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James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:26:00 - [1] - Quote By the time you finish reading this Manifesto II, you will understand why the highsec miners--the ones who don't bot--are the biggest problem facing EVE today. You will learn about the damage they have already caused and gotten away with, you will learn how they almost shut down EVE, and you will learn what the miners are not-so-secretly doing right now to ruin your game--unless we stop them before it's too late. I'll explain what the carebears are trying to do to highsec. For those of you who live in nullsec and think these issues don't matter to you, read on, because I'll also explain how the highsec miners are destroying nullsec. Time is of the essence, so let's dive right in, shall we? Given forum readers' complaints about the length of my previous manifesto, I opted to keep it short and sweet this time. My motto is that you should never use 20,000 words when 15,000 will do. Nevertheless, as this post will be the longest in the history of the EVE forums, I decided to provide some headings and a table of contents to help keep things organized. THE ACCUSATION THE CAREBEARS KILLED NULLSEC PVP THE CAREBEARS ALMOST SHUT DOWN EVE COMPLETELY THE ENDLESS HISTORY OF NERF DEMANDS THE END OF ALL DANGER IN HIGHSEC THE CULTURE OF THE NEW CAREBEAR LESSONS FROM AN ORCA HUNT THE CONFLICT OF VISIONS HOW WE CAN STOP THE CAREBEARS A CALL TO ACTION THE ACCUSATION Several months ago, I wrote a brief manifesto outlining for the carebears why so many people wish them harm and launch suicide attacks against them. I described how highsec mining was rife with bots, and that even the human miners aspired to become as much like bots as possible. Miners weren't interested in playing EVE; they just wanted to make a bunch of isk while AFK. At the same time, they were sheltering the botters and legitimizing bot behavior. When I wrote the original manifesto, I believed that the bots were the most disgraceful thing in EVE, and that the human miners merely harbored them. But I have come to understand that I was wrong. In fact, it is the bots who are being used to deflect attention away from the real threat to EVE, a threat posed by the human miners in highsec. The bots, while doubtless a hideous feature in EVE, are being dealt with by CCP. Everyone hates the bots, and they get periodically permabanned en masse. Meanwhile, they silently go about their work and do little to disturb the fabric of EVE society as a whole, piling up their ore and ice until they get banned. By contrast, the human miners are anything but mute. They are constantly in communication with CCP, begging the Devs to nerf PvP in highsec. They are not content to play the game on Easy Mode. They want to eliminate all forms of violence whatsoever from highsec. What makes the miners so dangerous is that while the bots are being actively hunted and terminated by CCP, these whiny carebears wield tremendous power over the future of EVE's game mechanics. Here's the other part of the problem: When I say that the carebears want to remove PvP from highsec, most people read that and think I really mean "the carebears want to limit the PvP in highsec." Most EVE players assume that the carebears simply want to nerf it a little, to make it more difficult to gank them. Real EVE players know that PvP is the very essence of EVE, and that there is no such thing as safe space in the game. They know that a total removal of non-consensual PvP from any area of the game would be anathema, going against the fundamental principles upon which EVE operates and attracts its players. So when I criticize the carebears for attempting to get rid of PvP, these good-natured readers think it's hyperbole, and that the carebears are only trying to rebalance the playing field a little more in their favor. But no. That's not what I'm saying. Not even close. Let me be clear. I am accusing the carebears of attempting to completely eliminate all PvP from highsec. I am saying that what the carebears actually intend to do is make their mining ships completely invincible in highsec. At the same time, they are also lobbying CCP to drain resources from nullsec and redistribute it to highsec, where it will be completely safe. If successful, the carebears would convert EVE from a game of risk and consequential PvP--the only one like it--into a game of carebears PvE'ing their way to wealth, all while AFK. In doing so, they would also be killing EVE, for it would not long survive in such a state. I realize these are serious charges. I am essentially accusing the carebears of an attempt to kill EVE. There can be only one penalty for such a crime: The death of highsec mining, with the execution to be carried out by the EVE populace at large. Serious charges require serious evidence, I know. That is why I am writing this Manifesto II. I am going to prove that the carebears are guilty. And once the EVE playerbase is convinced of the miners' guilt--convinced that the miners are actively working to destroy everything the EVE players have built--there will be war. * * * (Proceed to section 2.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:26:00 - [2] - Quote THE CAREBEARS KILLED NULLSEC PVP If the carebear dream of a safe highsec is allowed to take hold, the result will be catastrophic. Carebears ask all the time why people hate them so much. There are many reasons why people feel cause to hate them, but I would add one more to the list: Self-preservation. EVE will not survive in its current form--or any form--should the carebears be allowed to continue. The carebears always defend their point of view by saying EVE is a sandbox. According to them, it's not a PvP game, but rather, a game in which people can do whatever they want, including mine in peace. At the very same time, these carebears are asking CCP to ban the way you choose to play the game. Ironic, no? I suppose "hypocrisy" would be a better word. But the carebear ideology and the culture of EVE cannot coexist. There is no "sandbox" when one group is trying to ban the activities of the other group. You might say the carebears are like a kid in the sandbox whose chosen activity is pouring all of the sand out of the box. He claims it's a matter of freedom, but at the end of the day you're left with an empty box, and everyone leaves. That's precisely where we're headed. Some of you may think that I'm being too pessimistic. I know the idea: People always say EVE is going to die, but it never has, and anyone who predicts catastrophe is just another Chicken Little shouting "The sky is falling!" Others agree that there is danger highsec PvP could be banned, but nullsec will be fine. I'd like to address both of these criticisms, and I'll do it with evidence. Not only are the carebears capable of doing damage to our game, they've already done it--and escaped the blame. The carebears have already, to a large extent, wiped out PvP from nullsec. At first blush, that sounds like an outrageous claim. But hear me out, particularly if you've only been playing EVE for the last couple of years. You see, years ago, before many of you came to EVE, PvP thrived in nullsec. PvP took a different form back then; it wasn't the big fleet structure-shooting you're accustomed to seeing today. Once upon a time, people mined in nullsec belts. Nullsec alliances would organize mining ops, complete with scouts and defense ships to protect the hordes of miners and haulers. Enemy alliances and nullsec pirates would attempt to disrupt these operations with all manner of ingenious tactics. Sometimes smaller groups of miners would attempt to "ninja mine" in hostile or unclaimed territory; sometimes solo guerilla fighters would raid a target of opportunity. The PvP involved had a tendency to start small, with perhaps as few as one or two miners under attack. Reinforcements would be called in. The pirates might flee in the face of resistance, or they might be baiting a trap, inviting more targets. If the attackers had reinforcements of their own, a defending alliance would sound the trumpets and put together a defense fleet to chase them off. In short, there were many different kinds of PvP back then: Solo PvP, small-gang PvP, medium-gang PvP, and proper fleet ops. All of this existed because of the nullsec miners. They formed the base of the food chain. Because they had to expose themselves to risk to get the reward (valuable ore), the miners created targets for PvP'ers to hunt--and these hunters became the hunted in turn. Don't get me wrong. I know PvP still exists in nullsec. But all too often, the only possibilities for fights in nullsec come in the form of massive, well-organized, drawn-out fleet engagements. These fleet battles can only be prompted through a series of even more drawn-out structure shoots, the kind that make participants feel more like miners than PvP'ers. And if the enemy are in too weak a position to fight off the enemy blob with their own blob, or if they lack the guts, then no action occurs. Hours wasted for hundreds of participants. At this point I want to mention the Red vs. Blue organization that exists in highsec for people who want casual PvP. I respect the fact that they want PvP, and I respect their willingness to create something for themselves. That's EVE. But make no mistake about it--Red vs. Blue is also a symptom of a major problem in EVE. Red vs. Blue exists because casual, smaller-scale PvP is so scarce that people have to fabricate voluntary scenarios for it. I'm writing this because I want everyone to know that things weren't always this way. All kinds of PvP existed once, and most of it is completely gone. Many old-timers know that PvP as it once was is dead, but what they don't realize is why. Who killed nullsec PvP? The highsec miners. Allow me to elaborate. * * * (Proceed to section 3.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:27:00 - [3] - Quote The reason PvP largely went extinct in nullsec is that the nullsec miner went extinct. The nullsec miner went extinct because it no longer made economic sense to mine there. It's just a standard risk vs. reward calculation. Nullsec ore is more valuable than highsec ore, but not by a big enough margin. When you consider the added risk of nullsec, not to mention the logistical needs, there's no reason why a miner shouldn't just sit in the safety of highsec and mine his heart out. So that's exactly what the carebears do. Why do I blame the carebears for obeying economic reality? Because they created it for themselves. The carebears are at the root of an even greater problem plaguing EVE at the moment. You want to know why the risk/reward calculus is so out of whack? The carebears demand it. For years, they have continually lobbied CCP to transfer wealth from nullsec to highsec. If it weren't for the influence of the carebears, nullsec ore would be a hundred times more valuable than highsec ore. But if CCP tries to fix that, the carebears are in an uproar. They insist they would rather quit the game than play a properly-balanced version of it. Fearing the loss of subscriptions, CCP bends to their will. This has been going on for a very long time. As one ganker put it, the reason why he attacks the highsec miners is that highsec is where the real wealth in EVE is. Right or wrong, it's certainly where the miners are. By all accounts, those highsec miners should be out in nullsec, where they can be attacked and defended by PvP'ers. Because they're hiding away in highsec, it was only a matter of time before people started taking a greater interest in killing highsec miners. In other words, miner, if you won't come to nullsec, nullsec will come to you. In an attempt to correct this problem and resuscitate nullsec mining, The Mittani lobbied for the removal of alloy drops from the drone regions, thereby buffing nullsec ore. But will the highsec miners--the ones who spend all day begging for buffs to exhumers--relocate to nullsec as they should, or will they initiate a new series of demands for valuable ore to be placed in highsec? I guess we'll find out. Before today, you may have been a nullsec player who ignored what was going on in highsec. Believe me, I get it. When I lived in nullsec, nothing made me lose interest faster than people talking about highsec. To my eyes, the carebears were basically scenery for the belts, like NPCs: If you were curious, you could stop by and have at look at them, but otherwise they may as well not exist. As it's become increasingly clear, however, everything in EVE is connected. What happens in highsec influences nullsec. This is an ongoing process, and there are no signs that it will end. As the carebears continue to suck wealth into highsec, and as they continue to fortify highsec with nerfs to non-consensual PvP, it's no mystery where things are headed. Unless something is done to reverse the trend, EVE will, in fact, become a PvE game. We know this is true because to a large extent, it already happened. Miners migrated from nullsec to highsec, and the PvP that once existed there disappeared. If it's already been happening, what's to stop it from continuing? It's an inconvenient truth, but as the carebear population continues to grow, the transition from PvP to PvE becomes all the more likely, since greater numbers exert greater influence. As bleak a picture as I've just presented, it gets a whole lot worse. Let's consider what happens if and when the carebears get what they want. * * * (Proceed to section 4.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:27:00 - [4] - Quote THE CAREBEARS ALMOST SHUT DOWN EVE COMPLETELY We know the carebears want to fundamentally transform EVE from a PvP game into a PvE game. Each day, they lobby CCP to transfer all of the galaxy's wealth into highsec, and they beg CCP to remove all PvP from highsec. Supposing the carebears succeed, what happens next? EVE just becomes a really boring game, right? I don't think so. In my opinion, EVE wouldn't survive the transition. Most likely, CCP would drop support for the game (i.e. the servers get shut down and never go back up), or CCP would go out of business entirely with the same result. Why do I say this? Again, anyone can speculate about what the future holds. I'm merely going on the evidence. As with other topics I've discussed in this Manifesto II, we do have some historical background to shed light. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when the carebears did get almost everything they wanted. It was a time when CCP all but abandoned PvP and devoted every bit of their energy to pleasing the carebears. I am speaking, of course, about the infamous Incarna expansion, and the lead-up to it. At a certain point, CCP became obsessed with the idea that because most of EVE's population resided in highsec, their resources were best spent developing highsec and giving carebears what they wanted. The nullsec population, though noisy, was small enough to ignore. It was the darkest time in EVE's history. So few server resources were devoted to maintaining nullsec systems that even a handful of ships fighting in a nullsec system would crash the node. Nullsec was paralyzed so the AFK carebears and bots in highsec could have a smoother game. Meanwhile, CCP radically restructured its staff to eliminate almost all further development of EVE. As they confirmed in a press release, only a few employees still worked on the "flying in spaceships" aspect of EVE (i.e. EVE), and pretty much everybody else was tasked with "walking in stations" (i.e. Incarna, or "not EVE"). Oh yeah, and they were going to sell monocles. It was the triumph of the carebear. By catering solely to the highsec crowd, CCP thought their subscriptions and profits would skyrocket. EVE would become the next WoW, a cash cow beyond their wildest dreams. By transitioning EVE away from that whole PvP thing, they would finally find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Things didn't quite go according to plan. EVE took a nosedive. By undercutting the essential purpose of EVE, CCP had set themselves up for a disaster of epic proportions. EVE lost subscriptions by the tens of thousands, and CCP started heading down the road toward bankruptcy. The very existence of EVE was at stake, and if things didn't change soon, the game would enter an eternal downtime. It wasn't the first time EVE had been in crisis. Years earlier, EVE was thrown into chaos by revelations that CCP employees were cheating on behalf of the Band of Brothers alliance. As BoB was in the process of taking over all nullsec and imposing its elitist, stultifying vision on the rest of the galaxy, it was a pretty big deal. But BoB didn't count on the Goons. The Goons led a coalition to victory against BoB, and EVE was saved. Now, with Incarna bringing EVE to the verge of total collapse, the Goons were called upon once more to save the game from being desecrated by a misguided segment of the community. The Mittani and the Goons rallied the EVE playerbase and forced CCP to see the light. At first, CCP was reluctant to come to terms with how badly they had misjudged the nature of EVE. But eventually, faced with a downward spiral in subscriptions and profits, they had no other choice. To continue to follow the path of the carebear was financial suicide. CCP wisely took The Mittani's counsel and, with his help, gently backed away from the precipice. CCP reversed course, admitted its mistakes, and asked for the EVE community's forgiveness. Doomsday was averted. If CCP had not changed course, it would have been only a matter of time before the servers went dark. If the carebears had gotten what they wanted, everything ever built in EVE would have been wiped from existence forever. Let me be clear. When EVE goes offline, that's the end of it. No more ships, no more stations, no more wealth, no more alliances, no more anything. And carebears, that means nobody left to RMT your ill-gotten isk. We know what a future of carebearism and PvE holds for us. With Incarna, EVE gazed into the abyss. Let us never return to that. The Mittani and the Goons saved EVE, but only for a time. The carebears who pushed for Incarna are still among us, and they are still demanding an end to PvP. Unlike BoB, the cancer of carebearism was not removed; it only went into remission. The threat remains. * * * (Proceed to section 5.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:28:00 - [5] - Quote THE ENDLESS HISTORY OF NERF DEMANDS Do the carebears really wield enough influence to succeed in their quest to remove PvP from EVE? The past, they say, is prologue. For many years now, the carebears have demanded that CCP nerf all forms of PvP in highsec, whether it be suicide ganking, wardecs, corp infiltration, can-flipping, or anything else that could pose a threat to the miners. Their whining would be nothing more than an annoyance, were it not for the fact that CCP has often granted their wishes. Before I continue, I would like to present a short list of just some of the nerfs with which CCP has indulged the carebears over the last few years. This list is not meant to be all-inclusive by any means; it's only the nerfs I can recall off the top of my head, without doing any research. Before the carebears start whining about the next nerf they want, I'd like them to review the list of what they've already been given and answer, "Why weren't these nerfs enough?" In multiple instances, CCP has sped up CONCORD response time, giving suicide gankers less time to kill their targets and requiring them to use more and more firepower. In response to the infamous jihadswarm attacks on miners, CCP buffed CONCORD and greatly increased the penalties to security status for gankers. This was intended to force gankers to either spend a lot more time grinding security status, or quit the practice. On at least one occasion, CCP granted an across-the-board buff to hitpoints on all ships, for the purpose of "increasing the length of fights." This measure did little to affect ordinary combat but increased the difficulty of killing miners before CONCORD's arrival. After the Privateers wardec'd everything in sight, CCP released a series of nerfs which they openly admitted were aimed at putting the Privateers out of business. They set an arbitrary 3-wardec limit for corporations and exponentially increased the cost of running multiple wardecs at the alliance level. When carebears still had to deal with wardecs, CCP reversed a longstanding exploit ruling on dissolving corps. In a matter of minutes, carebears can simply dissolve and reform the exact same corp with the exact same members--even keeping their old name and corp ticker--solely for the purpose of evading wardecs. Still not satisfied with wardec nerfs, CCP endorsed a plan by miners to use so-called "dec shield alliances." This rendered miner-owned POSes completely invulnerable. In an attempt to curb can-flipping and other "griefer" tricks, CCP has written and re-written rules on aggression flags for can-flipping, remote-repping, fleets, etc. countless times. In yet another "nerf to end all nerfs," CCP removed insurance payouts for CONCORDed ships, thereby tripling ship costs for suicide gankers--and that after a previous insurance nerf had already reduced payouts on all ships. After gankers adapted to the insurance nerf by using more agile ships to launch multiple strikes before being CONCORDed, CCP quickly moved to declare this "boomerang" tactic a bannable exploit and added instant response warp-jammers. My point is not simply that there have been a lot of nerfs to highsec PvP. It's that even after all this, the next item on the agenda is yet another round of nerfs. It's the "one more nerf" syndrome. I was there for the wardec nerf on the Privateers. Every carebear was trumpeting this as their salvation. It was the last word on wardecs, they said. But what happened? Over the years, more nerfs to wardecs. Coming down the pike for the next big expansion? They're currently working on another set of major nerfs to wardecs--with the aid and advice of the very same carebears who do nothing but evade wardecs. Pirates have been stealing from cargo containers forever, and you would think there's no way to break any new ground on the topic. But somehow a new nerf to can-flipping made it to the top of the list of "features" being planned for the next expansion. How? Who asked for that? And the insurance nerf, of course. Just a few months ago, the miners were telling everyone who would listen that it was the end of suicide ganking. I heard it directly from miners in local who gloated about the new present they were being given. I mocked the miners' arrogance in the first manifesto for that very reason. They predicted total safety for carebears, and I predicted more ganking. I was right. But what happened next? Because gankings still occurred, carebears begged CCP for "one more nerf," to eliminate boomerang gankers. Were the highsec miners satisfied with the elimination of boomerang gankers? No. Within days after boomeranging was declared an exploit, the carebears were back at it, begging for hitpoint buffs to their exhumers. Is it over? Not by a long shot. The carebears got their "one more nerf" many times over, but you can bet another series of nerfs to suicide gankings is in the works, even as we speak. Judging by this pattern, what can we predict for the future? My guess is, the nerfs will continue to pile up...until the carebears get what they really want. * * * (Proceed to section 6.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:28:00 - [6] - Quote THE END OF ALL DANGER IN HIGHSEC Let's stop for a moment and think this over logically. At what point has highsec PvP been nerfed enough? The carebears claim they're only asking for things to be properly "balanced," but how do we know things aren't already balanced? Maybe the way to balance things is to give a buff to suicide ganking. To put it another way, how is CCP supposed to determine that it's time to tell the carebears "Sorry pal, I think you've had enough"? We know it's not based on frequency, because the carebears have been granted dozens of nerfs. And we know it's not based on some kind of back-and-forth, because the PvP'ers never get buffs to balance out the nerfs (more on that later). We know it's not even based on precedent, as CCP has been willing to overturn rules that have been established for years. It seems to me that there is only one remaining principle, or comparison point, that guides the decision-making process: Keep nerfing until it's no longer possible to kill a miner in highsec. Because until then, the carebears will keep demanding nerfs, and judging by the only evidence we have--history--CCP will continue to grant them. Now, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe CCP does have some kind of defined limit in mind at which they no longer give in to the nerf demands. If so, they've done a good job concealing it. But let's suppose CCP intends to keep giving the carebears everything they ask. Let's imagine CCP actually wants to remove violence from highsec, and has a plan to transition EVE from a PvP game to a PvE game. What would that look like? It will happen this way: First, CCP becomes fixated on the idea that if they can make highsec totally safe, they'll pull in tons of new players and make lots of money with a more mainstream, WoW-like game. But having seen the backlash from earlier attempts to carebearize the game, they decide that the transition needs to be handled gradually. They'll need to do a little "crowd control" to avoid unduly ruffling the feathers of the playerbase. To implement the new nerfs in a manner that doesn't enrage the remaining PvP'ers, CCP begins introducing changes to the game in pairs. Each nerf to highsec PvP comes along with a buff, to balance things out and placate the PvP'ers. Or so it appears. In reality, the supposed buff to PvP isn't enough to cancel out the effect of the nerf, thus constituting a "net" nerf. Later, as the PvP'ers come up with ways of using the change to their advantage, CCP pulls the rug out from under them by classifying such methods "unintended exploits." The buff is rendered useless, while the nerf remains effective. (If the carebears manage to find ways of using the nerf to an even greater advantage to themselves, CCP allows it, rather than calling that an exploit.) So that's the way it would happen, in a hypothetical, worst-case scenario where CCP consciously attempts to change highsec into a 100% safe zone. Come to think of it...some of what I just described sounds a little familiar, doesn't it? Let's consider the big insurance nerf from the most recent expansion. On the one hand, the carebears told us that it was all the nerf they needed to put those villainous suicide gankers out of business--until a couple months later when those same carebears told us they were in desperate need of new nerfs to suicide ganking. On the other hand, the insurance nerf did come along with a supposed buff to suicide ganking, in the form of improved hybrids, destroyers, and, most of all, tier-3 battlecruisers that almost seemed tailor-made for ganking. The inclusion of the latter items helped keep the lid on the ganking community. Was it really a balance? No. Despite being cheaper to purchase, the new battlecruisers, for example, were more expensive to replace without insurance than battleships had been with insurance. But gankers, unlike carebears, have a tendency to adapt and innovate. They changed their tactics, relying more on cheaper hulls and expensive fittings, as the fittings have a 50% chance of being dropped and recovered. Meanwhile, gankers were hard at work, experimenting with ways of making the new ships more effective than the old ones. This led to the creation of the "boomerang" tactic, wherein a ganker strikes and warps away just before CONCORD arrives, then warps back for one more strike (or in the case of multiple targets in separate locations, multiple strikes). I want to be clear about something: It had never been an exploit to warp away before CONCORD arrived, as long as the ganker's ship was eventually killed by CONCORD. Long ago, when CONCORD was first introduced, some individuals had created ways of completely avoiding death by having their ships in warp during the entire 15-minute aggression timer. That was immediately classified as an exploit by CCP. But the act of warping away was always permitted--as long as CONCORD got its man. But many years later, that rule became inconvenient for the carebears, so naturally it had to change. * * * (Proceed to section 7.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:29:00 - [7] - Quote Actually, the idea of warping away after a suicide gank had been around for a long time. Occasionally a ganker might warp out to a safe spot to be killed, in the hopes of keeping his wreck from being looted by nearby miners. However, the tactic became far more valuable with the introduction of the smaller ganking ships, as their agility enabled them to align for warp more quickly. Still, these enterprising gankers had to refine the technique, discover which rigs/modules were best for the tactic--and they had to execute the technique with perfect timing to pull it off. It was a classic case of skilled, creative players in the EVE sandbox doing what they do best. They had been handed a lemon with the insurance nerf, but they were determined to make the best of things. They adapted and overcame. It's the way EVE is supposed to work. The carebears, too, could have innovated. It would have been a simple matter to equip mining ships with a warp disruptor to prevent the boomerang warp-outs. Perhaps the gankers would have figured out some way to adapt again, but I suppose we'll never know, because that's not what the carebears did. Instead, the carebears figured out something new was happening, so they shrieked at CCP to save them. Because that's what carebears do. At that point, CCP had a choice. They could have declined to implement another nerf. They could have advised the carebears to find some way of dealing with their new problem. They could have reminded the carebears that only a couple months earlier they had given them a big Christmas present with the insurance nerf. CCP could and should have done any of those things. Instead, CCP decided to overturn a longstanding rule--almost as old as CONCORD itself--and announced that warping away before CONCORD arrives is an exploit no matter what. I don't want to get too focused on this particular nerf, but there are a few things about the way CCP handled this situation that bear mentioning, because they are so revealing of the thought process at work. First is the speed with which CCP took action. Once they learned what was happening, CCP was practically tripping over itself to put a stop to the boomerang. Not only did they immediately declare it an exploit, they had a brand-new "fix" for it in a patch within a couple days. The anti-boomerang patch has to be in some kind of record book for CCP's fastest response time ever. By way of comparison, it took them most of a decade to add implants to pod killmails, and that's something a lot of people had been asking about for a very, very long time. The final thing I want to point out about the way the boomerang situation was handled is this: CCP called the tactic an outright exploit. They didn't admit that they were changing the rules or implementing a new nerf. Instead, they behaved as though warping out before CONCORD's arrival had always been against the rules. In doing so, they cast the people who developed and used the tactic in a negative light--one normally reserved for cheaters (e.g., Band of Brothers). Suicide gankers oppose the carebears, but they love EVE. CCP was wrong to treat them this way. Why did the situation unfold in this manner? Classifying the boomerang tactic as an exploit enabled them to implement a new nerf without needing to pair it with a new buff. Clearly, the expansion with the insurance nerf and new ships was intended to have the net effect of limiting suicide ganking. When the opposite occurred, it rankled the powers that be. That's why CCP was so quick to put an end to the boomerang tactic. While it's possible that some in CCP could have been under the mistaken impression that boomeranging was against preexisting rules, it's unlikely: The speed with which they acted and designed the "fix" would have involved enough personnel to ensure somebody involved understood the situation. More probably, CCP was frustrated by the fact that their nerfs did not have the desired effect, and were determined to clean up the mess. The trouble here is that too often, CCP acts as though highsec violence is a problem that they need to solve. PvP is not a problem with the game, it is the game. If you are still unconvinced of the bias against PvP, consider the following thought experiment: Do you think CCP will ever buff suicide ganking? And I don't mean one of those "buffs" that gets balanced with a nerf, or gets declared an exploit later. I'm talking about an honest-to-goodness, no-nonsense buff. For instance, an expansion in which CONCORD's response time gets slowed down, or the ganker's security status loss is reduced, all without any nerf counterweight. Do you think it will happen? If not, why not? If ganking has been nerfed a dozen times, why isn't it due for a buff--just like anything else that has been nerfed so many times? (That's a hypothetical, since nothing else has been nerfed nearly as often.) * * * (Proceed to section 8.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:29:00 - [8] - Quote As I was saying earlier, if CCP is planning to gradually phase out all violence from highsec, they'll do it in a way that pairs genuine nerfs with faux buffs. That brings us to the impending wardec changes. Coming soon is the first big overhaul to the wardec system since five years ago, when CCP publicly announced they were going to a stop to the Privateers wardec'ing spree. As a side note, they did succeed in putting an end to the Privateers' reign of terror. Some of you reading this may believe that because your highsec piracy survived previous nerfs, it will always survive. You may assume that because you have adapted to previous changes, CCP will never go far enough to eliminate your choice of gameplay. Tell that to the Privateers. At their height, they inflicted more damage than any alliance in EVE, out-killing bigger alliances by an order of magnitude. Then the nerf came, and they were cast into the shadow of permanent irrelevance. If CCP wants to stop you, they can. So do they want to stop you? The coming changes to wardecs may provide a clue. Aside from adding a few additional nerfs, they've pretty much kept the same rules over the last five years. Why the change? Is it because they want more PvP in highsec, or less? We'll know when we get the final word on the changes, the details of which are currently a bit hazy. But they have suggested that some changes will help the targets of wardecs, while others will close the loopholes currently being abused by those targets. Another side note: If the carebears are "abusing loopholes," then why isn't CCP rushing to declare said loopholes an exploit, the same way they did with the boomerang tactic? Just a thought. At any rate, the changes to wardecs will be an excellent opportunity to see whether CCP is indeed employing the technique described earlier for introducing new nerfs. If so, the nerfs to wardecs will be punitive. For instance, they may raise the cost of wardecs far beyond what it had been before. Since there are already draconian limits in place, this would be a clear sign that CCP wants to phase out highsec violence entirely. Meanwhile, will the supposed buffs to wardecs be effective? Or will it still be possible for carebears to easily evade wardecs, using methods like dropping corp or dissolving and re-forming corps? Time will tell. CCP has also announced there will be some brand new nerfs for people who steal from cans, including a global criminal flag. In the past, if you stole from another corp's can, they could attack you. CCP wants to change it so that third parties (i.e. everyone else) can attack a can-stealer. An interesting idea. At Fanfest, they also suggested that after a third party attacks you, it will get you CONCORDed if you shoot back. The audience was appalled, and CCP quickly backpedaled. They seemed surprised that nobody liked the idea of being unable to defend themselves. The mystery for the EVE players is, where did that idea even come from? With all of the problems faced by EVE today, who are the people who think that the big issue that needs to be solved is, "too much pew-pew in highsec"? EVE takes place in a fictional galaxy. There's no limit to the possibilities that can be explored in such a setting. The imagination is free to take flight. Yet, when it comes time to add new features in new expansions, the first idea on the table to be discussed is, "Let's punish people for shooting at each other in highsec." It's a little odd, wouldn't you say? Who's behind this? The answer is clear. It's the highsec miners who are to blame. Most of us ignore the carebears, and we really couldn't care less about them. For those of us who spent most of our EVE careers in nullsec, we don't give them any thought. As it turns out, the carebears are quite important, because CCP gives them what they ask. So we had better find out what's been going on with these carebears. It's time to learn what the highsec miners are really all about. * * * (Proceed to section 9.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:29:00 - [9] - Quote THE CULTURE OF THE NEW CAREBEAR As EVE players, there are certain basic truths by which we live and die. Among these are that you don't fly what you can't afford to lose, that there is no safe space in the EVE galaxy, that everything in EVE is PvP, and so on. We hold these truths to be self-evident, but we also take them for granted. We assume that everyone else who plays EVE agrees with and accepts them. No matter how many ways you can play this game, no matter what country another group of players is from, no matter how different the alliance on the other end of the map may be, no matter how much you may hate the alliance on the other side of the border...everyone agrees with these core values. It's the shared culture of EVE. It's not surprising that in the face of EVE's incredible diversity, there would still be some shared values. After all, we were all drawn into EVE for similar reasons. You might have discovered EVE after reading the article about the Guiding Hand Social Club's infamous corp infiltration. Or maybe you learned about EVE from one of the articles about the great scams and banking schemes, like the Eve Intergalactic Bank. Perhaps it was a tale from the vast front-lines of the Great War, or The Mittani's spies, or the BoB cheating scandal, or the death of a titan, or some other story about cunning and treachery. Odds are good that you didn't come to EVE because you heard about how great the PvE is. Imagine the kind of stories people would read about EVE if the carebears got their wish. "In EVE Online, some people mined. They arranged their mining lasers, and then they did something else for several minutes. Sign up for your free 14 day trial now!" Years ago, even the carebears who wiled away their days in the belts understood that EVE is, and should be, a cutthroat game. Today, that's no longer the case. Over the last few years, a new presence has crept into the EVE community. Their ideology is so utterly foreign to our own that it defies belief. It wasn't until these last few months that I was willing to accept the truth of their existence. The "new" carebears don't want even the remove possibility of PvP to exist in highsec. They want to ban suicide ganking, can-flipping, corp infiltration, wardecs, all of it. I know this because they told me. In fact, they've become rather open about it, if you ask them. In years past, the carebears at least claimed to believe there should be some violence in highsec, though they wanted to limit it. Now they're calling for an outright ban to anything that disturbs their AFK little mining ships. If you don't believe me--and until recently I wouldn't have believed it myself--then simply go to a chatty highsec mining system and ask them yourself. Miners told me the insurance nerf would end the suicide gankings, and they were terribly wrong, but they're still just as confident that things will change in their favor. Now the conventional wisdom among these carebears is that the Sony tie-in with Dust 514 will result in Sony pressuring CCP to end non-consensual PvP. It's also popular in these circles to claim that after the unpleasantness with The Mittani at Fanfest, CCP will finally classify non-consensual PvP as "cyber-bullying." You may think I'm joking or exaggerating. I wish I were, but I'm not. Just last week, after killing some highsec miners and informing them of my protection fee, I got petitioned. The miner told me that the GM explained to him that ransoms and protection schemes are not against the EULA. That's right, ladies and gentlemen. There are highsec miners out there right now who need to be told piracy is allowed in EVE. When you shoot them, they petition to ban you for griefing. That's the new carebear. I'm sorry to say that they do exist. ...And they're everywhere. Like it or not, these are the kind of people with whom CCP interacts on a daily basis. Who do you think is sending in all the petitions the GMs have to read? It's not the nullsec alliances who lose their fleet or territory in a war, it's the carebear who doesn't understand why his ship is allowed to go boom. This necessarily warps the perspective of the people who run the game. That's why they think what the players really want from the next expansion is another round of nerfs to PvP. To be sure, there are still some carebears who claim e-honour and dress up their whining with a facade of EVE-ness. They make their arguments for why the hulk and mackinaw ships need to be buffed. At the end of the day, it all boils down to, "Another ship shouldn't be able to blow up my ship. Even if I'm alone, defenseless, un-tanked, and AFK." That kind of carebear has been around for a long time, but the new carebears don't even bother with the pretense. They call for an outright ban of hostile activity. And there are thousands of them lobbying CCP each and every day. * * * (Proceed to section 10.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:30:00 - [10] - Quote LESSONS FROM AN ORCA HUNT In writing this Manifesto II, it is not my purpose to brag about all the ways I have punished the highsec miners for their crimes. At least, it's not my central purpose. Not my only central purpose, that is. At any rate, I have lately taken an interest in the Orca-class capital industrial ship. The Orca is frequently used by highsec miners both for ice mining and mining ore. The ship itself does not mine, but provides bonuses and a large cargo space for the exhumers in its fleet. Typically, a highsec mining operation will have an Orca along with a few mackinaws or hulks nearby. This configuration is considered much more efficient than using an anchored container and haulers. The Orca is largely considered to be invincible in highsec. With the standard tanking modules used by Orca pilots and accounting for resistances, they often have around 100,000 hitpoints. In addition, they possess some special features that make them an even less-enticing target for suicide gankers: Orcas have a corporate hangar array and a ship hangar whose contents cannot be scanned, dropped, or appear on killmails. For this reason, Orcas are also commonly used as freighters. It shouldn't be surprising to learn that many carebears do not believe it's even possible for an Orca to be killed in highsec. During the entirety of the Goons' Gallente Ice Interdiction campaign, thousands of exhumers died, but only 22 Orcas were reported killed. Orca gankings were highly organized and involved more than a dozen gankers striking simultaneously. Since the combined effort of the same number of gankers can inflict more damage by taking down multiple exhumers, the Orcas are almost always left alone. For the foregoing reasons, I recently became fascinated with the idea of solo-killing an Orca in highsec. As one cannot expect to solo-kill an Orca through can-flipping or suicide ganking, the use of wardecs was an obvious choice. And since CCP is planning to nerf wardecs, I felt it would be fitting to commemorate the wardec system by letting it go out with a bang. I'm sentimental that way. I flew around the belts (particularly ice fields) in highsec and started watchlisting all of the Orcas I saw who were members of corps, planning to wardec them all. I realized most of these pilots and corps would take measures to evade the wardec or simply wait out the week of war. But I was also confident that some percentage would simply ignore a wardec if it were made by a one-man alt corp. The highsec miners were thus presented with a choice: Either they could all stop mining, or they could show their true colors by joining an NPC corp or abusing the corp-dissolving non-exploit, or they could expose their ships to some risk by continuing to mine during the wardec. It was a win-win-win, as far as I was concerned. Carebears will point to this as evidence that the wardec system is unfairly stacked against them. Preposterous. The only reason that their options were such as I described them is that they refused to defend their mining ops with PvP ships. An all-mining corporation simply should not exist. A corp with no ability to defend itself only belongs in a PvE game, not EVE. These "corp" miners are among my least favorite in EVE. They are the bourgeoisie of highsec. They are little more than the bots they strive to distinguish themselves from, but they play at being "legitimate" EVE players by creating corps. Simply by declaring war, I was able to induce many of these players to drop the pretense and join an NPC corp for the duration of their EVE career. I consider this to be worth the effort, as CCP takes miners less seriously if they belong to NPC corps. It also prevents the NPC corp miner from gaining further political influence, since they are alienated them from the alliances they might otherwise join. Over the past few weeks, I have declared war on more than 70 different corporations. This is a large enough sample size to draw some basic conclusions about the response of highsec miners to a wardec. As expected, virtually every single corp refused to defend itself. More than 90% of the corps did something other than adding defense ships to their mining ops, thereby flunking the "Are you really an EVE player?" test. The vast majority of the miners either dropped into an NPC corp, dissolved and immediately reformed their corporations (corps as big as 12 members used this not-an-exploit-anymore device), or remained in corp but ceased mining during the war. The split was roughly even, though remaining offline/docked was probably a bit more popular than the other two options. Then there were those who simply ignored the wardec from the 1-man corp and went on mining. Those were the fun ones. * * * (Proceed to section 11.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:30:00 - [11] - Quote Evading wardecs has become part of the popular culture among highsec miners today. Years ago, it was considered a humiliation, something even most carebears were too proud to do. Sure, they might stay docked up for a week, but abandoning their corp was considered undignified. Dissolving and re-forming the same corp would get you banned. Things are different now. In this Manifesto II, I have been attempting to raise awareness of how "new" carebears view things in a manner unfamiliar to most of us in EVE. As I went about highsec wardec'ing the carebears, I was surprised by how often the "description" label of the corp, or even the bio of the pilots themselves, would proclaim their willingness to evade wardecs. One miner corp's description even said that the corp was "founded on the principle" that highsec should not have PvP, and warned would-be wardec'ers that the corp would dissolve. Some might suppose that they were all bluffing in order to discourage wardecs. In my experience, they were simply being honest. Finally, some miners couldn't be bothered to alter their routines, and they went out into the belts to mine as usual. I don't know what they were thinking. Maybe they were so used to years of peaceful mining in highsec that they didn't believe they could be attacked. If so, they were mistaken. After scouting a miner corp with an alt, I sent their bookmarked locations to my main, who joined the appropriate war corp if he wasn't already a member. Then my main went to the target system and did what every good EVE pilot does to war targets. My ship of choice was the Ishtar, a drone-wielding heavy assault cruiser. I chose the Ishtar for a couple of reasons. First, I could stuff the midslots with a bunch of warp disruptors and tackle as many of the Orca's mackinaw/hulk alts as possible. Second, the Ishtar's drones allow for a decent amount of DPS while leaving the highslots free for something special that I'll explain later. I soon discovered the real reason why many of these miners chose to continue mining, defenseless, during an active wardec. They used bots and/or proximity alerts that enabled them to immediately warp back to a station if a war target entered local. At first, I was puzzled by their ability to react so quickly. I was able to eliminate the possibility they were using watchlists--my main joined the warring corp shortly before entering the system. Nor were they scouting the gates, since there were usually multiple gates, no one present at them, and/or all of their corp members accounted for in the belt during the initial scouting. And it couldn't have been that they were merely monitoring local for people with the war target tag, since the systems often had as many as 100-200 pilots. Yet some miners were able to immediately initiate warp from the moment I entered the system. The conclusion was obvious: Highsec miners were using cheats to protect themselves during wardecs. It's another fitting demonstration of the hypocrisy of the carebears. They defend themselves using the "sandbox" excuse, all while trying to get the rules changed so other people can't do what they want. Having successfully lobbied CCP to bend the rules in their favor, they're still not satisfied. They'll use any bot, cheat, or exploit that they can get their hands on, breaking the very rules over which they exert so much influence. They only had one problem. Orcas take a long, long time to align for warp. After I realized the miners were cheating, I did everything possible to shorten the time between my entry into the system and my arrival at the target. You see, while mackinaws and hulks could easily get to warp in time, Orcas take 40-50 seconds to align, depending on skills. So by the time their cheats had warned them--or in the case of bots, simply initiated warp on their own--the clock was ticking, and I was hurtling toward the Orca. If you're familiar with a ship type, you can tell by its speed whether it's almost done aligning. On more than one occasion, I came out of warp and tackled an Orca the very moment before he was able to escape. And when I tackled these cheaters in their Orcas, do you think I showed them any mercy? * * * (Proceed to section 12.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:30:00 - [12] - Quote I do not wish to give the impression that all of the highsec miners are cheaters. During my Orca-hunting operation, I found that only a ridiculously large minority of them cheat. As for the rest, they were taken completely by surprise when my blinking-red Ishtar came barreling into their ice field. Unlike Orcas, mackinaws and hulks can align to warp relatively quickly, but you normally get about 5 seconds or so of warning between the time someone lands on grid and when they can start locking you. When they didn't use cheats to get away before I arrived, the Orcas' exhumer alts always got tackled--unless there were so many that I ran out of warp disruptors. And if they were AFK, sometimes even the extra miner alts got popped, since my Ishtar could go through them, execution style, at a rate of about 20 seconds per miner. Even without counting the unknowable contents of an Orca's corporate hangar and ship hangar, Orcas are pretty valuable ships. They're currently selling in Jita for over 700 million isk, and the price is going up all the time. But because the miners don't abide by the rule of only flying what you can afford to lose--since they think they can't lose anything--they'll spend as much money as they've got fitting them out. Before I began killing Orcas, I thought tech II cargo rigs were basically a myth, added to the game for the sake of completeness. But no, a highsec miner will spend another 800 million just to squeeze in some extra ore per hauling trip. An Orca is so valuable in fact, that an Orca pilot might actually pay a hefty ransom to save his ship. If not, he'll often pay a post-death protection fee to prevent further destruction. But as I quickly discovered, the highsec miners don't put their real wealth into their ships. There's only so much isk you can spend fitting out your mining fleet. The real money is in their capsules. If you think highsec miners are confident they won't get their ships blown up, they're infinitely more secure in the knowledge that they will never, ever get podded. Highsec, unlike nullsec, does not allow the use of bubbles of any kind. If you want to save your pod, you can select a celestial body and mash the "warp" button over and over while your ship is burning. It's an old trick, and it takes advantage of the fact that if you can repeatedly send a command in advance, lag will work in your favor. For those with less e-honour, you can also use the classic "logoffski," causing your pod to warp out the very moment your ship goes boom. Because of lag, even an interceptor hyped-up with sensor boosters can't catch a pod if you do it right: A pod pilot can hit "warp" in advance, but the attacker can't start trying to lock until the pod appears in the overview--by which time he's already in warp. A pod has zero align time. It is conventional wisdom that in empire space, a pod with a good pilot can always, always escape. I liked being able to kill Orcas and their exhumer teams, but I didn't like the idea that they were still able to get away with all those expensive implants. I decided it was important to teach the highsec miners that until they break EVE for good, nothing--not even a capsule--can be taken for granted in highsec. I have to say, I have always held a special place in my heart for smartbombs. Back in nullsec, with the aid of a well-placed bubble, I used to kill many ships with nothing else but those lovely, green, amoeba-looking smartbombs. Since an Ishtar's DPS comes from its drones, I had no need of weapons in my highslots, leaving them free for smartbombs. I knew from experience that two large named explosive smartbombs can one-shot a pod. Since I had no familiarity with medium-sized smartbombs, I went to the drawing board. After doing more math than is proper for a video game, I found that if properly chosen and activated in the correct order, four medium faction smartbombs can insta-pop a capsule. If the victim has maximum skills, it just barely works, almost down to the hitpoint. Even with the necessary weapons, podding an Orca pilot was still just a dream. True, a slow pilot could be popped by smartbombs much more easily than he could be tackled. But if a pilot uses the warp-mashing technique or the logoffski, his pod might be just as invincible as everyone has always said. Orca pilots are extremely protective of their pods. It takes three minutes or more for my Ogre IIs to chew through an Orca's massive hitpoint buffer. As his shields, armor, and structure are slowly stripped away, an Orca pilot is thinking about only one thing: Rescuing his pod. You have the occasional dullard, but nearly all Orca pilots are ready to warp out in an instant. I knew all of this. But you have to understand that I really, really wanted to kill these guys. * * * (Proceed to section 13.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:31:00 - [13] - Quote I began with the assumption that the conventional wisdom about unkillable pods in highsec was wrong. I had no factual basis for this; I simply wanted to believe that I could smash the Orca pilots' implants. I took a close look at a video I made back in 2007 in which I smartbombed a bunch of Band of Brothers ships to death. I usually killed their pods, but that was because I was operating in nullsec with a bubble. From the video, I knew it was possible to activate smartbombs too soon: If you activate 7 large smartbombs within range of a shuttle, the first couple bombs will kill the shuttle, but the subsequent bombs will not kill the pod. Thus, there is some time during which the ship is dead, but the pod doesn't yet exist to be hit. Going frame by frame through the old video, I saw that the destruction of a ship and the emergence of a pod takes place in several steps. First, the locked target pop-up window (showing the hitpoints of the ship) disappears. Next, the overview shows the ship listed as the ship type, rather than the name of the pilot. This is when the ship is deemed to be empty, but not yet a wreck. Afterward, the pilot's pod appears on the overview along with the empty ship. Finally, the ship disappears from the overview and become a wreck. I determined that pods become vulnerable when they first appear alongside the dead ship. At the next opportunity, I fired smartbombs the instant I saw an Orca's pod emerge. The bombs glowed green while the pod was still on the overview, but then the pod casually warped off, unharmed. Perhaps the conventional wisdom was correct. It was the power of lag. I found it easy to see why people couldn't lock pods: By the time you are allowed to try locking them client-side, they're already in warp server-side. But unlike locking a ship--and like pressing the "warp" button--it's possible to fire smartbombs whenever you want. I decided to try using the smartbombs at the earliest visual indicator that the ship was dead: The disappearance of the locked target pop-up window. The pod would not be vulnerable--it would not even be on the overview yet--but with lag, maybe the timing would work itself out. A few days later, an Orca pilot gathered his exhumer crew and went to work abusing a highsec belt. In doing so, he unwittingly presented himself to me as a test subject. As the Orca's structure ticked down, the furious pilot logged off, guaranteeing his pod's safety. Normally I would have been annoyed, but I recognized that if I succeeded in killing his pod anyway, the results would be incontrovertible. Otherwise a podkill could be the result of a slow pilot who didn't properly use the "mash warp" technique. As soon as the locked target window disappeared, I jammed my fingers on the F-keys. After the briefest pause, my smartbombs glowed green, seemingly at the very moment the pod appeared on the overview. Then the pod dimmed, like ships do when they warp off grid. But the pod's speed didn't change. I looked for it, and there it was. A corpse. Pods do have lag on their side. And it's true, they have an align time of zero, sending them immediately to warp if the pilot does things right. But as it turns out, they also take a second--perhaps a fraction of a second--to actually warp away. If the smartbomber times it right, he can fire his bombs during that incredibly small window of time and vaporize the contents of a highsec miner's pod. From that point forward, an Orca pilot's chance of escaping with his pod intact went from about 100% down to about 0%. Killing the pods changed everything. The ships were expensive; the pods were often much more expensive. There were Orca pilots with well over a billion isk worth of implants. Even implants in their exhumer alts' pods contained absurdly expensive stuff. In one strike, I killed an Orca, his three mackinaw alts, and all four of their pods. Curious, I went over the killmails and researched the prices on everything to tally up the cost. In a matter of minutes, I had set back the highsec miner over 8 billion isk. * * * (Proceed to section 14.