame in not reading and just posting. This is the EVE-O Forums: General Discussion, after all. It was pointless drivel, not worth reading anyway. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:51:00 - [392] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: James 315 wrote: When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. Quoted for bump and for support. The fight begins today. I don't think he wanted to play EVE. Not that kind of EVE, not that way. But that's the thing about multiplayer games. I used to build big tower blocks when I was a young un. This experience was entirely satisfactory on its own, and would probably not be improved by someone knocking down my tower at a random time(I preferred to do that myself really). I've done the whole "getting emotionally involved in high-risk online worlds" thing before. Sure it provides a lot of emotion, but its not really sustainable. Eventually I realised I was never going to get to be part of the top tier who gets to inflict losses instead of sustaining them without spending thousands of RL $, so I quit.
Jiggle Physics GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 11	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:55:00 - [393] - Quote I can just taste the piteous rage of all these highsec corp posters attempting to sweep this well-argued, rational, logical, and overall high-quality thread under the rug with their barely-concealed fury in each "TL;DR". Give it a read~ you can't wallow in your ignorant and destructive ways forever!
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 487	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:58:00 - [394] - Quote Jiggle Physics wrote: I can just taste the piteous rage of all these highsec corp posters attempting to sweep this well-argued, rational, logical, and overall high-quality thread under the rug with their barely-concealed fury in each "TL;DR". Give it a read~ you can't wallow in your ignorant and destructive ways forever! Don't be silly. If they read it, they might be convicted which would have to be suppressed in order for them to ask CCP for more protection without looking guilty enough to be CONCORDed. This kind of thing, you have to look away. In real life, you'd call it extremist or whatever to make sure as many people as possible do not read it. The opposite of propaganda. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Jiggle Physics GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:03:00 - [395] - Quote But they're so defensive! I can imagine how offended they must be, that someone dares to accuse them of all people of being the real culprits behind the recent troubles in Eve's reputation. They just want to afk mine and RMT in complete invincibility, like one can in practically every other MMO on the market.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 489	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:06:00 - [396] - Quote Takseen wrote: I've done the whole "getting emotionally involved in high-risk online worlds" thing before. Sure it provides a lot of emotion, but its not really sustainable. Eventually I realised I was never going to get to be part of the top tier who gets to inflict losses instead of sustaining them without spending thousands of RL $, so I quit. Yeah. EVE is like that, there's consequences. I hear that, uh, just about every other mmo ever provides the no-losing type of gameplay you appear to be endorsing. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 489	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:08:00 - [397] - Quote Jiggle Physics wrote: But they're so defensive! I can imagine how offended they must be, that someone dares to accuse them of all people of being the real culprits behind the recent troubles in Eve's reputation. They just want to afk mine and RMT in complete invincibility, like one can in practically every other MMO on the market. Well maybe they should have asked CCP to declare anti-miner sentiments on the forums as an exploit. That's not what general discussion was intended for. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Siobhan MacLeary BRG Corp Acquisition Of Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:13:00 - [398] - Quote Wow, that was long. While I do agree that ganking hisec miners is a fun pastime for all, some of your leaps of logic are a tad too far for me to handle. Personally, I believe CCP is working towards making CONCORD unnecessary with the new wardec mechanics and can-flipping resulting in everyone being able to shoot you - there will likely be a proliferation of police corps or something, and there will also be a proliferation of people figuring out exactly which cans are worth flipping, and then doing so as fast as possible. (The previous is all speculation). Seriously, James 315, you make good points. But like your last manifesto (which I read in it's entirety), the first half was well-written and logical. However, once you finished the description of podkilling the Orca pilot, the quality of your rational thought swiftly sped downhill. Yes, the hisec miners have done quite a lot to make hisec living safer - but then, isn't it supposed to be safer than the other areas of New Eden? Hisec is the heart of Empire space, and like any long-established civilization, the desire there is not for the continual discovery available to wormhole dwellers like myself or the push and pull of capsuleer warfare in nullsec. Rather, the desire is for safety, order, and stability. Is that desire, voiced by a presumably vocal minority, strangling EVE? Possibly. However, as long as nullsec, lowsec, and w-space provide an environment for the nonconsensual PVP we all love, making hisec safer, but not completely safe, does not strike me as a threat to EVE itself.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:14:00 - [399] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Takseen wrote: I've done the whole "getting emotionally involved in high-risk online worlds" thing before. Sure it provides a lot of emotion, but its not really sustainable. Eventually I realised I was never going to get to be part of the top tier who gets to inflict losses instead of sustaining them without spending thousands of RL $, so I quit. Yeah. EVE is like that, there's consequences. I hear that, uh, just about every other mmo ever provides the no-losing type of gameplay you appear to be endorsing. Most of them don't stack things so heavily in favour of the aggressor. Or in favour of the pvper over the resource gatherer in pvp combat. That makes Eve more unique, but doesn't lend itself to people wanting to fight back.