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:31:00 - [14] - Quote At first I was simply amazed by the figure. Then I puzzled over how an ice miner in highsec got that much isk in the first place. I wondered how long it would take him to grind all that isk back. Then I started to feel something else...regret. For most people, losing stuff in EVE makes a difference. I know how hard people can take the big losses. Normally a loss of the size I inflicted on that miner would be spread out across an alliance of many players in nullsec. Or maybe some insanely rich RMT'er. It certainly wouldn't be concentrated on a highsec miner, toiling away in the ice fields, spending years in total safety punctuated by a single, ghastly attack. I had noticed that some of the Orca pilots I had killed went offline and remained offline, even weeks after the attacks. I wondered whether it was a good thing that I was doing, inflicting such harm on random EVE players I'd never met. But then I remembered. I remembered how they killed nullsec PvP. I remembered how they inflicted nerf after nerf on the game, and how they bragged and gloated each time. I remembered how they botted and cheated and hypocritically sought to dictate the rules while breaking any rule they wanted. I remembered how they nearly brought an end to EVE with their precious Incarna. I remembered how each and every day, they continued their efforts to mold EVE into their own twisted image. And I remembered what they did to The Mittani. Suddenly, I was filled with a different kind of regret. I regretted that I didn't have the power to take every last isk from every single miner in highsec. I tell you the truth, if it were possible--within the bounds of the EULA, of course--to completely bankrupt each of the thousands of carebears in EVE, I would do it in a heartbeat, and afterward I would sleep like a baby. This might be a good place to put a "Moby Dick" reference, but given the fact that orcas are whales, it would be a little too on the nose. I'll just spare us both the trouble, reader. So the killing of the Orcas continued. I went on hunting them, leaping from corp to corp, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that the next Orca would have tech II cargo rigs, a mining foreman mindlink, and maybe a few friends with Michi's Excavation Augmentors. Sometimes they fought back, digging into their drone bays for anything that could tear through my shields faster than I could slog through their enormous hitpoint buffers. But they discovered to their amazement that their drones simply evaporated--another reason why smartbombs are a ganker's best friend. The other mining corps sharing the belts noticed the "James 315 has started trying to warp scramble" notification and witnessed their friends' demise, but lazily resumed chewing their ice without comment. In desperation, a tackled Orca paid the ransom I requested. He must have known it was a futile gesture, but when his ship continued to be fired upon, he demanded an explanation all the same. James 315 > You're my enemy. I lied. As any ganker will tell you, there is great satisfaction in the killing of hulks and mackinaws. But having tasted the delicious flesh of an Orca, and having savored the most delectable pods that they conceal within...It's ruined me for the less-exotic carebear hulls. To understand, one must review the killmail of a freshly-popped capsule, one ripened to its fullest extent, nearly bursting with its list of strange and wonderful implants. It is an experience that must be taken in slowly and thoughtfully, like enjoying a fine wine. Many carebears took their losses in silence. When they did speak, it was always the same. "WTF?" and "Why?!" They always wanted to know why someone would kill a miner. Looks like someone didn't read my first manifesto. If a carebear wanted to engage in conversation, I always listened, patient and courteous. I listened to them because CCP listens to them. In these unguarded moments, the carebears confessed everything. They admitted that they wanted all non-consensual PvP to be removed from EVE, and for all highsec to be a purely safe, PvE zone. In so doing, the carebears unknowingly convicted themselves of the crime with which I charge them today. There's no doubt the new carebears are guilty of viewing normal, sanctioned, essential EVE play as "bullying" or "griefing." The question remains, however. Should the carebears be granted their wish? Is this so-called "griefing" worth keeping in EVE, or should it be discarded in the hopes of creating a kinder, gentler EVE? Any normal EVE player would recoil at the suggestion. But let us not take anything for granted. Let us consider the worth of the "grief," about which these thousands of carebears daily complain to the GMs. * * * (Proceed to section 15.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:32:00 - [15] - Quote THE CONFLICT OF VISIONS At the heart of the ideological battle between the carebears and the rest of us, is a conflict of visions. There are two completely different visions about the way EVE should be. There is no room for compromise. Maybe you believe there is a middle ground. Through an endless series of nerfs, those favoring PvP (or "grief") have indeed been forced to compromise. But if the carebears were interested in compromise, they would have stopped bleating for nerfs long ago, as they already received more than their fair share of favors. The carebears continue in their efforts--accelerating them, actually--because they are not interested in compromise or middle ground. They, too, understand that you can only have one vision or the other: Either a ship in highsec can be killed, or it can't. As long as the mining ships aren't invincible while AFK, the carebear is not satisfied. Thus, you either have a PvP game, or a pure PvE game. Some carebears still claim to be moderates, expressing a wish for "more limited" or "balanced" PvP in highsec. That argument may have flown years ago, but since the demand for nerfs has never ended, it's fair to say that they can only have one aim in mind. The "new" carebear, as earlier described, offers no such pretense, openly crying for a guaranteed safety zone. Therefore, everyone has a choice to make. Either you stand with the carebear vision of a PvE game, or you support the vision of EVE as it has always been, a PvP game. Which is better? If EVE has value, it isn't because of its mining interface. EVE is valuable because it is unique: It is the only game with consequential, non-consensual PvP. That means you can blow up someone else's ship and it matters. Destroying or defending assets in EVE makes a difference. The assets have worth because they can be lost. EVE's success in the video game market has always come from the fact that people can find something in EVE that they can't get anywhere else. Because actions have consequences in EVE, players become motivated. In an intense battle, players on both sides find their hearts racing. When a pirate chases down a hauler carrying expensive loot, both the chaser and the chased experience a surge of adrenaline. In their desire both to build and to destroy, EVE players have gone to great lengths, committing acts of extraordinary courage, deception, creativity, leadership, brutality, and perseverance. My Orca-flying victims only wanted to be left to play EVE in peace. I contend that they weren't playing EVE in the first place. They may have spent years logged in, but did they ever experience anything? The first time the game evoked a genuine human emotion from the miner is when he saw me kill his ship. When he was spending his years carting around ore, it was not EVE--it was a joke. When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. He would say it was an act of griefing. I would call it a masterpiece. He should be, if not grateful for being killed, at least appreciative of the art. And what about the carebear's vision? What do carebears want to do in their fantasy EVE, a sterilized PvE game? For the most part, nothing. They wish to be AFK, occupied elsewhere. I must say that for my part, I don't see much financial success for a game where people need to be so disengaged. It's not much better when they are at their keyboards, for the carebear vision of EVE involves logging in, shooting some rocks, hauling them, and logging out. The same thing, day after day, month after month, year after year. Carebears call that "relaxing." Yeah, and I guess coffins are relaxing, too. On occasion, a carebear requests some distraction from his undead playing style. Incarna was the epitome of this, focused as it was on pants and monocles. Recently, one of the major carebear candidates for CSM was asked point-blank what he would do if he could add anything to EVE. His answer? The ability to take off his pants while in station. The contrast between the two visions of EVE could not be more clear. On the one hand, you have the "grief" of a game where both victory and defeat are possible. Its culture is represented by the great wars of EVE, the sweeping epics of powerful alliances rising and falling, the grandeur of capital fleets, the sophistication and technical brilliance of trans-galactic logistics, and the striking displays of every aspect of human nature. On the other hand, you have the carebear vision of a safe EVE. Its culture is represented by the last few weirdos dropping trou in Jita 4-4 before the servers slip into a permanent darkness. My point, ladies and gentlemen, is that grief, for lack of a better word, is good. * * * (Proceed to section 16.) * * *
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 102	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:33:00 - [16] - Quote first There should be a rather awesome pic here
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:33:00 - [17] - Quote HOW WE CAN STOP THE CAREBEARS It is not my intention to bring to light a problem without also providing a solution. I'm not here to spread a message of hopelessness. I believe that as serious a threat as the EVE community faces today, we are fully capable of meeting the challenge. I know that we can defeat the carebears, because we have done it before. When the carebears pushed Incarna and drove EVE to the brink of death, the EVE community fought back. As I said, the cancer is only in remission. We haven't much time. We need to move quickly, and with purpose. If we chose, we could stand idly by and wait in silence for the carebears to destroy EVE. If you want an alternative to that, you've come to the right place. Having made the decision to fight back against the carebears, what weapons and tactics should we employ? All of them. First thing's first. We cannot win this fight unless the people of EVE realize there is a fight. Most EVE players haven't the slightest idea what the carebears have been up to, and they don't see them as worth thinking about. That's the carebears' greatest strength at the moment. As long as the carebears' efforts to destroy EVE remain invisible, it will be impossible to defeat them. So to begin with, we need to wake people up. If you've made it this far, you know what the carebears are all about. But your friends and allies don't. Odds are, you have access to a lot of people: Corp members, alliance members, coalition members. Players you do business with or see in local every day, players on forums. Get the word out. Tell them in your own words what's going on, and direct them to this Manifesto II. If you've got access to an outside forum, it wouldn't be a bad idea to copy & paste it, or link the eve-search version; I cannot guarantee this thread will not be censored, deleted, or locked at the carebears' request. In short, we must make the activities of the carebears famous--not to praise them, but so that we can raise the awareness needed to stop them. Since the struggle against the highsec miners is primarily an ideological one, we must focus as much on ideas as actions. To survive, EVE must undergo a cultural revolution. Today, the profession of highsec mining is seen as pitiable, but tolerable. This can no longer be the case. We must make highsec mining utterly unacceptable as a practice going forward. The carebears' "sandbox" rationale cannot be allowed to stand any longer. Not while they're busy emptying the sand from the box and trying to ban the very PvP that makes EVE worth playing. Henceforth, the carebear should be viewed as a corrupting, intolerable influence in EVE. They should be held in the same low regard as furries, bronies, and former BoB members. Ideally, social pressure should persuade miners to change careers, and for new players to avoid taking up the profession altogether. Carebears use every tool at their disposal to spread their hateful vision of a neutered, PvE-based EVE. We outnumber them, but we must make the effort to combat them. Don't let them dominate forum threads either here or elsewhere. Don't allow CCP to think the carebears represent the playerbase of EVE. If the highsec miners flood the forums whining for "one more nerf" to PvP, then flood the forums right back. If you have a position of influence in a corp or alliance, it's time to set new rules. Not only should you tell your membership that highsec mining is no longer allowed, you should explain why it's not permitted. To drive home the point, you might want to make the announcement with a demonstration: Schedule a mining op, and when everybody arrives in their mining ships, have them killed. In the same vein, if you are an ordinary member of a corporation, take advantage of the fact that you are permitted by CONCORD to kill corpmates in highsec. Attend your next corp mining op in a "defense ship" and blast the friendly Orca. Make sure to get the pod, too--you know my methods. Alliances can do this on an even greater scale. Invite some highsec mining corporations to join your alliance. They may be eager, since this provides them greater protection from wardecs. Once they're on board, crash their mining op with your own miner-killing op. Your op will probably be the more successful one. There's one final group of players who can do their part to stop the carebears--the highsec miners themselves. If you are a miner, then you need to recognize that what you're doing is incredibly destructive. You need to stop mining and find something else to do in EVE. It could be anything: Scamming, suicide ganking, anything. But you cannot remain a carebear. If you won't stop, someone will be along shortly to make you stop. Did you really think you could go on like this forever, killing EVE? Didn't you think we would eventually find out, and that there would be consequences? The party's over. As for everyone else, continue to use suicide ganking, wardecs, and corp-infiltration as long as they're still permitted. Find the carebears and kill them. And let everyone in local know the reasons behind your actions. * * * (Proceed to section 17.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:34:00 - [18] - Quote The carebears will say anything to save their own skins. When you come for them, they'll make up stories about having powerful pirate friends or connections in nullsec. They'll claim be stay-at-home moms on their last PLEX, or disabled war veterans who can only calm their nerves by collecting ice crystals AFK. When they ask for mercy, show it to them--by killing their ships and encouraging them to change careers. And do not spare the newbies, who putter about the belts in their cheap little retrievers. They may seem cute and harmless, but they grow up. When fully mature, that newbie will be a carebear demanding an end to PvP. Remove them, root and branch. As Mithridates VI said of Rome, the carebears "...will blot out everything, or perish in the attempt." All highsec miners must perish from the face of EVE forever. There can be no exceptions. Tough love? Sure, but it's not as if we have an overabundance of alternatives. Know this: If the carebears aren't stopped, EVE will be shut down. The carebears will lose everything they have anyway. Merely robbing them of the ship (and preferably, the pod) that they're flying is therefore an act of kindness and generosity. Highsec miners do what they do because they get lots of money for little risk. It's a simple equation. If you want to stop them, you must increase their risk and decrease their money. The war with the carebears is a conflict of visions and a struggle for the very soul of EVE. My strategy for this war is simple: We win, they lose. A CALL TO ACTION People of EVE, you've heard the evidence. You have seen the carebears demand and receive an endless series of nerfs to highsec violence. You watched them divert wealth from areas of risk to areas of safety, thus eliminating most forms of nullsec PvP. Each day, you see the carebears clamor for increasingly absurd favors and buffs. You know from history that there is only one logical endpoint to the highsec miners' demands: Total invincibility while untanked, unescorted, and AFK. They do not hide what they have done; they revel in it. Each time CCP gives them what they ask, the carebears indulge themselves in an orgy of gloating and self-congratulation. And you know, too, where it leads. You saw, in the days of Incarna, how the carebears almost took down EVE entirely. You saw how only through the most valiant effort on the part of the true EVE community was CCP rescued from extinction. Now the highsec miners are putting all their effort, each and every day, into forcing EVE back onto the road to oblivion. This is not a murder mystery, with the culprit escaping into the shadows or hiding behind a mask. The carebears are out in the open, waving their blood-soaked arms in the air, screaming their guilty cries for more nerfs at the top of their lungs. I know most EVE players do not want to look upon the highsec miners as a threat. The carebears are a pathetic lot. Viewing them with seriousness honors them too much. Yet the fact remains that behind their dull eyes, vacuous smiles, and broken English, the carebears do wield power, because it is thoughtlessly given to them by CCP. Unlike the great nullsec alliances who earned their power through bloodshed and ingenuity, the carebears do not deserve to have any influence. The present crisis, however, cannot be solved by wishing it away, or saying "it shouldn't be so." I remind you that even the Band of Brothers of old, with all of its crooked connections, and even the Goons with all of their tenacity and vigor, were not able to stop the carebears from killing most of nullsec PvP. Nor could all the titans in EVE stop the shift to Incarna. Only the power of a united playerbase can change the course of EVE. Let there be no confusion about the stakes here. When the servers go down for good, everything you have built in EVE will be wiped away forever. In the meantime, if the carebears continue to lobby CCP as successfully as they have in the past, they will march through your elaborate defenses and transfer your wealth to highsec, where it will be protected from all harm. So yes, let us give the carebears the dignity of seeing them for the threat that they are. Mindless and unworthy, perhaps. But they are not scenery. They are your enemy. Treat them accordingly. * * * (Proceed to section 18.) * * *
James 315 Caldari Provisions Caldari State 435	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:34:00 - [19] - Quote What is the alternative? Nullsec alliances, when someone enters your territory and attempts to take everything away from you, what is your response? Do you not defend yourselves? Do you not fight back? If possible, do you not kill them so they won't try it again? Some believe that EVE's transition to a PvE game cannot be stopped. They say that by fighting the miners openly, we only accelerate the process, intensifying the whines of the carebears and triggering more nerfs. I do not believe it, but suppose it's true. If the death of EVE is inevitable, I say let it come now, on our terms. Should we let it be said that we allowed EVE to go down without a fight? The people of EVE had to fight once before, to save the game from the Band of Brothers. Now we must fight to save it again. Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution--but from annihilation. We're fighting for the EVE community's right to live, to exist. We can't be consumed by our petty differences any longer. We will be united in our common interests, against our common enemy. It's not enough to know the truth; you have to act upon it. Some say the EVE community is too divided, diverse, and disinterested to act. I'm not worried. I am confident that each of you will do what is necessary. Once you feed upon the highsec miner's blood and drink of his tears, you will be a changed man or woman. You will never again doubt the righteousness of our cause or the rapture found in its methods. And even if you are completely focused on your own alliance, your own ships and assets--even if you have never so much as suicide ganked a retriever before--I know that when the day comes, when you log your character into a carebear zoo that a few months before was your favorite PvP game... ...You'll know what to do. END OF MANIFESTO II -315
Mentorm Republic University Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:34:00 - [20] - Quote Oh boy.... Reserved for lols
Sentinel Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:36:00 - [21] - Quote I stopped reading at "By the time"
Rene Fullchest Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension 14	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:37:00 - [22] - Quote You, sir, are a first-class idiot, of the highest order imaginable, without par or peer.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 117	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:38:00 - [23] - Quote Ground floor for round 2?
FlamesOfHeaven Sarif Digital Augmentation Research 17	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:38:00 - [24] - Quote Sentinel Smith wrote: I stopped reading at "By the time" this
Lady Aja 44	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:38:00 - [25] - Quote 18 posts on one page... talk about spamming.
Nylith Empyreal Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 106	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:39:00 - [26] - Quote Yes mein feuer. -á
Raiz Nhell DEEP CORPS 99	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:41:00 - [27] - Quote OMG My eyes... its like my computer screen vomited stupid and didn't stop... What happened to you to make you do this on the forums... Find a hole, crawl down it and think about what you've done. I'm so carebear my Pod bleeds rainbow... Beers + nullsec + dodgy fit = Loss mail
Alexa Coates The Scope Gallente Federation 97	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:42:00 - [28] - Quote jesus christ dude, chill, it's a game. Love my Gallente Federation Navy ships!
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 117	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:43:00 - [29] - Quote Alexa Coates wrote: jesus christ dude, chill, it's a game. Apparently it's more of a crusade to save a dying universe or some such.
DelBoy Trades Trotter Independent Traders. 355	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:45:00 - [30] - Quote I can't wait to read this. Damn nature, you scary!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Republic University Minmatar Republic 292	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:46:00 - [31] - Quote Ok. It was funny the first time. That's it. Nevermind. Just read it. It's still funny .
Pedro Snachez The Rolling Clones 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:50:00 - [32] - Quote I've done it once before, I'll do it again. This just in... Academia responds to OP
Aryndel Vyst GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 336	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:55:00 - [33] - Quote Mother of god.
Bill Lane Carebear Mafia 18	Posted - 2012.04.27 01:57:00 - [34] - Quote Yay the idiot posts again! Poor little thing literally has nothing better to do than write up giant complaint threads. Seriously dude, get a girl, or a guy (whatever floats your boat), make a friend, mostly get a job. Nobody reads your long ass posts because they are ridiculously long and you are just whining and complaining. STFU because nobody cares. Thanks
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 55	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:13:00 - [35] - Quote who killed null sec pvp: Everyone that chose to band together in 0.0 rather than keep fighting /thread oh yeah ibtl I say we report every post lol Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Marianne Youngblood GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:17:00 - [36] - Quote I enjoyed this, personally. I also like the Ishtar fitting. I will be trying this out.
Killer Gandry V I R I I Ineluctable. 317	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:18:00 - [37] - Quote I don't know what's more stupid. The length of the manifesto. The expectancy people actually want to read pages of vomit Those who have even less of a life than OP and did read that crap. fyi, I read the first few lines, then scrolled down and decided to lose intrest.
Chett Q Manly Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:19:00 - [38] - Quote THIS is why I mine. Because for some reason, me sitting and shooting a laser at a rock extracts countless tears from weak souls.
Yumar Almasy Production N Destruction INC. The Last Chancers. 2	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:20:00 - [39] - Quote "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "
Jett0 Team Kitty Choke Slam 101	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:22:00 - [40] - Quote ITT, the entire first page mistakes the forums for EVE culture as a whole. Log in every now and then, mate, and you'll feel better. Occasionally plays sober
Flash Morden Hedion University Amarr Empire 13	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:25:00 - [41] - Quote History in the making. On a random Friday in April James 315 invented MEGA shiptoasting. God help us all.
Ban Bindy Bindy Brothers Pottery Association 113	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:25:00 - [42] - Quote I think OP is following me.
Mathias Hex Hillcrest Armaments 119	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:29:00 - [43] - Quote When can we expect the next 10 chapters? I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.
DIsposible Hero State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:32:00 - [44] - Quote What is this I don't even.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 56	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:37:00 - [45] - Quote How is this obvious rant not locked yet are the mods on vacation? Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
MeestaPenni Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent 233	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:41:00 - [46] - Quote Jeez....I hope there isn't going to be a quiz on this. Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:41:00 - [47] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: How is this obvious rant not locked yet are the mods on vacation? The last one wasn't locked either.
Evalin Black Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:42:00 - [48] - Quote James 315 wrote: But having tasted the delicious flesh of an Orca, and having savored the most delectable pods that they conceal within...It's ruined me for the less-exotic carebear hulls. To understand, one must review the killmail of a freshly-popped capsule, one ripened to its fullest extent, nearly bursting with its list of strange and wonderful implants. It is an experience that must be taken in slowly and thoughtfully, like enjoying a fine wine. Reading that made my belly grumble and my mouth water, tasty pods, mmm. On a serious note I enjoyed the read and I think many valid points made, I think for many that have played this game richly over the years it is apparent that there is a very vocal army of bears that are out to make this game wow in space. How many years did we have insurance on suicide gankings, yet once the goons did something for a few weeks suddenly it gets nerfed for the future of the game. One can only guess what nerfs will be incoming after the the jita weekend and hulkageddon.
RavenTesio Liandri Corporation 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:48:00 - [49] - Quote High-Sec Mining Killed Null-Sec PvP? ... I unfortunately took the time to read it all, was kinda like walking up a hill - half way up was thinking "God I wish I hadn't started this!" But despite the sheer number of words, I'm still REALLY unclear as to the connection. While I'm not a huge fan of a certain breed of miner (as in, one that believes it is the only aspect of EVE) honestly, their solutions to help maintain a healthy economy through their own personal weird greed helps PvP by reducing the prices of ships meaning those of us who can't spend our entirely lives online doing the mundane missions and crap can afford to still get in something relatively shiny and have some fun. Goons and Test on the other hand, are destroying most players abilities to even afford the smaller ships with their recent "Kill any miner that moves" Campaign. This is inversely actually putting off a good number of people who just began playing because everything was quite expensive (from their point of view, try earning from Level 1 missions for a week!) to begin with; Frigates along have increased nearly 100% in price in 3months. I'm not sure how they're helping anything but actually destroying peoples abilities to play, we will get to a point where the only people who can afford to PvP are going to be Alliances and those Miners that they're killing. Can't help but feel that someone doesn't understand the word Ironic.
FeAKz Ship vs Rock 49	Posted - 2012.04.27 02:49:00 - [50] - Quote Edit.
Ziranda Hakuli Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens 33	Posted - 2012.04.27 03:05:00 - [51] - Quote OMG!!!! Long winded butt hole who wishes to hear one speak. CCP when can admin stuff to lock down idiots?
Barakach R-ISK Shadow Operations. 59	Posted - 2012.04.27 03:07:00 - [52] - Quote And here I thought Low/Null PvP killed itself by not being fun enough for others to actually participate. Something about station camping while talking smack just doesn't seem fun.
Asuri Kinnes Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy 364	Posted - 2012.04.27 03:07:00 - [53] - Quote O.P.: Never, ever, post again. Play the game, quit typing. ffs... Wormholes: The NEW end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs. NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA!
Simetraz State War Academy Caldari State 228	Posted - 2012.04.27 03:21:00 - [54] - Quote That is a lucid, intelligent, well-thought out objection Bail denied and you are here by remanded to Concord Mental Health Institution. You will not be eligible for parole back into high-sec for at least 20 Years. May you find solace in the emptiness of 0.0 Space. Court Adjourned
Vangelios Hedion University Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2012.04.27 03:51:00 - [55] - Quote I hope that no one will object if I offer to OP my most enthusiastic contrafibularities. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOSYiT2iG08 ...-áEach small candle Lights a corner of the dark...
Morganta Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia 1039	Posted - 2012.04.27 03:55:00 - [56] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read no **** The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy
Aggressive Nutmeg 203	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:01:00 - [57] - Quote Can someone read this and give me a one-sentence summary? Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:10:00 - [58] - Quote I can't believe I actually read all that. Holy crap do you have way too much time on your hands. I agree with every word of it though and CCP needs to take a look at this if they don't want Eve to go down in flames like post-CU/NGE Starwars Galaxy. Aggressive Nutmeg wrote: Can someone read this and give me a one-sentence summary? Carebear miners are winning the propaganda war with CCP and the game has been getting more carebear, particularly high sec.
Karn Dulake Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance 573	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:17:00 - [59] - Quote I read three pages of this horseshit and gave up. personally i thought that the CSM were all nullsec people and they were the voice of the people but it turns out that there is a secret cabal that all high sec miners are a part of threatening CCP to do their will Also OP please do the following 1. go to the doctor and tell him about your suicidal thoughts (this is not a troll CCP) 2. change your social life to include real people 3. Girlfriend is needed but never talk to her about EVE 4. Quit this game for a few months and go outside and walk barefoot on the grass 5. If you cant get a job then try to get some retraining, 6. Worst post ever and the only likes you got were from your alts Good luck and get some help I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Creed Richards Xoth Inc Omega Vector 6	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:19:00 - [60] - Quote How do you propose to make up for the resource shortfalls that would inevitably result if high-sec mining was completely interdicted. This activity you speak so many words to condemn is the foundation which all the activities you praise rest. Sooner or later, someone has to sit down and fire up the mining lasers. Thus, since actually paying attention to said activity is equivalent to watching paint dry, it's useful for ones sanity and productivity to be doing something else. However, what you say is not completely without merit. To be quite frank, I think it would be awesome is all sec status below .8 was low sec (with exception to gate areas). But certain balances would have to counteract the increased conflict, and still offer some means for the miner to do something else while maintaining the foundations of industry (remember: watching mining = watching paint dry). I don't have time to go into any sort of details (barely baked at this point), other than I remember when I first joined the game and started in low sec right away there was a community there while not officially allied more or less looked out for each other. We could enjoy mining in relative security. My 2 cents
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 599	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:20:00 - [61] - Quote Its far easy to just post some dumb remark then try to justify it and make it look cool like Mr. H did with his reasonings to start a war. Seriously, it works for masternerdguy so it should work for any game nerd that thinks they are a messiah comming from the promised lands
Corina Jarr Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built 712	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:25:00 - [62] - Quote At least he got one thing right. Carebears did kill null PvP. The Carebears IN null.
Hroya 37	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:34:00 - [63] - Quote A hefty long manifesto. I didnt read it all yet but will do so later when i get back from work. But i would like to point out that the start of this manifesto allready begins with false assumptions. -Shooting a gun or launching a missile arent the only form of pvp in eve. -High sec bots werent the sole property of high sec residents. -Lots of null-low-high-wh space players benefited from those bots but could allways disclaim accauntabillity. You knew where most of the goods came from but since it wasnt you doing the botting it made your consumption oke right ? -Show me that no one, not residing in high sec, has any complaints about certain gamemechanics .. blobs ? Supers ? I'll read the rest of you manifesto later today. You go your corridor but.
Nephilius Knights of Athena Star Council 365	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:37:00 - [64] - Quote Do you ever have moments where you become lucid enough to realize just how batsht insane you really are? Like when you are sitting, playing in your own ****, do you ever remark to yourself"Wow, it is frighteningly amazing just how crazy I really am." I read your manifesto months ago, and then I thought you to be dangerous. This new diatribe though...its so crazy that I can't see anyone taking you seriously. Please, up your dosage, your fantasy world is becoming far more elaborate and totally wrong. I love flying titans in Jita, setting bubbles in Rens,-áor firing off bombs from my stealth bomber-áin Dodixie!-á Just think, if Eve wasn't a sandbox, none of this would be possible!
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 741	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:40:00 - [65] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: How is this obvious rant not locked yet are the mods on vacation? Probably because it's brilliantly written, and not a rant. That wasn't a manifesto, it was a god damn Eve bible. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 599	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:41:00 - [66] - Quote James 315 wrote: This led to the creation of the "boomerang" tactic, wherein a ganker strikes and warps away just before CONCORD arrives, then warps back for one more strike (or in the case of multiple targets in separate locations, multiple strikes). Words stuff nonsense babel Pro-tip: CONCORD has arrival time, lock time, and transit time. So, you warp off when they arrive and they have to chase you, lock you, but again you are already off and in transit requiring them to chase after you. Yet, that does not sound exploitive to you, since CONCORD cannot target you during warp...so in fact you are evading the consequences and going rampant. CCP also never said you could never outrun CONCORD nor could you warp off to attack again...you are just supposed to die to them after the first aggression. Anyone ever wonder why CONCORD gets buffed repeatedly? Its because you the player, destroy highsec (why is no one in lowsec...yet it is so much better then highsec as the rewards are better...until you guys all play rogue wolf and slaughter off your prey). See, its ok to attack people...but to drive them off is bad for business for CCP. They never prevent you from ganking, just make it more difficult. But if its made easier...you get 5k active subs which is so 2003 don't you think. So keep up the good work, less people who can't even play the game is awesome until the day you find your subscription and PLEX costs have doubled.
Alx Warlord SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave 100	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:46:00 - [67] - Quote sorry tl;dr most of it... but... hmm, and why more players damage eve? if the old players keep playing? these carebers some day end up quitting playing or they go to Null or WH-Space and stop being carebers... it makes no sense hating miners, killing them and skyrocketing the market prices, this makes less people able to afford the game and reduce PVP... IMO, CCP should nerf hi-sec minning or buff nullsec and make these minners go seek the ore in more dangerous places and join bigger alliances having a role. So CCP should do what they are doing... planetary rings exploration... spreading t2 materials amon them... putting ice gravimetrics everywhere... CCP is on the right path! I hate when ppl only like 1 part of the game and wants to ruin all the others... COEXIST!!! There are manny diferent playstyles, this is a sandbox... we don't blame nor judge you for killing deffenseless ships (maybe yes, we do) but if it is your play style, I just hope that you have fun, there is nothing that we can do about it... (and I hope your playstyle get nerfed by CCP, as they increase mining barges tank, making lots of industrials happier and you more angry =D) ... Well... i'm going to dock my combat ship pick my minning barge and mine something... lol
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:53:00 - [68] - Quote Alx Warlord wrote: I hate when ppl only like 1 part of the game and wants to ruin all the others... COEXIST!!! There are manny diferent playstyles, this is a sandbox... we don't blame nor judge you for killing deffenseless ships (maybe yes, we do) but if it is your play style, I just hope that you have fun, there is nothing that we can do about it... (and I hope your playstyle get nerfed by CCP again, as they increase mining barges tank, making lots of industrials happier and you more angry =D) ... Considering the OP, you're either the biggest idiot or the most genius troll ever born and I'm not sure which...
Mors Sanctitatis Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS 468	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:54:00 - [69] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: How is this obvious rant not locked yet are the mods on vacation? Probably because it's brilliantly written, and not a rant. That wasn't a manifesto, it was a god damn Eve bible. The OP's post is both hilarious and sad at the same time. Hilarious because of the pure zealotry involved (not a bad thing) and sad because he's right. Well written, very amusing and too true. To the OP: revel in their hate- everyone who is disparaging your posts are carebears/botters themselves. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 742	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:55:00 - [70] - Quote Alx Warlord wrote: sorry tl;dr most of it... but... hmm, and why more players damage eve? if the old players keep playing? these carebers some day end up quitting playing or they go to Null or WH-Space and stop being carebers... it makes no sense hating miners, killing them and skyrocketing the market prices, this makes less people able to afford the game and reduce PVP... IMO, CCP should nerf hi-sec minning or buff nullsec and make these minners go seek the ore in more dangerous places and join bigger alliances having a role. So CCP should do what they are doing... planetary rings exploration... spreading t2 materials amon them... putting ice gravimetrics everywhere... CCP is on the right path! I hate when ppl only like 1 part of the game and wants to ruin all the others... COEXIST!!! There are manny diferent playstyles, this is a sandbox... we don't blame nor judge you for killing deffenseless ships (maybe yes, we do) but if it is your play style, I just hope that you have fun, there is nothing that we can do about it... (and I hope your playstyle get nerfed by CCP again, as they increase mining barges tank, making lots of industrials happier and you more angry =D) ... Well... i'm going to dock my combat ship pick my minning barge and mine something... lol Because: A) Us older players won't keep playing, as showed in incarna. B) Games that focus on carebears are not known for their longevity. An Eve in which carebears continue to receive one buff after another is an Eve that will very quickly die. Just look at the life spans of every other game that ever went that route, Eve has lasted as long as it has because it was originally fun. Now its slowly being turned into a **** PvE grind. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
EFF ONEF1 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 9	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:58:00 - [71] - Quote both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite.
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 599	Posted - 2012.04.27 04:58:00 - [72] - Quote Oh, does anyone remember Titan and XL gun tracking? Too soon? FYI, getting ganked by a Titan with non DD guns isn't much different then a hulk getting ganked. But look what happened...bitchwhines fixed the problem that the vast majority of those who couldn't HTFU and Adapt/Die by flying anything but a subcap. So...if not buffs to hulks then un-nerf titans, face it the ship is ment to be a fleet buster and its dones that in every incarnation until the recent pissing moans of a thai whre level of noise was high enough it had to be nerfed because...carebearish attitude of "I can't HTFU CCP, please nerf it!" brought attention to it. Carebears are not the problem, its the ****** human element with differing points of view and the more aggressive loudmouthed assholes squeaking like a slow fart that have self entitlement issues that their way is the right way.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:04:00 - [73] - Quote EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. No, actually. I agreed with the miners when they wanted better tanks for hulks. I also think high sec income should be nerfed severely. I haven't mined since the beginning of Eve, but when I did, I did it in a 0.2. I'm all for miners getting all the buffs they want. Believe it or not it's possible to be a miner who isn't a carebear. I'd love if they doubled the income from arkanor in fact. I do, however, want to nerf the **** out of carebears of all kinds and won't be happy until high sec income is appropriate for the newbie area that it is.
Karl Hobb Imperial Margarine 115	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:08:00 - [74] - Quote At the very least, it was a fun and well-written read. OP, were you the guy smart-bombing BOB guys (and others, lol) in a cloaky Mega back in the day? I love that video, part of what made me want to play EVE. +1 in local
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 58	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:10:00 - [75] - Quote Give the tier one barge a boost to ehp. Want to mine safely? Mine at less than 1/3rd the rate. Want to mine efficiently? grab the hulk and get crackin.
Sandra Vellocet Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:13:00 - [76] - Quote Chett Q Manly wrote: THIS is why I mine. Because for some reason, me sitting and shooting a laser at a rock extracts countless tears from weak souls. This ^
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 744	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:16:00 - [77] - Quote EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff? Now think of all the "features" CCP have introduced over the years that allow you to avoid that PvP. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:16:00 - [78] - Quote Aqriue wrote: FYI, getting ganked by a Titan with non DD guns isn't much different then a hulk getting ganked. But look what happened...bitchwhines fixed the problem that the vast majority of those who couldn't HTFU and Adapt/Die by flying anything but a subcap. So fly a titan or GTFO? Yeah makes sense. There won't be any more balance issues once everyone is flying the same ***** ship class. Edit: And ** newbies. The less accessible we make null the less carebears there will be. It's their own fault for not leaving character creation with 50 million SP.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 744	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:18:00 - [79] - Quote Sandra Vellocet wrote: Chett Q Manly wrote: THIS is why I mine. Because for some reason, me sitting and shooting a laser at a rock extracts countless tears from weak souls. This ^ Go play world of Warcraft or something. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:21:00 - [80] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Sandra Vellocet wrote: Chett Q Manly wrote: THIS is why I mine. Because for some reason, me sitting and shooting a laser at a rock extracts countless tears from weak souls. This ^ Go play world of Warcraft or something. Yeah me too and no I wont go back to WoW thats just more tears to extract from the rock lol IE QQ Moar In guessing the mods are on vacation or something cause it THIS doesnt count as a rant what does Simi Kusoni wrote: EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff? Now think of all the "features" CCP have introduced over the years that allow you to avoid that PvP. Id say tier three BCs with no tanks that have battleship guns. Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 749	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:24:00 - [81] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Sandra Vellocet wrote: Chett Q Manly wrote: THIS is why I mine. Because for some reason, me sitting and shooting a laser at a rock extracts countless tears from weak souls. This ^ Go play world of Warcraft or something. Yeah me too and no I wont go back to WoW thats just more tears to extract from the rock lol IE QQ Moar In guessing the mods are on vacation or something cause it THIS doesnt count as a rant what does What are you even on about? Welcome to the Eve-O forums, we'll be doing this all week. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Peter Raptor Plutonian Army 96	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:26:00 - [82] - Quote tl;dr but Im sure you're wrong on every single point. Evelopedia;-á The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á
Yuki 0nna The White Rose Conventicle 44	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:26:00 - [83] - Quote Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution."
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:26:00 - [84] - Quote Jayrendo Karr wrote: Give the tier one barge a boost to ehp. Want to mine safely? Mine at less than 1/3rd the rate. Want to mine efficiently? grab the hulk and get crackin. I agree with this as well. Not that I ever tank my hulk Not that Ive ever been attacked IN my hulk But if I lost my hulk I wouldnt whine to CCP to fix it, Id buy a new one cause Id know it was MY fault for losing it not theirs Simi Kusoni wrote: What are you even on about? Welcome to the Eve-O forums, we'll be doing this all week. extracting tears from the ppl that hate miners. What are YOU on about? Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Baneken Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate 117	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:27:00 - [85] - Quote 18 posts of worthless drivel has to be a some kind of record ? My hats to anyone who bothered to read all that.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 749	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:27:00 - [86] - Quote Peter Raptor wrote: tl;dr but Im sure you're wrong on every single point. Bad news; he wasn't. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:29:00 - [87] - Quote Baneken wrote: 18 posts of worthless drivel, has to be a some kind of record ? My hats to anyone who bother to read all that. Apparently Simi did care to give us a TLDR version? Other that I hate miners and blame all the game's woes at their feet? Cause yeah valid argument, 0.0 PVP is dead cause of the ppl that mine the minerals to make the ships you fight in... More likely to blame are the alliances that ally together so you have noone to shoot at? Naw cant be THAT Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Jason McCoy Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 35	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:29:00 - [88] - Quote Get a life, eve is a hobby FFS!
Rara Yariza Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:29:00 - [89] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read You missed out
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 749	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:30:00 - [90] - Quote Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." News flash: being a care bear does not make you Jewish. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Yuki 0nna The White Rose Conventicle 44	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:32:00 - [91] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." News flash: being a care bear does not make you Jewish. But it can get you treated like one in the diatribes of this kind. This is emotionally, morally ugly stuff. The way he is speaking of fellow EVE players is repugnant, or should be to any mature adult.
Rogatien Soldier EVE University Ivy League 10	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:33:00 - [92] - Quote TL... did... not... read. Like whoa.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 749	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:35:00 - [93] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Baneken wrote: 18 posts of worthless drivel, has to be a some kind of record ? My hats to anyone who bother to read all that. Apparently Simi did care to give us a TLDR version? Other that I hate miners and blame all the game's woes at their feet? Cause yeah valid argument, 0.0 PVP is dead cause of the ppl that mine the minerals to make the ships you fight in... More likely to blame are the alliances that ally together so you have noone to shoot at? Naw cant be THAT It wasn't really about miners, he just used that as an example because high sec miners tend to be the worst when it comes to crying for more safety nets. But tl;dr is basically that CCP consistently cave in to anti-PvP demands, nerf griefing, and never buff it. And that this is causing serious issues and imbalances with the game that are now starting to be felt. Anyway, I cannot do it justice in a short summary. I would just make it easy to refute his very well thought out points, I suggest you buckle up and learn to read faster. EDIT: Worth noting, its a lot shorter if you skip the bit about him killing orcas. That part is entertaining, but not necessary. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF*
Tergerom Loregeron Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation 36	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:35:00 - [94] - Quote Goon rush in 3, 2, 1....
Daquaris The Milkmen Test Alliance Please Ignore 35	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:36:00 - [95] - Quote **** you, I'm not reading all that.
Rogatien Soldier EVE University Ivy League 10	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:36:00 - [96] - Quote The first rule of fight club is... OMFG if you want to get a point across and actually convince somebody of something, don't put them to sleep first. Jesus. Gettysburg address bro... do you know how many Gettysburg addresses you just wrote? The effectiveness of any communique is inversely proportional to the ratio of said communique's length to the length of the Gettysburg address. If it's bigger than 9 inches, you're really only of interest to dudes who direct bad pron. And nobody gives a crap about the dialogue in bad pron.
Jon Lucien GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:37:00 - [97] - Quote Reset TEST.
Rogatien Soldier EVE University Ivy League 10	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:37:00 - [98] - Quote Can you try to do it justice in haiku? Simi Kusoni wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Baneken wrote: 18 posts of worthless drivel, has to be a some kind of record ? My hats to anyone who bother to read all that. Apparently Simi did care to give us a TLDR version? Other that I hate miners and blame all the game's woes at their feet? Cause yeah valid argument, 0.0 PVP is dead cause of the ppl that mine the minerals to make the ships you fight in... More likely to blame are the alliances that ally together so you have noone to shoot at? Naw cant be THAT It wasn't really about miners, he just used that as an example because high sec miners tend to be the worst when it comes to crying for more safety nets. But tl;dr is basically that CCP consistently cave in to anti-PvP demands, nerf griefing, and never buff it. And that this is causing serious issues and imbalances with the game that are now starting to be felt. Anyway, I cannot do it justice in a short summary. I would just make it easy to refute his very well thought out points, I suggest you buckle up and learn to read faster.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:38:00 - [99] - Quote Quote: THE ENDLESS HISTORY OF NERF DEMANDS So then by this guy's logic, 0.0 and lowsec are ruining the game too cause they do the same thing. High sec QQs about low and nul, low ans null QQ about high sec, Low mostly rightly QQs about lowsec cause they need the love, 0.0 QQs about WH having the same ore as them (albeit at higher risk so they really shouldnt QQ) 0.0 and lowsec QQed about Insursions in High and now that thats taken care of are on about lvl 4s again just like they have been for years (mind you unless they add tech moons to high sec I dont see where they even HAVE anthing to QQ about) Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 749	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:39:00 - [100] - Quote Rogatien Soldier wrote: The first rule of fight club is... OMFG if you want to get a point across and actually convince somebody of something, don't put them to sleep first. Jesus. Gettysburg address bro... do you know how many Gettysburg addresses you just wrote? The effectiveness of any communique is inversely proportional to the ratio of said communique's length to the length of the Gettysburg address. If it's bigger than 9 inches, you're really only of interest to dudes who direct bad pron. And nobody gives a crap about the dialogue in bad pron. The effectiveness of any message is increased tenfold by proper use of paragraphs. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
BiaXia GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:39:00 - [101] - Quote Look at all these scrubs who have no idea who James 315 is
Zastrow GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 43	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:39:00 - [102] - Quote I support James 315
Sverige Pahis Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation 1007	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:40:00 - [103] - Quote Read it all. Loved it.
GusHobbleton Amok. Goonswarm Federation 9	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:41:00 - [104] - Quote Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." yo imma let you finish but im invoking godwin's law up in here
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:41:00 - [105] - Quote Yuki 0nna wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." News flash: being a care bear does not make you Jewish. But it can get you treated like one in the diatribes of this kind. This is emotionally, morally ugly stuff. The way he is speaking of fellow EVE players is repugnant, or should be to any mature adult. It's a game, first of all. Secondly, you guys are kinda being dicks. You brought it on yourselves. GusHobbleton wrote: Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." yo imma let you finish but im invoking godwin's law up in here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 749	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:42:00 - [106] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Quote: THE ENDLESS HISTORY OF NERF DEMANDS So then by this guy's logic, 0.0 and lowsec are ruining the game too cause they do the same thing. High sec QQs about low and nul, low ans null QQ about high sec, Low mostly rightly QQs about lowsec cause they need the love, 0.0 QQs about WH having the same ore as them (albeit at higher risk so they really shouldnt QQ) 0.0 and lowsec QQed about Insursions in High and now that thats taken care of are on about lvl 4s again just like they have been for years (mind you unless they add tech moons to high sec I dont see where they even HAVE anthing to QQ about) No, you've just completely failed to understand it and proven my point. Either read it, or don't comment on it. It is not that long, long for a forum post but considerably shorter than most papers. I've written essays longer in under an hour. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Powers Sa GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 134	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:42:00 - [107] - Quote The OP is 100% dead on. Yuki 0nna wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." News flash: being a care bear does not make you Jewish. But it can get you treated like one in the diatribes of this kind. This is emotionally, morally ugly stuff. The way he is speaking of fellow EVE players is repugnant, or should be to any mature adult. The sheer unadulterated freaking irony.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:42:00 - [108] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: But tl;dr is basically that CCP consistently cave in to anti-PvP demands, nerf griefing, and never buff it. And that this is causing serious issues and imbalances with the game that are now starting to be felt. . they seem to cave in to whatever group quits the most imo Seems still to be in watch not listen mode. I know how you think the game is all consentual PVP and all but its really not as Burn Jita and Hulkageddon would like a word with you. Simi Kusoni wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Quote: THE ENDLESS HISTORY OF NERF DEMANDS So then by this guy's logic, 0.0 and lowsec are ruining the game too cause they do the same thing. High sec QQs about low and nul, low ans null QQ about high sec, Low mostly rightly QQs about lowsec cause they need the love, 0.0 QQs about WH having the same ore as them (albeit at higher risk so they really shouldnt QQ) 0.0 and lowsec QQed about Insursions in High and now that thats taken care of are on about lvl 4s again just like they have been for years (mind you unless they add tech moons to high sec I dont see where they even HAVE anthing to QQ about) No, you've just completely failed to understand it and proven my point. Either read it, or don't comment on it. Yeah GL with that idea on EVE-O Seems the mods agree with it or they wouldnt be keeping it open tho Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
BiaXia GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:44:00 - [109] - Quote I SHOOT SPACE ROCKS AND DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS YOU ARE BEING A LITERAL REINCARNATION OF A WELL KNOWN GERMAN DICTATOR BY LOOKING DOWN ON ME THAT'S RIGHT I MEAN KAISER WILHELM
BensBig Specter Syndicate CORE Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:46:00 - [110] - Quote I cannot recall ever seeing such a well written piece of propoganda in my entire Eve life. I would absolutely recommend this thread to my 50 closest enemies and just roll the dice and see which one has a brainfart and explodes. All this drama from the goons lately is like eating at one of those blackout restaurants. You have no idea what is coming but each course is different and better. BoB/IT tears generally have a european tang to them and are normally dry and bitter. HighSec/Carebear tears = The most abundant tears in Eve but quality and consistency can vary greatly and their is evidence linking highsec tears to BitterVet Syndrome. ***HolyCrap what is this delicious tear!!!!**** That my useles smelly friend is the ultrarare Privateer Collection Tear. The only known tear that becomes so bitter that it actually becomes sweet!!!!! Last but not least, We have the popular but evasive Goontard Tear. Its like bringing a Falcon on a roam, its only good when its on your side. I daresay it is the Bacon of tears!!!!!
Robbie Circus GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 32	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:47:00 - [111] - Quote Can we get this in a PDF? I can add pictures.
Tector GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 50	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:48:00 - [112] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read Too Pubbie; Can't Read is probably more apt.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 750	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:51:00 - [113] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: But tl;dr is basically that CCP consistently cave in to anti-PvP demands, nerf griefing, and never buff it. And that this is causing serious issues and imbalances with the game that are now starting to be felt. . they seem to cave in to whatever group quits the most imo Seems still to be in watch not listen mode. I know how you think the game is all consentual PVP and all but its really not as Burn Jita and Hulkageddon would like a word with you. As I have said, numerous times, idiots and noobs still die. Anyone outside in jita today, who isn't there consensually, is an idiot and a noob. Similarly, anyone going afk in an untanked hulk... Yeah. Other than idiots, PvP in this game nowadays is consensual. If you wish to disagree with me, by all means, post on your main and show us that you have at least a little PvP experience? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Roime Shiva Furnace 599	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:53:00 - [114] - Quote Where's the rest? Was kinda short, but good. Only issue I see is that it was actually mission runners who ruined EVE. The raiders, the questers. ~ Elite forum PvP ~
Zleon Leigh 115	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:57:00 - [115] - Quote What a waste of electrons.... Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day
Samahiel Sotken GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:58:00 - [116] - Quote Mother of God. That was beautiful.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 710	Posted - 2012.04.27 05:59:00 - [117] - Quote Rogatien Soldier wrote: Can you try to do it justice in haiku?[ Devs court the carebears Destroy selves in the process Making the game worse
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 710	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:00:00 - [118] - Quote Reason for reporting this thread: Make your boss read this.
Rogatien Soldier EVE University Ivy League 10	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:02:00 - [119] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Rogatien Soldier wrote: Can you try to do it justice in haiku?[ Devs court the carebears Destroy selves in the process Making the game worse Way to deliver. +1
Kreeia Dgore EntroPrelatial Industria 11	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:04:00 - [120] - Quote Yes, YES, please, vomit some more ideological propaganda! Now, seriously. If highsec carebearing kills nulls fun, i promise i will make more alts and turn them into carebears if in return you promise me you will keep posting stuff like this!
Minabunny School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 56	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:05:00 - [121] - Quote Seek psychological help for your game addiction.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 755	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:07:00 - [122] - Quote Minabunny wrote: Seek psychological help for your game addiction. Let him wipe out high sec first. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Thomas Kreshant Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:17:00 - [123] - Quote Well that's a lot of words and one day I may read them but not today I fear.
Sidus Sarmiang GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 168	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:26:00 - [124] - Quote James 315 makes some damn fine posts and some damn good points. Most importantly, a new and disturbingly accurate perspective on what's been a trend in this game for a long time. It's amazing how so many of the people trashing him are proving his points even better than he could.
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 717	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:27:00 - [125] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Reason for reporting this thread: Make your boss read this.
I Love Boobies All Hail Boobies 93	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:29:00 - [126] - Quote OP has a lot of time on his hands... and really should seek some counseling because he is taking internet spaceships WAY too serious. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs.
Richard Desturned GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 231	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:30:00 - [127] - Quote I Love Boobies wrote: OP has a lot of time on his hands... and really should seek some counseling because he is taking internet spaceships WAY too serious. yet you say nothing about what he's saying great going there meight eh
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 474	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:33:00 - [128] - Quote I admit, I never thought of it that way. Indeed, the greatest threat is the one that goes unchecked. Coming as this does right at the start (though early) of Burn Jita and the coming Hulkageddon events, there is the possibility for a very real turn around in the current trends in EVE. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 755	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:33:00 - [129] - Quote I Love Boobies wrote: OP has a lot of time on his hands... and really should seek some counseling because he is taking internet spaceships WAY too serious. Not really, it was an interesting read on a subject that comes up a lot. It was considerably more in depth than most forum posts, but its not longer than some gaming news articles have been in the past. Like it or not Eve is an interesting subject, hell people have written economic papers on the game's economy, it stands to reason that on occasion people should write essays on the design philosophies of it's creators. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 717	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:34:00 - [130] - Quote I Love Boobies wrote: OP has a lot of time on his hands... and really should seek some counseling because he is taking internet spaceships WAY too serious. So you don't actually have anything to contribute to the conversation other than "lol I'm a 13 year old who can't read?" Good to know, I guess.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 755	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:34:00 - [131] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: I admit, I never thought of it that way. Indeed, the greatest threat is the one that goes unchecked. Coming as this does right at the start (though early) of Burn Jita and the coming Hulkageddon events, there is the possibility for a very real turn around in the current trends in EVE. We can hope so. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Sverige Pahis Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation 1009	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:35:00 - [132] - Quote James a good alternative for catching logged off miners' pods is have your alt drop probes in the belt at the smallest size, position them around the belt, and fleet warp your ishtar on top of the logged off pod. It's aggressed and'll stay there for 15 minutes.
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 719	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:37:00 - [133] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: I admit, I never thought of it that way. Indeed, the greatest threat is the one that goes unchecked. Coming as this does right at the start (though early) of Burn Jita and the coming Hulkageddon events, there is the possibility for a very real turn around in the current trends in EVE. But there's a chance that CCP will completely screw up and decide to try to nerf ganking and non-consensual highsec PVP in response. That's why we have to remain vigilant against the AFK Botting Asshats that are ruining EVE. I do have to correct you however, Burn Jita hasn't started yet. We were just bored on a Thursday night. Really.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 476	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:38:00 - [134] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: I admit, I never thought of it that way. Indeed, the greatest threat is the one that goes unchecked. Coming as this does right at the start (though early) of Burn Jita and the coming Hulkageddon events, there is the possibility for a very real turn around in the current trends in EVE. We can hope so. It's always possible as long as the game exists. "Where there's life, there's hope" as they say. Of course, in EVE you can die and get into your clone, but you know what I mean. (Ever looked at your own frozen corpse? It's ... wierd). Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Ice Fist Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation 133	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:39:00 - [135] - Quote This is a thread. There is nothing more hilarious than watching a bunch of morons who feel that they should be able to sit untanked and afk in a highsec belt totally safe spew their vitriolic hate all over James for his opinion.
Valerius Kavees Pilipino Corp C0NVICTED 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:45:00 - [136] - Quote hmmmm amusingly this is too true... and also alot of care bears is bitter in this aspect... EvE is a game where you can do what you want to do. If you go carebearing we dont care... but don't expect concord can help you with wardec/suicide gank... you're just a useless ***** if you keep whinning... go whine on your mother not on CCP... this is not PvE game like wow... this is unadulterated, unrelenting PvP game... and everything in eve revolves on PVP... from logistics to mining.... they all revolve on pvp You want to go null sec? sure no problems... just make sure you know what you are doing... dont whine if you are ganked because of your stupidity in not looking in local channel... don't whine about titan can't be killed by sub caps... because they are not meant to... if you want to stop a titan... you throw in another titan to it... thats how null sec does it... thats how coalitions does it and thats how PL does it... seriously... titan was made to be 1 fleet ship... its just that the doomsday device that day causes too much lag that they need to tone it down... but it can still insta pop a carrier... pretty much yes... high sec miners does kill pvp...
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 769	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:51:00 - [137] - Quote So when can we expect James to take over at CCP? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Akrasjel Lanate Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 715	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:52:00 - [138] - Quote TL:DR such ******** wall of text without any content
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1262	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:54:00 - [139] - Quote James 315 wrote: The Mittani lobbied for the removal of alloy drops from the drone regions, thereby buffing nullsec ore. But will the highsec miners--the ones who spend all day begging for buffs to exhumers--relocate to nullsec as they should, or will they initiate a new series of demands for valuable ore to be placed in highsec? I guess we'll find out. Dear Mr. sock puppet: you previously complained that carebears were responsible for killing nullsec mining, then skip over the introduction of drone poo, only to mention it in passing as one of the issues you have been lobbying about for a long time. Please take note that miners were the first to complain, and the loudest to complain, and the group who have complained the longest. Drone poo completely trashed mining as a profession, to the point that the only people left mining are those too burned out from their day jobs to handle anything ingame more stressful than dragging ore or ice from cargo hold to jet can. The introduction of the orca was a boon for mining safety, though a pox for mining profitability. Please have a look at my ideas for changing mining: some include making mining "safer" but generally I wish to make mining require more thinking. I support the idea of more tightly segregating ores between sec statuses, in order to make lowsec mining valuable enough to warrant the security team that will be required for any commercially viable operation. Not all miners are carebears, not all carebears are miners. The largest group of single-topic carebears in the game right now are Titan pilots, who insist that their mobile fortresses remain practically invulnerable.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:54:00 - [140] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Id say tier three BCs with no tanks that have battleship guns. STFU if you didn't read the OP. I know it seems intimidating if you have the attention span of a humming bird on speed, but it's only going to take like 10 minutes even if you read slow.
XIRUSPHERE Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 256	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:54:00 - [141] - Quote It took 15 minutes to read, TLDR for a mouth breather perhaps. That being said, a proper synopses would be that risk aversion in a game about risk has been destroying EVE for years and CCP does little but enable it and would seem to be embracing it more than ever. The crux of the argument is that miners are the worst of this lot, and I wholly agree. There is simply no other entity more cut throat about making isk for no other reason than to make isk while ignoring the very principles the game was built upon all while wanting the game dumbed down to support their addiction and sense of entitlement. Thank you OP for being one of the few people on these forums who is actually capable of putting together so much articulated text that is both easy and a pleasure to read. My view? Absolutely nothing in this game should be able to be done AFK at all, from mining to missions and even to cloaking all day in a system for the lulz. The point of using server resources is to be at your computer engaged with the game. The point of playing the game is to interact with others even if what you are doing is ACTIVELY avoiding them. If that were ever seriously addressed to the point that you couldn't afford to go AFK for even a few minutes in any sec doing an activity you profited from it would do the game so much good. The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times. One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.
Sirhan Blixt GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:54:00 - [142] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Like it or not Eve is an interesting subject, hell people have written economic papers on the game's economy, it stands to reason that on occasion people should write essays on the design philosophies of it's creators. NO I DO NOT LIKE IT RAAAAAAR MUST RAGE ABOUT BIG WORDS I CAN'T READ NOW Seriously, kids: if you can't be arsed to do that much reading, you really don't belong on the internet.
Stirko Hek SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 6	Posted - 2012.04.27 06:59:00 - [143] - Quote I started playing EVE as a miner, end of 2008 when I lost my job. And it was fine for a bit, I made easy low risk ISK while I watched movies and did what unemployed people do when home alone. I moved cities looking for new work, and still mined away, hating the evil PVP types for daring to "ruin" my game. Then I got a job. Working full time in an office, going over large figures and charging them to other companies, endlessly doing the same keyboard/mouse interactions over and over. Quickly, mining became a chore. It wasn't time enjoyed, there was no entertainment from the act of mining, merely what I did outside of EVE while I mined. Soon after, I started a small corp with a handful of friends of mine, fitted up some cheap t1 frigates and took off to low/null. My first time out, I lasted two null sec gates before I got popped. We died horribly and got podded to a man. It was fun. It was the first time I'd actually got any kind of buzz or thrill from EVE. To enjoy something, to truly get any sense of thrill from doing something, you have to have a chance to fail, to lose. Going into a situation where you can't die/lose, where there is no risk, you already know the outcome and there is no real sense of accomplishment, no sense of victory or triumph. So, I'd ask those who still walk the path of mining in the comfort of the proverbial womb that is high sec two questions; Are you really playing aand enjoying this game, or merely going through the motions while watching ? Why do you do what do you? I'd also suggest to the die hard PVE/mining types to just get fit a Thrasher/t1 frig, fly around in low/null and take a risk for once. Personally, I've never looked back since.
Alhezhar Alabyd al-Mu'minin School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:00:00 - [144] - Quote I agree completely and I defy anyone who disagrees to do themselves a favor, take a few breaths and actually READ the ENTIRE series of POSTs before coming in here screaming one way or the other. You should know that nobody will respect what you have to say if you don't actually understand what you're talking about. Sensible and profoundly important, demonstrating a special rarified sort of wisdom that's relevant even outside of the EvE community upon which he comments. Brava, James! A grand success!
Schalac Apocalypse Reign 35	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:02:00 - [145] - Quote Boring...
Fractals 4Lyfe GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 74	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:05:00 - [146] - Quote Bravo, a post worthy of the god-king Endie himself. I agree completely with what you have said, and I caution other scammers like me that what CCP has done to highsec ganking, it seeks to do to scamming as well.
Janecomando Liandri Corporation 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:05:00 - [147] - Quote Goons are terrorists of eve first off. They kill off anything that doesn't benafit them. If your blue to them your mearly a pawn in play at the momment or scared as ** of them. If you have seen any of thier recuitment causes you would agree. give us all your or sell it to us out in nullsec for some blah blah... either way its a retained system they have out there and coming down to highsec to blow the out of hulks is only hleping them to fund like nuken jita or w/e. They try to take all your eve worldly possesions because at that point your back down to noob status and completely dependant on them so they look like the hero. But in all honesty its slavery one oh one. Them attacking the bots fine that helped eve and kicked ccp in the ass and got them moving on the bot issue (sorry russians lol). I've mined in all sec status in eve. Not a pro by any means, but I know this much. In eve as a noob who do you go to for a ship? The locals that supply you with your first cheap ship around thier "birth place" or the spot that all the skill books are. not null, so highsec miners are completly dependant on nullsec minerals or wh minerals either way two ways to get it. at no point do i see how highsec miners who don't pvp effect nullsec. miners mine the place ore is without resistance. so your pvp effects the miners in nullsec. I don't know one *** miner who would mine while a enemy fleet was near by. ofc there is a exception with gankers but all they do is profit off of hard earned isk threw ganking for no reason but goons used you as pawn so they could sell more ships. I mean really are you all retards who don't get it. Greifing only helps the people who sponsore the ganking why would they pay you so much dam isk per gank. because it benafits them in some way. anyone ganking miners are all goons bitches you all are slaves for the bigger picture. But don't looks for ccp to do anything about this bc goons does nothing but encourage more players sinking plex's into eve. so this act will never be banned. all it says is oh I like being goons * and like shooting that won't shoot me back. so yall are really the ultimate carebears complaining over the justifications of killing miners and the only way it effects nullsec is pilots jumpclone down to do some stupid ** and goons get more isk off hulk and destroyer production. w/e this is my rant and i don't see how miners in highsec will ever be pvpers in null. the pvper that is sponserd by the highsec miner might move the miner out to null with him bc he has a eye on the situation but in the end its a logistical nightmare with trust issues and the limitations of the layout of your sov and what the stations offer at entry level. highsec doesn't care and i only have one question for goons and test. Are you mad bro with that you can't control?
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 1434	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:08:00 - [148] - Quote Posting in a goon alt thread
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1262	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:12:00 - [149] - Quote James 315 wrote: [walking in stations] was the triumph of the carebear. By catering solely to the highsec crowd, CCP thought their subscriptions and profits would skyrocket. EVE would become the next WoW, a cash cow beyond their wildest dreams. By transitioning EVE away from that whole PvP thing, they would finally find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. See, there you go misattributing motivations again. Team Awesome was focussed on pushing WiS as a way of appealing to the masses of trials who never converted to subscribers due to the lack of appeal of always being a space ship. This was not the hisec crowd that CCP was appealing to, it was people who never subscribed after trialling the game. Sockpuppet of Mittani's Ego wrote: The Mittani and the Goons saved EVE, but only for a time. The carebears who pushed for Incarna are still among us, and they are still demanding an end to PvP. Unlike BoB, the cancer of carebearism was not removed; it only went into remission. The threat remains. The people who want WiS are not all carebears. Not all carebears want WiS. One of the reasons your 18 post rant comes off looking so poorly thought out and disconnected is that you conflate these two issues. You conflate all the play styles that you don't like into one mass and label that mass "carebears" regardless of whether that player participates on PvP outside the structure bashing confines of nullsec. What really killed PvP in nullsec was hot drops, cap & supercap proliferation, the focus on structure bashing, the endless NAP/NIPs and the focus of alliance leadership on moon mining as an income stream. Real PvP is still alive, you must have to enter w-space to find it. Of course that means leaving behind the safety of Titan bridges and supercarrier logistics support, along with the perfect intel of Local chat, what really killed nullsec PvP was mudflation: the progressive growth of equipment level that inevitably lead to the situation of a few dozen p,ayers being able to shut any small alliance put of nullsec permanently. What really threatens the future of the game is players who insist that their play style is the only legitimate playstyle in the game, players who think that EVE has an "endgame" and players who view any progress in playstyles that are not theirs as the death of their playstyle.
Alhezhar Alabyd al-Mu'minin School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 6	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:15:00 - [150] - Quote Janecomando wrote: Goons are terrorists of eve first off. They kill off anything that doesn't benafit them. If your blue to them your mearly a pawn in play at the momment or scared as ** of them. If you have seen any of thier recuitment causes you would agree. give us all your or sell it to us out in nullsec for some blah blah... either way its a retained system they have out there and coming down to highsec to blow the out of hulks is only hleping them to fund like nuken jita or w/e. They try to take all your eve worldly possesions because at that point your back down to noob status and completely dependant on them so they look like the hero. But in all honesty its slavery one oh one. Them attacking the bots fine that helped eve and kicked ccp in the ass and got them moving on the bot issue (sorry russians lol). I've mined in all sec status in eve. Not a pro by any means, but I know this much. In eve as a noob who do you go to for a ship? The locals that supply you with your first cheap ship around thier "birth place" or the spot that all the skill books are. not null, so highsec miners are completly dependant on nullsec minerals or wh minerals either way two ways to get it. at no point do i see how highsec miners who don't pvp effect nullsec. miners mine the place ore is without resistance. so your pvp effects the miners in nullsec. I don't know one *** miner who would mine while a enemy fleet was near by. ofc there is a exception with gankers but all they do is profit off of hard earned isk threw ganking for no reason but goons used you as pawn so they could sell more ships. I mean really are you all retards who don't get it. Greifing only helps the people who sponsore the ganking why would they pay you so much dam isk per gank. because it benafits them in some way. anyone ganking miners are all goons bitches you all are slaves for the bigger picture. But don't looks for ccp to do anything about this bc goons does nothing but encourage more players sinking plex's into eve. so this act will never be banned. all it says is oh I like being goons * and like shooting that won't shoot me back. so yall are really the ultimate carebears complaining over the justifications of killing miners and the only way it effects nullsec is pilots jumpclone down to do some stupid and goons get more isk off hulk and destroyer production. w/e this is my rant and i don't see how miners in highsec will ever be pvpers in null. the pvper that is sponserd by the highsec miner might move the miner out to null with him bc he has a eye on the situation but in the end its a logistical nightmare with trust issues and the limitations of the layout of your sov and what the stations offer at entry level. highsec doesn't care and i only have one question for goons and test. Are you mad bro with that you can't control? Now, I find Grammar ** attacks to be generally ad hominem and thus typically dismissable, but I'm afraid that in a case as egregious as this, I'm going to have to offer up your complete lack of any structure or rule as evidence of your muddle thinking, further confounded by the fact that none of what you have written here makes any sense at all.
Sidus Sarmiang GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 173	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:21:00 - [151] - Quote Janecomando wrote: Goons are terrorists of eve first off. They kill off anything that doesn't benafit them. If your blue to them your mearly a pawn in play at the momment or scared as ** of them. If you have seen any of thier recuitment causes you would agree. give us all your or sell it to us out in nullsec for some blah blah... either way its a retained system they have out there and coming down to highsec to blow the out of hulks is only hleping them to fund like nuken jita or w/e. They try to take all your eve worldly possesions because at that point your back down to noob status and completely dependant on them so they look like the hero. But in all honesty its slavery one oh one. Them attacking the bots fine that helped eve and kicked ccp in the ass and got them moving on the bot issue (sorry russians lol). I've mined in all sec status in eve. Not a pro by any means, but I know this much. In eve as a noob who do you go to for a ship? The locals that supply you with your first cheap ship around thier "birth place" or the spot that all the skill books are. not null, so highsec miners are completly dependant on nullsec minerals or wh minerals either way two ways to get it. at no point do i see how highsec miners who don't pvp effect nullsec. miners mine the place ore is without resistance. so your pvp effects the miners in nullsec. I don't know one *** miner who would mine while a enemy fleet was near by. ofc there is a exception with gankers but all they do is profit off of hard earned isk threw ganking for no reason but goons used you as pawn so they could sell more ships. I mean really are you all retards who don't get it. Greifing only helps the people who sponsore the ganking why would they pay you so much dam isk per gank. because it benafits them in some way. anyone ganking miners are all goons bitches you all are slaves for the bigger picture. But don't looks for ccp to do anything about this bc goons does nothing but encourage more players sinking plex's into eve. so this act will never be banned. all it says is oh I like being goons * and like shooting that won't shoot me back. so yall are really the ultimate carebears complaining over the justifications of killing miners and the only way it effects nullsec is pilots jumpclone down to do some stupid ** and goons get more isk off hulk and destroyer production. w/e this is my rant and i don't see how miners in highsec will ever be pvpers in null. the pvper that is sponserd by the highsec miner might move the miner out to null with him bc he has a eye on the situation but in the end its a logistical nightmare with trust issues and the limitations of the layout of your sov and what the stations offer at entry level. highsec doesn't care and i only have one question for goons and test. Are you mad bro with that you can't control? Good god... I have seen the enemy, and the enemy is really, really dumb.
Dbars Grinding Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 482	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:22:00 - [152] - Quote half the carebears in highsec are alts of lowsec, nullsec and wh sec players. My main lives in lowsec. This one and 3 others are in high all the time. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. I have more space likes than you.-á
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1262	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:23:00 - [153] - Quote James 315 wrote: [list] In multiple instances, CCP has sped up CONCORD response time, giving suicide gankers less time to kill their targets and requiring them to use more and more firepower. In response to the infamous jihadswarm attacks on miners, CCP buffed CONCORD and greatly increased the penalties to security status for gankers. This was intended to force gankers to either spend a lot more time grinding security status, or quit the practice. On at least one occasion, CCP granted an across-the-board buff to hitpoints on all ships, for the purpose of "increasing the length of fights." This measure did little to affect ordinary combat but increased the difficulty of killing miners before CONCORD's arrival. And yet it is still easy for a -10 to gank a Hulk in hisec with a single destroyer. I am not seeing any indication here that hisec PvP is threatened, Sockpuppet wrote: And the insurance nerf, of course. Just a few months ago, the miners were telling everyone who would listen that it was the end of suicide ganking. I heard it directly from miners in local who gloated about the new present they were being given. I mocked the miners' arrogance in the first manifesto for that very reason. They predicted total safety for carebears, and I predicted more ganking. I was right. But what happened next? Because gankings still occurred, carebears begged CCP for "one more nerf," to eliminate boomerang gankers. The intent of CONCORD is to punish the perpetrator for committing a crime. It was intended that there should be no way to evade CONCORD. It was the gankers over-exploiting a mechanic to evade CONCORD that led to this nerf, Sockpuppet wrote: Were the highsec miners satisfied with the elimination of boomerang gankers? No. Within days after boomeranging was declared an exploit, the carebears were back at it, begging for hitpoint buffs to their exhumers. The call for buffs to Hulks has been going for many years longer than you indicate, and has not generally been in response to suicide ganks, but in response to perceived imbalance between Hulks and other T2 ships of similar size. Every miner knows that the way to avoid suicide ganking is to not be where the gankers are.
Arcan Winter Hedion University Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:24:00 - [154] - Quote Not sure if OP or the highsec carebears cry most, but im keen to believe its the former.
Xander Riggs EVE University Ivy League 168	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:25:00 - [155] - Quote Well said. I play Eve because of the piracy, the intrigue, and the wars. I won't cry crocodile tears to CCP when my number's up. "A man with a drone-boat has nothing but time on his hands."
Valerius Kavees Pilipino Corp C0NVICTED 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:26:00 - [156] - Quote Janecomando wrote: Goons are terrorists of eve first off. They kill off anything that doesn't benafit them. If your blue to them your mearly a pawn in play at the momment or scared as ** of them. If you have seen any of thier recuitment causes you would agree. give us all your or sell it to us out in nullsec for some blah blah... either way its a retained system they have out there and coming down to highsec to blow the out of hulks is only hleping them to fund like nuken jita or w/e. They try to take all your eve worldly possesions because at that point your back down to noob status and completely dependant on them so they look like the hero. But in all honesty its slavery one oh one. Them attacking the bots fine that helped eve and kicked ccp in the ass and got them moving on the bot issue (sorry russians lol). I've mined in all sec status in eve. Not a pro by any means, but I know this much. In eve as a noob who do you go to for a ship? The locals that supply you with your first cheap ship around thier "birth place" or the spot that all the skill books are. not null, so highsec miners are completly dependant on nullsec minerals or wh minerals either way two ways to get it. at no point do i see how highsec miners who don't pvp effect nullsec. miners mine the place ore is without resistance. so your pvp effects the miners in nullsec. I don't know one *** miner who would mine while a enemy fleet was near by. ofc there is a exception with gankers but all they do is profit off of hard earned isk threw ganking for no reason but goons used you as pawn so they could sell more ships. I mean really are you all retards who don't get it. Greifing only helps the people who sponsore the ganking why would they pay you so much dam isk per gank. because it benafits them in some way. anyone ganking miners are all goons bitches you all are slaves for the bigger picture. But don't looks for ccp to do anything about this bc goons does nothing but encourage more players sinking plex's into eve. so this act will never be banned. all it says is oh I like being goons * and like shooting that won't shoot me back. so yall are really the ultimate carebears complaining over the justifications of killing miners and the only way it effects nullsec is pilots jumpclone down to do some stupid ** and goons get more isk off hulk and destroyer production. w/e this is my rant and i don't see how miners in highsec will ever be pvpers in null. the pvper that is sponserd by the highsec miner might move the miner out to null with him bc he has a eye on the situation but in the end its a logistical nightmare with trust issues and the limitations of the layout of your sov and what the stations offer at entry level. highsec doesn't care and i only have one question for goons and test. Are you mad bro with that you can't control? oh look a griefer... sorry to say to you but CCP will not be carebearing you anymore... there are no rules not ganking in hi-sec isn't it? sorry to say to you that mittani got the whole thing planned.... and you won't be able to do anything about it... because you're just a griefer... if you want a change then evolve! evolve from a griefer into revolutionist! bring change! don't whine... because what written here is the cold hard truth! and all of the care bears are just whinners... really... they just whine and whine and wait... they don't do things themselves... that is the another reason why goons and friends decked jita... so that you all will whine and goons will win in the end... what they spend in burn jita is just ISK, and ISK can be EARNED, but the prolonged effects of burn jita to griefers like you will be much more than what you think...
Igitur Agnus Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:27:00 - [157] - Quote Haven't had this much laugh since I read the Communist Manifesto for the first time.
Lyrka Bloodberry Spybeaver 72	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:30:00 - [158] - Quote I don't want to live on this planet anymore... Spybeaver
Promiscuous Female GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 97	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:32:00 - [159] - Quote That bit about the ishtar sounds really, really fun. Like, even more fun than smartbombing clumps of Mackinaws. Care to share your Ishtar fit?
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:33:00 - [160] - Quote Starting to get a little annoyed with the OP for forcing me to give likes to goon posts. It just goes to show what an awesome thread this is that it can even make idiots like them make good posts. Lyrka Bloodberry wrote: I don't want to live on this planet anymore... I haven't wanted to since I was about 6 years old. 2012 has significantly less death rays, hover cars and mars colonies than I expected.
Jiggle Physics GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 8	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:33:00 - [161] - Quote Fantastic post OP, its truth is attested by the immediate poorly-spelled whinging of NPC corp posters gnashing their teeth and dismissively engaging in hand-flapping on the very second page~
Andreus Ixiris Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach 809	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:34:00 - [162] - Quote Too long, didn't read most of it. What I did read was hysterical garbage. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor Animated Corporate Logos
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1263	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:36:00 - [163] - Quote James 315 wrote: Evading wardecs has become part of the popular culture among highsec miners today. It is amusing that avoiding CONCORD is, to you, a clever tactic, while avoiding wardecs is, to you, an exploit. James 315 wrote: I soon discovered the real reason why many of these miners chose to continue mining, defenseless, during an active wardec. They used bots and/or proximity alerts that enabled them to immediately warp back to a station if a war target entered local. At first, I was puzzled by their ability to react so quickly. I was able to eliminate the possibility they were using watchlists--my main joined the warring corp shortly before entering the system. Nor were they scouting the gates, since there were usually multiple gates, no one present at them, and/or all of their corp members accounted for in the belt during the initial scouting. And it couldn't have been that they were merely monitoring local for people with the war target tag, since the systems often had as many as 100-200 pilots. So a miner who mines while semi-AFK should be paying more attention: but paying more attention means that they are a bot? I understand. That is the kind of rhetoric we see frequently from people wanting to rationalize their suicide ganking as a service to the people of New Eden.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:36:00 - [164] - Quote I skipped truckloads of OP drivel to focus on this: James 315 wrote: They may have spent years logged in, but did they ever experience anything? The first time the game evoked a genuine human emotion from the miner is when he saw me kill his ship. When he was spending his years carting around ore, it was not EVE--it was a joke. When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. He would say it was an act of griefing. I would call it a masterpiece. He should be, if not grateful for being killed, at least appreciative of the art. And what about the carebear's vision? What do carebears want to do in their fantasy EVE, a sterilized PvE game? For the most part, nothing. Who the fu*ck are you to decide how others are meant to play or how good has to be their experience in EvE? Leave to CCP to mediate between the differing requests. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Macky Alcaz Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:37:00 - [165] - Quote I think I actually came a bit after reading OPs compendium. ITT: Raging carebears replying to OP without actually reading the whole* thing.* Carebears ITT
Xander Riggs EVE University Ivy League 168	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:38:00 - [166] - Quote I've noticed that most of the jibbering posters who are mad about OP's point begin with: "I didn't read it all, but..." I'm not thinking this is a coincidence. "A man with a drone-boat has nothing but time on his hands."
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:38:00 - [167] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: James 315 wrote: Evading wardecs has become part of the popular culture among highsec miners today. It is amusing that avoiding CONCORD is, to you, a clever tactic, while avoiding wardecs is, to you, an exploit. James 315 wrote: I soon discovered the real reason why many of these miners chose to continue mining, defenseless, during an active wardec. They used bots and/or proximity alerts that enabled them to immediately warp back to a station if a war target entered local. At first, I was puzzled by their ability to react so quickly. I was able to eliminate the possibility they were using watchlists--my main joined the warring corp shortly before entering the system. Nor were they scouting the gates, since there were usually multiple gates, no one present at them, and/or all of their corp members accounted for in the belt during the initial scouting. And it couldn't have been that they were merely monitoring local for people with the war target tag, since the systems often had as many as 100-200 pilots. So a miner who mines while semi-AFK should be paying more attention: but paying more attention means that they are a bot? I understand. That is the kind of rhetoric we see frequently from people wanting to rationalize their suicide ganking as a service to the people of New Eden. No, reacting instantly to someone's presence in local with 200 people in the system makes them a bot.
Valerius Kavees Pilipino Corp C0NVICTED 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:39:00 - [168] - Quote Promiscuous Female wrote: That bit about the ishtar sounds really, really fun. Like, even more fun than smartbombing clumps of Mackinaws. Care to share your Ishtar fit? i second the motion share your ishtar fit
Heathkit Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 74	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:41:00 - [169] - Quote That's an awful lot of :words: about internet spaceships. Sometimes I feel like I missed out on Eve. I played for a while a couple years ago, when nullsec mining was fully dead and PVP was largely organized around endless POS shooting. After the war I got bored and unsubbed, and hearing the mess over Incarna made me glad to be out. I came back for the ice interdiction and crucible. The ice interdiction is the perfect example of what makes eve special - players organizing large scale market manipulation based on PvP. It's sad that's such a rare thing - I always imagined Eve would be the kind of game where industrialists hire mercenaries to blockade the competition, but instead it's infested with people who just want to build up a massive cache of ships without interacting with anyone. If you want fancy ships with no risk, go play on SiSi. Whatever game that was that "James 315" played back in 2006, it must have been really special to inspire such passion. I hope I see that game again someday.
Stirko Hek SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:43:00 - [170] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: James 315 wrote: Evading wardecs has become part of the popular culture among highsec miners today. It is amusing that avoiding CONCORD is, to you, a clever tactic, while avoiding wardecs is, to you, an exploit. It's also amusing to note that you can no longer warp away from CONCORD, but you can still avoid a wardec just as easily as before.
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 895	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:45:00 - [171] - Quote Spaceships was, is and will continue to be...SRS BIZNESS....
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:49:00 - [172] - Quote Heathkit wrote: I always imagined Eve would be the kind of game where industrialists hire mercenaries to blockade the competition, but instead it's infested with people who just want to build up a massive cache of ships without interacting with anyone. My mining corp in beta found a nice dead end system without much traffic and a pirate corp living in it. We made them free stuff for not killing us and their presence kept people away from our asteroids when we weren't online (back when they actually ran out and didn't respawn for a week). That's kinda the same thing I guess?
Anton Menges Saddat EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:55:00 - [173] - Quote this man is both a gentleman and a scholar
Alhezhar Alabyd al-Mu'minin School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:57:00 - [174] - Quote Igitur Agnus wrote: Haven't had this much laugh since I read the Communist Manifesto for the first time. The Communist Manifesto is a very dull, discursive piece of literature, though? And I don't think James would be very insulted if you told him you didn't think his writing was funny enough as that was hardly the intention. Or are you trying to have an in-joke with people who don't know what you're talking about?
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 07:59:00 - [175] - Quote Heathkit wrote: Whatever game that was that "James 315" played back in 2006, it must have been really special to inspire such passion. I hope I see that game again someday. Too bad what he says is just a fraction of the truth, the part that proves his points. 0.0 became crap because of all other factors. Drone regions and their insane economy screwup. Introduction of ships able to make the old 0.0 logistics convoys obsolete. When you kill logistic convoys you kill a lot of collateral content. Insanely easy force-projection made it pointless to have to invest a ton into creating and staying in a certain place. Original hi sec L4s drained ISK making out of 0.0. Miners did not play any role in this, they were naturally driven out of 0.0 because it was just so much better to bot-gun mine with no risk. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Sverige Pahis Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation 1016	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:00:00 - [176] - Quote Mara Rinn can you read it all and keep all the sperg to one reply instead of spacing it out as you read it thank you in advance
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1263	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:00:00 - [177] - Quote Stirko Hek wrote: It's also amusing to note that you can no longer warp away from CONCORD, but you can still avoid a wardec just as easily as before. It is amusing to see people who do everything they can to avoid losses complaining when they suffer losses. When you exploit a game mechanic to inflict losses in defiance of a game mechanic designed to control the level of loss you inflict, you should be expecting that exploit to get nerfed. While CCP is trying to maintain a PvP focussed game, the rules of the game also include making hisec "safer". Getting one freighter kill with a tornado is great. Getting in on half a dozen because you can evade CONCORD isn't quite what CCP intended. The nerfs are happening because CCP has some idea about what level of loss is acceptable. Yes, hisec is only "safer" not "safe". There are mechanisms allowing gankers to ply their trade in hisec. If CCP wanted absolute safety, they would simply prevent the use of weapons against player targets in hisec, they haven't done that. So you have to think for yourself: why have they "nerfed" ganking so much? The answer is that the carebears who do the ganking are constantly finding new ways to minimize their losses. So CCP has to patch that hole. As for wardecs and war evasion: CCP wants to find a mechanism which will prevent griefers from serial-wardeccing a corp. Any such mechanism will necessarily allow PvP-averse players to avoid wardecs, which is an acceptable contingency. As a serious PvPer, you know that you have the option to simply suicide gank the target. Complaining about targets evading wardecs is basically saying, "I can't be arsed to suicide gank the target, because I am averse to losing the ships I necessarily must destroy to perform that attack." You are the carebear. The new wardec system changes nothing. Griefers will still grief and continue to wage war against industrial corps, holing up in a station the moment any resistance is encountered. I don't know why CCP Greyscale is trying to fix it when it's necessarily broken.
Dheeradj Nurgle Misfit Syndicate Warden. 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:01:00 - [178] - Quote I agree with OP. When I started playing, I was a Miner. When I loaded my first kill, I never looked back at my Hulk. Stop the destruction of Eve, BURN JITA
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:02:00 - [179] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Heathkit wrote: Whatever game that was that "James 315" played back in 2006, it must have been really special to inspire such passion. I hope I see that game again someday. Too bad what he says is just a fraction of the truth, the part that proves his points. 0.0 became crap because of all other factors. Drone regions and their insane economy screwup. Introduction of ships able to make the old 0.0 logistics convoys obsolete. When you kill logistic convoys you kill a lot of collateral content. Insanely easy force-projection made it pointless to have to invest a ton into creating and staying in a certain place. Original hi sec L4s drained ISK making out of 0.0. Miners did not play any role in this, they were naturally driven out of 0.0 because it was just so much better to bot-gun mine with no risk. And I've been complaining about jump freighters, jump bridges and anything else with jump in the name just as much as I have about carebears.
FeralShadow Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 96	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:03:00 - [180] - Quote Jiggle Physics wrote: Fantastic post OP, its truth is attested by the immediate poorly-spelled whinging of NPC corp posters gnashing their teeth and dismissively engaging in hand-flapping on the very second page~ Haha yes. Additionally for those who REALLY don't have reading comprehension trained, James is talking about the mining CULTURE that has developed in this game that goes opposite to what EVE was always meant to be. The mining culture wants to change highsec to be completely safe, as well as accomplish everything else that was mentioned. Even the worst forum poster can chat miners up for an hour and figure out that's what they want. It didn't used to be this way, sadly. "I do believe in karma. -áThat means that whenever I do something sh**y to others, they somehow deserved it."
Miquela Valheru Empire Science and Production Agency V3SPA Community 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:04:00 - [181] - Quote brilliant, not completely true but brilliant. and kudos for finding out how to kill them.
Ines Fy Heroes of the Past Goonswarm Federation 36	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:04:00 - [182] - Quote OP has a point, so lets prove it by killing all miners and see what happens
Bromothymol Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:05:00 - [183] - Quote James 315 wrote: Some words that are not words, but truths. This man is the most beautiful man.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:06:00 - [184] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: It is amusing to see people who do everything they can to avoid losses complaining when they suffer losses. When you exploit a game mechanic to inflict losses in defiance of a game mechanic designed to control the level of loss you inflict, you should be expecting that exploit to get nerfed. You have it backwards. Carebears do everything they can to avoid losses. Suicide gankers have a profession that by definition makes them lose ships constantly.