Joe Skellington 13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary 57	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:25:00 - [400] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: TL;DR No shame in not reading and just posting. This is the EVE-O Forums: General Discussion, after all. I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. -á-á \|\__/\|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \

Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 60	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:34:00 - [401] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Jiggle Physics wrote: I can just taste the piteous rage of all these highsec corp posters attempting to sweep this well-argued, rational, logical, and overall high-quality thread under the rug with their barely-concealed fury in each "TL;DR". Give it a read~ you can't wallow in your ignorant and destructive ways forever! Don't be silly. If they read it, they might be convicted which would have to be suppressed in order for them to ask CCP for more protection without looking guilty enough to be CONCORDed. This kind of thing, you have to look away. In real life, you'd call it extremist or whatever to make sure as many people as possible do not read it. The opposite of propaganda. The truth here. Those who dont read it are pathetic. Those who disagree with the core concepts are probably idiots.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:34:00 - [402] - Quote Takseen wrote: Most of them don't stack things so heavily in favour of the aggressor. Or in favour of the pvper over the resource gatherer in pvp combat. Ah. So CCP needs to give you more concessions. Gotcha. So, should we just hop to invulnerability? PvP flags would work right? If you flag then you are gankable, otherwise "lack of pvp flag prevents you from locking that target". Using smartbombs and FoF missiles (if the latter can be used anyway) or bombs would of course be an exploit as they don't require targeting before inflicting damage. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:36:00 - [403] - Quote Joe Skellington wrote: I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. It was a really good novel. One of those "can't put it down" reads. I highly recommend to anyone who wants to continue playing EVE. Those who wish to perform the ultimate gank by causing/allowing EVE to die might wish to skip instead to: "Why Non-Consensual PvP is an Exploit: The Miners' Primer" Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Joe Skellington 13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary 57	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:40:00 - [404] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. It was a really good novel. One of those "can't put it down" reads. I highly recommend to anyone who wants to continue playing EVE. Those who wish to perform the ultimate gank by causing/allowing EVE to die might wish to skip instead to: "Why Non-Consensual PvP is an Exploit: The Miners' Primer" I don't want CCP to take out non-consensual PVP, that would make the game a totally different place than what was when I first started playing years ago. I highly doubt CCP would do that, considering it's what sets EVE apart from all the other crap out there. -á-á \|\__/\|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:43:00 - [405] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Takseen wrote: Most of them don't stack things so heavily in favour of the aggressor. Or in favour of the pvper over the resource gatherer in pvp combat. Ah. So CCP needs to give you more concessions. Gotcha. So, should we just hop to invulnerability? PvP flags would work right? If you flag then you are gankable, otherwise "lack of pvp flag prevents you from locking that target". Using smartbombs and FoF missiles (if the latter can be used anyway) or bombs would of course be an exploit as they don't require targeting before inflicting damage. Why are you so obsessed with invulnerability, when there are many other approaches to bringing some balance? I'm sure you're smart enough to think of some on your own.