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:07:00 - [185] - Quote I read it all, as should most people. First of, when a player who has been playing the game for years longer than you tells you something, it might be a good time to at least take the time to read it. While it's grim, unpleasant, and sobering to read, it is unfortunately at least 90% true. He doesn't have it entirely correct, but it's correct in more than enough places to not change the overall outcome. Eve is: Living And Dying In Space If you cannot accept this core fact, you simply should play another game. All previous space sim games like EVE also had this core belief all the way back to Elite, the very first game of this kind. Space is dark, grim, foreboding, and it should be a dangerous place full of unknowns. If that scares you, get some shields, grab a gun, and maybe a friend or two. Unfortunately... CCP wants to cater to players who think all online games are essentially chat-rooms with stuff to do in the background. Kongregate in space, essentially. Pay your monthly fee for an online chat room. Because that's all my son plays. And all his friends play. Games like that. This is based upon over twenty years of online game playing and seeing many, many games come and go. CCP's direction is clear and likely won't change unless we unfortunately do much more than even he suggests. We simply won't affect the end decisions of CCP's directors and MBAs and programmers. They are humorless, soulless middle-aged men who are in it for the money and their careers. Their agendas are entirely different than the players'. It's always been this way in gaming companies and always will be. So what does this mean for the players? If you watch the video on security from the fanfest, one phrase was repeated three times by the head of the department who is in charge of all of this. What was this? "Death beams". As in "instant death" by Concord. It's in the video - watch it and the context in which he talks about it. He's telling it to the people as if it's something what's in the works that he's not supposed to be leaking but is just to them. HE seems to like the idea and he's the guy in charge at CCP of in-game security. He said it three times and its absolutely clear that we cannot win nor will we change CCP's mind on turning high sec into a separate non-combat server, in essence. And that's the goal - High is like a normal WoW or Everquest server and 0.0 is like a PVP server. With a tiny strand of low to serve as a zone between them, so the two "servers' act as one giant one. Sony is also certainly pressuring CCP on this as they absolutely never allow PVP and non PVP players in the same servers. And they have even less humor. To Sony, it's deadly serious business. **** So what is the solution? I've been mulling this over for years in the back of my head as I've see the cancer grow. Something is dreadfully wrong with EVE and yet it goes beyond miners and all of that. It's the idea that you can get something for no risk. This is a space simulation game, after all. This affects high sec AND low sec. Both are entirely too passive and make isk too easily. In essence, all of the shiny objects in eve are easy to grasp and there's little risk. No need to go outside of either area. This causes the cancer - it's a stagnation where you have two equally dysfunctional communities side by side by never really interacting. Because you now have two entirely different player bases on the same game (and with Dust, a third!). What needs to happen is obvious. The best money and missions and rewards in eve need to be squarely in low sec where they force the two player bases to interact. Do it not with penalties but with real incentives - and let the players work it out, sandbox-style. Basically what I propose is that all ores above veld and similar "basic" ores be the only thing you find in most of high AND 0.0. All of the rest is moved to low, with the ABC ores moved to 0.4. Incursions would only have the 1.0 multiplier in low. Not 0.0. Level 4 missions would force you to go into low almost always. Level 5 would be based in low (not 0). Most of the wormhole entrances would be in low. And so on. There has to be risk for the rewards. You can mine or live your life like normal in high or low. Fine. I get it - I really do. But the best items and isk has to be nearby but just out of reach. It has to be at least a little bit dangerous to get rich. This would force high and 0.0 corps to fight over the resources in low and entice miners to low as it's just that ONE jump away... Pirates and bounty hunters would also get in on the action. Most of EVE would stay the same in high and low, and a good life could be had for either group of players. But the stagnation would be gone as you'd have to work and take risks to do more than idle through the month. And it won't break the game to do so. We won't be seeing thousands of ships being blown up in a massive venting of rage that serves no real purpose. Yes, people are angry. But since we can't change CCP we can at least maybe get them to change the location of the best rewards and loot.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:09:00 - [186] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: And I've been complaining about jump freighters, jump bridges and anything else with jump in the name just as much as I have about carebears. Imo hi sec is the worst feature ever. Other PvP games don't have this crap. Cynos, bridges etc. are just garbage to avoid PVP and killed one of the main factors of risk in low and 0.0 sec. Hi sec is garbage to avoid PvP. Wardecs are garbage because they add on the garbage which is hi sec. Suicide ganks are still garbage because they are another patch to hi sec. In particular, hi sec introduced risk averse victims but also risk averse PvPers. I am sure that if they removed hi sec, then the risk averse PvPers would stay permadocked and cry as much as their targets. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:13:00 - [187] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: [quote=Stirko Hek]Any such mechanism will necessarily allow PvP-averse players to avoid wardecs, which is an acceptable contingency. An acceptable contingency for me to poop on.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1263	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:15:00 - [188] - Quote James 315 wrote: What is the alternative? Nullsec alliances, when someone enters your territory and attempts to take everything away from you, what is your response? Do you not defend yourselves? Do you not fight back? If possible, do you not kill them so they won't try it again? No, what happens is a NAP, which will eventually be reset when one side gets bored of sucking on moon goo by the side of the ISK fountain, Nullsec politics, drone poo, structure bashing, supercap proliferation, abuse of CONCORD avoidance and the desire of elite PvPers to avoid loss are what killed PvP. If you are so convinced that CCP is changing the game due to the petitions of the carebears, perhaps you should play that game too: advocate for the revocation of the Unholy Rage buff to hisec ore spawns. Advocate for the transfer of all interesting ores to grav sites. Advocate for the tighter banding of ores to security status. Change the game out from under the carebears. They got rich and lazy because CCP wasn't watching just how much these people have exploited the loopholes. I myself experienced some rage at the nerf to orcas in the last patch. I had become so used to the idea that I could invite anyone to my operations and they could take part as equals, that the inability for non-corp members to access the corporate hangars came as a complete surprise. What a shameful carebear I have become. I should know better than to invite people outside my corp to participate in the social activity of mining.
FastJack316 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:19:00 - [189] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Cynos, bridges etc. are just garbage to avoid PVP and killed one of the main factors of risk in low and 0.0 sec. Cynos and titanbridges are a huge source of risk in 0.0, though. It's a hell of a lot harder to be immune to the risk of a hotdrop than putting a scout in neighboring systems. And if it wasn't for titanbridges and jump bridge networks we couldn't go roaming in Cobalt Edge halfway across eve while drunk and Deklein couldn't play host to roaming gangs from everywhere all the time. There isn't enough stuff or people in 0.0 to justify 'expanding' it by increasing travel time and even if you could you'd be removing conflict generators in doing so.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:19:00 - [190] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: And I've been complaining about jump freighters, jump bridges and anything else with jump in the name just as much as I have about carebears. Imo hi sec is the worst feature ever. Other PvP games don't have this crap. Cynos, bridges etc. are just garbage to avoid PVP and killed one of the main factors of risk in low and 0.0 sec. Hi sec is garbage to avoid PvP. Wardecs are garbage because they add on the garbage which is hi sec. Suicide ganks are still garbage because they are another patch to hi sec. In particular, hi sec introduced risk averse victims but also risk averse PvPers. I am sure that if they removed hi sec, then the risk averse PvPers would stay permadocked and cry as much as their targets. I agree. My favorite MMO was Shadowbane. No more safe zone after the low levels. That's what high sec should be. Something to protect you while you learn the controls and stuff like that. You should have to leave after you're not a newbie anymore.
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:20:00 - [191] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: And I've been complaining about jump freighters, jump bridges and anything else with jump in the name just as much as I have about carebears. Imo hi sec is the worst feature ever. Other PvP games don't have this crap. I agree. But... unfortunately CCP has made it clear that the direction that they are going in is the way IT WILL BE. CCP is all about the money and careers and on on - it's a multi-million dollar corporation Unless we are pragmatic and start to speak their same language, we'll never get though to them. We need to get CCP to change the risk/reward dynamic to be more honest and not to cater to either 0.0 or high. It's really the only solution that we have left since CCP simply won't do a 180 on their current path.
Razgriz Shaishi Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:22:00 - [192] - Quote Read all of it, and I must say, I am amazed by the depths of your obsession. You have reached a new, never before seen level of obsession on the internet, and that is quite a feat. Now please register for residence in the nearest insane asylum.
Valerius Kavees Pilipino Corp C0NVICTED 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:26:00 - [193] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Cynos, bridges etc. are just garbage to avoid PVP and killed one of the main factors of risk in low and 0.0 sec. Cyno and JB are garbage?? please... Cyno and JBs are logistical structures! they are used for faster deployment of forces through out strategical vantage systems! and you say it killed one of the main factors of PVP?? IT IMPROVED PVP MORE! by telling this you are saying that there shouldn't be capital ships to begin with...
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:27:00 - [194] - Quote FastJack316 wrote: Cynos and titanbridges are a huge source of risk in 0.0, though. It's a hell of a lot harder to be immune to the risk of a hotdrop than putting a scout in neighboring systems. They allow you to 100% safely bypass gate camps. Hotdrops are yet more risk avoidance by people who can't handle engaging unless they can jump it about 5000% more backup than needed. FastJack316 wrote: And if it wasn't for titanbridges and jump bridge networks we couldn't go roaming in Cobalt Edge halfway across eve while drunk and Deklein couldn't play host to roaming gangs from everywhere all the time. There isn't enough stuff or people in 0.0 to justify 'expanding' it by increasing travel time and even if you could you'd be removing conflict generators in doing so. They allow you to blob up your entire massive alliance almost instantly. I shouldn't even have to explain why that's a bad thing, but I'll give you a hint anyway. Notice how 0.0 is dominated by a few massive alliances now? It didn't used to be. It used to have more smaller groups. Cause, you know, they could come and take some space without a 1000 man instablob teleporting in.
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:31:00 - [195] - Quote Razgriz Shaishi wrote: Read all of it, and I must say, I am amazed by the depths of your obsession. You have reached a new, never before seen level of obsession on the internet, and that is quite a feat. Now please register for residence in the nearest insane asylum. So says someone with barely a year experience playing EVE. Unfortunately, most of you simply aren't old enough to have the perspective in this game like this man has, and so therefore are not really qualified to pass judgment on him.
Valerius Kavees Pilipino Corp C0NVICTED 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:33:00 - [196] - Quote Razgriz Shaishi wrote: Read all of it, and I must say, I am amazed by the depths of your obsession. You have reached a new, never before seen level of obsession on the internet, and that is quite a feat. Now please register for residence in the nearest insane asylum. one doesn't simply say that without experience...
Kitfox Mikakka GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:35:00 - [197] - Quote Whole lotta people in here who are mad. Mad about James 315 posts, despite them being goodposts.
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery 1081	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:36:00 - [198] - Quote OP needs a girl avatar so my sexuality can deal better with how much I want to hug him. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
FastJack316 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:40:00 - [199] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Notice how 0.0 is dominated by a few massive alliances now? It didn't used to be. It used to have more smaller groups. Cause, you know, they could come and take some space without a 1000 man instablob teleporting in. When I first joined EVE in 2007, five years ago, 0.0 was dominated by a handful of ***** enormous coalitions, so if you're appealing to some glorious pre-cyno balkanized nullsec I actually have no idea what it may have been like. Even without titanbridges we still blobbed the ** out of everything possible all the time, we just spent ten times as long travelling to the fight and we'd hope the node didn't crash. e: somehow I suspect that having an even smaller population density than 2007 it was mostly uninhabited
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 3	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:43:00 - [200] - Quote note - for the record, if I had my way, Jita would go nova, concord would cease to exist, warp to 0 wold go away, and evey last bot miner and afk miner would get podded. But it won't change CCP's goals or directions. Raging at the miners might work temporarily (until the next nerf), but the real goal needs to be that CCP has to make it so that the miners must do something to get their isk. Moving their best income to where they must engage with normal players and compete for it is not only fair but is also the ethical way to handle this. But yeah, personally let Jita burn. I just wish it would actually accomplish something.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:43:00 - [201] - Quote FastJack316 wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: Notice how 0.0 is dominated by a few massive alliances now? It didn't used to be. It used to have more smaller groups. Cause, you know, they could come and take some space without a 1000 man instablob teleporting in. When I first joined EVE in 2007, five years ago, 0.0 was dominated by a handful of ***** enormous coalitions, so if you're appealing to some glorious pre-cyno balkanized nullsec I actually have no idea what it may have been like. Even without titanbridges we still blobbed the ** out of everything possible all the time, we just spent ten times as long travelling to the fight and we'd hope the node didn't crash. And thanks to taking ten times as long people like my little corp could go out there and and do stuff without having people pull 200 caps out of their ass. Now you either bring a fleet capable of taking on the big alliances or join them.
FastJack316 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:47:00 - [202] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: And thanks to taking ten times as long people like my little corp could go out there and and do stuff without having people pull 200 caps out of their ass. Frankly **** your ten man corp if means making the game miserable for my 8000 man corp. This isn't a point we're going to agree on, obviously, but I'm much happier with it being far more enjoyable to fight other giant coalitions at the expense of tiny corps not being able to take space. I'm pretty sure wormhole space was made explicitly for the purpose of smaller corps having an opportunity to settle a frontier with unique, highly profitable resources that a tightly knit small group would have a dramatic advantage over, so I don't feel bad about 0.0 not being that place and don't think there's any reason for CCP to make it that place. e: I like big space battles and I cannot lie, you other pilots can't deny that when a girl walks in with an itty bitty cyno and 2000 ships in your face you get sprung
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:49:00 - [203] - Quote FastJack316 wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: And thanks to taking ten times as long people like my little corp could go out there and and do stuff without having people pull 200 caps out of their ass. Frankly ** your ten man corp if means making the game miserable for my 8000 man corp. This isn't a point we're going to agree on, obviously, but I'm much happier with it being far more enjoyable to fight other giant coalitions at the expense of tiny corps not being able to take space. I'm pretty sure wormhole space was made explicitly for the purpose of smaller corps having an opportunity to settle a frontier with unique, highly profitable resources that a tightly knit small group would have a dramatic advantage over, so I don't feel bad about 0.0 not being that place and don't think there's any reason for CCP to make it that place. Cause it's so fun living out of a POS. Let me build an outpost and maybe I'll give a ** about wormholes.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 08:57:00 - [204] - Quote FastJack316 wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Cynos, bridges etc. are just garbage to avoid PVP and killed one of the main factors of risk in low and 0.0 sec. Cynos and titanbridges are a huge source of risk in 0.0, though. It's a hell of a lot harder to be immune to the risk of a hotdrop than putting a scout in neighboring systems. And if it wasn't for titanbridges and jump bridge networks we couldn't go roaming in Cobalt Edge halfway across eve while drunk and Deklein couldn't play host to roaming gangs from everywhere all the time. There isn't enough stuff or people in 0.0 to justify 'expanding' it by increasing travel time and even if you could you'd be removing conflict generators in doing so. I beg to disagree. When I was alone I had to get to NPC Stain passing thru your sov (years ago). I got chased for 45 jumps by some particularly hell bent guys. Luckily I only found unmanned bubbles in the way and avoided others by warping to safes and planets. When I joined an alliance I went 1 jump in low sec, fleet warp to POS and Titan insta-ported us to destination, still "above" of your sov on the maps. I can't call it "huge source of risk" and imo it's just sh!te. Sure, "on fight" operations have indeed hot drops and my fleet has been nuked itself by carriers and crap because of it. BUT Hot drop is not really related to bridges, you can get hot dropped without them, it's 2 separate things, which I happen to despise both (expecially bridges). If you did not have bridges you'd actually risk being hot dropped WAY more, all the way to destination. As for the conflict generation, imo in order to have a conflict you have to have warring factions. When 0.0 was more "disconnected", you could have more and smaller entities in attrition instead of an handful of huge bored NAPs. Furthermore some of those smaller entities were varied, i.e. some were more industry focused. Yes it was probably before 2007. Last time I was there, instead, all I could find was pure PVP corps with no industry left. Industry was just left to a couple of officers, mainly for ships reimbursement tasks. Now, if large 0.0 alliances did not come with their stupid strings attached (politics, stupid hours boring ops etc.). But they do, so only real fun for small 10-30 roamers corps is NPC or WHs now. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Stirko Hek SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 15	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:01:00 - [205] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: As for wardecs and war evasion: CCP wants to find a mechanism which will prevent griefers from serial-wardeccing a corp. Any such mechanism will necessarily allow PvP-averse players to avoid wardecs, which is an acceptable contingency. As a serious PvPer, you know that you have the option to simply suicide gank the target. Complaining about targets evading wardecs is basically saying, "I can't be arsed to suicide gank the target, because I am averse to losing the ships I necessarily must destroy to perform that attack." You are the carebear. The new wardec system changes nothing. Griefers will still grief and continue to wage war against industrial corps, holing up in a station the moment any resistance is encountered. I don't know why CCP Greyscale is trying to fix it when it's necessarily broken. Your post has many flaws and assumptions in it. Firstly, I have no problems with losing ships on a single gank. My expectation going in is that I will lose the ship, regardless. How does that make me a carebear? Secondly, your concept of wardecs is, again, flawed. PVP-averse players basically want an escape function, the ability to just IDCLIP/IDSPISPOPD and run away from an ingame event with nothing to stop them, is your argument. Dear god, why? Why even bother playing EVE with that logic? My previous post had the point that fun and achievement are only felt when there is an actual risk component in what is being done. If there is no risk of failure or loss, then what victory or achievement do you even have? I always considered that high sec should be a kind of "tutorial land". Many RPG's use this concept, the early points of the game are good for learning and character building, but as you go on both risk and reward in such a place are reduced. The issue here is that we have an area where you are pretty much as safe as you would be in an early RPG start area, you can keep developing there as much as you want and the rewards actually rise rather than diminsh as you develop. Reward and risk should scale, but it would appear high sec miners want all the reward and none of the risk (via abilities to avoid war d
Pinky Feldman Gank Bangers Moar Tears 132	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:05:00 - [206] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: And I've been complaining about jump freighters, jump bridges and anything else with jump in the name just as much as I have about carebears. Imo hi sec is the worst feature ever. Other PvP games don't have this crap. Cynos, bridges etc. are just garbage to avoid PVP and killed one of the main factors of risk in low and 0.0 sec. Hi sec is garbage to avoid PvP. Wardecs are garbage because they add on the garbage which is hi sec. Suicide ganks are still garbage because they are another patch to hi sec. In particular, hi sec introduced risk averse victims but also risk averse PvPers. I am sure that if they removed hi sec, then the risk averse PvPers would stay permadocked and cry as much as their targets. I think you're over-generalizing what is generally perceived as risk averse PVPers. Highsec PVP differs from lowsec/nullsec PVP in the fact that due to the smaller gang size, the focus is more on being able to catch/kill everything that jumps through a gate rather than "can i run away from this situation if i get blobbed" and as a result the warfare has changed over time to reflect this. The reason highsec necessitates gank fits with neutral logi and sebo'd out heavy tackle is because the amount of time you have to lock down a target before he can burn back to the gate is much shorter compared to nullsec where you have drag bubbles that give you all the time in the world to take down a target. In nullsec, for example, you could kill a close range PVP fit BS that lands in a drag bubble 70km off a gate with a Rapier and minimal DPS through good piloting and range management because you have all the time in the world. In highsec, you can't do this because unless you can quickly thrown down lots of tackle, they can just gate crash and log off on the other side of the gate after jumping through clears their aggro and derez after a minute. Anywhere else in New Eden, keeping eyes on the other side of a gate and warping off if you know you can't handle what is about to come through the gate is considered being smart, yet in highsec its considered being risk averse with a negative connotation. Why should I be considered a bad pilot who is "risk averse" because I know how my ship matches up against other ones and am good at recognizing bait? Its a common myth that Highsec PVPers are the only people in EVE who only want "lazy/risk averse" kills, while nowadays even minor nullsec/lowsec alliances are able to cover an entire region with cyno alts and titan bridge blobs onto people. Using neutral logistics to hide your gang's fighting strength in a fleet engagement doesn't even come close to being able to having the ability to not only force project but also completely hide your entire gang over an entire region. The moar you cry the less you pee
Hikaru Kuroda Shimai of New Eden 52	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:07:00 - [207] - Quote Go play WoW.
Kestrix UV Heavy Industries 29	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:08:00 - [208] - Quote I've not had time to read the whole document but I saw this. Quote: The reason PvP largely went extinct in nullsec is that the nullsec miner went extinct. Thats wrong, Null sec mining does happen and is very profitable.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:11:00 - [209] - Quote Kestrix wrote: Thats wrong, Null sec mining does happen and is very profitable. Says the guy in the high sec corp.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:19:00 - [210] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Its a common myth that Highsec PVPers are the only people in EVE who only want "lazy/risk averse" kills, while nowadays even minor nullsec/lowsec alliances are able to cover an entire region with cyno alts and titan bridge blobs onto people. Using neutral logistics to hide your gang's fighting strength in a fleet engagement doesn't even come close to being able to having the ability to not only force project but also completely hide your entire gang over an entire region. I don't like that a lot too. I won't bring in extreme examples I played like Darkfall Online (where you lose ALL including gold and you are only relatively safe in NPC towns). I played other less intense PVP games a la DAOC or Warhammer, where PvE is lol more than EvE (and actually gets useless once you have got those 3-4 items, all the rest comes from PvP including gear and weapons). In those games you go out and kill or get killed. On open RvR servers at level 1 you can be killed right outside your camp, while questing, doing PvE etc, even inside instances. In EvE "hi sec" I often team up with a mercs corp and protect certain people. Guess what if I see a known buttface I can't kill him. They are in NPC corps and immediately disband corp anyway. Plus they are many, can't be arsed to pick them all up. If this was a real PvP area I could kill and pod them in peace. A PvP area without the 0.0 burdens, plus unlike WHs it's packed of people and unlike FW / 0.0 little blobs. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Testerxnot Sheepherder DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew 135	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:24:00 - [211] - Quote OP is a ***** ****. There, I said it.
Mark Androcius 56	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:28:00 - [212] - Quote I managed to focus on a hand full of paragraphs and all i could deduce from it, is that the OP finds it strange that mining corporations do not defend themselves. The OP points out that, almost all mining characters refuse to switch to a fighting ship. Well OP, let me just help you out with that. Before you can even begin to think you can defend yourself, you need to have trained at least the cruiser skill of a preferred faction, you need to have small and medium weapons skills complimenting the ship you're flying to at least level 4, you need to have a good couple of Engineering skills to level 3 ( at least ), some mechanic skills are also much wanted, maybe drone skills, add those too. Now, if you focus on mining, refining and manufacturing, maybe some PI and some research, you're already looking at 20 million skill points, just to have that all reasonably maxed out. Seeing as the average player trains about 1.3 - 1.5 million skill points per month, you're looking at at least 1 and a quarter years, just to get good at industry. I don't know how your mathematical intelligence works, but training to also be able to defend yourself, even though you'd only really need to 3 times a year ( i think that's about the average ), sound very inefficient to me. Btw, just so you know.... The fact that making isk has become one of the most important features of this game, is ENTIRELY CCP's fault. By intoducing PLEX, they have done a few things. 1) Gave access to "previously" hard to get ships and modules that would otherwise be to expensive for most. 2) Gave people who have time/talent and knowledge of how to make isk, a way to play the game for free. 3) Gave people a reason to farm as much isk as possible, just so they could play for free. 4) A lot more, but i think if you think about it, you could come up with those yourself. If a man speaks his mind in the forest and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1264	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:45:00 - [213] - Quote Stirko Hek wrote: Secondly, your concept of wardecs is, again, flawed. PVP-averse players basically want an escape function, the ability to just IDCLIP/IDSPISPOPD and run away from an ingame event with nothing to stop them, is your argument. Dear god, why? Why even bother playing EVE with that logic? My previous post had the point that fun and achievement are only felt when there is an actual risk component in what is being done. If there is no risk of failure or loss, then what victory or achievement do you even have? So wardec a corp that will fight back? Of if it's industrialists who are competing with your interests, just suicide gank their mining ships and transports and be done with it: no need for a wardec. Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top. I didn't say that I like the ability for corps to escape wardecs, but neither do I like the ability for griefers to serial-wardec individual players to basically force them out of the game. Where do you draw the line? Drawing the line on the side where people can avoid wardecs makes more sense to me than drawing it on the side where people get to grief others out of the game. You can go suicide gank that capsuleer still. There's nothing stopping you from doing that. If CCP was actually trying to remove all PvP from hisec, they'd lock weapons so you couldn't shoot anyone. Please stop whining about how you can't get your cheap easy kills in hisec. The kills are still there to be had, you just have some hurdles in between your ganking and driving someone from the game.
March rabbit Trojan Trolls Red Alliance 167	Posted - 2012.04.27 09:53:00 - [214] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff? Now think of all the "features" CCP have introduced over the years that allow you to avoid that PvP. let's remember: - supers nerf (drones + logoffski) - titan nerf (guns + tracking) - jump bridges nerf (boost to gate camping, nerf to "carebears in JFs") - new T3 battlecruisers (cheaper gank) - boost to hybrids (cheaper gank) - ...?
Sedrie Apple Industries Inc. Surely You're Joking 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:03:00 - [215] - Quote James 315 wrote: At the very same time, these carebears are asking CCP to ban the way you choose to play the game. Ironic, no? I suppose "hypocrisy" would be a better word. But the carebear ideology and the culture of EVE cannot coexist. There is no "sandbox" when one group is trying to ban the activities of the other group. Jesus tap dancing christ, you're still a raving lunatic. Miners are bad because they want to do their thing, without you blowing them up. Therefore they are hypocrites for wanting to change the game. You want to get rid of miners because they somehow...offend your sensibilities? And by doing so, you are a self-proclaimed hypocrite for changing the game. So which is it? Or are you admitting you are a hypocrite? No, I did not read your wall of text beyond these first few lines of post #2. I had enough of your rantings in Arva local.
Zoidberg Gahiji Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:07:00 - [216] - Quote You forgot Incursions and the Incursionbears. They brought a whole new breed of carebears, beargreed, bearentitlement and bearelitism to EVE which are far more reckless than any bear before them. You are also focusing too much on miners. Death-to-PvP-Bears are everywhere and not limited to mining. And you are too much of a goon *****. There are way too many paragraphs where you praise goons and jump around yelling "I want to marry mittens! I want to marry mittens!". Was rather disgusting to read and your poorest parts. Furthermore you conveniently ignore that most of the recent hi sec nerfs came through due to their actions and campaigns in the first place and forced and bloated the issue. Lastly you didn't proof anything. You just jabber a lot without any references at all. 7/10 for your tremendous effort.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 792	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:07:00 - [217] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff? Now think of all the "features" CCP have introduced over the years that allow you to avoid that PvP. let's remember: - supers nerf (drones + logoffski) - titan nerf (guns + tracking) - jump bridges nerf (boost to gate camping, nerf to "carebears in JFs") - new T3 battlecruisers (cheaper gank) - boost to hybrids (cheaper gank) - ...? None of that has anything to do with non-consensual PvP, and supers and titans are really relevent when it comes to high sec risk averse care bears. I hear they farm level fours and run mining ops in their tracking titans all the time. As for your comment on tier 3s and destroyers, that just shows you haven't read the OP. I recommend you read it before commenting on it, or at least search for the relevant section. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
March rabbit Trojan Trolls Red Alliance 167	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:09:00 - [218] - Quote Pinky Feldman wrote: Using neutral logistics to hide your gang's fighting strength in a fleet engagement doesn't even come close to being able to having the ability to not only force project but also completely hide your entire gang over an entire region. Titan can be killed, cyno alt can be killed, target system can be cyno jammed, cynos and titan-bridges need fuel. Titan pilots are known to all spies (and in watchlist already), cyno alts can be detected and watchlisted too. Intelligence at work. Neutral logistics ships just do the job and can't be countered without CONCORD intervention. New mechanic helps a little but .... see the difference?
March rabbit Trojan Trolls Red Alliance 167	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:10:00 - [219] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: March rabbit wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff? Now think of all the "features" CCP have introduced over the years that allow you to avoid that PvP. let's remember: - supers nerf (drones + logoffski) - titan nerf (guns + tracking) - jump bridges nerf (boost to gate camping, nerf to "carebears in JFs") - new T3 battlecruisers (cheaper gank) - boost to hybrids (cheaper gank) - ...? None of that has anything to do with non-consensual PvP, and supers and titans are really relevent when it comes to high sec risk averse care bears. I hear they farm level fours and run mining ops in their tracking titans all the time. As for your comment on tier 3s and destroyers, that just shows you haven't read the OP. I recommend you read it before commenting on it, or at least search for the relevant section. only if you read whole posts chain...... but this is not for us, yea?
Stirko Hek SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 19	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:32:00 - [220] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top. What a load of crap. I was running a single man corp on an alt, wardeccing mining corps of 20+ people. One alt against multiple others. I'd say winning a fight like that would be coming out on top, pure because if these miners just fit a bunch of rifters, thrashers or even a rookie ships, they'd have been able to defend themselves easily. That is the problem here, where these 100~ man corps will basically jump ship to an alt corp to hide from a wardec from a single man corp. Telling me I shouldn't be mean and go after these poor, weak miners who can't even engage me twenty to one is just plain weak, it's a poor argument. Worst of all, you're ignoring the sandbox issue. In a sandbox game, I'm free to wardec them. Instead of running and hiding, they are also free to shoot back at me in ships of their choice. All they need do is keep a good eye on local, dock up when a wartarget enters, swap ships and bait the sucker. The dumb part of it all is that they're so scared of a single pilot, they won't even dare risk cheap t1 ships to beat that person at their own game. Are high sec miners that sentimental about virtual goods?
TWHC Assistant 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:38:00 - [221] - Quote Is this what you call a rant?
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 45	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:39:00 - [222] - Quote I usually find gankers tears delicious but in this case they're not. I completely agree with everything you've written and i think all these response posts are just the symptoms of the cancer showing. However i think the solution would be far simpler: let them mine, let them make high sec completely pve. But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect.
Andreus Ixiris Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach 809	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:41:00 - [223] - Quote OK, I apologise for not reading it through fully before making a judgement, that was my bad. I still think it's a hysterical pile of **. Carebears might be a problem but you're not going to get the disparate forces of EVE Online to unite in any manner - especially not by insulting large swathes of them. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris** CEO, Mixed Metaphor Animated Corporate Logos
Stirko Hek SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 19	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:50:00 - [224] - Quote Just Alter wrote: But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect. This, if you want safety it comes at a price. That price is grinding low end ores for pennies. Just like any other game, low risk = low reward. Want the good stuff? Learn to watch local, pay attention and actually play the game.
Andrea Roche State War Academy Caldari State 69	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:51:00 - [225] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read +1 gone to read evenews24 instead
MatrixSkye Mk2 Republic University Minmatar Republic 295	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:54:00 - [226] - Quote OMG! H-ítler plays Eve?!?!
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1264	Posted - 2012.04.27 10:58:00 - [227] - Quote Stirko Hek wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top. What a load of crap. I was running a single man corp on an alt, wardeccing mining corps of 20+ people. One alt against multiple others. I'd say winning a fight like that would be coming out on top, pure because if these miners just fit a bunch of rifters, thrashers or even a rookie ships, they'd have been able to defend themselves easily. What risk did you face?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1264	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:03:00 - [228] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Titan can be killed, cyno alt can be killed, target system can be cyno jammed, cynos and titan-bridges need fuel. Titan pilots are known to all spies (and in watchlist already), cyno alts can be detected and watchlisted too. Intelligence at work. Neutral logistics ships just do the job and can't be countered without CONCORD intervention. Neutral logistics go blinky red when they rep your war targets. You can shoot them just fine. The Incursion tweaks did not change that: the Incursion tweaks simply meant that a logistics pilot can choose to no longer rep a GCC target. On the other hand, neutral off-grid boosters are certainly a problem for hisec wardecs.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:07:00 - [229] - Quote Stirko Hek wrote: Just Alter wrote: But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect. This, if you want safety it comes at a price. That price is grinding low end ores for pennies. Just like any other game, low risk = low reward. Want the good stuff? Learn to watch local, pay attention and actually play the game. How would you exactly make the earn just pennies? Trit, Pyerite etc, have exactly the value you and others put into them. By default they could be worth close to zero. It's players choices to pay more than just pennies, you can do nothing against that. Actually there is a solution: you and your buddies embrace mining and stop buying from hi seccers. You'll see how fun mining is. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 792	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:08:00 - [230] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: March rabbit wrote: Titan can be killed, cyno alt can be killed, target system can be cyno jammed, cynos and titan-bridges need fuel. Titan pilots are known to all spies (and in watchlist already), cyno alts can be detected and watchlisted too. Intelligence at work. Neutral logistics ships just do the job and can't be countered without CONCORD intervention. Neutral logistics go blinky red when they rep your war targets. You can shoot them just fine. The Incursion tweaks did not change that: the Incursion tweaks simply meant that a logistics pilot can choose to no longer rep a GCC target. On the other hand, neutral off-grid boosters are certainly a problem for hisec wardecs. Neutral RR is a problem for high sec PvP, if you claim otherwise you've probably never done any high sec PvP. Neutral RR and the simplicity of war dec evasion are the two reasons everyone I know who has tried high sec wars have given up on them and returned to real space. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Meryl SinGarda Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team 484	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:09:00 - [231] - Quote I like turtles. CEO of B.U.T.T. -á(recruitment is open) Twitter: @MerylSinGarda http://EVEportraits.com
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 792	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:10:00 - [232] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Stirko Hek wrote: Just Alter wrote: But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect. This, if you want safety it comes at a price. That price is grinding low end ores for pennies. Just like any other game, low risk = low reward. Want the good stuff? Learn to watch local, pay attention and actually play the game. How would you exactly make the earn just pennies? Trit, Pyerite etc, have exactly the value you and others put into them. By default they could be worth close to zero. It's players choices to pay more than just pennies, you can do nothing agaist that. You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Stirko Hek SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:13:00 - [233] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Stirko Hek wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top. What a load of crap. I was running a single man corp on an alt, wardeccing mining corps of 20+ people. One alt against multiple others. I'd say winning a fight like that would be coming out on top, pure because if these miners just fit a bunch of rifters, thrashers or even a rookie ships, they'd have been able to defend themselves easily. What risk did you face? The fact they could easily just fit some cheap frigates and shoot back against one person? Or is PVP such an alien concept to you that you could not even consider such an idea?
Josef Djugashvilis 121	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:15:00 - [234] - Quote Short version. 'Op doesn't like miners' You want fries with that?
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:16:00 - [235] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking. So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much? I think you got economy right the opposite way it works. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Bischopt Alekhine's Gun 87	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:28:00 - [236] - Quote lol
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 792	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:29:00 - [237] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking. So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much? I think you got economy right the opposite way it works. Not to miners, to high sec miners. Although personally I think the better approach would be to nerf their ability to evade war decs, and possibly turn back some of the ganking nerfs. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Lady Hofstedar Novindus Equilibrium 67	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:30:00 - [238] - Quote Biggest pile of **** i have ever read from an idiot pvpers who just realised that his antics agaisnt miners in low sec has messed up one side of the game. A long winded pile of rubbish to incite mass griefing
Gerald Taric Adamantium Industry 47	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:31:00 - [239] - Quote OP tries to hit Gerald with MASSIVE POSTING. "TL;DR" shild from Geralds ship repels it. Before i read all of this massive wall of words, i wish to know one thing: I myself consider me being a (proud) carebear, because i avoid PvP and prefer PvE action in WH- and HighSec-space. Nevertheless ... i'm pretty fine with the "there's no save place in EVE" and do NOT want it to be removed. In fact i consider it as a challenge. Therefore ... how is a carebear defined in EVE?
Asuri Kinnes Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy 365	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:31:00 - [240] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: When was the last time non-consensual PvP got a buff? WH's? Edit to add: Tornado, Destroyer buffs? Wormholes: The NEW end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs. NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA!
Lady Hofstedar Novindus Equilibrium 67	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:33:00 - [241] - Quote Just Alter wrote: I usually find gankers tears delicious but in this case they're not. I completely agree with everything you've written and i think all these response posts are just the symptoms of the cancer showing. However i think the solution would be far simpler: let them mine, let them make high sec completely pve. But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect. ur a damn fool Let me tell what really happens shall i? PvP pilots make null sec unsafe in any way. So miners who have NO INTEREST IN PVP AS IS THERE RIGHT AS A HUMAN BEING move to safer ground Then u make grifer alts to get kills in empire miners quit, prices rise and what do u do blame the miners PvP pilots are killing this game, not the miners your all idiots
Audrey Thinkerbolt Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 11	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:35:00 - [242] - Quote Ted, is it you?
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 792	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:36:00 - [243] - Quote Lady Hofstedar wrote: Just Alter wrote: I usually find gankers tears delicious but in this case they're not. I completely agree with everything you've written and i think all these response posts are just the symptoms of the cancer showing. However i think the solution would be far simpler: let them mine, let them make high sec completely pve. But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect. ur a damn fool Let me tell what really happens shall i? PvP pilots make null sec unsafe in any way. So miners who have NO INTEREST IN PVP AS IS THERE RIGHT AS A HUMAN BEING move to safer ground Then u make grifer alts to get kills in empire miners quit, prices rise and what do u do blame the miners PvP pilots are killing this game, not the miners your all idiots Posting to confirm it is an act against your human rights to prevent you care bearing it up wherever you wish. Gtfo and go play a game more suitable, hello kitty online is excellent by the way. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Kestrix UV Heavy Industries 29	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:37:00 - [244] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Kestrix wrote: Thats wrong, Null sec mining does happen and is very profitable. Says the guy in the high sec corp. And of course I couldn't possibley have firends in other none hi-sec corps. Infact I'm in the process of moving out to null sec, you guys play too rough in Hi-sec for me.
Devil's Call Catocalypse Meow ZOMBIE KITTY FORCE 746	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:37:00 - [245] - Quote I have to admit that I enjoy reading your so called manifestos, yet it almost seems as if you have to convince yourself that you're following a righteous cause. I personally don't think you're right at all about miners/carebears, but to each his opinion I suppose. I must say that you have some talent though, you write well... =D
Lady Hofstedar Novindus Equilibrium 67	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:38:00 - [246] - Quote also quoted from the end of his massive rant *It's not enough to know the truth; you have to act upon it. Some say the EVE community is too divided, diverse, and disinterested to act. I'm not worried. I am confident that each of you will do what is necessary. Once you feed upon the highsec miner's blood and drink of his tears, you will be a changed man or woman. You will never again doubt the righteousness of our cause or the rapture found in its methods.* The exact words of a griefer / goon / test pilot etc Your words are simply a long winded rant to stir people against miners. Mittani's plan is to bring eve to its knees, do u know what's happening? NOTHING Because outside of Jita and goon space, no one gives a damn idiots
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 792	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:38:00 - [247] - Quote Devil's Call wrote: I have to admit that I enjoy reading your so called manifestos, yet it almost seems as if you have to convince yourself that you're following a righteous cause. I personally don't think you're right at all about miners/carebears, but to each his opinion I suppose. I must say that you have some talent though, you write well... =D Care to elaborate? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Devil's Call Catocalypse Meow ZOMBIE KITTY FORCE 746	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:43:00 - [248] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Devil's Call wrote: I have to admit that I enjoy reading your so called manifestos, yet it almost seems as if you have to convince yourself that you're following a righteous cause. I personally don't think you're right at all about miners/carebears, but to each his opinion I suppose. I must say that you have some talent though, you write well... =D Care to elaborate? Elaborate on the fact that I think that he's writing all of this to justify his ganking habbits? He's so extreme in his visions that I look upon this as either a massive troll, or somebody who's taking eve a little too serious yet is somehow in doubt that he's really doing the right thing. (Ganking miners/carebears and trying to convince everybody that they're the reason that eve has become a little more safe than before and are the root of all evil in eve.)
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 795	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:49:00 - [249] - Quote Devil's Call wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Devil's Call wrote: I have to admit that I enjoy reading your so called manifestos, yet it almost seems as if you have to convince yourself that you're following a righteous cause. I personally don't think you're right at all about miners/carebears, but to each his opinion I suppose. I must say that you have some talent though, you write well... =D Care to elaborate? Elaborate on the fact that I think that he's writing all of this to justify his ganking habbits? He's so extreme in his visions that I look upon this as either a massive troll, or somebody who's taking eve a little too serious yet is somehow in doubt that he's really doing the right thing. (Ganking miners/carebears and trying to convince everybody that they're the reason that eve has become a little more safe than before and are the root of all evil in eve.) Well the truth is Eve is pretty ******* dull now. There is a massive culture of entitlement, even though it has become easier and easier to avoid PvP. The conclusion is inevitable, nothing good is happening to PvP in Eve. Nothing good has happened to PvP in Eve in a long time. If anything the OP is limited in his scope when he describes the issues player entitlement has put on the Eve "sandbox", it is hardly even fit to call a sand box anymore. We have reached the point where an intelligent player can make as much ISK as they want, and realistically never expect to lose a ship. This is not the Eve online that a lot of us signed up for. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Lfod Shi Lfod's Ratting and Salvage 14	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:50:00 - [250] - Quote Just uh, to the OP. You didn't really expect anyone to actually read past the table of contents did you? GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ½
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 48	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:54:00 - [251] - Quote Lady Hofstedar wrote: Just Alter wrote: I usually find gankers tears delicious but in this case they're not. I completely agree with everything you've written and i think all these response posts are just the symptoms of the cancer showing. However i think the solution would be far simpler: let them mine, let them make high sec completely pve. But remove every kind of profit from it, you want to mine in high sec? Fine, you wont make more than 10ml/hour with a max skilled hulk and orca boosts. That's how it should be imho: let them do what they wont, just balance the risk/reward aspect. ur a damn fool Let me tell what really happens shall i? PvP pilots make null sec unsafe in any way. So miners who have NO INTEREST IN PVP AS IS THERE RIGHT AS A HUMAN BEING move to safer ground Then u make grifer alts to get kills in empire miners quit, prices rise and what do u do blame the miners PvP pilots are killing this game, not the miners your all idiots omg r i rly a dam fool? I think the post the OP was trying to make was exactly what you pointed out: nobody in eve should have a right to avoid pvp. What i said is: if we really want someone to have that right at least make them pay dearly for it. As for those worried about prices: more people will mine in nullsec, problem solved and profit for all.
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 50	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:57:00 - [252] - Quote Lfod Shi wrote: Just uh, to the OP. You didn't really expect anyone to actually read past the table of contents did you? Well i read it all as it was well written and arranged, even entertaining considering the subjects treated. Dont think everyone is as lazy or as illiterate as you.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 795	Posted - 2012.04.27 11:59:00 - [253] - Quote Lfod Shi wrote: Just uh, to the OP. You didn't really expect anyone to actually read past the table of contents did you? Reading is hard yo. Don't worry, im sure he'll bring out an illustrated edition soon. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Sasori michi Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:00:00 - [254] - Quote After reading some of that ..whatever it is. I have come to a conclusion he/she is a Goon alt trying to contribute to the destruction of yet another MMO ( any one remember Darkfall ?...no, well the Goons killed that too). 2/10
Devil's Call Catocalypse Meow ZOMBIE KITTY FORCE 746	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:01:00 - [255] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Devil's Call wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Devil's Call wrote: I have to admit that I enjoy reading your so called manifestos, yet it almost seems as if you have to convince yourself that you're following a righteous cause. I personally don't think you're right at all about miners/carebears, but to each his opinion I suppose. I must say that you have some talent though, you write well... =D Care to elaborate? Elaborate on the fact that I think that he's writing all of this to justify his ganking habbits? He's so extreme in his visions that I look upon this as either a massive troll, or somebody who's taking eve a little too serious yet is somehow in doubt that he's really doing the right thing. (Ganking miners/carebears and trying to convince everybody that they're the reason that eve has become a little more safe than before and are the root of all evil in eve.) Well the truth is Eve is pretty ******* dull now. There is a massive culture of entitlement, even though it has become easier and easier to avoid PvP. The conclusion is inevitable, nothing good is happening to PvP in Eve. Nothing good has happened to PvP in Eve in a long time. If anything the OP is limited in his scope when he describes the issues player entitlement has put on the Eve "sandbox", it is hardly even fit to call a sand box anymore. We have reached the point where an intelligent player can make as much ISK as they want, and realistically never expect to lose a ship. This is not the Eve online that a lot of us signed up for. I agree that Eve has become a little dull lately, is this because of miners who are relatively safe? (Apparently not as the OP is ganking them, which takes effort... admittedly, but that's probably why he enjoys ganking them, it's rewarding if you will.) I think not. And miners don't really make all that much isk anyway. The real isk is in C5/C6 escalations anyway, and the recently nerfed incursions. Is there any risk there? Sure... there should be. But how often do you get ganked in those huh? I dare to say that it's almost more dangerous to mine in high-sec atm than it is to run wormhole sites with a well established wormhole alliance.
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 50	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:07:00 - [256] - Quote Sasori michi wrote: After reading some of that ..whatever it is. I have come to a conclusion he/she is a Goon alt trying to contribute to the destruction of yet another MMO ( any one remember Darkfall ?...no, well the Goons killed that too). 2/10 If the goons are killing it then it's better if it dies quickly rather than dying a slow and agonizing death rolling in his own filth and being pissed and shat upon by drooling idiots.
Camios Minmatar Bread Corporation 100	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:12:00 - [257] - Quote I read almost all of it, and it was a good read, even if it's obvious that it is a Mittani alt and just focuses on miners while also mission runners deserve their share of punishment. Vocal highsec carebears and mission runners will always try to destroy the balance of this game. I agree in making highsec even safer, but then highsec systems should be reduced, lvl4 missions must be taken to lowsec, and mineral compression must be nerfed so that there is need of miners in 0.0. There are 2 major problems in EVE: 1. Everything, be it isk or minerals, is too abundant 2. The risk/reward ratio is complletely out of balance, taking risks looks very stupid for a solo player. The solo player that wants to take risks and go to lowsec or nullsec should be rewarded.
Sushi Nardieu Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:20:00 - [258] - Quote read all of it. kill all vocal carebears
Kestrix UV Heavy Industries 29	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:21:00 - [259] - Quote Space ships are not seeded in the eve universe. Some one somewhere has to mine the minerals and build the ships. Next time your ganking a miner in thier hulk ask yourself where the minerals came from to build it and the ship your losing to CONCORD?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1264	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:25:00 - [260] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Well the truth is Eve is pretty ******* dull now. There is a massive culture of entitlementGÇª GÇª and that's just the super capital pilots in null sec NAP-fests!
Sadleric GLOBAL DISSENSION Test Friends Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:32:00 - [261] - Quote Kestrix wrote: Space ships are not seeded in the eve universe. Some one somewhere has to mine the minerals and build the ships. Next time your ganking a miner in thier hulk ask yourself where the minerals came from to build it and the ship your losing to CONCORD? Approximately 144million isk of the 220+ price of your Hulk comes from Technitium, the majority of which is moon mined by Goons. Have a nice day.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1264	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:32:00 - [262] - Quote Stirko Hek wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: What risk did you face? The fact they could easily just fit some cheap frigates and shoot back against one person? Or is PVP such an alien concept to you that you could not even consider such an idea? So the risk that you faced was that you would warp into a fleet of mining ships which turn into frigates shooting back at you? I'm not sure what you're saying. My experience with wardecs has been that the three-man corp is actually 12 people, 3 in the wardeccing corp, 9 flying logistics in NPC corps to support them. When they found out that we didn't keep flying orcas and mammoths, they'd hole up and refuse to fight. Monumental ****-up on their part, and about the only risk that hisec wardeccers ever face. Then they have the temerity to complain that it's too easy to avoid a wardec by simply not logging in! Perhaps you're different though.
Image Nalelmir St. Eve Inc. 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:44:00 - [263] - Quote Holy crap... Okay, I'm brand-spanking-new player, but I read this and just had to give my opinion. To the OP: First of all, bravo sir. And I mean that with absolutely no sarcasm. I'm a long-winded fellow myself, and the absolute gall it takes to post something like this is commendable. But I think it's a little misguided. Don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that 100% safe Hi-Sec mining is BS. One of the main things that drew me to EVE after all these years is the whole idea that "nowhere is safe" . But you're going about it all wrong. First, mass ganking ALL Hi-Sec miners is going to do nothing but create a resource vacuum and perpetuate the nerf cycle. I've realized, very early on, that mining is not for me, at least not for the long haul, but I'm thankful that it IS for some people, because they supply me with all the stuff I go cruising around the galaxy in. You're creating an artificial barrier for newer players. And no, I'm not whining on my own behalf, here. I've found making ISK to be relatively easy. But the more you drive up the market, the harder it will be. New players come into the game every day, and every day mass ganking drives the market up, the more of them will get turned off by the ever-growing start-up costs. Add to that the fact that, thanks to PLEX, only newer accounts actually tend to pay for the costs associated with keeping EVE going. So eliminating Hi-Sec mining and driving the market to absolutely absurd heights is just as likely to make the servers go dark as the "one more nerf" syndrome. And then, of course, there's the self-perpetuation of that cycle. Gankers currently tend to have to put a LOT of work into taking out mining ops, as you elaborately demonstrated. And all that work does only one thing: Justify CCP's next nerf to make ganking in Hi-Sec even harder. You're talking about driving players from the game. CCP doesn't want that to happen, especially because there are so many of them, so they're going to try to stop you from doing it. The key is to make CCP realize how one-sided the game is, currently. If it really is, of course. I, myself, have no way of knowing if it is or not, but the only people who seem to be disagreeing with you are the very people you're calling out against, so maybe there's some validity there. Here's my personal view on the matter: players should be free (well, relatively free... again, nowhere is 100% safe) from PVP if that's what they want. However, it shouldn't also be one of the absolute best ways to make ISK in the game. Risk and reward should counterbalance. Doing something, ANYTHING, somewhere that has a higher chance of getting you killed should always be more rewarding than doing the same thing somewhere with a lower risk factor. That is what seems to be unbalanced here. It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly. Mass ganking, on the other hand, is only going to make the few who slip through the cracks (because you can't seriously kill ALL of them) that much richer, as the market value of their actions continue to rise. Which is just going to encourage more people to fill the gaps left in your wake, who will now be protected by the next nerf, and the next, and the next... Just my take on things...
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:49:00 - [264] - Quote Quote: I soon discovered the real reason why many of these miners chose to continue mining, defenseless, during an active wardec. They used bots and/or proximity alerts that enabled them to immediately warp back to a station if a war target entered local. At first, I was puzzled by their ability to react so quickly. I was able to eliminate the possibility they were using watchlists--my main joined the warring corp shortly before entering the system. Nor were they scouting the gates, since there were usually multiple gates, no one present at them, and/or all of their corp members accounted for in the belt during the initial scouting. And it couldn't have been that they were merely monitoring local for people with the war target tag, since the systems often had as many as 100-200 pilots. Yet some miners were able to immediately initiate warp from the moment I entered the system. The conclusion was obvious: Highsec miners were using cheats to protect themselves during wardecs. You've highlighted a pretty big issue with the wardec system there. Why should one guy be able to cause that much disruption to so many players and be virtually untraceable without cheating? You really want every single highsec mining team to bring an armed escort tough enough to kill an Ishtar? Then there's the fact that its a totally assymetric war. How would the miners strike back against a one man corp, when your combat pilot only joined right before striking? The whole thing is a bad joke, and I hope the next expansion improves things.
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery 1084	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:50:00 - [265] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Stirko Hek wrote: Secondly, your concept of wardecs is, again, flawed. PVP-averse players basically want an escape function, the ability to just IDCLIP/IDSPISPOPD and run away from an ingame event with nothing to stop them, is your argument. Dear god, why? Why even bother playing EVE with that logic? My previous post had the point that fun and achievement are only felt when there is an actual risk component in what is being done. If there is no risk of failure or loss, then what victory or achievement do you even have? So wardec a corp that will fight back? Of if it's industrialists who are competing with your interests, just suicide gank their mining ships and transports and be done with it: no need for a wardec. Wardecs are apparently fun to a great many people who don't want that sense of achievement from facing risk and coming out on top. I didn't say that I like the ability for corps to escape wardecs, but neither do I like the ability for griefers to serial-wardec individual players to basically force them out of the game. Where do you draw the line? Drawing the line on the side where people can avoid wardecs makes more sense to me than drawing it on the side where people get to grief others out of the game. The wardeccer isn't trying to force the opponent "out of the game" - that entire concept, the idea that "wardecs are bad for eve" is complete garbage. It is perpetuated by risk averse mewlers so their argument looks a little better than "well, I just don't like it." OP is exactly right. There is NO REASON at all that a pure mining corp SHOULD exist in a game that is based on conflict and risk:reward. If a corp collapses at the first sign of any threat, then that is Darwinism within eve and that corp SHOULD have collapsed. I've shut down corps of miners using a one man wardec corp, a corp with one character a handful of weeks old. All the bears would have needed to do to carry on mining is put a couple of combat ships in the belt with them and I'd be ******. Instead, they ran away crying to CCP. Why? Because they DON'T WANT TO FIGHT. The argument here, boiled down, is always the same. "In a game where anything can happen there are things I don't want to happen, but will take no effort to stop and complain and complain and complain until it does or I will quit." The harsh news, is those people should quit. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
Lance Valerien House of Valerien 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:54:00 - [266] - Quote Wow. You seriously spent all that time writing that?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1268	Posted - 2012.04.27 12:59:00 - [267] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: I've shut down corps of miners using a one man wardec corp, a corp with one character a handful of weeks old. All the bears would have needed to do to carry on mining is put a couple of combat ships in the belt with them and I'd be ******. How quickly would your 1-person corp explode to become a 10-person corp if the mining corporation was foolish enough to put two or three combat ships in the belts? How many logistics boats does it take to repair a Hulk through an alpha gank? The miners are staying cooped up in station because they know your silly tricks.
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1581	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:01:00 - [268] - Quote Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad. I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then ** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!**
Invitus Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 16	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:05:00 - [269] - Quote Congrats sir, You have caused 14 pages of pubbie tears about how wrong you are. My favourite is the one that complains about how a one man corp can wardec and ruin a mining corp: Takseen wrote: :words: Then there's the fact that its a totally assymetric war. How would the miners strike back against a one man corp, when your combat pilot only joined right before striking? The whole thing is a bad joke, and I hope the next expansion improves things. He clearly didn't read the bit about defending your miners. Some skillpoints in PvP would really help him out. However, a request for next time, please don't sign your post.
Red Jack Sokarad Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Friends Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:26:00 - [270] - Quote My sword is the Tornado My shield is 10-hour heroes My armor is one-man alt corps Suffer not the carebear to live. In the capsuleer's name, let none survive.
Phugoid BHEI Galactic Construction 14	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:32:00 - [271] - Quote Can u say that again...I missed it? U mean The Mittani is really a carebear miner? -áObergruppenfuhrer
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:34:00 - [272] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad. I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then ** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself. It's not really a sandbox when ccp is constantly changing the rules to protect/shield carebears. It's not a sandbox AT ALL! It's a single player game. The reality is this. carebears are like the Ebola Virus, they enter a game and it's all over. For the last 15 years, they **** up every single game... they always start playing games they don't like, and always, ALWAYS, try and change them, until the game fits their "carebear" needs. At that point, the game is dead. Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery 1084	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:35:00 - [273] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Khanh'rhh wrote: I've shut down corps of miners using a one man wardec corp, a corp with one character a handful of weeks old. All the bears would have needed to do to carry on mining is put a couple of combat ships in the belt with them and I'd be ******. How quickly would your 1-person corp explode to become a 10-person corp if the mining corporation was foolish enough to put two or three combat ships in the belts? How many logistics boats does it take to repair a Hulk through an alpha gank? The miners are staying cooped up in station because they know your silly tricks. Hisec wardecs are one-sided jokes upon PvP. So the mechanics ALWAYS favor one person acting alone? None of the above can possibly be countered? This is the kind of risk averse mewling I am talking about. "I can't do this because of fear of irrational threat x" If I am suddenly 10 people and not one, then WOW you lost 2 combat ships. THEN you can QQ about it and decide whether you can carry on or not. Until then you are sitting in a station, crying, and letting your fear of something unlikely to be true control your actions. Which is my point. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1269	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:36:00 - [274] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: The wardeccer isn't trying to force the opponent "out of the game" - that entire concept, the idea that "wardecs are bad for eve" is complete garbage. It is perpetuated by risk averse mewlers so their argument looks a little better than "well, I just don't like it." I'm not arguing that wardecs are "bad for EVE". Please don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm arguing that there are a group of people in EVE ("griefers") who enjoy tormenting other players and driving them out of the game. These people abuse whatever mechanics are available to them to attack the other players. CCP has rules about harassment of other players, and part of the problem with dec shields and dec shedding was that the wardeccing party would try persecuting the war upon their targets through a dozen shields and sheds, then complain that they weren't allowed to pick on the other player. Your assertion that the people who are being harassed are "mewlers" is indicative of the mindset that tends towards grief play. There is a difference between PvP (consensual or not) and grief play: at some point, the other party says, "I don't want to play with you anymore", and yet you continue to beat them up. When the other party wusses out of a fight, it's not up to CCP to force them to fight you, it's up to you to find a new target who will actually put up a fight. In the meantime, continuing to gank hisec miners is not going to solve the problems that are caused by hisec miners. There are game design and economic issues to address, which suicide ganking doesn't address in the slightest. There's a lesson that many "PvPers" need to learn from dogs playing with their puppies. Watch the adults playing with the puppies some time: they'll have mock fights and tugs of war. You can participate if you learn how: you have to put up a fight, but only bring as much fight as a puppy can handle. You also need to back down sometimes to give the puppy the experience of "winning". When you play tug-of-war, you pull back (and make a big show of how hard you have to fight that little puppy) and give back. By playing with the puppy this way, you'll maintain the puppy's interest in keeping this activity up. As the puppy gets bigger, you can get more forceful, and you gradually "play" less and "fight" more. Of course, you could just bring 100% fight right from the beginning, but that will just squash any hope that the puppy had of finding a friend. The puppy will grow up to be resentful and violent, and that puppy will never be your friend. So here we have the "puppies" of New Eden being introduced to PvP by having their glorious mining machine blown up from underneath them. The Elite PvPer offers no condolences, no advice, no compensation. And you then wonder why they are resentful and distrusting? Yes, they should HTFU, but they need to be weaned into it. You don't dump someone in the deep end of a pool and tell them, "learn to swim, ya bastard". That's a great way to make people terrified of the water, if they don't drown. One reason I steer PvP-curious people towards RvB is that they have a relatively controlled environment for learning the ropes in PvP. They can fly frigates with low skills and still be useful. They can have fun without having to be aware of the issues in fleet fights involving battleships, fighters, fighter-bombers, warp disruption bubbles, and so forth. RvB is simultaneously serious PvP, and puppy play. There are rules about RvB fights, but there are also Purple Fleet fights where RvB unites and heads off to low sec and null sec to try it on with the locals. So please try to understand that there is no black and white in the "wardecs are good or evil" argument. There are only shades of grey. EVE is a harsh world where new players are basically thrown in the deep end and given some very basic instructions on how to avoid drowning, then sent off with the football team to engage in an ultraviolent game of water polo. People like you are exactly the reason that so many hisec dwellers are PvP-averse. They never get a "fair" fight. Your one-man corp turns into ten sometime between the victim committing to a fight and that fight actually happening. Then there are the aggression tricks like warp-scramming the jet can and self destructing your ship to trigger a CONCORD attack against that guy whose can you flipped half an hour ago. How is a new player supposed to cope with all these hidden rules that make absolutely no sense at all? What about the simpler rules like: when that guy flips your can, only the person who jettisoned that can is allowed to shoot back, but when that shot is fired, the flipper's entire corporation can shoot back at the shooter, but the victim's corp has to wait for the flipper's corp to start shooting before they can join the fight. The new player is stuck here: If hisec is that complicated, HOW THE DEVIL AM I SUPPOSED TO SURVIVE IN LOWSEC OR NULLSEC? Now that CCP is trying to simplify aggression mechanics and wardecs, you "Elite" PvPers are all complaining "waaah, dumbing the game down! waaah! CCP is removing PvP!" (that is what the entirety of the OP's 18 original posts boil down to). If CCP really wanted to remove PvP, they'd lock your weapons so you couldn't shoot people in hisec. The fact that they haven't done that should be more than enough evidence that CCP are committed to keeping PvP alive in this harsh, cruel world that they have built. Simplified aggression mechanics and wardecs will remove all the arcane rules about who is allowed to shoot who, and at what point CONCORD will intervene, what crimes will attract the attention of the local police, yadda yadda. With the simplification, PvP becomes easier to grok, and people will not be so fearful of low sec and null sec.
Daesul ShadoWind tlhlnag wo space weaponry and trade 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:37:00 - [275] - Quote I'm starting to wonder if any of you guys even watched the keynotes for fanfest. From what I took from the keynotes about the new crimewatch. If anything there going to make PVP easier in highsec by making crime watch KILL you only after you make the kill. You can ransom, shoot, warp jam but this all Flags you under suspect with the new crime watch and are allowed to be attacked by the player involved and his corporation or fleet. When you make the kill, then you receive the GCC. I may be wrong about it, but go watch the Fanfest keynotes yourself, or at least listen to them in the background.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1269	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:38:00 - [276] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: Until then you are sitting in a station, crying, and letting your fear of something unlikely to be true control your actions. Show me a hisec wardec corp that doesn't use neutral reps as a matter of course. Hell, most people will laugh and say that if you're not using neutral reps, you're doing it wrong. Show me a hisec wardec corp that doesn't "sniff out" the victim corp by starting a wardec with a smaller contingent and then adding more pilots to the corp once the victim has shown some fight? Your suggestion that these things are "unlikely" is out of touch with what actually happens in hisec wardecs. The reason people are fearful of these things happening is that these things happen so often as to be expected.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:48:00 - [277] - Quote Xython wrote: I Love Boobies wrote: OP has a lot of time on his hands... and really should seek some counseling because he is taking internet spaceships WAY too serious. So you don't actually have anything to contribute to the conversation other than "lol I'm a 13 year old who can't read?" Good to know, I guess. Coming from a Goon I bet that stings Were it a "well written" example of anti goon/0.0 propaganda you guys would be swarming over it saying the same things the carebears are lol Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1273	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:56:00 - [278] - Quote Daesul ShadoWind wrote: If anything there going to make PVP easier in highsec by making crime watch KILL you only after you make the kill. You can ransom, shoot, warp jam but this all Flags you under suspect with the new crime watch and are allowed to be attacked by the player involved and his corporation or fleet. When you make the kill, then you receive the GCC. I may be wrong about it, but go watch the Fanfest keynotes yourself, or at least listen to them in the background. The basics of CCP Greyscale's abominable presentation were: (1) he hadn't quite thought it through, (2) if you can flip, you're flagged as a "suspect" for anyone to shoot, (3) if anyone shoots you, they are flagged as a suspect too, and (4) if you commit an unlawful aggression, you will be CONCORDED. Of course, CCP Greyscale didn't confess that he was just at the "idea gathering" stage until the presentation was finished and people started asking questions. But that's just the way CCP Greyscale rolls (God bless his little uncommunicative socks). The idea with "suspect" flagging was that anyone who wants to shoot you can do so, but then that person will become a "suspect" themselves. So there will be plenty of opportunity for grief play under the new system, with fewer stupid surprises such as "oh hey, your aggression timer ran out 15 minutes ago, but when you undock CONCORD FROM FRICKING NOWHERE!" Under the new system, you'll bait someone (anyone, please just shoot me, I dare you!) and when they shoot you, all your friends will shoot them back. POW! RIGHT IN GÇª bah, I've used that one tonight already. So just in the same way that "please CCP make the can flippers a valid target for me to shoot" blew up in the care bear's faces (mission ganking, anyone?), so too will the new "I'm safe because anyone can shoot them" rules.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2012.04.27 13:59:00 - [279] - Quote Vaju Enki wrote: Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis... funny I yahoo searched for it and its still "available now" But then when did that game come out? Cause time has a tendancy to kill games too, not JUST carebear tears. Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
sYnc Vir Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession 185	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:02:00 - [280] - Quote Of the many people that didn't read all your post, I'd like to say, You are still an idiot. Continue on.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 65	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:02:00 - [281] - Quote Where do I fit in? I never tank my hulk, I ONLY mine in system where theres NOONE ELSE there and do my homework to find such systems. Ive been in the game since 2005 (on a main) and have never had a Hulk ATTACKED much less killed by a ganker. Then again, WERE I to lose a Hulk to a ganker Id suck it up and move on not QQ to CCP to fix the problem cause it was my fault not theirs that I lost it Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Jafit Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 106	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:04:00 - [282] - Quote TL;DR: Eve has problems.
Lharanai Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N 146	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:04:00 - [283] - Quote oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me. some things the OP seems to have forgotten 1. EVE IS A GAME 2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums 3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE 4. EVE IS A GAME 5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears 7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum. Touch my ** and I will your with an rusty and into your , and then I will your until you ******************
sYnc Vir Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession 185	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:07:00 - [284] - Quote Daesul ShadoWind wrote: I'm starting to wonder if any of you guys even watched the keynotes for fanfest. From what I took from the keynotes about the new crimewatch. If anything there going to make PVP easier in highsec by making crime watch KILL you only after you make the kill. You can shoot, warp jam but this all Flags you under suspect with the new crime watch and are allowed to be attacked by the player involved and his corporation or fleet. When you make the kill, then you receive the GCC. I may be wrong about it, but go watch the Fanfest keynotes yourself, or at least listen to them in the background. That was for LOW SEC, pretty sure in high sec pressing F1 brings Concord no matter what.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 65	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:08:00 - [285] - Quote Daesul ShadoWind wrote: I'm starting to wonder if any of you guys even watched the keynotes for fanfest. From what I took from the keynotes about the new crimewatch. If anything there going to make PVP easier in highsec by making crime watch KILL you only after you make the kill. You can shoot, warp jam but this all Flags you under suspect with the new crime watch and are allowed to be attacked by the player involved and his corporation or fleet. When you make the kill, then you receive the GCC. I may be wrong about it, but go watch the Fanfest keynotes yourself, or at least listen to them in the background. I was under the understanding it would make more PVP in highsec as well whereas something about you get a GCC than everyone can shoot you. PVPers should love that idea is what theyre ACTUALLY looking for are good fights and not baseball batting puppies (like they say that dont want) I think Im making sense but if Im not, its the oxycodone. I had a large piece of bone removed from my forearm tuesday, sorry lol Lharanai wrote: oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me. some things the OP seems to have forgotten 1. EVE IS A GAME 2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums 3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE 4. EVE IS A GAME 5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears 7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum. the repeated bits are why I keep telling ppl they need to step back from the keyboard lest they do something truely stupid. D&D in the 60's or '70's type stupid. The reason religious groups hate all RPGs now type stupid Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1273	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:08:00 - [286] - Quote Image Nalelmir wrote: It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly. The "nerfs" you speak of only curtailed the excessive abuse of certain mechanics. Suicide ganking is slightly harder in that you have to actually plan your ganks. But it is still quite possible to solo-gank a Hulk in hisec with a destroyer. Use two destroyers if you're not 100% confident. I believe you are correct on the economy side of things though: hisec activities offer far to high an income. People should be rewarded for taking the risk to live elsewhere. This is why reactions, reverse engineering and drug manufacturing can only happen outside high sec. This is why capital ships and super capital ships can only be manufactured outside high sec. This is why Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite can only be found outside hisec. This is why hisec PI is low yield and heavily taxed, while yield increases dramatically and taxes are imposed by players at their discretion outside hisec. The best way to "punish" the care bear miners is to reduce the profitability of the hisec activities that they participate in the most. They will follow the profit, as the OP indicated. The removal of drone poo is the greatest shot in the arm CCP could ever have given to the mining profession. Now they just need to reverse the ore spawn boost from back in the Unholy Rage campaign and we'll be all set. Well, I'd like to see the further restriction of mid-range ores to low sec, but that's just me being a machiavellian BOFH.
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1584	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:09:00 - [287] - Quote Vaju Enki wrote: Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad. I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then ** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself. It's not really a sandbox when ccp is constantly changing the rules to protect/shield carebears. It's not a sandbox AT ALL! It's a single player game. The reality is this. carebears are like the Ebola Virus, they enter a game and it's all over. For the last 15 years, they ** up every single game... they always start playing games they don't like, and always, ALWAYS, try and change them, until the game fits their "carebear" needs. At that point, the game is dead. Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis... Then you clearly do not know what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox has walls. It is a box. Within the box there is sand of which you may do whatever you want. In other words you have rules to follow but within those rules you can do whatever you want. That is a sandbox. EVE is a sandbox game. Yes...the rules change but that does not change the fact that it is still a sandbox. There is nothing that has changed that doesn't make sense. You are just butthurt that you can't be a pirate as easily anymore. You were making ISK at no risk beyond what you already planned for at the expense of other players that are defenseless. Now that the rules are tweaked to make things harder for you, you want to complain. It is that simple. The carebears aren't ruining anything. They are playing the game how they want in the relative "safety" of High Sec. They happen to make the wheels of EVE turn. Without them you would be paying a lot more for your throwaway ships that you gank them with. Then your piracy would be nowhere near as profitable and you would lose out. Those miners do more for this game than you do killing ships. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!**
Sverige Pahis Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation 1026	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:10:00 - [288] - Quote Lharanai wrote: oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me. some things the OP seems to have forgotten 1. EVE IS A GAME 2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums 3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE 4. EVE IS A GAME 5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears 7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum. You didn't really read it, did you.
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery 1084	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:12:00 - [289] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: There's a lesson that many "PvPers" need to learn from dogs playing with their puppies. Watch the adults playing with the puppies some time: they'll have mock fights and tugs of war. You can participate if you learn how: you have to put up a fight, but only bring as much fight as a puppy can handle. You also need to back down sometimes to give the puppy the experience of "winning". When you play tug-of-war, you pull back (and make a big show of how hard you have to fight that little puppy) and give back. By playing with the puppy this way, you'll maintain the puppy's interest in keeping this activity up. I'm just going to stop you right there. My "one man wardec with a very very low SP alt" is EXACTLY this scenario, except rather than "playing" weak I am deliberately handicapping myself to bring myself to a manageable level for the opponent. You then claim a dozen reasons why this isn't true and blah blah blah greifers. They get council from carebear sages (such as yourself) to evade-evade-evade-decshield-dock-hide-dontfight-run! Some will then smacktalk you along the lines of "lol you waste your ISK coming for us, decshields OP lol!!" and the like. At which point, I will do absolutely everything to grind them down, because nothing is so pathetic as to run and taunt and think you can get away with it. Quite literally, the reason carebears get griefed is because they're carebears. Their risk aversion and mewling (yes, they do mewl) attract predators by the dozens. I once wardecced a corp like this to find out they already had EIGHT wardecs against them. Why? Because when your only action is to try to run, flee and evade you wake up the predatory instinct in the aggressor. You are, absolutely, saying that "I am an easy victim." Carebears don't get griefed because they mine, they get griefed because they are content with playing the punching bag. If you really wanted to stop miners getting shat all over, you would do ANYTHING but tell them to run evasion tactics. Especially the ones that are borderline-exploits. Quote: What about the simpler rules like: when that guy flips your can, only the person who jettisoned that can is allowed to shoot back, but when that shot is fired, the flipper's entire corporation can shoot back at the shooter, but the victim's corp has to wait for the flipper's corp to start shooting before they can join the fight You have it EXACTLY backwards. When you flip a can, the can owners entire corp can stomp on the solo aggressor at will. When the flipper is shot, he can only return fire on those who shot him. Sadly you don't even understand what you're talking about, so like most, you would rather err on the side of extreme caution and play the victim, forever making up reasons why that is the case. The aggression rules mentioned above are explained in the wiki and are written on the warning popup when you steal from a can. Even when the rules are stacked in your favor, you are still telling me reasons you can't do anything about it. Astounding. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:14:00 - [290] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis... funny I yahoo searched for it and its still "available now" But then when did that game come out? Cause time has a tendancy to kill games too, not JUST carebear tears. Learn to read? Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...
Lharanai Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N 146	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:14:00 - [291] - Quote @Sverige I did, you know I am one of these person who actually read contracts, agreements and manuals (RTFM) in full...and now my head hurts :) Touch my ** and I will your with an rusty and into your , and then I will your until you ******************
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1273	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:19:00 - [292] - Quote sYnc Vir wrote: That was for LOW SEC, pretty sure in high sec pressing F1 brings Concord no matter what. In hisec it was "innocent" -> "suspect" -> "criminal". Where "innocent" means "shooting them brings CONCORD response", "suspect" means "you can shoot/repair them, but then you become a suspect", and "criminal" means, "please wait, your call is important to us, CONCORD will be along shortly to remind you not to do naughty things." The more I think about it, the more I like CCP Greyscale's idea. I will see my psychiatrist in the morning to sort it out though. But the idea is nice and simple: entirely broken and thoroughly exploitable, but at least it's broken in ways that are easy to understand. No more surprise visits from CONCORD when you haven't even had an aggression timer for 15 minutes.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 65	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:20:00 - [293] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Image Nalelmir wrote: It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly. The "nerfs" you speak of only curtailed the excessive abuse of certain mechanics. Suicide ganking is slightly harder in that you have to actually plan your ganks. But it is still quite possible to solo-gank a Hulk in hisec with a destroyer. Use two destroyers if you're not 100% confident. I believe you are correct on the economy side of things though: hisec activities offer far to high an income. People should be rewarded for taking the risk to live elsewhere. This is why reactions, reverse engineering and drug manufacturing can only happen outside high sec. This is why capital ships and super capital ships can only be manufactured outside high sec. This is why Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite can only be found outside hisec. This is why hisec PI is low yield and heavily taxed, while yield increases dramatically and taxes are imposed by players at their discretion outside hisec. The best way to "punish" the care bear miners is to reduce the profitability of the hisec activities that they participate in the most. They will follow the profit, as the OP indicated. The removal of drone poo is the greatest shot in the arm CCP could ever have given to the mining profession. Now they just need to reverse the ore spawn boost from back in the Unholy Rage campaign and we'll be all set. Well, I'd like to see the further restriction of mid-range ores to low sec, but that's just me being a machiavellian BOFH. what are the anti ganking nerfs that have been put into effect lately? The only real one I know of was the insurance thing but EVERY GANKER EVER says that wasnt imporant anyways or thats what they kept saying after the change was made. They made tier 3 BCs with battleship guns and no tank to speak of. They are in effect ganking role ships. Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Ishukone Agent Ishukone Regional Headquarters 2	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:21:00 - [294] - Quote To the OP: You need to get out more. Get a girlfriend, raise a family, go for higher education, anything to put this game into perspective.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 65	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:22:00 - [295] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad. I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then ** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself. It's not really a sandbox when ccp is constantly changing the rules to protect/shield carebears. It's not a sandbox AT ALL! It's a single player game. The reality is this. carebears are like the Ebola Virus, they enter a game and it's all over. For the last 15 years, they **** up every single game... they always start playing games they don't like, and always, ALWAYS, try and change them, until the game fits their "carebear" needs. At that point, the game is dead. Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis... Then you clearly do not know what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox has walls. It is a box. Within the box there is sand of which you may do whatever you want. In other words you have rules to follow but within those rules you can do whatever you want. That is a sandbox. EVE is a sandbox game. Yes...the rules change but that does not change the fact that it is still a sandbox. There is nothing that has changed that doesn't make sense. You are just butthurt that you can't be a pirate as easily anymore. You were making ISK at no risk beyond what you already planned for at the expense of other players that are defenseless. Now that the rules are tweaked to make things harder for you, you want to complain. It is that simple. The carebears aren't ruining anything. They are playing the game how they want in the relative "safety" of High Sec. They happen to make the wheels of EVE turn. Without them you would be paying a lot more for your throwaway ships that you gank them with. Then your piracy would be nowhere near as profitable and you would lose out. Those miners do more for this game than you do killing ships. Sandbox game: Minecraft. Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 65	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:23:00 - [296] - Quote Sverige Pahis wrote: Lharanai wrote: oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me. some things the OP seems to have forgotten 1. EVE IS A GAME 2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums 3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE 4. EVE IS A GAME 5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears 7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum. You didn't really read it, did you. Is that post the collective work of the Hive? Cause it seems you guys have a serious crush on the OP otherwise Vaju Enki wrote: Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis... funny I yahoo searched for it and its still "available now" But then when did that game come out? Cause time has a tendancy to kill games too, not JUST carebear tears. Learn to read? Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis... ah so YOU dont like it which means its ruined? QQ moar Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Velicitia Open Designs 884	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:26:00 - [297] - Quote Sirhan Blixt wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Like it or not Eve is an interesting subject, hell people have written economic papers on the game's economy, it stands to reason that on occasion people should write essays on the design philosophies of it's creators. NO I DO NOT LIKE IT RAAAAAAR MUST RAGE ABOUT BIG WORDS I CAN'T READ NOW Seriously, kids: if you can't be arsed to do that much reading, you really don't belong on the internet. I agree with a goon -- eve must be dying! If you get a chance, thank Mittens for Jita and HAG. edit -- @ the OP, I read about half of it, then :work: ... will finish later.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:33:00 - [298] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Sirhan Blixt wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Like it or not Eve is an interesting subject, hell people have written economic papers on the game's economy, it stands to reason that on occasion people should write essays on the design philosophies of it's creators. NO I DO NOT LIKE IT RAAAAAAR MUST RAGE ABOUT BIG WORDS I CAN'T READ NOW Seriously, kids: if you can't be arsed to do that much reading, you really don't belong on the internet. I agree with a goon -- eve must be dying! If you get a chance, thank Mittens for Jita and HAG. edit -- @ the OP, I read about half of it, then :work: ... will finish later. Theres giant amounts of irony with Goons qqing cause ppl cant be bothered to read their 19 page rant Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Kinooe Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:37:00 - [299] - Quote You are: very smart, very well spoken and a genius on sociology /Hemmo Paskiainen
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 482	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:41:00 - [300] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: Carebears don't get griefed because they mine, they get griefed because they are content with playing the punching bag. If you really wanted to stop miners getting shat all over, you would do ANYTHING but tell them to run evasion tactics. Especially the ones that are borderline-exploits. Aww come on now, CCP said it's perfectly fine. Eagerly awaiting for suicide ganking to become a bannable exploit. <3 Which it might well be soon enough... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
deadmaus hirr Against ALL Authorities 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:45:00 - [301] - Quote Ah James, glad to see you are still around. Your posts on "Why Is BoB Losing" were true genius that I and many others enjoyed reading ( still do for nostalgia) back in the day. Not sure about this manifesto but still like your writing style. cheers
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 497	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:48:00 - [302] - Quote you and everyone who liked your post are literally terrorists. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast.
Psychotic Monk The Skunkworks 230	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:50:00 - [303] - Quote Read it all. Loved it all. Gave every post a space-like. They're in a game where they're ostensibly immortal pod pilots in command of the greatest machines in existence and not only are they limiting theirselves to stacking pebbles, but they want to limit everyone else to doing the same.
Whambot Caldari Provisions Caldari State 29	Posted - 2012.04.27 14:57:00 - [304] - Quote Wait... EVE is an internet spaceship game right? And how many hours were wasted putting this together?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 482	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:07:00 - [305] - Quote Psychotic Monk wrote: Read it all. Loved it all. Gave every post a space-like. They're in a game where they're ostensibly immortal pod pilots in command of the greatest machines in existence and not only are they limiting theirselves to stacking pebbles, but they want to limit everyone else to doing the same. Stacking pebbles you say. Quite a fitting analogy Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 66	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:09:00 - [306] - Quote Given that every thread mentioning the Goons gets locked today lets try that... Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
FOl2TY8 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 18	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:10:00 - [307] - Quote Ha good post OP.
Velicitia Open Designs 884	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:13:00 - [308] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Psychotic Monk wrote: Read it all. Loved it all. Gave every post a space-like. They're in a game where they're ostensibly immortal pod pilots in command of the greatest machines in existence and not only are they limiting theirselves to stacking pebbles, but they want to limit everyone else to doing the same. Stacking pebbles you say. Quite a fitting analogy I like stacking pebbles ... right before super-heating them and launching them at near-c speeds into someone's hull
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:15:00 - [309] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking. So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much? I think you got economy right the opposite way it works. Not to miners, to high sec miners. Although personally I think the better approach would be to nerf their ability to evade war decs, and possibly turn back some of the ganking nerfs. Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 482	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:16:00 - [310] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: Psychotic Monk wrote: Read it all. Loved it all. Gave every post a space-like. They're in a game where they're ostensibly immortal pod pilots in command of the greatest machines in existence and not only are they limiting theirselves to stacking pebbles, but they want to limit everyone else to doing the same. Stacking pebbles you say. Quite a fitting analogy I like stacking pebbles ... right before super-heating them and launching them at near-c speeds into someone's hull Hm, you like railguns huh? Are they good after the whole hybrid changes? My only contact with them is in ratting. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Cristl Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:18:00 - [311] - Quote Heh. What's up with you Jimbo, cat got your tongue? After dusting it off, crashing Bob's party disco style.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 482	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:18:00 - [312] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking. So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much? I think you got economy right the opposite way it works. Not to miners, to high sec miners. Although personally I think the better approach would be to nerf their ability to evade war decs, and possibly turn back some of the ganking nerfs. Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. I wouldn't worry about that too much. Perhaps we should suggest to CCP even bigger and more expensive mining ships with mre yield. Sure, their real income might not rise much, but you see where we're going with this, since ships have a fixed mineral cost. P.S. Ship construction wasn't the point so much as destruction. Heh. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Lazarus 2010 PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:19:00 - [313] - Quote Wow. That totally reminded me of that time I mistakenly tried to cat a binary file.
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 60	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:19:00 - [314] - Quote OP is in an NPC corp posting about carebears ruining eve.
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 730	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:22:00 - [315] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. "It's ok that we bot and use cheat programs to prevent us from ever having to face death, because THE ECONOMY NEEDS US."
Velicitia Open Designs 886	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:28:00 - [316] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Velicitia wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: Psychotic Monk wrote: Read it all. Loved it all. Gave every post a space-like. They're in a game where they're ostensibly immortal pod pilots in command of the greatest machines in existence and not only are they limiting theirselves to stacking pebbles, but they want to limit everyone else to doing the same. Stacking pebbles you say. Quite a fitting analogy I like stacking pebbles ... right before super-heating them and launching them at near-c speeds into someone's hull Hm, you like railguns huh? Are they good after the whole hybrid changes? My only contact with them is in ratting. Yeah, though I'm actually partial to the blasters. Anyway, hybrids are a lot better than they used to be. I don't think they're really gonna be found in "big fleet" fights any time soon, but that's more a failing of the hulls than anything. Would be really nice to see Gallente hulls get silly fast ... but extremely clumsy (i.e. sure, you can go 3k m/sec in a straight line, but you have to practically stop in order to turn)
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 658	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:32:00 - [317] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Well the truth is Eve is pretty ******* dull now. There is a massive culture of entitlement, even though it has become easier and easier to avoid PvP. The conclusion is inevitable, nothing good is happening to PvP in Eve. Nothing good has happened to PvP in Eve in a long time. If anything the OP is limited in his scope when he describes the issues player entitlement has put on the Eve "sandbox", it is hardly even fit to call a sand box anymore. We have reached the point where an intelligent player can make as much ISK as they want, and realistically never expect to lose a ship. This is not the Eve online that a lot of us signed up for. Hi seccers are a non factor and the true content in EvE has mainly come from alliances warfare, some epic kill mails, some epic scams. The fact EvE turned into a boring turd is certainly not because of those non factors, kill mails still happen, epic scams too. So what degenerated here? Not the non factor hi seccers but the giant "do nothing ever" NAPS and crap. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Xutech GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 163	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:33:00 - [318] - Quote A well written and eloquent article.
Whambot Caldari Provisions Caldari State 29	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:40:00 - [319] - Quote Xython wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. "It's ok that we bot and use cheat programs to prevent us from ever having to face death, because THE ECONOMY NEEDS US." And every miner in sec above 0.5 is a botter? Not all of us are goons who are handed everything for free when we join. (and they think highseccers are coddled LOL) The only bots I've seen recently are the Mittens bots sitting in Jita bored
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery 1084	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:43:00 - [320] - Quote I love this article : http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-27-ccp-players-attempt-to-destroy-eve-online-economy-is-f-ing-brilliant Soundwave & Unifex think burn Jita is awesome. Maybe there is hope. Boooo dooo deeeee de de booo deooo bee doooo dee dooo bee dooo be-de-de-de-dooooo - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
Viscount Hood Gallivanting Travel Company Luna Sanguinem 23	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:46:00 - [321] - Quote OP has too much time on his hands.. Too long.. Post is not worth reading.
J Kunjeh 402	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:47:00 - [322] - Quote Jason McCoy wrote: Get a life, eve is a hobby FFS! Your sentence, it contradicts itself. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á
Velicitia Open Designs 886	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:49:00 - [323] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: I wouldn't worry about that too much. Perhaps we should suggest to CCP even bigger and more expensive mining ships with mre yield. Sure, their real income might not rise much, but you see where we're going with this, since ships have a fixed mineral cost. P.S. Ship construction wasn't the point so much as destruction. Heh. No. We (yeah, I mine, get over it) don't need anything "new" in that regard. Fully decked out (T2 fit hulk, Michi's implant, Highwall implant, T2-fit rorq with max-skilled booster), you're looking at a SINGLE hulk dragging in 3000~3500 m3 of ore per minute. Using these numbers, and buying the mega (since I don't know how "easy" it is to find in lowsec grav sites), it will take just about 7.5 man-hours to mine for an Abaddon* (hull only, no fittings), assuming you're in 0.2 or 0.1 space (if you're in 0.3 or 0.4, the mineral distribution changes, and you'd be SOL in Minnie space since you only get Kernite). Now, we're in lowsec, with a Rorqual (hopefully in a POS), and probably have a few scouts a few jumps out watching gates, with a token defence fleet in the mining system ... so it's reasonable to assume that there are at least enough people in the belts to warrant these resources being brought to bear, and that you're going to have the materials for an Abaddon every 60-90 minutes or so. *Using Abaddon because the mineral requirements are pretty much the highest of all the subcaps.
ElQuirko Gravit Negotii Rogue Elements. 615	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:49:00 - [324] - Quote You're... you're not very good at eve, are you? If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA?
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 807	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:52:00 - [325] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: You can reduce their spawn rate, reduce the yield in high sec or you could... You know... Design a war system that isn't laughably easy to bypass. Hell, you could even buff suicide ganking. So, you want to reduce the minerals produced and greatly increase supply shortage as a cure to miners earning too much? I think you got economy right the opposite way it works. Not to miners, to high sec miners. Although personally I think the better approach would be to nerf their ability to evade war decs, and possibly turn back some of the ganking nerfs. Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. Unless they become less efficient relative to another area of space. Say, null sec and low sec. Then you pay them marginally less, and miners outside of high sec slightly more. Is there something complicated about this concept? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Zimmy Zeta Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects 991	Posted - 2012.04.27 15:54:00 - [326] - Quote 3807 views already. Assuming that the average reader needed 20 minutes to read that manifesto that would be a total of 1269 hours that people spent reading this. Assuming all of them have jobs and earn an average of 12 $ per hour, that would be 15228 $ of RL currency destroyed by OP. You are taking that economical warfare thing to whole new level, James. Congratulations for a job well done. -.-
Chrisfaren Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:07:00 - [327] - Quote must be the stupidest thing I've read in a long time. U my friend have some issues.
Karl Hobb Imperial Margarine 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:13:00 - [328] - Quote Cristl wrote: Heh. What's up with you Jimbo, cat got your tongue? After dusting it off, crashing Bob's party disco style. AHAHA! Thanks for posting that! James 315, you are epic. +1 in local
Drago Palermus GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 22	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:15:00 - [329] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: How is this obvious rant not locked yet are the mods on vacation? Obviously everything that deviates from Carebear Consciousness is Thoughtcrime which must be instantly punished, right? I read this entire manifesto and it is fantastic, if slightly rambling.
Orlacc Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 132	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:17:00 - [330] - Quote Other than the "heroic goons" parts some good stuff. I love tweakers.
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 497	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:20:00 - [331] - Quote Zimmy Zeta wrote: 3807 views already. Assuming that the average reader needed 20 minutes to read that manifesto, that would be a total of 1269 hours that people spent reading this. Assuming all of them have jobs and earn an average of 12 $ per hour, that would be 15228 $ of RL currency destroyed by OP. You are taking that economical warfare thing to whole new level, James. Congratulations on a job well done. Way above top secret you are. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast.
Grim Savage suspended animations DOT None Of The Above 2	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:25:00 - [332] - Quote would read again. Grim Savage.
Drago Palermus GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 22	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:30:00 - [333] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Then you clearly do not know what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox has walls. It is a box. Within the box there is sand of which you may do whatever you want. In other words you have rules to follow but within those rules you can do whatever you want. That is a sandbox. EVE is a sandbox game. Yes...the rules change but that does not change the fact that it is still a sandbox. There is nothing that has changed that doesn't make sense. You are just butthurt that you can't be a pirate as easily anymore. You were making ISK at no risk beyond what you already planned for at the expense of other players that are defenseless. Now that the rules are tweaked to make things harder for you, you want to complain. It is that simple. The carebears aren't ruining anything. They are playing the game how they want in the relative "safety" of High Sec. They happen to make the wheels of EVE turn. Without them you would be paying a lot more for your throwaway ships that you gank them with. Then your piracy would be nowhere near as profitable and you would lose out. Those miners do more for this game than you do killing ships. Congrats, I think you "don't get it" more than any other commentator in this thread (though I admit to skipping a few pages). You're not "playing in the sandbox" if everyone else has to abide by your rules. To take the sandbox mechanic to its fullest extent then there would be NO CONCORD and the only way that you could live out your rocks-in-space fantasy would be to actually learn how to defend yourself. True anarcho-capitalism. The exact opposite of what you think "sandbox mechanics" means. (In a perfect world, CONCORD would only come to the rescue of low-SP players, or only in 1.0 space, so that those newest to the game could learn how to play without extreme grief. Otherwise, you'd be on your own.)
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:31:00 - [334] - Quote You can tell the miners from the posts they make in this thread.
Win Sui Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 63	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:33:00 - [335] - Quote Yuki 0nna wrote: Insane and ugly from start to finish. How can people work themselves up to speak this way about other human beings, fellow players? You all do know what it sounds way, way too much like, don't you? What it reeks of? Surprising the last section wasn't entitled "A Final Solution." Misquoted - attributed to doubleplesungood unperson. Ministry of Truth to rectify quote. Ministry of Love to rectify unperson.
PotatoOverdose Royal Black Watch Highlanders RISE of LEGION 77	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:34:00 - [336] - Quote TL; DR. But I agree with your sentimonies. Death to hisec miners and so forth.
Velicitia Open Designs 887	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:36:00 - [337] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: You can tell the miners from the posts they make in this thread. So what would you classify me as, hmmm?