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:54:00 - [406] - Quote Isn't it odd how all those Null Sec bots get Blue in Null Space. Maybe the bots have learned to send messages to innocent Null Alliances and convince the poor Null Alliance to make them Blue! How sad. Maybe the blatant and idiotic amount of botting for RMT in the Null Sec space should result.. after say 1,000 Bots to Blue.. in the banning of the RMT Alliance. I know, I know. That would ban EVERY Alliance in Null Space. Why yes it would.
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 61	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:54:00 - [407] - Quote Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 99	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:56:00 - [408] - Quote Takseen wrote: Why are you so obsessed with invulnerability, when there are many other approaches to bringing some balance? I'm sure you're smart enough to think of some on your own. The problem is the idea of false equivalency. Hisec miners are always bleating about "balance" when in fact they have been one of the most imbalanced (in their favor) recipient of buffs in eve. Ever. During Ice Interdiction, thousands of barges died. I personally slaughtered over a hundred of them over the course of weeks. Many were untanked, even weeks after we had begun and after watching dozens of their brethern die before their eyes. They believed themselves invulnerable for whatever reason. Some actually started removing their expanded cargoholds and mining upgrades, and installed tanks. They escaped the reach of the solitary ganker. They generally lived. They also consisted of a fraction of a percentage of the mining population--the rest kept repeating their same no-tank fit, as if daring us to kill them again. As if this was just a bad dream, a passing bit of bad luck, and their no-threat world would return presently. Sadly, they (eventually) were proven correct: we moved on to conquer a few nulsec regions and do housekeeping. Of course, we're coming back with a vengeance now... Jayrendo Karr wrote: Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem. What luck, Those already exist!
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 4	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:57:00 - [409] - Quote Image Nalelmir wrote: The key is to make CCP realize how one-sided the game is, currently. If it really is, of course. I, myself, have no way of knowing if it is or not, but the only people who seem to be disagreeing with you are the very people you're calling out against, so maybe there's some validity there. Here's my personal view on the matter: players should be free (well, relatively free... again, nowhere is 100% safe) from PVP if that's what they want. However, it shouldn't also be one of the absolute best ways to make ISK in the game. Risk and reward should counterbalance. Doing something, ANYTHING, somewhere that has a higher chance of getting you killed should always be more rewarding than doing the same thing somewhere with a lower risk factor. That is what seems to be unbalanced here. It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly. Finally someone (new I might add! - wow! ) who gets it. I'm re-posting a bit of my older post and clarifying it/re-writing it as it's buried back on page 8 and really is the crux of the problem at hand: **** So what is the solution? I've been mulling this over for years in the back of my head as I've see the cancer grow. Something is dreadfully wrong with EVE and yet it goes beyond miners and all of that. It's the idea that you can get something for no risk. It used to not be like this. Back in 2006 or so, there were no player owned structures in 0.0. This meant that all 0.0 alliances had to maintain a presence in low sec to do major shopping and manufacturing and so on, as short of logging at a tower, there was no place to actually "live" in 0.0.(aside from a very very few NPC stations) It resulted in there being a 50/30/20 split in eve in H/L/0. Players interacted well and the game scaled well. 0 was like a giant version of WH space, just with local and no need to really scan that much. Then CCP made the biggst mistake of its life - it allowed players to own 0.0 space and set up permanent homes (mostly as a gimmie to BoB players to allow themselves to have an easier time cementing their hold on 0.0 like the bastards that they were) What has happened is that 0.0 pilots can live full-time in 0.0 nd high sec can live there now as well. The game has split into two factions. One which is mostly (but thankfully not all!) older players and one which is mostly new players who literally have no concept at all that EVE is supposed to operate like it does. t\Their ONLY other experience with MMOGs are games that are split between safe and PVP servers that are kept 1000000% separate at all times. So they demand this from CCP because there's no giant "this game is PVP at all times" on the box when they buy it. And CCP gives in to their demands most of the time. NOTE - there should be quite literally a "This game is set up so that you can potentially be killed at any moment. Please keep this in mind when you play" as the first screen a new player sees. And they have to actually check OK to make it go away. This problem affects high sec AND low sec. Both are entirely too passive and make isk too easily. In essence, all of the shiny objects in eve are easy to grasp and there's little risk. No need to go outside of either area. This causes the cancer - it's a stagnation where you have two equally dysfunctional communities side by side by never really interacting. Because you now have two entirely different player bases on the same game (and with Dust, a third!). What needs to happen is obvious. The best money and missions and rewards in eve need to be squarely in low sec where they force the two player bases to interact again like they once did. Do it not with penalties but with real incentives - and let the players work it out, sandbox-style. There has to be risk for the rewards. It has to be at least a little bit dangerous to get rich. This would force high and 0.0 corps to fight over the resources in low and entice miners to low as it's just that ONE jump away... Pirates and bounty hunters would also get in on the action. Most of EVE would stay the same in high and low, and a good life could be had for either group of players. But the stagnation would be gone as you'd have to work and take risks to do more than idle through the month. Venting your rage at high sec newbies who literally don't physically grasp the concept of high sec PVP and think it's griefing and not a basic mechanic of the game itself simply won't do anything at all. We need to get CCP to change the risk/reward structure of the game to make it so that doing anything more than eeking out a miserable existence anywhere requires you to take real risks. And, it would also help to balance the economy a bit more. I really suggest that everyone here watches the video of the fanfest about the EVE economy. It makes all of this painfully clear, and the direction EVE is falling towards unless we get CCP to change things.
Alundil The Unnamed. 148	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:57:00 - [410] - Quote Marianne Youngblood wrote: I enjoyed this, personally. I also like the Ishtar fitting. I will be trying this out. As did I.

Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:59:00 - [411] - Quote And for the record, gank-morons who are to lazy to get ISK pay for my accounts by selling PLEX. I say keep those morons happy. Give them more tools to Gank. Ganky gank gank. That doesn't stop the OP from being a Null Bear blatantly arguing for his Null Alliances. Yeah, yeah, Null Alliances need to be the only people who can make any ISK at all so we all have to buy RMT from them to play. Yeah yeah no. Summarily removing the entire CSM and permabanning them and then permabanning every officer in every Null Corp over 500 people would be GREAT for the game. And stop their real life people from resubscribing. That would be awesome.
Ban Bindy Bindy Brothers Pottery Association 113	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:00:00 - [412] - Quote We're right because we made a big fat bunch of posts about how wrong you are. We're right because when you say we're wrong we call you names. We're right because we post on the thread over and over again to say we are right. We're right because everybody should play the same way we do. We're right because if you say anything we go laalalalalala and stick our fingers in our ears. We're right because, just because. A couple more weeks and the last of my accounts winds down and I am out of this game. I loved it, but when I read a thread like this one, I know I'll be better off with Eve out of my head for good. I never minded the real pvp, even the various nonconsensual kinds. It's the self-righteousness of it that I hate. So glad I paid a visit today to see how the Jitaburn was going. Confirms that after three years I've burned out on the cold dark marshmallowness of Eve.