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1586	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:45:00 - [338] - Quote Drago Palermus wrote: Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: Then you clearly do not know what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox has walls. It is a box. Within the box there is sand of which you may do whatever you want. In other words you have rules to follow but within those rules you can do whatever you want. That is a sandbox. EVE is a sandbox game. Yes...the rules change but that does not change the fact that it is still a sandbox. There is nothing that has changed that doesn't make sense. You are just butthurt that you can't be a pirate as easily anymore. You were making ISK at no risk beyond what you already planned for at the expense of other players that are defenseless. Now that the rules are tweaked to make things harder for you, you want to complain. It is that simple. The carebears aren't ruining anything. They are playing the game how they want in the relative "safety" of High Sec. They happen to make the wheels of EVE turn. Without them you would be paying a lot more for your throwaway ships that you gank them with. Then your piracy would be nowhere near as profitable and you would lose out. Those miners do more for this game than you do killing ships. Congrats, I think you "don't get it" more than any other commentator in this thread (though I admit to skipping a few pages). You're not "playing in the sandbox" if everyone else has to abide by your rules. To take the sandbox mechanic to its fullest extent then there would be NO CONCORD and the only way that you could live out your rocks-in-space fantasy would be to actually learn how to defend yourself. True anarcho-capitalism. The exact opposite of what you think "sandbox mechanics" means. (In a perfect world, CONCORD would only come to the rescue of low-SP players, or only in 1.0 space, so that those newest to the game could learn how to play without extreme grief. Otherwise, you'd be on your own.) What you don't get is that every sandbox has rules. Without rules this game wouldn't be a game at all and nobody would play it. EVE is still a sandbox game no matter how misguided your views might be on the matter. Without rules every ship would do infinite damage with infinite guns and have infinite armor flying at infinite speed with an infinite color spectrum for trails. Even then the fact that everything is infinite suggests that there are still rules. What you want is impossible. In short. You are wrong. I am also NOT a miner. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:52:00 - [339] - Quote Invitus wrote: Congrats sir, You have caused 14 pages of pubbie tears about how wrong you are. My favourite is the one that complains about how a one man corp can wardec and ruin a mining corp: Takseen wrote: :words: Then there's the fact that its a totally assymetric war. How would the miners strike back against a one man corp, when your combat pilot only joined right before striking? The whole thing is a bad joke, and I hope the next expansion improves things. He clearly didn't read the bit about defending your miners. Some skillpoints in PvP would really help him out. However, a request for next time, please don't sign your post. Yeah cheers for snipping all the relevant bits. Let's review what OP did. Took a seemingly harmless one man corp, and wardecced a bunch of industrial corps. Risk to the OP, zero, because his main char isn't even in the corp. Risk to the industrial corps, seemingly minimum. Then, at a moment of his choosing, he plops his Ishtar pilot into the wardeccing corp right before striking. If that particular mining op is sufficiently guarded that an Ishtar couldn't do any damage, all he needs do is pick another target. The end result. One pilot can cause a lot of disruption with very little personal risk. If the Ishtar pilot had to make more of a commitment, and was able to be attacked back in return, I'd be able to take him more seriously. Combat in Eve, especially when mining ships are involved, just favours the attacker too heavily for defense of mining ops to be very worthwhile. They're literally better off taking the same approach most shops and homes in real life do, hoping no one tries to rob them, and having insurance if they do.
Karl Hobb Imperial Margarine 118	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:53:00 - [340] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I am also NOT a miner. But you ARE a terrible poster. +1 in local
Benny Ohu The Lazy Dragoons True Apathy 70	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:53:00 - [341] - Quote I enjoyed reading that, thankyou
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 53	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:55:00 - [342] - Quote Righteous bump.
Richard Desturned GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 242	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:56:00 - [343] - Quote Karl Hobb wrote: Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I am also NOT a miner. But you ARE a terrible poster. And a former member of OWN Alliance, ahahahaha eh
Hamshoe School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 17	Posted - 2012.04.27 16:58:00 - [344] - Quote Drago Palermus wrote: You're not "playing in the sandbox" if everyone else has to abide by your rules. SandBOX. Rules are intrinsic.
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1586	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:00:00 - [345] - Quote Hamshoe wrote: Drago Palermus wrote: You're not "playing in the sandbox" if everyone else has to abide by your rules. SandBOX. Rules are intrinsic. This guy gets it. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1586	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:01:00 - [346] - Quote Richard Desturned wrote: Karl Hobb wrote: Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I am also NOT a miner. But you ARE a terrible poster. And a former member of OWN Alliance, ahahahaha And you are a member of Goonswarm. Much more laughable than my corp history for sure. What's your point? EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:02:00 - [347] - Quote Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote: what are the anti ganking nerfs that have been put into effect lately? The only real one I know of was the insurance thing but EVERY GANKER EVER says that wasnt imporant anyways or thats what they kept saying after the change was made. They made tier 3 BCs with battleship guns and no tank to speak of. They are in effect ganking role ships. There's also the fact that offensive dps increases have massively outstripped increases in tank for miners. T2 guns, faction ammo, artillery buffed to be alpha gods, a whole heap of different skills that can be dumped into dps increases, and not a whole lot that can increase your tank, especially passive tank. If you constantly buff a pirate's ability to lock and kill ****, and only buff a miner's mining yield, suicide ganking is just the natural progression.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 491	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:03:00 - [348] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: You can tell the miners from the posts they make in this thread. So what would you classify me as, hmmm? I didn't say anything about your posts and haven't actually read any of them. So if after reading my post you you think I'm talking about you, then you're projecting your opinions onto my post. In that case the person who thinks you're miner, or at least posts like a miner is you.
Whambot Caldari Provisions Caldari State 29	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:10:00 - [349] - Quote Zimmy Zeta wrote: 3807 views already. Assuming that the average reader needed 20 minutes to read that manifesto, that would be a total of 1269 hours that people spent reading this. Assuming all of them have jobs and earn an average of 12 $ per hour, that would be 15228 $ of RL currency destroyed by OP. You are taking that economical warfare thing to whole new level, James. Congratulations on a job well done. Those are two giant assumptions both of which are probably wrong. I dont think half the people commenting read that giant essay, myself included. Based on the amount of time the OP had to put in to making this post I'd say his life is probably a $$ faucet.
Ana Vyr Vyral Technologies 227	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:11:00 - [350] - Quote Interesting reading for sure. I guess I'm an anomoly, perhaps because of the length of time I've been playing as the OP suggests. I don't want to remove PvP from highsec, despite being an industrialist, and yes indeed, a miner. Honestly, how long to you think CCP can hold out against the droves of subscriber dollars they'd rake in if they "safezoned" highsec? We got a wee sniff of CCP's lust for money with Incarna...which was an attempt to bring in players who want something other than unrestricted PvP as the entirety of their gaming experience in EvE. You think they'll cave in anytime soon, or hold out for the niche PvP boys forever? I could care less. I'm doing my thing making stuff for you guys to blow up. Creation is so much more satisfying than destruction.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 808	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:15:00 - [351] - Quote Takseen wrote: There's also the fact that offensive dps increases have massively outstripped increases in tank for miners. T2 guns, faction ammo, artillery buffed to be alpha gods, a whole heap of different skills that can be dumped into dps increases, and not a whole lot that can increase your tank, especially passive tank. If you constantly buff a pirate's ability to lock and kill **, and only buff a miner's mining yield, suicide ganking is just the natural progression. If you continually allow everyone in high sec to easily evade war decs, and to continue earning non-meaningless amounts of ISK, then suicide ganking is the natural progression. In fact, it is the only** course of action left. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
L4ST Helios Alliance C0NVICTED 14	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:16:00 - [352] - Quote Let Highsec be safe, and make it too small to hold all players which there currently are. Safeplayers shall be safe, but without all the profit. And give more expensive Insurances with way more payout. Makes ppl care less about being blown up, even the Jews. btw lol @ all "qq u all carebears!"-guys with 5 bil+ in their wallet.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 809	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:17:00 - [353] - Quote Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I am also NOT a miner. Looks like a miner, smells like a miner, whines like a miner. Yup, seems like a pretty straight forward case of denial. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Kerist Lafayette The Lafayette Family 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:19:00 - [354] - Quote James 315 wrote: By the time you finish reading this Manifesto II, Still a virgin, I see. Well, never give up hope
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 809	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:20:00 - [355] - Quote L4ST wrote: Let Highsec be safe, and make it too small to hold all players which there currently are. Safeplayers shall be safe, but without all the profit. And give more expensive Insurances with way more payout. Makes ppl care less about being blown up, even the Jews. btw lol @ all "qq u all carebears!"-guys with 5 bil+ in their wallet. Pfft, 5b is for poor people. And none of us are denying being care bears, I even know a few goons that spend most of their time bearing it up, what we do object to is to risk averse high sec carebears that want to kill PvP and just sit in their high sec safe zones with ~~tol barad guards~~ concord fighting their fights for them. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:21:00 - [356] - Quote Drago Palermus wrote: (In a perfect world, CONCORD would only come to the rescue of low-SP players, or only in 1.0 space, so that those newest to the game could learn how to play without extreme grief. Otherwise, you'd be on your own.) And player subs would be measured in the hundreds, or at best thousands. Cast your eyes across the MMO genre, and try and spot any of them with similar engagement rules, and check their subscriber numbers. Only one I'm aware of that fits the bill is Mortal Online, and that game is tiny. Carebears keep CCP solvent, griefers make it unique and interesting. Extremists who want to cater only to one of these groups should not be catered to.
Simi Kusoni HelloKittyFanclub 809	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:23:00 - [357] - Quote Takseen wrote: Drago Palermus wrote: (In a perfect world, CONCORD would only come to the rescue of low-SP players, or only in 1.0 space, so that those newest to the game could learn how to play without extreme grief. Otherwise, you'd be on your own.) And player subs would be measured in the hundreds, or at best thousands. Cast your eyes across the MMO genre, and try and spot any of them with similar engagement rules, and check their subscriber numbers. Only one I'm aware of that fits the bill is Mortal Online, and that game is tiny. Carebears keep CCP solvent, griefers make it unique and interesting. Extremists who want to cater only to one of these groups should not be catered to. Concord was not omnipotent when Eve was created, subscriptions still rose steadily and Eve's reputation was, if anything, even greater than it is now. Eve's reputation has been damaged by every single care bear orientated expansion they have ever released, going further down that route seems unwise in the extreme. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF
Velicitia Open Designs 887	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:24:00 - [358] - Quote Vimsy Vortis wrote: Velicitia wrote: Vimsy Vortis wrote: You can tell the miners from the posts they make in this thread. So what would you classify me as, hmmm? I didn't say anything about your posts and haven't actually read any of them. So if after reading my post you you think I'm talking about you, then you're projecting your opinions onto my post. In that case the person who thinks you're miner, or at least posts like a miner is you. Nope, nothing like that at all. I happen to be a miner, but I'm definitely not one of the whiny ones that want CCP to nerf hisec into the ground so that it's a completely safe haven. I hate getting lumped in with them
Wille Sanara Felador night Corp 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:29:00 - [359] - Quote Show us on the doll, where the miners touched you.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 660	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:29:00 - [360] - Quote Xython wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. "It's ok that we bot and use cheat programs to prevent us from ever having to face death, because THE ECONOMY NEEDS US." "I can also fart unrelated crap in general directions." Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
L4ST Helios Alliance C0NVICTED 15	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:31:00 - [361] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: And none of us are denying being care bears, I even know a few goons that spend most of their time bearing it up, what we do object to is to risk averse high sec carebears that want to kill PvP and just sit in their high sec safe zones with ~~tol barad guards~~ concord fighting their fights for them. Basically my point is: Make going out on your own and fighting your own fights less destructive to your wallet and less unfair (see my edit in last post). Why would anyone want to go out there knowing that there are traps, traps, traps everywhere, without any chance for real fights, and if you lose, you lose a LOT. Whatever would fix the problem the OP stated would be a very big change to the game, so, wont really happen.
Jonah Gravenstein 213	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:33:00 - [362] - Quote ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all. I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server. Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve. If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:35:00 - [363] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Takseen wrote: There's also the fact that offensive dps increases have massively outstripped increases in tank for miners. T2 guns, faction ammo, artillery buffed to be alpha gods, a whole heap of different skills that can be dumped into dps increases, and not a whole lot that can increase your tank, especially passive tank. If you constantly buff a pirate's ability to lock and kill **, and only buff a miner's mining yield, suicide ganking is just the natural progression. If you continually allow everyone in high sec to easily evade war decs, and to continue earning non-meaningless amounts of ISK, then suicide ganking is the natural progression. In fact, it is the only** course of action left. Very true. That's a symptom of the attacker favoured war dec system. If a miner corp had more incentive to stick around and put up a fight in a defensive war, there'd be less need to rely on suicide ganks. Some ideas off the top of my head -if corps offered bonuses the longer they'd been in existence and the more activities they'd carried out, dropping corp to avoid wardecs would be less attractive. -mercenaries should be able to "guarantee the safety" of miner corps. If anyone decs the miners, they get a cheaper counter dec. -some way to force conflict. Even if it was as simple as the attacker setting up a structure, call it a flag, somewhere in highsec. If the flag gets taken out by the defenders, the attackers are forced to surrender, or maybe just financially penalised. This offers the defenders a clear way to end the way if they can gain a combat advantage, even if its just piling everyone into a bunch of rifters. Oh and you'd need to fix neutral remote reps, if they haven't already.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 661	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:37:00 - [364] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: Hi sec miners are the main low ends providers. Whatever you do to them, ANY kind of reduction of their yield, will reflect in double digits % prices increase. The less of them / the less efficient of them you get, the higher you pay them. Unless they become less efficient relative to another area of space. Say, null sec and low sec. Then you pay them marginally less, and miners outside of high sec slightly more. Is there something complicated about this concept?[/quote] Yes, the complicated concept is that you are deluded if you believe 0.0 miners with bother with Trit and Pyerite. They have ABC, they don't have endless trillions of room to store bulky low value per m3 low ends. Therefore reduce the hi sec efficiency and make me richer, since I am mining in the mineral markets and as of now just doubled the value of the stuff I am holding. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Exie Endless Possibilities Inc. 1	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:39:00 - [365] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read
Alabaster Ra Stoic Assembly Lines Trade Federation Alliance 2	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:49:00 - [366] - Quote First congrats on your orca kills. Sounds like you put a lot of time into them, so your satisfaction is understandable. The main thing I got from this however is: I'm evil. SWEET. Never fired a shot at a player and yet I'm evil. By which I of course mean, everything is going according to plan, all according to plan. To at least some extent, you are correct. I was attracted to EvE for the scandal, espionage, null sec politics, and banking scams. It just turns out that I love producing things and mining a hell of a lot more than blowing ships up. As a carebear, I will admit to wanting a safe high sec where others really can't ruin my day "for the lulz". However, I think you have over estimated the value we place on such a paradise. While it sometimes makes me drool to think about, I know that isn't EvE. I'm here because production does involve risk. I'm here because people can use the tools at their disposal for creation or destruction. In preservation of that freedom, I will never seriously ask for or expect safety. Instead, I'll happily take (and/or abuse) whatever tools CCP chooses to give me and accept what risks I must with a watchful eye on local, a pre-aligned ship, and my finger on the warp option. I'm so happy with the mineral changes I legitimately hope you pvp'rs get something nice in the coming months. I know the changes hit the smash and brawl crowd hard. Of course, whatever that change is, I'll probably be a whole lot less happy once its implemented >.>
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 243	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:51:00 - [367] - Quote Takseen wrote: Simi Kusoni wrote: Takseen wrote: There's also the fact that offensive dps increases have massively outstripped increases in tank for miners. T2 guns, faction ammo, artillery buffed to be alpha gods, a whole heap of different skills that can be dumped into dps increases, and not a whole lot that can increase your tank, especially passive tank. If you constantly buff a pirate's ability to lock and kill **, and only buff a miner's mining yield, suicide ganking is just the natural progression. If you continually allow everyone in high sec to easily evade war decs, and to continue earning non-meaningless amounts of ISK, then suicide ganking is the natural progression. In fact, it is the only** course of action left. Very true. That's a symptom of the attacker favoured war dec system. If a miner corp had more incentive to stick around and put up a fight in a defensive war, there'd be less need to rely on suicide ganks. Some ideas off the top of my head -if corps offered bonuses the longer they'd been in existence and the more activities they'd carried out, dropping corp to avoid wardecs would be less attractive. -mercenaries should be able to "guarantee the safety" of miner corps. If anyone decs the miners, they get a cheaper counter dec. -some way to force conflict. Even if it was as simple as the attacker setting up a structure, call it a flag, somewhere in highsec. If the flag gets taken out by the defenders, the attackers are forced to surrender, or maybe just financially penalised. This offers the defenders a clear way to end the way if they can gain a combat advantage, even if its just piling everyone into a bunch of rifters. Oh and you'd need to fix neutral remote reps, if they haven't already. I read the OP and then avoided the rest of the thread. Can you quote me the parts where the OP cried? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 243	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:51:00 - [368] - Quote Exie wrote: Mentorm wrote: Too Long Can't Read FYP Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Kurai Okala Okala Corp 14	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:52:00 - [369] - Quote I've never seen someone use so many words to say so little. (...and I work for the government so that's saying something) TLDR version: CCP is killing PVP and it's all the carebear's fault..
Kazacy BACKFIRE Squad S O L A R I S 20	Posted - 2012.04.27 17:52:00 - [370] - Quote to the OP: it was a long but also very good read; thank you.
Ostrine Renalard Support Operations Limited 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:06:00 - [371] - Quote I wish I could like this 1000 times
Radax Glenn Flaming Dagger 4	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:08:00 - [372] - Quote With all due respect, to the OP: Holy F*ing S*, Dude! While I can appreciate the time and effort you put into this, it has several logical fallacies, and at times it comes off as a little creepy. Not intentionally trying to flame/troll here, and it's clear you have a passionate investment in your work: but most of the arguments you listed are weak. I fully support Ganking Botters when you find them. I also agree that AFK mining should be curbed to a degree. (Meaning, if I have to run go take wizz for 2, that should be cool, but the reports I hear of people mining while AFK for hours at a time I agree need to be stopped.) I mine in hi-sec, and the gankers keep me on my toes. The gankers give an element of danger and the potential for loss on a scale the NPC rats were never intended to do in hi-sec. So, IMHO from Joe Nobody: A+ for Effort D- for Substance F for Delivery
Zordon EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:13:00 - [373] - Quote So true 315... I will stand by the believer and continue to ****, pillage, harass, and annihilate all carebears and non-believers in high-sec... Manifesto II is the NEW New Eden Bible. I shall live by the words put forth here and cleanse the filth from our servers.
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 244	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:13:00 - [374] - Quote Radax Glenn wrote: With all due respect, to the OP: Holy F*ing S*, Dude! While I can appreciate the time and effort you put into this, it has several logical fallacies, and at times it comes off as a little creepy. Not intentionally trying to flame/troll here, and it's clear you have a passionate investment in your work: but most of the arguments you listed are weak. I fully support Ganking Botters when you find them. I also agree that AFK mining should be curbed to a degree. (Meaning, if I have to run go take wizz for 2, that should be cool, but the reports I hear of people mining while AFK for hours at a time I agree need to be stopped.) I mine in hi-sec, and the gankers keep me on my toes. The gankers give an element of danger and the potential for loss on a scale the NPC rats were never intended to do in hi-sec. So, IMHO from Joe Nobody: A+ for Effort D- for Substance F for Delivery If you go AFK you run the risk of being popped. Maybe you need to be reminded of this? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Radax Glenn Flaming Dagger 4	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:21:00 - [375] - Quote Lapine Davion wrote: If you go AFK you run the risk of being popped. Maybe you need to be reminded of this? True enough. I mine in Nakugard all the time, you are more than welcome to try.
Jonah Gravenstein 214	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:26:00 - [376] - Quote Lapine Davion wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all. I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server. Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve. If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready I read the OP and then avoided the rest of the thread. Can you quote me the parts where the OP cried? Edit: FMP I was being literal, I lost enough braincells reading it the first time , I'm not doing it again. In retrospect crying was probably the wrong word to use, but along with tears it's such a fashionable word right now from both PVE and PVP sides of the arguement that I inadvertently joined the sheeple . It still made no sense but that may because my attention span wandered after about post # 6 and I started to watch my little pony on youtube to recover some sanity War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 245	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:50:00 - [377] - Quote Radax Glenn wrote: Lapine Davion wrote: If you go AFK you run the risk of being popped. Maybe you need to be reminded of this? True enough. I mine in Nakugard all the time, you are more than welcome to try. I've gone AFK while mining. Sometimes I got popped, sometimes, I didn't. If I go AFK while undocked I fully expect to be popped. If you have to go AFK, dock up. It isn't hard. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 245	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:51:00 - [378] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Lapine Davion wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: ITT Miners make the OP cry, well done miners That was quite possibly one of the longest posts I have ever seen on these forums, it also had no point and basically consisted of the OP crying that highsec kills the game while constantly avoiding making any sense at all. I'll admit to being a carebear, I used to mine but jesus breast fornicating christ it's boring, even though I'm a carebear I have no beef with PVP, it makes life interesting, it makes the game interesting, without the constant risk of PVP I may as go and play on another MMOs PVE server. Just because I don't play the way that others play doesn't make my playstyle wrong, it's just different. I'm not here to ruin the game, I'm here to have fun, if in the process of me having fun it ruins other peoples game then all I can say is welcome to Eve. If PVP players can ruin the PVE players game, PVE players should have an equal oppurtunity to ruin the PVP players game. It's a game, different people have fun in different ways, HTFU. Salt water collection receptacle at the ready I read the OP and then avoided the rest of the thread. Can you quote me the parts where the OP cried? Edit: FMP I was being literal, I lost enough braincells reading it the first time , I'm not doing it again. In retrospect crying was probably the wrong word to use, but along with tears it's such a fashionable word right now from both PVE and PVP sides of the arguement that I inadvertently joined the sheeple . It still made no sense but that may because my attention span wandered after about post # 6 and I started to watch my little pony on youtube to recover some sanity I hear Adderall does wonders for the attention span. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Jonah Gravenstein 216	Posted - 2012.04.27 18:57:00 - [379] - Quote Lapine Davion wrote: I hear Adderall does wonders for the attention span. lol, so does not being bored to tears by a long winded multipost that could have summed up in the first 3 posts. Adderall and Ritalen don't play nice with my current prescription anyway Nothing against the OP, but by gum they should consider writing speeches for politicians, they specialise at saying not a lot with an awful lot of words . Me, I prefer short, sweet and to the point. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Kale Eledar Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji 32	Posted - 2012.04.27 19:04:00 - [380] - Quote http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html time to brush up, op Also, Scholastic has competitive rates for novellas The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread
Letrange Chaosstorm Corporation 44	Posted - 2012.04.27 19:08:00 - [381] - Quote TL; NWR
Daemon Ceed Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition 64	Posted - 2012.04.27 19:13:00 - [382] - Quote OP: Dude, get a feckin' job! I feel like my eyes were viciously raped by your wall of text. You're illusion of self-importance is absurd and should be punished by constant podding. There are obvious problems, but your calls so-called "manifesto" is almost so verbose and akin to the sort of rhetoric that would even make a WWII era **** say, "TL;DR". Put down the keyboard, go outside, and find a woman who may be kind enough to grant you access to her genital region. On second thought, scratch that. I'd hate for your progeny to infest our already screwed up gene pool. Just stop posting. Post with your main or GTFO!
Mortimer Civeri Aliastra Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2012.04.27 19:14:00 - [383] - Quote "I don't like complete security, and I do like when a large group of players who live in complete security have that pulled away temporarily. It's going to be healthy." Kristoffer Touborg, on the Burn Jita campaign. I think EVE is in good hands. That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.-á Friedrich Nietzsche That which does not kill you, hurts like hell.-á UNKNOWN
Obsidian Dagger Nitrus Nine 60	Posted - 2012.04.27 19:18:00 - [384] - Quote TL:DR Got the impression of butthurtedness, and some sort of tears about miners.
Fracture Antollare The Scope Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2012.04.27 19:28:00 - [385] - Quote Post 9 - Wiled <> Whiled. If CCP wishes to make EVE into the juggernaut that WoW became, then they need to focus on making it cheaper and easier for people to engage each other. To that end, I must say this is another great series of posts.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:30:00 - [386] - Quote James 315 wrote: When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. Quoted for bump and for support. The fight begins today.
Blunt Smoker269 high times industries High Sec Dropouts 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:30:00 - [387] - Quote Too lond didn't care to read words from an alt in a NPC corp!!!!
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 484	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:39:00 - [388] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: James 315 wrote: When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. Quoted for bump and for support. The fight begins today. I don't think he wanted to play EVE. Not that kind of EVE, not that way. But that's the thing about multiplayer games. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Joe Skellington 13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary 57	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:41:00 - [389] - Quote TL;DR -á-á \|\__/\|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 484	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:46:00 - [390] - Quote Joe Skellington wrote: TL;DR No shame in not reading and just posting. This is the EVE-O Forums: General Discussion, after all. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1586	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:48:00 - [391] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: TL;DR No shame in not reading and just posting. This is the EVE-O Forums: General Discussion, after all. It was pointless drivel, not worth reading anyway. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:51:00 - [392] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: James 315 wrote: When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. Quoted for bump and for support. The fight begins today. I don't think he wanted to play EVE. Not that kind of EVE, not that way. But that's the thing about multiplayer games. I used to build big tower blocks when I was a young un. This experience was entirely satisfactory on its own, and would probably not be improved by someone knocking down my tower at a random time(I preferred to do that myself really). I've done the whole "getting emotionally involved in high-risk online worlds" thing before. Sure it provides a lot of emotion, but its not really sustainable. Eventually I realised I was never going to get to be part of the top tier who gets to inflict losses instead of sustaining them without spending thousands of RL $, so I quit.
Jiggle Physics GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 11	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:55:00 - [393] - Quote I can just taste the piteous rage of all these highsec corp posters attempting to sweep this well-argued, rational, logical, and overall high-quality thread under the rug with their barely-concealed fury in each "TL;DR". Give it a read~ you can't wallow in your ignorant and destructive ways forever!
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 487	Posted - 2012.04.27 20:58:00 - [394] - Quote Jiggle Physics wrote: I can just taste the piteous rage of all these highsec corp posters attempting to sweep this well-argued, rational, logical, and overall high-quality thread under the rug with their barely-concealed fury in each "TL;DR". Give it a read~ you can't wallow in your ignorant and destructive ways forever! Don't be silly. If they read it, they might be convicted which would have to be suppressed in order for them to ask CCP for more protection without looking guilty enough to be CONCORDed. This kind of thing, you have to look away. In real life, you'd call it extremist or whatever to make sure as many people as possible do not read it. The opposite of propaganda. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Jiggle Physics GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:03:00 - [395] - Quote But they're so defensive! I can imagine how offended they must be, that someone dares to accuse them of all people of being the real culprits behind the recent troubles in Eve's reputation. They just want to afk mine and RMT in complete invincibility, like one can in practically every other MMO on the market.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 489	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:06:00 - [396] - Quote Takseen wrote: I've done the whole "getting emotionally involved in high-risk online worlds" thing before. Sure it provides a lot of emotion, but its not really sustainable. Eventually I realised I was never going to get to be part of the top tier who gets to inflict losses instead of sustaining them without spending thousands of RL $, so I quit. Yeah. EVE is like that, there's consequences. I hear that, uh, just about every other mmo ever provides the no-losing type of gameplay you appear to be endorsing. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 489	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:08:00 - [397] - Quote Jiggle Physics wrote: But they're so defensive! I can imagine how offended they must be, that someone dares to accuse them of all people of being the real culprits behind the recent troubles in Eve's reputation. They just want to afk mine and RMT in complete invincibility, like one can in practically every other MMO on the market. Well maybe they should have asked CCP to declare anti-miner sentiments on the forums as an exploit. That's not what general discussion was intended for. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Siobhan MacLeary BRG Corp Acquisition Of Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:13:00 - [398] - Quote Wow, that was long. While I do agree that ganking hisec miners is a fun pastime for all, some of your leaps of logic are a tad too far for me to handle. Personally, I believe CCP is working towards making CONCORD unnecessary with the new wardec mechanics and can-flipping resulting in everyone being able to shoot you - there will likely be a proliferation of police corps or something, and there will also be a proliferation of people figuring out exactly which cans are worth flipping, and then doing so as fast as possible. (The previous is all speculation). Seriously, James 315, you make good points. But like your last manifesto (which I read in it's entirety), the first half was well-written and logical. However, once you finished the description of podkilling the Orca pilot, the quality of your rational thought swiftly sped downhill. Yes, the hisec miners have done quite a lot to make hisec living safer - but then, isn't it supposed to be safer than the other areas of New Eden? Hisec is the heart of Empire space, and like any long-established civilization, the desire there is not for the continual discovery available to wormhole dwellers like myself or the push and pull of capsuleer warfare in nullsec. Rather, the desire is for safety, order, and stability. Is that desire, voiced by a presumably vocal minority, strangling EVE? Possibly. However, as long as nullsec, lowsec, and w-space provide an environment for the nonconsensual PVP we all love, making hisec safer, but not completely safe, does not strike me as a threat to EVE itself.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:14:00 - [399] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Takseen wrote: I've done the whole "getting emotionally involved in high-risk online worlds" thing before. Sure it provides a lot of emotion, but its not really sustainable. Eventually I realised I was never going to get to be part of the top tier who gets to inflict losses instead of sustaining them without spending thousands of RL $, so I quit. Yeah. EVE is like that, there's consequences. I hear that, uh, just about every other mmo ever provides the no-losing type of gameplay you appear to be endorsing. Most of them don't stack things so heavily in favour of the aggressor. Or in favour of the pvper over the resource gatherer in pvp combat. That makes Eve more unique, but doesn't lend itself to people wanting to fight back.
Joe Skellington 13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary 57	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:25:00 - [400] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: TL;DR No shame in not reading and just posting. This is the EVE-O Forums: General Discussion, after all. I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. -á-á \|\__/\|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 60	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:34:00 - [401] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Jiggle Physics wrote: I can just taste the piteous rage of all these highsec corp posters attempting to sweep this well-argued, rational, logical, and overall high-quality thread under the rug with their barely-concealed fury in each "TL;DR". Give it a read~ you can't wallow in your ignorant and destructive ways forever! Don't be silly. If they read it, they might be convicted which would have to be suppressed in order for them to ask CCP for more protection without looking guilty enough to be CONCORDed. This kind of thing, you have to look away. In real life, you'd call it extremist or whatever to make sure as many people as possible do not read it. The opposite of propaganda. The truth here. Those who dont read it are pathetic. Those who disagree with the core concepts are probably idiots.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:34:00 - [402] - Quote Takseen wrote: Most of them don't stack things so heavily in favour of the aggressor. Or in favour of the pvper over the resource gatherer in pvp combat. Ah. So CCP needs to give you more concessions. Gotcha. So, should we just hop to invulnerability? PvP flags would work right? If you flag then you are gankable, otherwise "lack of pvp flag prevents you from locking that target". Using smartbombs and FoF missiles (if the latter can be used anyway) or bombs would of course be an exploit as they don't require targeting before inflicting damage. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:36:00 - [403] - Quote Joe Skellington wrote: I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. It was a really good novel. One of those "can't put it down" reads. I highly recommend to anyone who wants to continue playing EVE. Those who wish to perform the ultimate gank by causing/allowing EVE to die might wish to skip instead to: "Why Non-Consensual PvP is an Exploit: The Miners' Primer" Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Joe Skellington 13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary 57	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:40:00 - [404] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. It was a really good novel. One of those "can't put it down" reads. I highly recommend to anyone who wants to continue playing EVE. Those who wish to perform the ultimate gank by causing/allowing EVE to die might wish to skip instead to: "Why Non-Consensual PvP is an Exploit: The Miners' Primer" I don't want CCP to take out non-consensual PVP, that would make the game a totally different place than what was when I first started playing years ago. I highly doubt CCP would do that, considering it's what sets EVE apart from all the other crap out there. -á-á \|\__/\|-á -á/ @ @ \ -á-á -á( > -¦ < )-á -á`-+-+x-½-½-¦ -á-á / O \
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:43:00 - [405] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Takseen wrote: Most of them don't stack things so heavily in favour of the aggressor. Or in favour of the pvper over the resource gatherer in pvp combat. Ah. So CCP needs to give you more concessions. Gotcha. So, should we just hop to invulnerability? PvP flags would work right? If you flag then you are gankable, otherwise "lack of pvp flag prevents you from locking that target". Using smartbombs and FoF missiles (if the latter can be used anyway) or bombs would of course be an exploit as they don't require targeting before inflicting damage. Why are you so obsessed with invulnerability, when there are many other approaches to bringing some balance? I'm sure you're smart enough to think of some on your own.
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:54:00 - [406] - Quote Isn't it odd how all those Null Sec bots get Blue in Null Space. Maybe the bots have learned to send messages to innocent Null Alliances and convince the poor Null Alliance to make them Blue! How sad. Maybe the blatant and idiotic amount of botting for RMT in the Null Sec space should result.. after say 1,000 Bots to Blue.. in the banning of the RMT Alliance. I know, I know. That would ban EVERY Alliance in Null Space. Why yes it would.
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 61	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:54:00 - [407] - Quote Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 99	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:56:00 - [408] - Quote Takseen wrote: Why are you so obsessed with invulnerability, when there are many other approaches to bringing some balance? I'm sure you're smart enough to think of some on your own. The problem is the idea of false equivalency. Hisec miners are always bleating about "balance" when in fact they have been one of the most imbalanced (in their favor) recipient of buffs in eve. Ever. During Ice Interdiction, thousands of barges died. I personally slaughtered over a hundred of them over the course of weeks. Many were untanked, even weeks after we had begun and after watching dozens of their brethern die before their eyes. They believed themselves invulnerable for whatever reason. Some actually started removing their expanded cargoholds and mining upgrades, and installed tanks. They escaped the reach of the solitary ganker. They generally lived. They also consisted of a fraction of a percentage of the mining population--the rest kept repeating their same no-tank fit, as if daring us to kill them again. As if this was just a bad dream, a passing bit of bad luck, and their no-threat world would return presently. Sadly, they (eventually) were proven correct: we moved on to conquer a few nulsec regions and do housekeeping. Of course, we're coming back with a vengeance now... Jayrendo Karr wrote: Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem. What luck, Those already exist!
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 4	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:57:00 - [409] - Quote Image Nalelmir wrote: The key is to make CCP realize how one-sided the game is, currently. If it really is, of course. I, myself, have no way of knowing if it is or not, but the only people who seem to be disagreeing with you are the very people you're calling out against, so maybe there's some validity there. Here's my personal view on the matter: players should be free (well, relatively free... again, nowhere is 100% safe) from PVP if that's what they want. However, it shouldn't also be one of the absolute best ways to make ISK in the game. Risk and reward should counterbalance. Doing something, ANYTHING, somewhere that has a higher chance of getting you killed should always be more rewarding than doing the same thing somewhere with a lower risk factor. That is what seems to be unbalanced here. It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly. Finally someone (new I might add! - wow! ) who gets it. I'm re-posting a bit of my older post and clarifying it/re-writing it as it's buried back on page 8 and really is the crux of the problem at hand: **** So what is the solution? I've been mulling this over for years in the back of my head as I've see the cancer grow. Something is dreadfully wrong with EVE and yet it goes beyond miners and all of that. It's the idea that you can get something for no risk. It used to not be like this. Back in 2006 or so, there were no player owned structures in 0.0. This meant that all 0.0 alliances had to maintain a presence in low sec to do major shopping and manufacturing and so on, as short of logging at a tower, there was no place to actually "live" in 0.0.(aside from a very very few NPC stations) It resulted in there being a 50/30/20 split in eve in H/L/0. Players interacted well and the game scaled well. 0 was like a giant version of WH space, just with local and no need to really scan that much. Then CCP made the biggst mistake of its life - it allowed players to own 0.0 space and set up permanent homes (mostly as a gimmie to BoB players to allow themselves to have an easier time cementing their hold on 0.0 like the bastards that they were) What has happened is that 0.0 pilots can live full-time in 0.0 nd high sec can live there now as well. The game has split into two factions. One which is mostly (but thankfully not all!) older players and one which is mostly new players who literally have no concept at all that EVE is supposed to operate like it does. t\Their ONLY other experience with MMOGs are games that are split between safe and PVP servers that are kept 1000000% separate at all times. So they demand this from CCP because there's no giant "this game is PVP at all times" on the box when they buy it. And CCP gives in to their demands most of the time. NOTE - there should be quite literally a "This game is set up so that you can potentially be killed at any moment. Please keep this in mind when you play" as the first screen a new player sees. And they have to actually check OK to make it go away. This problem affects high sec AND low sec. Both are entirely too passive and make isk too easily. In essence, all of the shiny objects in eve are easy to grasp and there's little risk. No need to go outside of either area. This causes the cancer - it's a stagnation where you have two equally dysfunctional communities side by side by never really interacting. Because you now have two entirely different player bases on the same game (and with Dust, a third!). What needs to happen is obvious. The best money and missions and rewards in eve need to be squarely in low sec where they force the two player bases to interact again like they once did. Do it not with penalties but with real incentives - and let the players work it out, sandbox-style. There has to be risk for the rewards. It has to be at least a little bit dangerous to get rich. This would force high and 0.0 corps to fight over the resources in low and entice miners to low as it's just that ONE jump away... Pirates and bounty hunters would also get in on the action. Most of EVE would stay the same in high and low, and a good life could be had for either group of players. But the stagnation would be gone as you'd have to work and take risks to do more than idle through the month. Venting your rage at high sec newbies who literally don't physically grasp the concept of high sec PVP and think it's griefing and not a basic mechanic of the game itself simply won't do anything at all. We need to get CCP to change the risk/reward structure of the game to make it so that doing anything more than eeking out a miserable existence anywhere requires you to take real risks. And, it would also help to balance the economy a bit more. I really suggest that everyone here watches the video of the fanfest about the EVE economy. It makes all of this painfully clear, and the direction EVE is falling towards unless we get CCP to change things.
Alundil The Unnamed. 148	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:57:00 - [410] - Quote Marianne Youngblood wrote: I enjoyed this, personally. I also like the Ishtar fitting. I will be trying this out. As did I.
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2012.04.27 21:59:00 - [411] - Quote And for the record, gank-morons who are to lazy to get ISK pay for my accounts by selling PLEX. I say keep those morons happy. Give them more tools to Gank. Ganky gank gank. That doesn't stop the OP from being a Null Bear blatantly arguing for his Null Alliances. Yeah, yeah, Null Alliances need to be the only people who can make any ISK at all so we all have to buy RMT from them to play. Yeah yeah no. Summarily removing the entire CSM and permabanning them and then permabanning every officer in every Null Corp over 500 people would be GREAT for the game. And stop their real life people from resubscribing. That would be awesome.
Ban Bindy Bindy Brothers Pottery Association 113	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:00:00 - [412] - Quote We're right because we made a big fat bunch of posts about how wrong you are. We're right because when you say we're wrong we call you names. We're right because we post on the thread over and over again to say we are right. We're right because everybody should play the same way we do. We're right because if you say anything we go laalalalalala and stick our fingers in our ears. We're right because, just because. A couple more weeks and the last of my accounts winds down and I am out of this game. I loved it, but when I read a thread like this one, I know I'll be better off with Eve out of my head for good. I never minded the real pvp, even the various nonconsensual kinds. It's the self-righteousness of it that I hate. So glad I paid a visit today to see how the Jitaburn was going. Confirms that after three years I've burned out on the cold dark marshmallowness of Eve.
Fracture Antollare The Scope Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:02:00 - [413] - Quote Kale Eledar wrote: Your post is comprehensive, but it has several problems; most notably: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html <---It's in the title. You basically state (and assume) that miners ruin the game from the start before you even begin your analysis. and http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html <-----"miners want x but do it because of y, therefore their desire for x is invalid" See also: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html <----- see OP post title http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-spite.html <---"carebear scum" "chickens" etc. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-fear.html <------ ":ruining your game, ccp hates pvpers, eve turning into wow etc" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html <-----"used to be this way" ergo "better" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html <----- "either get rid of miners/stop them or eve fails" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html <--used to discredit miners' arguments http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html <----used to discredit high profile industrial player's opinions http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html <---- "if ccp keeps supporting the miner lifestyle, eve will become WoW" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html <---do you enjoy mining? do you like mining? or are you prejudiced towards miners due to botters? are all pvpers the same too? http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/division.html <-related in this instance http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html <-----"eve is a pvp game, miners are avoiding the proper way to play eve" (this is the most common argument against indy I seem to see). "eve is a pvp game because it has pvp." Compelling. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/spotlight.html <----related to botters http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html <--- used to misrepresent miner views of pvpers and other playstyles http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ignoring-a-common-cause.html <-----miners causing inflation and nothing else; ignores the complex relatiionships of eve http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html <----eve is far more complex than a----->b, see above http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html &l...
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:11:00 - [414] - Quote Jessie-A Tassik wrote: Summarily removing the entire CSM and permabanning them and then permabanning every officer in every Null Corp over 500 people would be GREAT for the game. And stop their real life people from resubscribing. That would be awesome. Go for it. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:15:00 - [415] - Quote Fuujin wrote: Jayrendo Karr wrote: Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem. What luck, Those already exist! It doesn't exist in equilibrium, as they always deviate into a higher yield, lower tank exhumer. It depends on how they discount the possibility of losing the exhumer vs what it could make in that time. And seems they either underestimate the one, overestimate the other, OR they're accurate enough. But whining always decreases the first, and it just needs forums posting, which you can do while mining. The question is why not whine for more protection? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 5	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:17:00 - [416] - Quote Remember, people, that CCP is a corporation and is in business to make money. PERIOD. No, really. End of discussion about CCP's goals. We cannot get them to fundamentally change the game at this point, so re-balancing the economic engine and risk/reward structure is the only alternative. The newbies who have never seen a game liek this in their life can live in high. but they will be nearly destitute if they do so. And so will those who do nothing in 0.0 Ship stuff, do PI, go to WH space, go to low, build stuff to sell, do missions, do incursions, ... do something except idle. BTW, here's one of the most brilliant things I heard in chat today: - A potential help against AFK miners and bots might be to have rats spawn in high sec belts every 4-5 minutes. The idea being that they either need to have drones and cycle them manually all the time or that it interrupts their mining as their bots warp them out of the belt.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 99	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:21:00 - [417] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Fuujin wrote: Jayrendo Karr wrote: Low-yeild high tank exhumers will solve this problem. What luck, Those already exist! It doesn't exist in equilibrium, as they always deviate into a higher yield, lower tank exhumer. It depends on how they discount the possibility of losing the exhumer vs what it could make in that time. And seems they either underestimate the one, overestimate the other, OR they're accurate enough. But whining always decreases the first, and it just needs forums posting, which you can do while mining. The question is why not whine for more protection? True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:23:00 - [418] - Quote Fuujin wrote: True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place. They probably view a tanky exhumer as a gyrostab Erebus or a lazer raven. When they have mining groups and everyone's all about their m3/min or isk per hour, you can just imagine~ What, you tanked your hulk? We'll never get gan- Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Hench Tenet The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore 8	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:32:00 - [419] - Quote Fantastically written, my friend. I can't agree more. I could not comment without an offering, so I present a recent carebear mail. out of many. https://kb.pleaseignore.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=422756 The aforementioned carebear was not even aware of his death as much as 20 minutes later.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 662	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:33:00 - [420] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Fuujin wrote: True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place. They probably view a tanky exhumer as a gyrostab Erebus or a lazer raven. When they have mining groups and everyone's all about their m3/min or isk per hour, you can just imagine~ What, you tanked your hulk? We'll never get gan- 32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY. If it's a Mack, then forget surviving anyway. This is why hi sec should not exist. Only defense is offense and about pre-killing those who come in. The tank poasts are just drivel made to instill a false sense of security. No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of. This is why when I mined it was in low sec, no morons could come in without getting busted. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:44:00 - [421] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Fuujin wrote: True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place. They probably view a tanky exhumer as a gyrostab Erebus or a lazer raven. When they have mining groups and everyone's all about their m3/min or isk per hour, you can just imagine~ What, you tanked your hulk? We'll never get gan- Yeah its a funny thing. Your typical miner has no real emotional investment in any particular ship, the only concern is income. So if they don't get ganked often enough, skipping the tank results in greater income. It is actually a sensible choice. Plus, a tanked hulk is still perfectly gankable. Probably solo gankable, with the new BCs.