Fracture Antollare The Scope Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:02:00 - [413] - Quote Kale Eledar wrote: Your post is comprehensive, but it has several problems; most notably: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html <---It's in the title. You basically state (and assume) that miners ruin the game from the start before you even begin your analysis. and http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html <-----"miners want x but do it because of y, therefore their desire for x is invalid" See also: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html <----- see OP post title http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-spite.html <---"carebear scum" "chickens" etc. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-fear.html <------ ":ruining your game, ccp hates pvpers, eve turning into wow etc" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html <-----"used to be this way" ergo "better" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html <----- "either get rid of miners/stop them or eve fails" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html <--used to discredit miners' arguments http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html <----used to discredit high profile industrial player's opinions http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html <---- "if ccp keeps supporting the miner lifestyle, eve will become WoW" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html <---do you enjoy mining? do you like mining? or are you prejudiced towards miners due to botters? are all pvpers the same too? http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/division.html <-related in this instance http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html <-----"eve is a pvp game, miners are avoiding the proper way to play eve" (this is the most common argument against indy I seem to see). "eve is a pvp game because it has pvp." Compelling. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/spotlight.html <----related to botters http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html <--- used to misrepresent miner views of pvpers and other playstyles http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ignoring-a-common-cause.html <-----miners causing inflation and nothing else; ignores the complex relatiionships of eve http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html <----eve is far more complex than a----->b, see above http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html &l...
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:11:00 - [414] - Quote Jessie-A Tassik wrote: Summarily removing the entire CSM and permabanning them and then permabanning every officer in every Null Corp over 500 people would be GREAT for the game. And stop their real life people from resubscribing. That would be awesome. Go for it. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:15:00 - [415] - Quote Fuujin wrote: Jayrendo Karr wrote: Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem. What luck, Those already exist! It doesn't exist in equilibrium, as they always deviate into a higher yield, lower tank exhumer. It depends on how they discount the possibility of losing the exhumer vs what it could make in that time. And seems they either underestimate the one, overestimate the other, OR they're accurate enough. But whining always decreases the first, and it just needs forums posting, which you can do while mining. The question is why not whine for more protection? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:17:00 - [416] - Quote Remember, people, that CCP is a corporation and is in business to make money. PERIOD. No, really. End of discussion about CCP's goals. We cannot get them to fundamentally change the game at this point, so re-balancing the economic engine and risk/reward structure is the only alternative. The newbies who have never seen a game liek this in their life can live in high. but they will be nearly destitute if they do so. And so will those who do nothing in 0.0 Ship stuff, do PI, go to WH space, go to low, build stuff to sell, do missions, do incursions, ... do something except idle. BTW, here's one of the most brilliant things I heard in chat today: - A potential help against AFK miners and bots might be to have rats spawn in high sec belts every 4-5 minutes. The idea being that they either need to have drones and cycle them manually all the time or that it interrupts their mining as their bots warp them out of the belt.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 99	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:21:00 - [417] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Fuujin wrote: Jayrendo Karr wrote: Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem. What luck, Those already exist! It doesn't exist in equilibrium, as they always deviate into a higher yield, lower tank exhumer. It depends on how they discount the possibility of losing the exhumer vs what it could make in that time. And seems they either underestimate the one, overestimate the other, OR they're accurate enough. But whining always decreases the first, and it just needs forums posting, which you can do while mining. The question is why not whine for more protection? True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:23:00 - [418] - Quote Fuujin wrote: True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place. They probably view a tanky exhumer as a gyrostab Erebus or a lazer raven. When they have mining groups and everyone's all about their m3/min or isk per hour, you can just imagine~ What, you tanked your hulk? We'll never get gan- Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Hench Tenet The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 8	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:32:00 - [419] - Quote Fantastically written, my friend. I can't agree more. I could not comment without an offering, so I present a recent carebear mail. out of many. https://kb.pleaseignore.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=422756 The aforementioned carebear was not even aware of his death as much as 20 minutes later.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 662	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:33:00 - [420] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Fuujin wrote: True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place. They probably view a tanky exhumer as a gyrostab Erebus or a lazer raven. When they have mining groups and everyone's all about their m3/min or isk per hour, you can just imagine~ What, you tanked your hulk? We'll never get gan- 32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY. If it's a Mack, then forget surviving anyway. This is why hi sec should not exist. Only defense is offense and about pre-killing those who come in. The tank poasts are just drivel made to instill a false sense of security. No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of. This is why when I mined it was in low sec, no morons could come in without getting busted. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel



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