Siobhan MacLeary BRG Corp Acquisition Of Empire 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:48:00 - [422] - Quote Joe Skellington wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: Joe Skellington wrote: I wanted to read it all, but it started turning into a novel. Why not draft a summary with links to dropbox for the longer pieces. It was a really good novel. One of those "can't put it down" reads. I highly recommend to anyone who wants to continue playing EVE. Those who wish to perform the ultimate gank by causing/allowing EVE to die might wish to skip instead to: "Why Non-Consensual PvP is an Exploit: The Miners' Primer" I don't want CCP to take out non-consensual PVP, that would make the game a totally different place than what was when I first started playing years ago. I highly doubt CCP would do that, considering it's what sets EVE apart from all the other crap out there. Actually, what sets EVE apart from all other games currently on the market is not the non-consensual PVP - that's been done, both well and poorly - but the emergent gameplay. What both sides of this discussion, nullies and carebears alike, seem to be forgetting is that EVE is, at it's most basic, a sandbox. Not a sandbox in the sense that you can do whatever you like however you wish - if you want THAT, go play Minecraft by yourself - but in the sense that the game is what you make of it. Face it, both mining and PVP are equally valid in this game - if they weren't valid activities, we would not be able to do them. AT. ALL. Neither the carebear push for hisec being 100% safe and risk-free nor the nullbear fight for PVP ERRYWHAR ERRYDAY is the "correct" route to take. The "correct" route to take, as CCP has demonstrated time and again, is to provide us with the tools and ability to play the game as we want to in our own individual ways. If the monotony of mining ice and rock is what entertains you, so be it. If the visceral action of small-gang PVP is your thing, that's fine too. The point is that both sides are trying to force the other to play their way, and that isn't the right thing to do. If you want hisec miners to stop mining in hisec, give them a good reason to go to nullsec - but keep in mind that since the stick has, so far, had little effect, maybe the carrot will work better. Similarly, if you want people to stop suicide ganking, give them a good reason to do it - not by making it impossible for them to do so, but by listening to them and understanding, and maybe even offering a compromise. Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. Do you condemn your neighbor for watching TV shows you don't watch? Of course not. So why do you condemn those who choose to play this specific game in a way different than your own? (Note: I'm not defending AFK mining or botting, I'm just saying that mining in itself is not a bad thing.) If you're going to follow the logic of different = bad, then you might as well take it to the logical extreme and start campaigning to kill all 6,999,999,999 (give or take) other people on the planet, since there is NO other person on this Earth who is not different from you in SOME way.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 100	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:49:00 - [423] - Quote Takseen wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: Fuujin wrote: True, it's easier to cry and throw a tantrum rather than learn to fit your very-tanky exhumer for survival. But that doesn't change the fact that the very tanky exhumer already exists in the first place. They probably view a tanky exhumer as a gyrostab Erebus or a lazer raven. When they have mining groups and everyone's all about their m3/min or isk per hour, you can just imagine~ What, you tanked your hulk? We'll never get gan- Yeah its a funny thing. Your typical miner has no real emotional investment in any particular ship, the only concern is income. So if they don't get ganked often enough, skipping the tank results in greater income. It is actually a sensible choice. Plus, a tanked hulk is still perfectly gankable. Probably solo gankable, with the new BCs. Actually not re solo ganks. A tank-fitted hulk is beyond the grasp of any single subcap ship in eve to suicide gank. It might be in structure, but it will very much survive. However, it will also be limited to the default cargobay and the mining output of its bonused strips. And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. Well, besides "callow bleating," which is a nifty phrase in itself.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 662	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:55:00 - [424] - Quote Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing is that years ago I tried joining multiple 0.0 corps for mining and all of them refused. They only accepted pure PvP players, only 2-3 directors allowed to do industry. Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:56:00 - [425] - Quote Fuujin wrote: Actually not re solo ganks. A tank-fitted hulk is beyond the grasp of any single subcap ship in eve to suicide gank. It might be in structure, but it will very much survive. However, it will also be limited to the default cargobay and the mining output of its bonused strips. Got a link to the fit?
Kale Eledar Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji 34	Posted - 2012.04.27 22:56:00 - [426] - Quote Fracture Antollare wrote: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy ^^^^^^ - Just because you misinterpret the argument does not make it any less true. You claim the argument is true and I misinterpret it, yet provide no concrete examples. Just saying I have doesn't mean I have. Perhaps provide examples? Most of those were essentially paraphrases of common sentiments that are quite clear and regularly touted. In fact, I'd say that the way an argument is interpreted has no effect on its truth value, just as the fact color-blind people can't see red colors doesn't mean the object isn't red. This is sort of a silly example, but it is a good way of illustrating deductive reasoning pitfalls. If an argument is easily "misinterpretable", it is probable it is a poor argument. Logical fallacies (of which it is abundantly clear are being used in the OP) are a good metric for how serious to take an argument. Simply put, he offers a plausible premise, but provides inadequate evidence to support it. From the same website: A fallacy is, very generally, an error in reasoning. This differs from a factual error, which is simply being wrong about the facts. To be more specific, a fallacy is an "argument" in which the premises given for the conclusion do not provide the needed degree of support. A deductive fallacy is a deductive argument that is invalid (it is such that it could have all true premises and still have a false conclusion). An inductive fallacy is less formal than a deductive fallacy. They are simply "arguments" which appear to be inductive arguments, but the premises do not provided enough support for the conclusion. In such cases, even if the premises were true, the conclusion would not be more likely to be true. The burden of proof is on HIM to provide a compelling argument. Not on the reader to "get" it. If it is only understandable to some, it is a sucky argument. Which is what I was pointing out. The Irukandji is recruiting PVP pilots! APPLY NAO. You won't regret it. See our info at : -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70811&find=unread
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 745	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:01:00 - [427] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing is that years ago I tried joining multiple 0.0 corps for mining and all of them refused. They only accepted pure PvP players, only 2-3 directors allowed to do industry. Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. The damage was done by the time you applied, alas. We're actually all hoping this recent shakeup with minerals will make it so that we see some more Nullsec Mining. And the idea of Ice being moved to Null or even Lowsec is still appealing, if only to pull these AFK Botting Jackasses into someplace where they can be properly handled by the sandbox. Simply put, there should be a reason to be in Lowsec and Nullsec besides love of PVP and empire building. There isn't any. Move L4 missions to Lowsec. Move Ice out of Highsec. Bleed some of the fat out of Highsec and we'll see the game continue to improve.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:04:00 - [428] - Quote Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it.
Fuujin GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 100	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:04:00 - [429] - Quote Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: Actually not re solo ganks. A tank-fitted hulk is beyond the grasp of any single subcap ship in eve to suicide gank. It might be in structure, but it will very much survive. However, it will also be limited to the default cargobay and the mining output of its bonused strips. Got a link to the fit? I would be robbing your of quality self-instruction and discovery by sharing the fits and the EHP limit that a solo suicide attacker can penetrate. Suffice it to say that such a fit can and does exist, is not onerous to do, and uses off-the-shelf modules. The rest I leave to you and EFT. You are protected against solo attackers. Obviously, if someone brings a friend or 4, you will not survive--nor should you.
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 745	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:05:00 - [430] - Quote Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:08:00 - [431] - Quote Xython wrote: Move L4 missions to Lowsec. Move Ice out of Highsec. Bleed some of the fat out of Highsec and we'll see the game continue to improve. Level 4s are already in lowsec, and pay quite a bit more I'm told. But as long as they require a big and/or expensive ship to complete, take a long time to finish, and only pay out most of their reward at the end, they won't be popular in lowsec. You could move the ice to null, but is that really doing anything but moving the bots around, and giving whichever alliance controls the ice fields even more passive income?
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:09:00 - [432] - Quote Xython wrote: Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining. Righto, what can the 3 friends do?
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1291	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:11:00 - [433] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: My "one man wardec with a very very low SP alt" is EXACTLY this scenario, except rather than "playing" weak I am deliberately handicapping myself to bring myself to a manageable level for the opponent. Go work at an animal shelter for a while and learn about rehabilitating abused animals. Your "one man" wardec looks like a trap, smells like a trap. Your targets have experienced that trap and aren't going to fall for it again. Reconditioning abused hisec era is going to take a whole lot more than "playing dead". You need to learn some basic psychology here. The new wardec system will limit the ability for wardeccing corps to swell their numbers after conflict has started. This will help the hisec PvP-averse hyper-paranoid folks be a little braver about engaging during a wardec. [quote=Khanh'rhhCarebears don't get griefed because they mine, they get griefed because they are content with playing the punching bag. Quote: Classic GÇ£blame the victimGÇ¥ mentality. Carebears get griefed because griefers are only looking for easy pickings with no risk of a real fight. There is absolutely no risk in ganking miners, so don't make out that you are hard done by when miners refuse to fight you. The risk is entirely theirs in fighting wardeccing corps. Despite your claim that it is just you, their experience has been that the moment they put up a fight you will use some mechanic or another to avoid loss on your part. Neutral reps, non-corp alts sitting in station ready to join your corp at a moment's notice, etc. You say that you don't use these tactics, but you must be the only one. Quote: [quote]What about the simpler rules like: when that guy flips your can, only the person who jettisoned that can is allowed to shoot back, but when that shot is fired, the flipper's entire corporation can shoot back at the shooter, but the victim's corp has to wait for the flipper's corp to start shooting before they can join the fight You have it EXACTLY backwards. Yup. Now go write down all the rules of hisec aggression mechanics, including the exploits that you know of such as keeping a can warp scrambled in order to prolong you aggression timer, or the one where you self destruct in order to trigger a GCC on the other player. Criminal Flagging: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Criminal_Flagging_System Aggression Timer: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Aggression_Timer Container and Wreck Ownership: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Container_and_wreck_ownership That documentation is incomplete. As for wardecs, they are for shooting PSes in hisec or interdicting a competitor's in-space activities in hisec (or without sec loss in lowsec). Viewing them as a means for getting "good fights" in hisec is setting yourself up for disappointment. Complaining that targets don't fight you back is pathetic mewling. "Why don't these people fall for my obvious trap? I promise it is not really a trap! See? It's just me in my T1 frigate, looking for some good fights in hisec! Why won't anyone fight me?" LOL If you want PvP, go where the PvPers are: this is lowsec or nullsec.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 663	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:13:00 - [434] - Quote Xython wrote: Move L4 missions to Lowsec. Move Ice out of Highsec. Bleed some of the fat out of Highsec and we'll see the game continue to improve. Once you moved L4 to low sec won't push ANYBODY in there. I have done L4 both in low sec and NPC 0.0, they give awesome LP (I got 14k+) and even very nice pirate items. They do it already, right now. Still in minnie low sec we were all of 5 in local (1 was a guy in Vaga trying to kill us :D) and then moved in some other place called Gukarla (iirc) with 3 in local. When they moved L5 to low sec, not a single hi seccer went there any more, end of. "Better 10M per hour in hi sec than 100M per hour in low sec". That's why hi sec should not exist. Also, moving ice to low sec won't work either. Ice nets less than minerals, people will just all switch to minerals. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Jonah Gravenstein 226	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:14:00 - [435] - Quote Xython wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing is that years ago I tried joining multiple 0.0 corps for mining and all of them refused. They only accepted pure PvP players, only 2-3 directors allowed to do industry. Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. The damage was done by the time you applied, alas. We're actually all hoping this recent shakeup with minerals will make it so that we see some more Nullsec Mining. And the idea of Ice being moved to Null or even Lowsec is still appealing, if only to pull these AFK Botting Jackasses into someplace where they can be properly handled by the sandbox. Simply put, there should be a reason to be in Lowsec and Nullsec besides love of PVP and empire building. There isn't any. Move L4 missions to Lowsec. Move Ice out of Highsec. Bleed some of the fat out of Highsec and we'll see the game continue to improve. I would love to move my operations out of highsec and into lo/null, but as a primarily PVE player I'm pretty sure I would not be welcome. I've only ever been on the receiving end of PVP and tbh as far as I'm concerned "thems the breaks", it's a sandbox and if somebody decides they want to gank my arse then that's cool, they're playing the game their way just as I'm playing it my way. What puts me off of even trying to move to lo/null as a PVE player is that the general consensus of opinion on the forums from the people that live there is that I'm a worthless pubbie that shouldn't be allowed to breathe let alone be in the same universe as them. If lo/null were more welcoming of players like myself. who don't PVP or have no experience of PVP (apart from dying in a fire) I'm sure that the ratio of high sec to other sec players would be more balanced and the game would improve for us all. Just to clarify, whilst I am primarily a PVE player I have lived in WH's and I'm well aware of the risks involved living in space not policed by Concord. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:15:00 - [436] - Quote Fuujin wrote: I would be robbing you of quality self-instruction and discovery by sharing the fits and the EHP limit that a solo suicide attacker can penetrate. Suffice it to say that such a fit can and does exist, is not onerous to do, and uses off-the-shelf modules. The rest I leave to you and EFT. You are protected against solo attackers. Obviously, if someone brings a friend or 4, you will not survive--nor should you. Edit: Those 4 people will all have lost their ships and will be unable to do anything but warp in a very vulnerable pod for 15 minutes or sit in station. Short of being purely alphastriked (alphastruck?) by tornadoes (which is EXTREMELY costly to do if you're fit right) your friends will be able to help you as well. I doubt the fit is either cheap or accessible. Last guy I saw who linked one turned out to be using Tech II rigs. I'll concede the point about the ability to possibly retaliate against a non-instant gank.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 490	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:18:00 - [437] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: When they moved L5 to low sec, not a single hi seccer went there any more, end of. "Better 10M per hour in hi sec than 100M per hour in low sec". That's why hi sec should not exist. Well, I'm sure they can make a lot more than 10m per hour in highsec. Not sure how easily one would make 100m per hour in lowsec, unless you mean L5s give that. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 43	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:22:00 - [438] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing is that years ago I tried joining multiple 0.0 corps for mining and all of them refused. They only accepted pure PvP players, only 2-3 directors allowed to do industry. Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. I really doubt anyone would mind you mining in your free time. I think they were just worried that when space needed defending you wouldn't help out. If you're a miner who doesn't mind doing some PvP when the alliance needs it I don't see why they wouldn't want you.
Pod Potato Gluttonous Hungers Inc. 65	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:23:00 - [439] - Quote But.... but.... highsec miners are mah friends! Much like a pepper I enjoy inflicting pain on others... preferably in the mouth and anus.
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 249	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:23:00 - [440] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing...years ago.... Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Ten Bulls Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 87	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:24:00 - [441] - Quote Make sure you destroy all the evidence before the Crisis Assessment Treatment Team find you.
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 748	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:27:00 - [442] - Quote Takseen wrote: Xython wrote: Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining. Righto, what can the 3 friends do? Jump in PVP ships and fight back?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6331	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:28:00 - [443] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: 32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY. [GÇª] No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of. GÇªand all is as it should be. Takseen wrote: Plus, a tanked hulk is still perfectly gankable. Probably solo gankable, with the new BCs. No, you can make a Hulk safe from any kind of solo gank. Also, if they were solo gankable with the new BCs, they would have been solo gankable by the good old battleshipsGÇª and they weren't and still aren't. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:32:00 - [444] - Quote Xython wrote: Jump in PVP ships and fight back? Fight back against what? Concord will already have killed the attackers. And if my understanding of the system is correct, only the victim will have any killrights, which he'd have to pursue on his own. Likely against either 4 disposable suicide alts, or 4 highly experienced combat pilots.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 491	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:34:00 - [445] - Quote Xython wrote: Takseen wrote: Xython wrote: Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Oh, they could, but that would require they not be AFK Bot Mining. Righto, what can the 3 friends do? Jump in PVP ships and fight back? Note: Battle badgers or Battle Noctii don't count. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:34:00 - [446] - Quote Tippia wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: 32 EHP Hulk fitted as previously posted on these forums. Orca with skill 5 links. Hulk dies to 4 destroyers ANYWAY. [GÇª] No, the mining ship will NOT survive to any barely organized gank, end of. GÇªand all is as it should be. Takseen wrote: Plus, a tanked hulk is still perfectly gankable. Probably solo gankable, with the new BCs. No, you can make a Hulk safe from any kind of solo gank. Also, if they were solo gankable with the new BCs, they would have been solo gankable by the good old battleshipsGÇª and they weren't and still aren't. So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank?
Trinityrose Ffap 0	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:34:00 - [447] - Quote Everyone here has made some very good posts as to the issues, and I must offer major props to the OP for making such a long string of well thought out posts that make a lot of things very clear to players. Ultimate, though, the easiest and fastest fix to the entire problem, is to redistribute the wealth of High Sec into Low/Null sec by reducing the potential income that is made in High Sec. The comparison of risk vs reward from high sec vs null sec is incredibly imbalanced. You can amass a fortune much faster, and more easily, in higher sec systems than in lower sec when you weigh the amount of risk against it.
Digital Messiah Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 202	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:36:00 - [448] - Quote Very good post OP. Send the ore to null sec! "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 491	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:36:00 - [449] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing...years ago.... Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. That's because being someone who only wants to mine doesn't change when you go to 0.0 AFK mining is one thing, but being horribly surprised when you return and are in station because of being blown up and podded is another. How much people will afk mine in 0.0 depends on various things, but blaming CONCORD when someone catches and kills your hulk/covetor isn't a factor. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 491	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:37:00 - [450] - Quote Trinityrose wrote: The comparison of risk vs reward from high sec vs null sec is incredibly imbalanced. You can amass a fortune much faster, and more easily, in higher sec systems than in lower sec when you weigh the amount of risk against it. Tell that to the highsec people who claim nullsec is safer than highsec. Actually, you don't have it, it's been done before, to very little effect. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 748	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:38:00 - [451] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing...years ago.... Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. That's because being someone who only wants to mine doesn't change when you go to 0.0 AFK mining is one thing, but being horribly surprised when you return and are in station because of being blown up and podded is another. How much people will afk mine in 0.0 depends on various things, but blaming CONCORD when someone catches and kills your hulk/covetor isn't a factor. "But, but, I didn't wanna PVP, I just wanted to cheat and AFK Bot Mine in peace. CCP, FIX CONCORD~! BUFF MY SHIP!! NERF PVP!!!" Part of the problem is that mining is so god awful boring that you would have to be autistic or a bot to enjoy it.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1291	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:39:00 - [452] - Quote Takseen wrote: So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank? Well, the "solo" ganker is using an Orca to transport the supply of destroyers, so it balances out doesn't it?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 6331	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:39:00 - [453] - Quote Takseen wrote: So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank? No, it can reach 32k EHP without any outside help. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 491	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:41:00 - [454] - Quote Tippia wrote: Takseen wrote: So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank? No, it can reach 32k EHP without any outside help. Wow, every pvper uses a boosting alt, surely a group of miners can afford one b- Wait, that makes no sense, because they could have another hulk that would make more ISK PER HOUR. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:45:00 - [455] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Takseen wrote: So the "solo" hulk needs a maxed out Orca to achieve the 32k EHP necessary to survive a solo gank? Well, the "solo" ganker is using an Orca to transport the supply of destroyers, so it balances out doesn't it? Fair point.
Jonah Gravenstein 228	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:45:00 - [456] - Quote I've just gone back to the OP and read the whole of his massively long winded post, on reflection he does actually make some good points, it's just hidden in hyperbole. I retract my previous comment about him crying. Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? I'm a carebear yes, but I'm willing to expand my horizons, I know this isn't recruitment, it's a hypthetical question War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:49:00 - [457] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I've just gone back to the OP and read the whole of his massively long winded post, on reflection he does actually make some good points, it's just hidden in hyperbole. I retract my previous comment about him crying. Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? I'm a carebear yes, but I'm willing to expand my horizons, I know this isn't recruitment, it's a hypthetical question I think the problem is that if they want a primarily pve focused player in nullsec, they're better off just getting a bot. They're less whiny, less prone to spying or corp theft, they work longer hours, and they're less likely to die to stupid ****.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 491	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:51:00 - [458] - Quote Fredfredbug4 wrote: One reason why I support the suicide gankers over the miners (despite not belonging to either group) is that at least the suicide gankers are intelligent enough to write well thought out argument as to why they think they are right rather than create identical whine threads like the miners do. Quality over quantity, huh. Makes sense in a forums enviroment. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Epic Fail Troll Hedion University Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:52:00 - [459] - Quote Epic Toasting 11/10
MatrixSkye Mk2 Republic University Minmatar Republic 295	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:53:00 - [460] - Quote To anyone thinking the OP is right or even serious: YOU are the punch line to his joke. And I have to admit it's pretty funny. To the OP: Well played !
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2012.04.27 23:53:00 - [461] - Quote Takseen wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I've just gone back to the OP and read the whole of his massively long winded post, on reflection he does actually make some good points, it's just hidden in hyperbole. I retract my previous comment about him crying. Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? I'm a carebear yes, but I'm willing to expand my horizons, I know this isn't recruitment, it's a hypthetical question I think the problem is that if they want a primarily pve focused player in nullsec, they're better off just getting a bot. They're less whiny, less prone to spying or corp theft, they work longer hours, and they're less likely to die to stupid ****. If this is everyone's answer, why should non ship to ship PvP'ers even want to join the rest of the game?
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 663	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:01:00 - [462] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: When they moved L5 to low sec, not a single hi seccer went there any more, end of. "Better 10M per hour in hi sec than 100M per hour in low sec". That's why hi sec should not exist. Well, I'm sure they can make a lot more than 10m per hour in highsec. Not sure how easily one would make 100m per hour in lowsec, unless you mean L5s give that. 10M if you move L4 in low sec, so all they have left are L3. 100M/h in low sec is doable in L4 if you know WTF you are doing. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:01:00 - [463] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? Yes, yes there are. My last null corp had a guy that could barely fly a BC. I myself joined it when that character was about a month old and could also barely fly a bc. We joined at about the same time and were the corp "newbies" together, although I had experience already and just had a new character. He was completely new at the game, but both of us were out on PvP roams with them in under a week after joining. They even let me use thoraxes at first because I didn't want to have to replace more expensive ships yet and we were too small to have a reimbursement policy. On nights where we did group PvE in the complexes they even let the two of us newbies keep the salvage for ourselves. It was our job to kill the cruisers and frigates to save the battleships the annoyance of trying to hit them. The only thing keeping you from going to 0.0 is yourself. Hell even goons accept newbies in frigates as long as they hang out on the something awful forum.
Jonah Gravenstein 228	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:03:00 - [464] - Quote Takseen wrote: I think the problem is that if they want a primarily pve focused player in nullsec, they're better off just getting a bot. They're less whiny, less prone to spying or corp theft, they work longer hours, and they're less likely to die to stupid **. I thought this was probably the case but hoped otherwise, last time I was looking in the recruitment channel the only response I got from a nullsec entity was a GSF recruiter who said that PVE wasn't a problem, as soon as I saw GSF my reply was that I didn't have a 500 million security deposit and I'd move my own stuff the convo kind of died. Please someone in lo/null shatter my beliefs and live up to my hopes, I'm fairly sure that there's many a highsec player that would love to live in lo/null but are put off by the unrealistically high bar you set and the recruitment scams you pull. I want to believe, I truly do but you make it hard to.** War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:04:00 - [465] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? Yes, yes there are. My last null corp had a guy that could barely fly a BC. I myself joined it when that character was about a month old and could also barely fly a bc. We joined at about the same time and were the corp "newbies" together, although I had experience already and just had a new character. He was completely new at the game, but both of us were out on PvP roams with them in under a week after joining. They even let me use thoraxes at first because I didn't want to have to replace more expensive ships yet and we were too small to have a reimbursement policy. On nights where we did group PvE in the complexes they even let the two of us newbies keep the salvage for ourselves. It was our job to kill the cruisers and frigates to save the battleships the annoyance of trying to hit them. The only thing keeping you from going to 0.0 is yourself. Hell even goons accept newbies in frigates as long as they hang out on the something awful forum. His question seems more focused on PvE'ers and industrialist that new players.
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 5	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:04:00 - [466] - Quote Wrong, wrong wrong. No NOT move everything to low/0. That gives 0 more isk for free. Take anomalies. Since the grav sites spawn based upon the minerals in the region, the last grav site I ran across in 0.0 had a whopping 350,000 unit rock of Spodumain. It was literally the size of a mothership and I calculated that it would take two hulks almost 26 hours to mine it all. There is quite literally isk flowing out of the walls and floors in high and 0. To the point where CCP estimates that the economy is adding 36 trillion more isk every month that is being removed. And that does not include PLEX. (100,000+ sales last month) That brings the total for February to a positive cash flow of 86 TRILLION isk more than is being taken out. Inflation is the result. Massive inflation - on the order of almost 100% in two years. It has to be moved only to low. And in a big way. Force players to meet and interact rather violently in the middle region to make money. And by force, I mean quite literally to the point of removing anomalies and belts and so on. It's been mined for 5+ years and well, maybe it's time for the belts to start being permanently mined out. Idle all you want. But making big isk will require cashing in PLEX (hoarding it is bad for the economy, after all) or getting your rear end to low and playing the game.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:07:00 - [467] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I thought this was probably the case but hoped otherwise, last time I was looking in the recruitment channel the only response I got from a nullsec entity was a GSF recruiter who said that PVE wasn't a problem, as soon as I saw GSF my reply was that I didn't have a 500 million security deposit and I'd move my own stuff the convo kind of died. They only recruit people from the something awful forum. The "security deposit" is a scam. There's usually at least a post a day in crime and punishment from some stupid victim who didn't google the alliance and didn't read their wiki, where it states that the deposit is a scam and gives the real instructions for joining.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 663	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:08:00 - [468] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Yes, AFK mining and botting are repugnant - EVE is a game you play actively, to most folk, and those who bot or AFK mine are playing this game in bad faith. But we're still playing the same game - still living in the same universe. The fun thing...years ago.... Then today I read how bad are miners who don't go to 0.0, figures. That's because being someone who only wants to mine doesn't change when you go to 0.0 AFK mining is one thing, but being horribly surprised when you return and are in station because of being blown up and podded is another. How much people will afk mine in 0.0 depends on various things, but blaming CONCORD when someone catches and kills your hulk/covetor isn't a factor. I might be tired, I don't understand how this reply matches with my post. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 663	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:10:00 - [469] - Quote Takseen wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I've just gone back to the OP and read the whole of his massively long winded post, on reflection he does actually make some good points, it's just hidden in hyperbole. I retract my previous comment about him crying. Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? I'm a carebear yes, but I'm willing to expand my horizons, I know this isn't recruitment, it's a hypthetical question I think the problem is that if they want a primarily pve focused player in nullsec, they're better off just getting a bot. They're less whiny, less prone to spying or corp theft, they work longer hours, and they're less likely to die to stupid ****. So, that PvE guy is not supposed to be in hi sec but would not be wanted in 0.0. Looks like he got a deal! Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Jonah Gravenstein 228	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:10:00 - [470] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I thought this was probably the case but hoped otherwise, last time I was looking in the recruitment channel the only response I got from a nullsec entity was a GSF recruiter who said that PVE wasn't a problem, as soon as I saw GSF my reply was that I didn't have a 500 million security deposit and I'd move my own stuff the convo kind of died. They only recruit people from the something awful forum. The "security deposit" is a scam. There's usually at least a post a day in crime and punishment from some stupid victim who didn't google the alliance and didn't read their wiki, where it states that the deposit is a scam and gives the real instructions for joining. I know this, I pre-empted the scam attempt as soon as I did a check info on the recruiter. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:11:00 - [471] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? Yes, yes there are. My last null corp had a guy that could barely fly a BC. I myself joined it when that character was about a month old and could also barely fly a bc. We joined at about the same time and were the corp "newbies" together, although I had experience already and just had a new character. He was completely new at the game, but both of us were out on PvP roams with them in under a week after joining. They even let me use thoraxes at first because I didn't want to have to replace more expensive ships yet and we were too small to have a reimbursement policy. On nights where we did group PvE in the complexes they even let the two of us newbies keep the salvage for ourselves. It was our job to kill the cruisers and frigates to save the battleships the annoyance of trying to hit them. The only thing keeping you from going to 0.0 is yourself. Hell even goons accept newbies in frigates as long as they hang out on the something awful forum. His question seems more focused on PvE'ers and industrialist that new players. I thought my answer made it clear that if a month old newbie with less SP and knowledge of the game can go to 0.0 then it should be extremely easy for an experienced PvE player. I meant it as a "if he can do it so can you" kind of thing. I was trying to show that people are quite accommodating and helpful as long as you show a willingness to learn and participate. Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I know this, I pre-empted the scam attempt as soon as I did a check info on the recruiter. I misunderstood then, my bad. Couldn't tell that you knew from your post.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 663	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:18:00 - [472] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: I thought my answer made it clear that if a month old newbie with less SP and knowledge of the game can go to 0.0 then it should be extremely easy for an experienced PvE player. I meant it as a "if he can do it so can you" kind of thing. What he means is that beyond the bold and sound claims: - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as PvEer you are seen as worthless garbage. - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as industrialist they tell "lol we already have indy alts nor we'll give you access to the POSes". - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as miner they tell you "LOL no we don't want botters". You got to be the next faceless grunt ready for the obligatory or kick 2am POS bashing OP THEN you are fine. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Kuehnelt Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet 15	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:21:00 - [473] - Quote Plekto wrote: Wrong, wrong wrong. No NOT move everything to low/0. That gives 0 more isk for free. Take anomalies. Since the grav sites spawn based upon the minerals in the region, the last grav site I ran across in 0.0 had a whopping 350,000 unit rock of Spodumain. It was literally the size of a mothership and I calculated that it would take two hulks almost 26 hours to mine it all. There is quite literally isk flowing out of the walls and floors in high and 0. To the point where CCP estimates that the economy is adding 36 trillion more isk every month that is being removed. And that does not include PLEX. (100,000+ sales last month) That brings the total for February to a positive cash flow of 86 TRILLION isk more than is being taken out. A whopping 350,000 unit rock of Spodumain is not isk. It's stuff. Outside of NPC buy orders and insurance, you can't turn stuff into isk; you can only trade it for some isk that someone else already has. Likewise, those 100,000+ sales of PLEX added no isk to EVE.
Torneach Hedion University Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:23:00 - [474] - Quote Is anybody else noticing a parallel between the OP and a certain fascist dictator in a land called Germany in the 1930s?
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:24:00 - [475] - Quote I can't be arsed going back to reading the epic novel OP posted again, so what was the complaint against empire carebears again? That is to say, how are they wrecking the Eve experience of Pvpers operating outside of highsec?
Nick Bison Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd 179	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:24:00 - [476] - Quote Just finished reading the whole OP. Methinks that level of butt-hurt hatred has to be caused by a miner stealing his girlfriend/wife. Nothing clever at this time.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:25:00 - [477] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? Yes, yes there are. My last null corp had a guy that could barely fly a BC. I myself joined it when that character was about a month old and could also barely fly a bc. We joined at about the same time and were the corp "newbies" together, although I had experience already and just had a new character. He was completely new at the game, but both of us were out on PvP roams with them in under a week after joining. They even let me use thoraxes at first because I didn't want to have to replace more expensive ships yet and we were too small to have a reimbursement policy. On nights where we did group PvE in the complexes they even let the two of us newbies keep the salvage for ourselves. It was our job to kill the cruisers and frigates to save the battleships the annoyance of trying to hit them. The only thing keeping you from going to 0.0 is yourself. Hell even goons accept newbies in frigates as long as they hang out on the something awful forum. His question seems more focused on PvE'ers and industrialist that new players. I thought my answer made it clear that if a month old newbie with less SP and knowledge of the game can go to 0.0 then it should be extremely easy for an experienced PvE player. I meant it as a "if he can do it so can you" kind of thing. I was trying to show that people are quite accommodating and helpful as long as you show a willingness to learn and participate. Maybe I'm misreading the intent of the question then. What I'm seeing is a question of "If my primary activities are not PvP, am I welcome by people who live in PvP space?" This is considerably different from asking, "I'm new, can I PvP with you guys?"
Torneach Hedion University Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:26:00 - [478] - Quote Takseen wrote: Torneach wrote: Is anybody else noticing a parallel between the OP and a certain fascist dictator in a land called Germany in the 1930s? Mussolini was from Italy, not Germany. The 1930s political system in Germany can be considered fascism.
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:27:00 - [479] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as PvEer you are seen as worthless garbage. He said he was willing to learn to PvP. Most people don't have a problem with PvE. It's not like nullbears don't PvE all the time themselves. What they have a problem with is people refusing to pull their own weight and sit there and mine while everyone else is out dying. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as industrialist they tell "lol we already have indy alts nor we'll give you access to the POSes". - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as miner they tell you "LOL no we don't want botters". Join a different corp then. They sound like muppets anyway. You're obviously not going to get POS access on day one in any corp though for security reasons. Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe I'm misreading the intent of the question then. What I'm seeing is a question of "If my primary activities are not PvP, am I welcome by people who live in PvP space?" This is considerably different from asking, "I'm new, can I PvP with you guys?" It did specifically say that he was willing to learn PvP.
Borsek Sephray Industries Serenitas Solutus 0	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:27:00 - [480] - Quote What are you OP, some kind of EvE Breivik? Stick your manifestos where the sun don't shine, you backwards inbred lunatic.
Merivel Mar Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 0	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:31:00 - [481] - Quote I didn't read this crap but I have a question... Ever seen The Mattani Naked?
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:32:00 - [482] - Quote Merivel Mar wrote: I didn't read this crap but I have a question... Ever seen The Mattani Naked? If I did it would be on youtube. :P Borsek wrote: What are you OP, some kind of EvE Breivik? Stick your manifestos where the sun don't shine, you backwards inbred lunatic. Spewing random insults at a well written post without offering any counterpoint or actual opinion of your own doesn't make him look like an inbred lunatic.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:34:00 - [483] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe I'm misreading the intent of the question then. What I'm seeing is a question of "If my primary activities are not PvP, am I welcome by people who live in PvP space?" This is considerably different from asking, "I'm new, can I PvP with you guys?" I read it as more like "I'm mainly interested in PvE, but am willing to learn to PvP with you guys too if you'll teach me." It did specifically say that he was willing to learn PvP. Willingness to learn PvP on some level would be necessary in both situations. Both should be willing, in the case of null, to join HD fleets and CTA's to contribute, but what about the guy that would rather scan for cosmic sigs than go on a roam?
Siobhan MacLeary BRG Corp Acquisition Of Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:38:00 - [484] - Quote Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Can't? More like won't. Go gank the gankers, that's doing something about it. Learn to fly and fit a destroyer. There's nothing except your own apathy preventing you from taking action and fighting back.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:41:00 - [485] - Quote Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Can't? More like won't. Go gank the gankers, that's doing something about it. Learn to fly and fit a destroyer. There's nothing except your own apathy preventing you from taking action and fighting back. Suicide gank destroyers in destroyers? When the targets are likely to be experienced combat vets or disposable alts? And as you've admitted, there's no way to pre-empt the gank, and Concord already provides immediate retaliation.
Jonah Gravenstein 228	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:42:00 - [486] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe I'm misreading the intent of the question then. What I'm seeing is a question of "If my primary activities are not PvP, am I welcome by people who live in PvP space?" This is considerably different from asking, "I'm new, can I PvP with you guys?" You have the original intent bang on, my primary activities are PVE, I can fly most T1 stuff up to battleship (some of it badly but meh) I fit my ships for PVE, they don't last long in a PVP enviroment, I know this through losing ships to roving gangs in WH's. Non one sided PVP would be an experience I'm sure. I see a lot of biatching about how all hisec dwellers are carebears and thus are useless wastes of DNA, but the moment we try to improve ourselves and involve ourselves in other aspects of the game we're laughed at and told to GTFO or GBTW. It doesn't matter if you PVP or PVE in hisec you're deemed to be scum and not worthy of trying to expand your horizons. Some of us want to expand our horizons, we'd like to get involved in the politics, wars, landgrabs and all the other goodies in lo and null, but we're not welcome and until this changes there is always going to be a massive divide between hisec and everywhere else. I along with no doubt many others are totally willing to pull our weight in PvP, sacrifice ourselves to get tackle, go out in a blaze of glory and all that, but we not even deemed worthy of that in most cases. Sometimes I wish that when I started to play I'd gone straight to lo/null sec and learnt to die in style, unfortunately the first experience many players have of these areas is one sided PVP where they get Instagibbed. The tutorials don't encourage the PVP lifestyle, as far as many are concerned PvE is the game, because they don't know any better. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 492	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:52:00 - [487] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Sometimes I wish that when I started to play I'd gone straight to lo/null sec and learnt to die in style, unfortunately the first experience many players have of these areas is one sided PVP where they get Instagibbed. The tutorials don't encourage the PVP lifestyle, as far as many are concerned PvE is the game, because they don't know any better. Yep! Well I haven't been blown up in a rifter by a glancing blow from an Avatar, but you know how things are ~ There are serious legitimate issues with spys in nullsec, among other things. Definitely though, the "extra-EVE" communities have an advantage of a sort over the recruitment channel/forum "community". Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Velicitia Open Designs 891	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:54:00 - [488] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Going back to a post I made earlier about how I would love to move my PVE operations to lo/null, are there actually any corps/alliances based in these areas that would welcome a PVE player who wants to continue with PVE, has no experience of PVP but would be willing to learn even if it's only as cannon fodder/hero tackle? Or am I still a worthless pubbie who deserves to die in a fire? Yes Yes (if you're asking a Goon)
Siobhan MacLeary BRG Corp Acquisition Of Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:56:00 - [489] - Quote Takseen wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Can't? More like won't. Go gank the gankers, that's doing something about it. Learn to fly and fit a destroyer. There's nothing except your own apathy preventing you from taking action and fighting back. Suicide gank destroyers in destroyers? When the targets are likely to be experienced combat vets or disposable alts? And as you've admitted, there's no way to pre-empt the gank, and Concord already provides immediate retaliation. Even trying to fight back will win you some respect. The point isn't to prevent the gank or to retaliate, the point is to show some goddamn backbone and punch someone in the face for f--king with you.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:59:00 - [490] - Quote Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Even trying to fight back will win you some respect. The point isn't to prevent the gank or to retaliate, the point is to show some goddamn backbone and punch someone in the face for f--king with you. Can't prevent the gank and can't retaliate, but can get "respect" from goons. Sounds great!
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 249	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:59:00 - [491] - Quote Borsek wrote: What are you OP, some kind of EvE Breivik? Stick your manifestos where the sun don't shine, you backwards inbred lunatic. I like how you compare someone writing words about a video game to an unapologetic child killer and terrorist. If anyone here has issues it is you. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Jonah Gravenstein 228	Posted - 2012.04.28 00:59:00 - [492] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Yep! Well I haven't been blown up in a rifter by a glancing blow from an Avatar, but you know how things are ~ There are serious legitimate issues with spys in nullsec, among other things. Definitely though, the "extra-EVE" communities have an advantage of a sort over the recruitment channel/forum "community". I completely understand the issues with spies and corp thefts in null alliances, security is obviously a risk and TBH anybody that gives a newish member of their corp hangar and POS access totally deserves to be robbed blind. My other char on this account is an ex wormhole dweller who was in a small 12 man corp, the CEO of the corp no longer plays but when he did, myself and him were the only 2 consistent members of that corp, even though I'd been with the corp since its inception it was only in the run up to us closing down operations that I got POS access etc. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.
Runar Hawk GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:02:00 - [493] - Quote Borsek wrote: What are you OP, some kind of EvE Breivik? Stick your manifestos where the sun don't shine, you backwards inbred lunatic. yeah, this
Marvin Galactic Special Forces 0	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:15:00 - [494] - Quote Borsek wrote: What are you OP, some kind of EvE Breivik? Stick your manifestos where the sun don't shine, you backwards inbred lunatic. This...
Broken Thoughts ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance 14	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:28:00 - [495] - Quote james315 = instalike bookmarked for a nice read tomorrow
Siobhan MacLeary BRG Corp Acquisition Of Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:40:00 - [496] - Quote Takseen wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Even trying to fight back will win you some respect. The point isn't to prevent the gank or to retaliate, the point is to show some goddamn backbone and punch someone in the face for f--king with you. Can't prevent the gank and can't retaliate, but can get "respect" from goons. Sounds great! You're missing the point. Not all gankers are goons. If you fight back, they might actually respect you enough that they'll take you seriously when you tell them you want to be left alone - or that you want to break into nullsec and learn to PVP. Risk and reward, pal - nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Markus Reese Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION 141	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:45:00 - [497] - Quote You do realize the most impacting speeches were the shorted right? the human attention span isn't that long, no matter who you are, so in the end even open minded people like me really read nothing. The Gettysburg Address-Lincoln Pretty much most of winston churchill speeches too.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:46:00 - [498] - Quote Siobhan MacLeary wrote: You're missing the point. Not all gankers are goons. If you fight back, they might actually respect you enough that they'll take you seriously when you tell them you want to be left alone - or that you want to break into nullsec and learn to PVP. Risk and reward, pal - nothing ventured, nothing gained. >There's nothing you can do to prevent a gank or retaliate against the gankers, but if you put on a good show, they might take pity on you and let you join their cool club. Is that about it?
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 249	Posted - 2012.04.28 01:59:00 - [499] - Quote Markus Reese wrote: You do realize the most impacting speeches were the shorted right? the human attention span isn't that long, no matter who you are, so in the end even open minded people like me really read nothing. The Gettysburg Address-Lincoln Pretty much most of winston churchill speeches too. It isn't a speech. Why not just admit that you really don't have a firm grasp of the written language? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 71	Posted - 2012.04.28 02:27:00 - [500] - Quote Takseen wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Takseen wrote: Fuujin wrote: And if the argument is "4 people shouldn't be able to kill my one guy" then...I have no words to adequately describe that level of callow bleating. I'd be more annoyed at the fact that 4 people can kill one guy, and his 3(or 6, or 16) friends can't do anything about it. Can't? More like won't. Go gank the gankers, that's doing something about it. Learn to fly and fit a destroyer. There's nothing except your own apathy preventing you from taking action and fighting back. Suicide gank destroyers in destroyers? When the targets are likely to be experienced combat vets or disposable alts? And as you've admitted, there's no way to pre-empt the gank, and Concord already provides immediate retaliation. see its called trolling.... Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Corbin Blair Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 48	Posted - 2012.04.28 02:38:00 - [501] - Quote Takseen wrote: Stuff What are you supposed to be anyway, my good twin?
Brisco County The Shadow Plague 37	Posted - 2012.04.28 02:47:00 - [502] - Quote I'd complain about the length of this post, but I have a fully functional brain capable of reading things that are longer than one page.
Marvin Galactic Special Forces 0	Posted - 2012.04.28 02:49:00 - [503] - Quote Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Takseen wrote: Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Even trying to fight back will win you some respect. The point isn't to prevent the gank or to retaliate, the point is to show some goddamn backbone and punch someone in the face for f--king with you. Can't prevent the gank and can't retaliate, but can get "respect" from goons. Sounds great! You're missing the point. Not all gankers are goons. If you fight back, they might actually respect you enough that they'll take you seriously when you tell them you want to be left alone - or that you want to break into nullsec and learn to PVP. Risk and reward, pal - nothing ventured, nothing gained. bullshit....** in...** out...:)
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2012.04.28 03:30:00 - [504] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: I really doubt anyone would mind you mining in your free time. I think they were just worried that when space needed defending you wouldn't help out. If you're a miner who doesn't mind doing some PvP when the alliance needs it I don't see why they wouldn't want you. I too would want a goat I can sacrifice whenever I want and who has to pay me for the privileged of getting up at 1 AM to lose all his mining income being designated target. And his buddies can be designated target to!
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2012.04.28 03:36:00 - [505] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe I'm misreading the intent of the question then. What I'm seeing is a question of "If my primary activities are not PvP, am I welcome by people who live in PvP space?" This is considerably different from asking, "I'm new, can I PvP with you guys?" I read it as more like "I'm mainly interested in PvE, but am willing to learn to PvP with you guys too if you'll teach me." It did specifically say that he was willing to learn PvP. Willingness to learn PvP on some level would be necessary in both situations. Both should be willing, in the case of null, to join HD fleets and CTA's to contribute, but what about the guy that would rather scan for cosmic sigs than go on a roam? No he should not. You see there is this thing called "good faith". Idiots assume it. Forced PvP is easily forced billions and billions of losses if the "bosses" don't like you. Cause you is care bear. Everyone knows that and not one person here is even going to pretend that isn't the case.
Diablo Ex Pro Synergy 10	Posted - 2012.04.28 03:59:00 - [506] - Quote You just can't fix STUPID PRO SYNERGY - We salvage and process the loot, and pay YOU for it. Proven methodology, quick payout, great attitude. We'll do the hard work, you just keep missioning!!!-á - join game channel "Pro Synergy" for details.
Markus Reese Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION 142	Posted - 2012.04.28 04:01:00 - [507] - Quote Lapine Davion wrote: It isn't a speech. Why not just admit that you really don't have a firm grasp of the written language? I have a fairly comprehensive grasp of the english language, probably better than most. Manifesto is just a speech on paper. Point still stands it was alot of word without meaning because no clear statement can be derived from it.
ATTAKowl Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension 6	Posted - 2012.04.28 05:31:00 - [508] - Quote I took a shot of whiskey every time the OP typed the word 'carebears' and now very drunkenly salute his outlook on the state of Eve! Long live PVP in EVERY region!
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 73	Posted - 2012.04.28 05:41:00 - [509] - Quote Diablo Ex wrote: You just can't fix STUPID Man I with you could tho for the sake of these forums Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 1291	Posted - 2012.04.28 05:49:00 - [510] - Quote Nick Bison wrote: Methinks that level of butt-hurt hatred has to be caused by a miner stealing his girlfriend/wife. I suspect that James 315 is a sock puppet of The Mittani, spewing forth anti-miner rhetoric in an attempt to drive the destruction of Hulks, and thus drive the demand for Technetium GÇö which as it so happens is a resource that CFC has access to and control of. In the Internet Spaceships world of politics, the OP is basically agitprop. Shills and dills.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 05:54:00 - [511] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: EFF ONEF1 wrote: both sides are asking CCP to change/remove/nerf/buff they way the other side plays the game. everyone is a hypocrite. No, actually. I agreed with the miners when they wanted better tanks for hulks. It's stupid that they can't fit a tank equivalent to other medium T2 ships. They have no hardpoints and tiny drone bays so it's not like they'll suddenly become uber combat ships. I also think high sec income should be nerfed severely. I haven't mined since the beginning of Eve, but when I did, I did it in a 0.2. I'm all for miners getting all the buffs they want. Believe it or not it's possible to be a miner who isn't a carebear. I'd love if they doubled the income from arkanor in fact. I do, however, want to nerf the **** out of carebears of all kinds and won't be happy until high sec income is appropriate for the newbie area that it is. I'd like level 3 mission income to be cut in half and level 4 missions and incursions to be moved to low sec. Precisely. Ninja-nerf highsec by buffing low and null - problem solved.
DeMichael Crimson Republic University Minmatar Republic 1819	Posted - 2012.04.28 05:57:00 - [512] - Quote Jeeze Louise, thanks for providing us with this long winded bag of hot air.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 499	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:00:00 - [513] - Quote ATTAKowl wrote: I took a shot of whiskey every time the OP typed the word 'carebears' and now very drunkenly salute his outlook on the state of Eve! Long live PVP in EVERY region! His outlook seemed quite different from pvp in every region. Uh, I think? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:13:00 - [514] - Quote Andreus Ixiris wrote: Too long, didn't read most of it. What I did read was hysterical garbage. What you did not read was the truth about people like you. You don't need to read it as you already know it's true.
Elvin Gizza Gerek Ore And Moon Surveying 16	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:20:00 - [515] - Quote why didnt you write it with your main?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 499	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:26:00 - [516] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Andreus Ixiris wrote: Too long, didn't read most of it. What I did read was hysterical garbage. What you did not read was the truth about people like you. You don't need to read it as you already know it's true. If they didn't read it, how would they know what was true? Like they say, ignorance is bliss. Unlike mining ops in nullsec. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3914	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:35:00 - [517] - Quote Elvin Gizza wrote: why didnt you write it with your main? http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=52796 looks like he did! "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
Lyrrashae Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition 302	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:57:00 - [518] - Quote You, OP, are an idiot. The invention of ice-hockey is proof that Canada deserves to rule the world. Eh.
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 252	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:59:00 - [519] - Quote Lyrrashae wrote: You, OP, are an idiot. Say a person who wants to destroy the eve sandbox. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Lyrrashae Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition 302	Posted - 2012.04.28 06:59:00 - [520] - Quote Bill Lane wrote: Yay the idiot posts again! Poor little thing literally has nothing better to do than write up giant complaint threads. Seriously dude, get a girl, or a guy (whatever floats your boat), make a friend, mostly get a job. Nobody reads your long ass posts because they are ridiculously long and you are just whining and complaining. STFU because nobody cares. Thanks Actually, I did read it. All of it. And now I haz both teh sads and teh dumbz The invention of ice-hockey is proof that Canada deserves to rule the world. Eh.
Lyrrashae Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition 302	Posted - 2012.04.28 07:06:00 - [521] - Quote Aggressive Nutmeg wrote: Can someone read this and give me a one-sentence summary? Not quite one-sentence, but close enough: "Guys! Guys! This is the Mittani, and I swear, I and mine are still relevant! Really, we really are! Ummm...guys? Where you all goin', guys? Hey, come back!" (Slowly fading whisper/whimper) "Guys...?" The invention of ice-hockey is proof that Canada deserves to rule the world. Eh.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3915	Posted - 2012.04.28 07:09:00 - [522] - Quote Lyrrashae wrote: Aggressive Nutmeg wrote: Can someone read this and give me a one-sentence summary? Not quite one-sentence, but close enough: "Guys! Guys! This is the Mittani, and I swear, I and mine are still relevant! Really, we really are! Ummm...guys? Where you all goin', guys? Hey, come back!" (Slowly fading whisper/whimper) "Guys...?" please keep talking about relevance, it's ironic coming from you "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
Lyrrashae Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition 302	Posted - 2012.04.28 07:14:00 - [523] - Quote Lapine Davion wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: You, OP, are an idiot. Say a person who wants to destroy the eve sandbox. Pathetic little goon-fellator. How's that goon-***** taste, then? The invention of ice-hockey is proof that Canada deserves to rule the world. Eh.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3917	Posted - 2012.04.28 07:19:00 - [524] - Quote Lyrrashae wrote: Lapine Davion wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: You, OP, are an idiot. Say a person who wants to destroy the eve sandbox. Pathetic little goon-fellator. How's that goon-***** taste, then? i wonder what all this bitterness stems from "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 501	Posted - 2012.04.28 07:24:00 - [525] - Quote Andski wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: Lapine Davion wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: You, OP, are an idiot. Say a person who wants to destroy the eve sandbox. Pathetic little goon-fellator. How's that goon-***** taste, then? i wonder what all this bitterness stems from Failure. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Seleia O'Sinnor Drop of Honey 212	Posted - 2012.04.28 08:12:00 - [526] - Quote Wow another lunatic post. You should write books which noone reads. I had to switch my mouse wheel to a higher sensitivity to get to the bottom! But thanks for posting and welcome to Eve, you are allowed to jettison what it's in your brain. Expect can flipping. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing.
Seleia O'Sinnor Drop of Honey 212	Posted - 2012.04.28 08:13:00 - [527] - Quote Lyrrashae wrote: Bill Lane wrote: Yay the idiot posts again! Poor little thing literally has nothing better to do than write up giant complaint threads. Seriously dude, get a girl, or a guy (whatever floats your boat), make a friend, mostly get a job. Nobody reads your long ass posts because they are ridiculously long and you are just whining and complaining. STFU because nobody cares. Thanks Actually, I did read it. All of it. And now I haz both teh sads and teh dumbz Watch all episodes of Star Trek Voyager, I think the brain damage would be equivalent. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3917	Posted - 2012.04.28 08:15:00 - [528] - Quote Seleia O'Sinnor wrote: Wow another lunatic post. You should write books which noone reads. I had to switch my mouse wheel to a higher sensitivity to get to the bottom! But thanks for posting and welcome to Eve, you are allowed to jettison what it's in your brain. Expect can flipping. another post that fails to discuss the subject matter thanks for validating his points "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
Gorenaire Theosophical Society 4	Posted - 2012.04.28 08:26:00 - [529] - Quote 1/ if you want people to read your post and give some serious thought about it, you should divide the length 10 times 2/ we re talking about a game here, its not like the meaning of life, isn't it ? 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 6/ teh carebears dont want to transform eve online into full pve, they just want to be left in peace in high sec minding their own business , whats wrong with that ? aren't they paying customers as you are ? 7/ following point 6, its seems to me that its rather you who want to impose your view about how htis game should be played 8/ there is more "carebears in low/null sec that in high sec, what's exactly blobbing apart try to outnumber your ennemies in order to not loose your ship ? why do you need 0.0 jump bridge, upgraded systems , and ocean of blue 20 jumps aroudn if you re so hardcore ? 9/ let the people play the game as they want , there is no better way of playing , be it pve or pvp, high sec or low or null sec. If you re so eager to pvp, why do you spend time ganking defenseless miners in high sec ?
Danica Duan Kronos TEchnologies 11	Posted - 2012.04.28 08:36:00 - [530] - Quote Like gigantic wind from butt, OP's shiptoast funny to hear but stink to high heaven.
Tango Zulu GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.28 10:19:00 - [531] - Quote Good read; very true, but I'd put an addendum in the last post: A lot of people with little economic sense and a lot of impotent rage think that you're saying it will be a rainbow paradise if mining is removed from EVE. You should drive home that the inflation we're seeing is because of nullsec belt/sanctum botters and their as profitable (remember the "Should nullsec be equal to or more profitable than highsec?" meme?), but four times as pretentious counterparts, highsec mission botters. Trit wouldn't cost more than 1.5 ISK/u if no one would pay that much, and the producers who made less profit off selling their assembled ravens and drakes would turn around and buy the same things they're buying now, just at a lower price. The flood of ISK coming in each day from automated sources is what's giving you your high prices, not your supply of minerals. Cutting the supply of minerals would only raise the price if the economy is in a perpetual state of inflation that will pay them increasing prices for the same thing. Lets say you fatties sold hotdogs for a living, and you could for some reason alter events in history. Now if you curbed the effects of inflation that over time took your hotdogs from $0.25 to $1.50 (I haven't bought a hot dog at a stand in years, I don't know, these prices are arbitrary), would you still charge $1.50 to keep making the same amount of revenue, even though your expenses were 1/6th what they'd normally be? No, not if you wanted to stay in business anyways. As this economy is a network of items tied together, like a real one, you'd take your profits off your $0.25 hotdogs, and go to another stand after you sold a few, and buy yourself a $0.25 hamburger, because they wouldn't have raised their price either. illegally exploited ISK faucets are the reason for your ship prices. That's not what this is about. It is about breaking the fundamental principles of this game: a game of risk-to-reward ratios where the least risky place is adequately rewarding to not go out to greener pastures. Pastures that were greened with the most underrated fertilizer in history: blood.
Brock Khan SQUINGEL GIANTSBANE. 23	Posted - 2012.04.28 10:22:00 - [532] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3922	Posted - 2012.04.28 10:25:00 - [533] - Quote Gorenaire wrote: 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 3) not the game for them 4) bottom rung of the ladder 5) counterpoint: eve's been running since 2003 just fine "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 667	Posted - 2012.04.28 10:30:00 - [534] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Quote: Maybe I'm misreading the intent of the question then. What I'm seeing is a question of "If my primary activities are not PvP, am I welcome by people who live in PvP space?" This is considerably different from asking, "I'm new, can I PvP with you guys?" It did specifically say that he was willing to learn PvP. Let me start from the last sentence: he did specifically say that yet since he mentioned PvE he has not been answered at all. Coincidence? Because a big issues is not (just) about being carebear or not, but just being forced into "THE ONE AND RIGHT SANDBOX". This reeks of WoW, with the only difference than in EvE it's players imposing their canned path upon you. Corbin Blair wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as PvEer you are seen as worthless garbage. He said he was willing to learn to PvP. Most people don't have a problem with PvE. It's not like nullbears don't PvE all the time themselves. What they have a problem with is people refusing to pull their own weight and sit there and mine while everyone else is out dying. Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as industrialist they tell "lol we already have indy alts nor we'll give you access to the POSes". - If you want to join a 0.0 corp as miner they tell you "LOL no we don't want botters". Join a different corp then. They sound like muppets anyway. You're obviously not going to get POS access on day one in any corp though for security reasons. I have joined several, they all suck. The only one that was great, was Dark Rising, but besides they were absolutely focused only on PvP, the commitment required was measured in multiple PvP hours a day. While it was much fun, I just did not have the time for that any more. I join an hi sec mercs corp doing exactly this every day since about a week (have 0 industry skills on this character anyway). What you say does not work, you seem only to have practice on the forums. If you want to really kill suicide gankers there's a quite delicate SEBO insta-lock setup that works when the ganker gets there (most are -10 sec), involving at least 2 ships. The defending group has miner + 2 required high skilled pilots. Even then, it takes few seconds not paying total attention and something like a Mackinaw will be melted in few instants under your eyes. Also, apathy, really? The bots have been mostly wiped off, even in ice belts. Bots were nicely squashed by CCP Sreegs, there are 1-2 in 10 now (were 8 in 10 till before Fanfest). The other miners woke up, started hiring defense merc corps, they communicate incoming known hostiles and so on. Stop the prejudices, times are changing. Slowly but surely. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 667	Posted - 2012.04.28 10:32:00 - [535] - Quote Andski wrote: Gorenaire wrote: 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 3) not the game for them 4) bottom rung of the ladder 5) counterpoint: eve's been running since 2003 just fine Counter-counter point: in the "golden age" of super pro committed PVPers EvE counted 30k subs, not 300k. You need the bottom rungs of the ladders. As a bonus they give many baddies the feeling of being pro. Siobhan MacLeary wrote: Can't? More like won't. Go gank the gankers, that's doing something about it. Learn to fly and fit a destroyer. There's nothing except your own apathy preventing you from taking action and fighting back. I join an hi sec mercs corp doing exactly this every day since about a week (have 0 industry skills on this character anyway). What you say does not work, you seem only to have practice on the forums. If you want to really kill suicide gankers there's a quite delicate SEBO insta-lock setup that works when the ganker gets there (most are -10 sec), involving at least 2 ships. The defending group has miner + 2 required high skilled pilots. Even then, it takes few seconds not paying total attention and something like a Mackinaw will be melted in few instants under your eyes. Also, apathy, really? The bots have been mostly wiped off, even in ice belts. Bots were nicely squashed by CCP Sreegs, there are 1-2 in 10 now (were 8 in 10 till before Fanfest). The other miners woke up, started hiring defense merc corps, they communicate incoming known hostiles and so on. Stop the prejudices, times are changing. Slowly but surely. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2012.04.28 10:34:00 - [536] - Quote Corbin Blair wrote: Takseen wrote: Stuff What are you supposed to be anyway, my good twin? The resemblance is uncanny.
Farrisen MoaR ChickeN 71	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:02:00 - [537] - Quote Mentorm wrote: Too Long Didn't Read ^This http://i.imgur.com/DWBuV.png Originally by: CCP Spitfire: It's because of falcon.
Gorenaire Theosophical Society 5	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:03:00 - [538] - Quote Andski wrote: Gorenaire wrote: 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 3) not the game for them 4) bottom rung of the ladder 5) counterpoint: eve's been running since 2003 just fine Eve has been runnning fine since 2003 because it offers a wide range of environment, from relative high sec safety to full blown pvp environment with no local like wormholes. Now if you remove the notion of protected space like high sec and low sec sentries, the subs would dive big timeand in the end, subscriptions are what matter.
Tango Zulu GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 12	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:11:00 - [539] - Quote Lyrrashae wrote: Anything by this unique snowflake. Wait, you do realize the near-crushing weight of the irony of you even existing in this thread for reasons other than complete and utter approval, right? Your corporation name is "Crushed Ambitions" if you never noticed. If this applies to others, you're acknowledging that EVE has an element of PvP that is integral to your playstyle, or at least the people who manage your corp do. Where the aforementioned carebears wish total safety, we combat-oriented people want it to be as variable as anywhere, just the penalties to be more severe in highsec. This provides the balance. Damaging security status and standings making you a target everywhere, guaranteed loss of your ship, and I even approve of the removal of insurance payout from deaths from Concord. These punish you, and make you pick your targets with more care. Entirely favoring one side or another leads to losing more people, because it shows favoritism. If you threaten to leave because you're not the favorite this time, instead of trying to balance it (or in the case of the people we've been talking about, if you've ever been treated as not the favorite for more than seven seconds), we're probably better off without you, because now a better game can flourish and attract more people who will be actually playing >0% of the time. Here's the part where you say: "But you complained about Incarna, and got most of it set back because they reallocated resources to your toys!" No, we reallocated assets back to EVE from paying to be beta testers for a game without a release date. "But what about titan tracking and doomsdays; huh, huh, HUH?" No again. What did we say about balance? Do you want Concord killing those who suicide gank you in highsec? Yes? Then you are agreeing that you don't want those who kill you to be able to with impunity unless they earn it by having better tactics or sometimes simply having more on the field. A couple Titans shouldn't be able to kill fleets in nullsec unkillably, the same way a suicide ganker shouldn't be able to kill everyone who doesn't fit guns in highsec with impunity in a single ship. Balance. On the other hand, if your corp name applies to yourself you're the type to quit and whine when things don't go your way... Which would explain much of your reasoning.
Velicitia Open Designs 894	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:23:00 - [540] - Quote Gorenaire wrote: 1/ if you want people to read your post and give some serious thought about it, you should divide the length 10 times 2/ we re talking about a game here, its not like the meaning of life, isn't it ? 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 6/ teh carebears dont want to transform eve online into full pve, they just want to be left in peace in high sec minding their own business , whats wrong with that ? aren't they paying customers as you are ? 7/ following point 6, its seems to me that its rather you who want to impose your view about how htis game should be played 8/ there is more "carebears in low/null sec that in high sec, what's exactly blobbing apart try to outnumber your ennemies in order to not loose your ship ? why do you need 0.0 jump bridge, upgraded systems , and ocean of blue 20 jumps aroudn if you re so hardcore ? 9/ let the people play the game as they want , there is no better way of playing , be it pve or pvp, high sec or low or null sec. If you re so eager to pvp, why do you spend time ganking defenseless miners in high sec ? 1. Long yes, but it was a hell of a lot better than a fair portion of what you see on the forums here. 2. Internet spaceships is serious business 3. Wrong game. EvE isn't for everyone, and that's something we have to accept. 4. Because they fight tooth and nail to have the danger element removed from the game, in order to AFK-mine in a pimp hulk 5. Seems to have been working just fine for the last 9 years or so. When CCP moved away from that business model (the :18 months: era), they ended up going into a tail spin. 6. People have to realize that this isn't "every other MMO" (AKA WOW). Just read the "Features and Ideas" section for a week. You'll almost daily see new posts of "so, I can't be bothered to look up every other terribad [power-leveling\|arena\|hisec should be safe\|etc] idea that is exactly like mine, because I'm a special little snowflake and my idea is original." *I AM AN EMPIRE MINER* and every ***** one of these ideas makes a little part of me die inside. Sure, I'd love to go back out to null, but after dealing with Molle and the bullshit politics out that way (remember BoB? I was there when they accidentally themselves), it's just not for me ... maybe someday I'll head back out there. 7. CCP has allowed ... no, encouraged** the player-created events and "stories" that come out of these events (including the unwanted and unexpected violencing of one's ships). Yeah, there have been a few cases of them stepping in (notably m0o), but in general they leave us to our own devices. When you lose something, best response is "I didn't want that [ship] anyway" 8. They did take that space from someone. JBs and the other stuff are just a bonus for "OK, you threw 900 billion isk into this campaign, and it paid off". 9. "If you're not with me, you're with them" ... think about it for a bit (hint: drone and mission loot nerfs)
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:36:00 - [541] - Quote this rant is TLDR, but i read it cos i wanted to understand the peverse mindset behind it, call it intelectual curiosity, but hey his main is a goon so we expect low intensity thinking. Sadly OP is delusional, thinks carebears made incarna happen when it was greed of some of CCP-¦s higher management, which everyone went apeshit over, carebears and yarrs alike who not blinded by the $ signs all realised that only a few stations would ever be viable as fully functional dynamic incarna locations a fact that many in CCP missed (and still do today). All the -¦nerfs-¦, i.e the loss of insurance for gank squads which had to be larger to counter a buffed concord that was then avoided by bomerangs which while neat was only because CCP never really thought about concord-¦s role and how to effectivly do it, its an authorised gank so they should scram and web offenders, so is it the loss of isk causing grief and not by PvP he is maoning about or CCP actually begining to think about it properly?. The war dec things, well they are also avoided by getting on an alt and doing stuff elsewhere, so is that a call for 1 account with 1 character per real life person as the new norm with a SS number like the china server requires/d? Op the gets desulional about high sec being safe, ffs did he forget his meds?, with all the follow on ranting really is about bots, which deserve to be killed (and i do at an average 70m loss) and permabanned, and ppl who gather wealth by mining to support all those POS-¦s and make all those ships, mods and everything else in eve that he uses every time he logs on. Null sec died as as things scaled up everything had to change, if your alliance holds a decent amount of space and defends it well mining with in a rorqual fleet produces great returns and makes logistics just moon goods out and what ever is available cheaper in high sec than to produce in so ur not running one way empty, sound economics, hey how may plex does the largest richest alliances make and spread about a month (no cash changing hands ever, nudge nudge, wink wink). In eve your always target, that will never change, its essential to what eve is, the cost of killing that target varies and he just wants it cheap so he dont have to mission on his alts so much to pay for it maybe?, or is it that he hates the base of everything in eve, you know the people who make his ships and mods happen?, or if he supplies his own does he hate himself?. James look in mirror and wonder at your intelectual shallowness, CCP will always be changing eve, its evolutionary, it grows and as it does what was useful is no long so, you were born with an appendix, you should understand that change happens, but you undock and you are a target, that will never change no matter if your a carebear a yarr or just multi talented, as that is eve and its philosophy at its essence.
Citizen Smif DarK IntenTionZ Stop Exploding You Cowards 90	Posted - 2012.04.28 11:37:00 - [542] - Quote The Fuhrer is back. Hail!
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 12:11:00 - [543] - Quote Gorenaire wrote: Andski wrote: Gorenaire wrote: 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 3) not the game for them 4) bottom rung of the ladder 5) counterpoint: eve's been running since 2003 just fine Eve has been runnning fine since 2003 because it offers a wide range of environment, from relative high sec safety to full blown pvp environment with no local like wormholes. Now if you remove the notion of protected space like high sec and low sec sentries, the subs would dive big timeand in the end, subscriptions are what matter. The point is that if highsec PVP gets nerfed to a degree where it is no longer feasible, EVE will cease to be what it is. The only alternative for CCP would be to nerf highsec income hardcore, as in making it 10 times less profitable be either reducing income in high or boosting low/null. If I can be at 80% income rate with 100% safety, why would I bother taking even 1% risk? 35bil mission ships would be the standard in highsec, grinding ISK at an even faster rate than your average cost-efficient ship in low/null. If your vision of EVE has room for a 100% risk-free environment which also provides relatively good income then perhaps your should find a different game. Who do you think shows up at fanfest? PVPers. Who was there initially when EVE began? PVPers. Who constitutes the backbone of the advertised EVE gameplay? PVPers. Who engages in meaningful/long lasting/world-changing events? You guessed right: PVPers. The pure PVEer could play EVE Offline and have the same impact on the world. They day CCP mans up and decides to take the unsub hit from all those self-righteous carebears, that will be one glorious day indeed. If on the other hand EVE becomes another carebear MMO, I won't even feel bad leaving the game as the game would no longer exist. Either scenario works for me to be honest, my life does not depend on me being successful in EVE Online.
Etil DeLaFuente New Eclipse Initiative Mercenaries 5	Posted - 2012.04.28 12:26:00 - [544] - Quote Show us on the doll where BoB touched you. Apart from that, op made some valid points, Eve is PVP and must remain that way whatever sec status system you are in.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:16:00 - [545] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I skipped truckloads of OP drivel to focus on this: James 315 wrote: They may have spent years logged in, but did they ever experience anything? The first time the game evoked a genuine human emotion from the miner is when he saw me kill his ship. When he was spending his years carting around ore, it was not EVE--it was a joke. When I arrived in his ice field, having carefully crafted a way to destroy his supposedly invincible ship, and having painstakingly calculated the means to kill his supposedly unkillable pod--that was the first time he ever played EVE. He would say it was an act of griefing. I would call it a masterpiece. He should be, if not grateful for being killed, at least appreciative of the art. And what about the carebear's vision? What do carebears want to do in their fantasy EVE, a sterilized PvE game? For the most part, nothing. Who are you to decide how others are meant to play or how good has to be their experience in EvE? Leave to CCP to mediate between the differing requests. Edit: Profanity removed, CCP Phantom LOL all I read is: bla bla bla, I got owned by CCP Phantom. But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? Sounds like you are then one imposing playstyles for a SCI-FI PVE SOLO which is why no PVPer will take your opinion seriously. This is OUR game, not yours. As long as I can keep doing solo PVE outside of highsec quite easily, I will never support your closed-minded opinion. If you want no risks, why should you get any reward?
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:22:00 - [546] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing.
Max Essen Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd 11	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:29:00 - [547] - Quote OP needs to seek professional help. Massive post, whining about how "others" playstyle is bad. Get a grip.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:37:00 - [548] - Quote Razgriz Shaishi wrote: Read all of it, and I must say, I am amazed by the depths of your obsession. You have reached a new, never before seen level of obsession on the internet, and that is quite a feat. Now please register for residence in the nearest insane asylum. "I came, I read, I trolled". I lolled.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:46:00 - [549] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space?
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 61	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:53:00 - [550] - Quote Max Essen wrote: OP needs to seek professional help. Massive post, whining about how "others" playstyle is bad. Get a grip. He's whining because the "others" who play in such a way are not content to just play. They want to ruin the game for everyone else.(not like goons though, they want to change how the game works) Most of the critics in this thread really show that people critic what they cant even be bothered to read or simply understand **** all of what they read. I'm really inclined to think the unwillingness to read is tied to the known inability to understand so in the end most people criticizing are just stupid and ignorant.
Sigurd Sig Hansen Hedion University Amarr Empire 74	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:54:00 - [551] - Quote Seleia O'Sinnor wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: Bill Lane wrote: Yay the idiot posts again! Poor little thing literally has nothing better to do than write up giant complaint threads. Seriously dude, get a girl, or a guy (whatever floats your boat), make a friend, mostly get a job. Nobody reads your long ass posts because they are ridiculously long and you are just whining and complaining. STFU because nobody cares. Thanks Actually, I did read it. All of it. And now I haz both teh sads and teh dumbz Watch all episodes of Star Trek Voyager, I think the brain damage would be equivalent. no... Enterprise. I liked Voyager Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Kengutsi Akira Ministry of War Amarr Empire 451	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:55:00 - [552] - Quote Andski wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: Aggressive Nutmeg wrote: Can someone read this and give me a one-sentence summary? Not quite one-sentence, but close enough: "Guys! Guys! This is the Mittani, and I swear, I and mine are still relevant! Really, we really are! Ummm...guys? Where you all goin', guys? Hey, come back!" (Slowly fading whisper/whimper) "Guys...?" please keep talking about relevance, it's ironic coming from you Hey where you been Andski? You havent been posting almost ...thirty days.... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909 My stance on WiS (updated)
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 61	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:56:00 - [553] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? Also i'd like to point out something: removing pvp from eve would not turn into wow. Wow pve content was actually amazingly well done (at least years ago when i played). And pvp was built to compliment pve. Eve pve is worse than tetris and is built to allow you to pvp. So if you damage pvp in anyway you're left with nothing, or worse than nothing.
Kengutsi Akira Ministry of War Amarr Empire 451	Posted - 2012.04.28 13:58:00 - [554] - Quote Gorenaire wrote: Andski wrote: Gorenaire wrote: 3/ what's teh big deal if people want to be risk free in high sec ? 4/ why "carebears" would be second class Eve citizens ? 5/ you realize that full pvp centric games are bad business model , right? 3) not the game for them 4) bottom rung of the ladder 5) counterpoint: eve's been running since 2003 just fine Eve has been runnning fine since 2003 because it offers a wide range of environment, from relative high sec safety to full blown pvp environment with no local like wormholes. Now if you remove the notion of protected space like high sec and low sec sentries, the subs would dive big timeand in the end, subscriptions are what matter. If this wasnt true we'd still be "watching what they do not listening to what they say" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909 My stance on WiS (updated)
Kengutsi Akira Ministry of War Amarr Empire 451	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:00:00 - [555] - Quote stupid too many quotes Just Alter wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? Also i'd like to point out something: removing pvp from eve would not turn into wow. Wow pve content was actually amazingly well done (at least years ago when i played). And pvp was built to compliment pve. Eve pve is worse than tetris and is built to allow you to pvp. So if you damage pvp in anyway you're left with nothing, or worse than nothing. agreed. I dont wanna pvp myself but PVP provides the thrill where I could die at any time thst I dont get from most other games. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909 My stance on WiS (updated)
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:06:00 - [556] - Quote Gerald Taric wrote: OP tries to hit Gerald with MASSIVE POSTING. "TL;DR" shild from Geralds ship repels it. Before i read all of this massive wall of words, i wish to know one thing: I myself consider me being a (proud) carebear, because i avoid PvP and prefer PvE action in WH- and HighSec-space. Nevertheless ... i'm pretty fine with the "there's no save place in EVE" and do NOT want it to be removed. In fact i consider it as a challenge. Therefore ... how is a carebear defined in EVE? You sir, are no carebear. Mystery solved. We can be friends and call each other carebears if you wish though
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:11:00 - [557] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? I do like Pvp. I just don't like Eve's pvp, so I don't participate in it. If you want more people to participate in the pvp, writing multi-page manifestos about how people who don't like Eve's pvp are Playing The Game Wrong won't do you any good. You either make the pvp more appealing, or you accept that the type of pvp you enjoy isn't very popular.
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 0	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:12:00 - [558] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? I do like Pvp. I just don't like Eve's pvp, so I don't participate in it. If you want more people to participate in the pvp, writing multi-page manifestos about how people who don't like Eve's pvp are Playing The Game Wrong won't do you any good. You either make the pvp more appealing, or you accept that the type of pvp you enjoy isn't very popular. EvE Online is not the game for you.
Kengutsi Akira Ministry of War Amarr Empire 452	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:14:00 - [559] - Quote Vaju Enki wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? I do like Pvp. I just don't like Eve's pvp, so I don't participate in it. If you want more people to participate in the pvp, writing multi-page manifestos about how people who don't like Eve's pvp are Playing The Game Wrong won't do you any good. You either make the pvp more appealing, or you accept that the type of pvp you enjoy isn't very popular. EvE Online is not the game for you. also; telling other ppl what game is/isnt for them really doesnt help plus I dont see how making PVP better/more popular makex EVE bnot the game for the poster. Are you saying EVE's PVP is traditionally boring and must stay that way? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909 My stance on WiS (updated)
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:15:00 - [560] - Quote Vaju Enki wrote: EvE Online is not the game for you. My subscription fees say otherwise.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 55	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:15:00 - [561] - Quote Kestrix wrote: Corbin Blair wrote: Kestrix wrote: Thats wrong, Null sec mining does happen and is very profitable. Says the guy in the high sec corp. And of course I couldn't possibley have firends in other none hi-sec corps. Infact I'm in the process of moving out to null sec, you guys play too rough in Hi-sec for me. We're just bustin' your balls. But I have seen the true face of null mining... and it is scary.
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:15:00 - [562] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Gerald Taric wrote: OP tries to hit Gerald with MASSIVE POSTING. "TL;DR" shild from Geralds ship repels it. Before i read all of this massive wall of words, i wish to know one thing: I myself consider me being a (proud) carebear, because i avoid PvP and prefer PvE action in WH- and HighSec-space. Nevertheless ... i'm pretty fine with the "there's no save place in EVE" and do NOT want it to be removed. In fact i consider it as a challenge. Therefore ... how is a carebear defined in EVE? You sir, are no carebear. Mystery solved. We can be friends and call each other carebears if you wish though This thread is not bashing carebears, it is bashing whiny misguided witless idiots who wants to ruin the game by changing its rules. Being a carebear is fine, being an evil moronic ****** who want to ruin eve for everyone it's not.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 56	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:17:00 - [563] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? I do like Pvp. I just don't like Eve's pvp, so I don't participate in it. If you want more people to participate in the pvp, writing multi-page manifestos about how people who don't like Eve's pvp are Playing The Game Wrong won't do you any good. You either make the pvp more appealing, or you accept that the type of pvp you enjoy isn't very popular. The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously.
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 65	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:18:00 - [564] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: But in all seriousness, care to explain why do you play EVE, the best SCI-FI PVP MMO as it is advertised? For the Sci-fi and the persistent game world with other people in it. The pvp itself is unappealing. Then you got the wrong game brah, and I don't want you to like PVP because I do. It just sucks you play a game where PVP is all around you, even in highsec, right? Removing PVP from anywhere would hurt what the game was initially all about. Do you really so openly demand EVE to mold into wow-in-space? I do like Pvp. I just don't like Eve's pvp, so I don't participate in it. If you want more people to participate in the pvp, writing multi-page manifestos about how people who don't like Eve's pvp are Playing The Game Wrong won't do you any good. You either make the pvp more appealing, or you accept that the type of pvp you enjoy isn't very popular. Aaaaahhhhhh why will nobody read the first post? I dont really like eve pvp too much myself (at least ~elite pvp~). I very much prefer an fps or an RTS for pvp. This is not the issue here: if you dont like pvp fine, just dont whine to have the game changed!
Kengutsi Akira Ministry of War Amarr Empire 452	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:19:00 - [565] - Quote Takseen wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: EvE Online is not the game for you. My subscription fees say otherwise. Edit : And if Eve's pvp is super duper fine as it is, why are CCP devoting an entire expansion to basically fixing wardecs and Faction Warfare? Theyre not fixing Faction Warfare as much as theyre forcing all of t2 research though it. And I dont understand AT ALL how EVE isnt the game for you when you said make PVP more interesting. Sounds like EVE isnt the game for him given he thinks EVE PVP ISNT interesting. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909 My stance on WiS (updated)
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 117	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:20:00 - [566] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so.
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 2	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:22:00 - [567] - Quote Takseen wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: EvE Online is not the game for you. My subscription fees say otherwise. Edit : And if Eve's pvp is super duper fine as it is, why are CCP devoting an entire expansion to basically fixing wardecs and Faction Warfare? It is just say that you have no clue in what you spend your money on. Some people buy fps games i don't like fps games, some pay EvE subscription and don't like EvE. Carebears are wierd.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 56	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:22:00 - [568] - Quote Takseen wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: EvE Online is not the game for you. My subscription fees say otherwise. So if I subscribe to a Tango dance class, then demand them to teach me Baseball because I payed for GODDAMN BASEBALL, my argument still holds? c'mon maaan! We all signed up for this, some us will like the game other won't. I'm sorry you lost your money, I truly am.
Bluddwolf Heimatar Military Industries 22	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:25:00 - [569] - Quote James 315 wrote: Given forum readers' complaints about the length of my previous manifesto, I opted to keep it short and sweet this time. My motto is that you should never use 20,000 words when 15,000 will do. I quickly scrolled down after reading this and realized..... If your first statement was untrue, what value could there be in anything else you had to say? TL;DR One premise that you do base your argument on is not clearly based on facts. You do not make a good connection between HiSec mining somehow eliminating Null sec PVP and Null Sec mining. The only reason why there is less Null sec PVP is because there are fewer Null sec miners. There are fewer Null sec miners, because the Null Sec PvPers were too good at what they did. This drove the Null sec miners to do a cost-benefit analysis and they came to one conclusion. Less reward and less risk has a better payout in the long term. Now the Hi Sec space is cluttered with miners. Mining everything they can get their lasers into. They are here because Null Sec PVP is threatening EVE. Sooner or later, the miners will find there are no roids to pick clean in Hi sec. They will move back to low / Null sec. The PVPers will follow their prey. We are back to square one! What you have here is the laws of nature and supply and demand economics working together, Neither PVE mining or PVE ganking are killing the game. They are just creating an ever cyclic migration pattern. To join Heimatar Military Industries-á visit website or conatct Bluddwolf in-gamewww.hmi.guildlaunch.com
Solhild Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 682	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:31:00 - [570] - Quote So, CCP nerfs and buffs things to change flavour of the month/year ships and/or tactics. Keeps EVE fresh for all player styles - OP doesn't like. Just about sums it up
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:32:00 - [571] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. Ok I reread "how carebears killed nullsec pvp", as ridiculous as the idea was. I get what he was saying, you need someone or something for the pvpers on either side to fight over. At the time, it was mining fleets. Over time, miners presumably found this less and less appealing. That horse has bolted, I don't think you can entice them back. You(or CCP) need to come up with another conflict driver in nullsec.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 56	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:34:00 - [572] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so. In complete honesty, just between you and me, I saw the title and was like "meh, not sure any sort of argument can lead me to believe that..." It is quite outrageous, I agree. What is even more outrageous is that he's right.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:35:00 - [573] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: EvE Online is not the game for you. My subscription fees say otherwise. So if I subscribe to a Tango dance class, then demand them to teach me Baseball because I payed for GODDAMN BASEBALL, my argument still holds? c'mon maaan! We all signed up for this, some us will like the game other won't. I'm sorry you lost your money, I truly am. I subscribed to a game that had a vast, single-shard universe/server, a wealth of ship, module and skill choices, and a vast selection of space related activities to choose from. One of which was pvp, which I concluded was not in my interest any more then mining was. That game has not fundamentally changed since I arrived. Its the zealots on either side who want to either turf everyone bar the newbies out of highsec, or prevent all violence in highsec that are trying to fundamentally change the game. And I'm not a fan of that.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 58	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:42:00 - [574] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. Ok I reread "how carebears killed nullsec pvp", as ridiculous as the idea was. I get what he was saying, you need someone or something for the pvpers on either side to fight over. At the time, it was mining fleets. Over time, miners presumably found this less and less appealing. That horse has bolted, I don't think you can entice them back. You(or CCP) need to come up with another conflict driver in nullsec. All that is required is a proper risk/reward distribution. Highsec gave too much rewards for the lack of risks. Hell, I would not mind there being a 100% safezone if the rewards there are 0%. Want 99% risks? Then you get 1% rewards. At least they can still be AFK and keep doing what they are doing, without the fear of losing their ship. But wait, what? They ask for better rewards? Why do they even need rewards in the first place if they have nothing to replace. The argument falls flat pretty hard at this point. I'm sure if carebears described in the OP could mine docked in the station they would.
Just Alter Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 66	Posted - 2012.04.28 14:43:00 - [575] - Quote Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so. Don't go around blaming his ability to write as an excuse for your inability to read, understand or remember.
Thor Kerrigan Guardians of Asceticism 58	Posted - 2012.04.28 15:09:00 - [576] - Quote Takseen wrote: I subscribed to a game that had a vast, single-shard universe/server, a wealth of ship, module and skill choices, and a vast selection of space related activities to choose from. One of which was pvp, which I concluded was not in my interest any more then mining was. That game has not fundamentally changed since I arrived. Its the zealots on either side who want to either turf everyone bar the newbies out of highsec, or prevent all violence in highsec that are trying to fundamentally change the game. And I'm not a fan of that. You represent/decribe the "compromise" state between PVPers and Carebears. However, as the OP points out, carebears are not interested in a compromise state and they confirmed it to him on several occasions. None of the "pro leet PVPers" I had the chance to discuss this with said they were completely against a form of "safer" space. They are quite aware trial accounts need that space, as do the occasional solo or extremely casual players. But here is the catch: EVE can't be full of trial accounts, solo or extremely casual players.
Hamshoe School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.04.28 15:15:00 - [577] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: You represent/decribe the "compromise" state between PVPers and Carebears. However, as the OP points out, carebears are not interested in a compromise state and they confirmed it to him on several occasions. How convenient is it that the 'carebears" are all share an identical opinion? Not too mention that the OP was able to talk to them all. I mean, except for that feature the kind of sweeping generalization the OP is peddling would be instantly recognized as utter BS.
Mutnin SQUIDS. 165	Posted - 2012.04.28 15:23:00 - [578] - Quote I thought I could write some long posts..
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 124	Posted - 2012.04.28 15:27:00 - [579] - Quote Just Alter wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so. Don't go around blaming his ability to write as an excuse for your inability to read, understand or remember. He could have said just as much with a quarter of the words. He could have written it a lot better too. If a point's worth making, its worth making well.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 124	Posted - 2012.04.28 15:43:00 - [580] - Quote Thor Kerrigan wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. Ok I reread "how carebears killed nullsec pvp", as ridiculous as the idea was. I get what he was saying, you need someone or something for the pvpers on either side to fight over. At the time, it was mining fleets. Over time, miners presumably found this less and less appealing. That horse has bolted, I don't think you can entice them back. You(or CCP) need to come up with another conflict driver in nullsec. All that is required is a proper risk/reward distribution. Highsec gave too much rewards for the lack of risks. Hell, I would not mind there being a 100% safezone if the rewards there are 0%. Want 99% risks? Then you get 1% rewards. At least they can still be AFK and keep doing what they are doing, without the fear of losing their ship. But wait, what? They ask for better rewards? Why do they even need rewards in the first place if they have nothing to replace. The argument falls flat pretty hard at this point. I'm sure if carebears described in the OP could mine docked in the station they would. I disagree, I think the whole concept of needing a "worker caste" that the pvpers need to fight over in nullsec is not useful. It'd be like needing someone to play as the flag in Capture the Flag games.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 511	Posted - 2012.04.28 15:44:00 - [581] - Quote Just Alter wrote: Takseen wrote: Thor Kerrigan wrote: The worst part is that the OP actually covers the point you just made. Seriously. He could have covered the Grandfather Paradox and the Unified Field Theory for all I can remember. The posts weren't well written enough for me to bother reading them at length. I'll go back and have a look so. Don't go around blaming his ability to write as an excuse for your inability to read, understand or remember. Inability to read is a major problem. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd
Testerxnot Sheepherder DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew 144	Posted - 2012.04.28 16:18:00 - [582] - Quote Ignorance is a major problem. See: Goons
Jessie42 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 72	Posted - 2012.04.28 16:20:00 - [583] - Quote Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote: Ignorance is a major problem. See: Goons Yep, Goons are the ignorant ones here.
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 253	Posted - 2012.04.28 16:21:00 - [584] - Quote Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote: Ignorance is a major problem. See: Snotshot FTFY Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Hatch Nasty Nasty Enterprises 17	Posted - 2012.04.28 16:28:00 - [585] - Quote I'm laid up today nursing a bum knee and so I've got some time on my hands. I read the OP's entire "manifesto" and I will say, I agree with some points, and I disagree with others. I think hisec does represent too much reward for too little risk. I also think mining in general should be more active play and less AFK click button, get bacon. It's my opinion that carebear miners are missing the point of EVE, not because they mine, but because they seem to believe they should be able to do so in absolute safety. I think mining should be engaging, and something that requires strategy, effort, cunning, planning, and cooperation - not something that can be done while watching a movie. I don't agree that the solution to the problem is mass interdiction of hisec miners, though. As the OP alluded to, I think this will only drive further whining from ganked carebears, and further sentiment from CCP that "something must be done to fix this." I personally think that the OP's problem has to be fixed by CCP, by getting them to re-balance risk vs. reward across the board. My thoughts would be: 1. Make reward strictly proportional to risk, and make risk scale inversely with system sec level. In a 1.0 system, risk can be minimal as long as reward is also minimal. Players should not be able to profit from playing it safe. Conversely, in a 0.0 system, rewards should be huge and so should be risk. 2. This will require that CCP re-introduce risk into null. Null should never be safe space for anyone, let alone the bluefest it has become. Nullsec should be vast and profitable, a wild west frontier, and it should always be contested with war raging constantly and borders shifting daily. Change sov mechanics and logistics to make holding small areas of space easier, and holding large areas of space extremely difficult (if not, impossible). Let opportunity draw enterprising players to lowsec and null, while allowing them to scale their risk incrementally. I think such a re-balancing would go a long way to making EVE a more interesting game. But I'm sure there are hisec carebears and nullsec carebears - both profiting from the status quo - who would vehemently disagree with me.
Lapine Davion Outer Ring Applied Logistics 253	Posted - 2012.04.28 16:35:00 - [586] - Quote I have here a video of what the crowd discussed in the OP wants to turn our beloved EVE Online into. http://youtu.be/cD69PAIqiYo Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Plekto The Sp00n WHY so Seri0Us 10	Posted - 2012.04.28 16:48:00 - [587] - Quote Hatch Nasty, There is a problem with your logic, though. 0.0 is controlled by essentially a bunch of mafia families of different sizes and you simply have to be LET IN as an individual. You cannot actually go there and make isk. Is this fair? I'm not going to judge here. It's just the way it's become. New players have virtually no opportunity to do anything BUT stay in high sec, which means mining and industry is practically forced upon them. It's become so bad that new player groups have decided to do things like Red vs Blue to create some sense of artificial player-driven combat in high sec. The isk has to be moved to where it's the most risky and where neither side profits from staying where/as they are and maintaining the status quo. Because as it is, the game would honestly play better as two separate servers. q: what's the most dangerous and least-traveled area in eve? You know where that is. Low Sec.
Takseen University of Caille Gallente Federation 124	Posted - 2012.04.28 17:20:00 - [588] - Quote Hatch Nasty wrote: 2. This will require that CCP re-introduce risk into null. Null should never be safe space for anyone, let alone the bluefest it has become. Nullsec should be vast and profitable, a wild west frontier, and it should always be contested with war raging constantly and borders shifting daily. Change sov mechanics and logistics to make holding small areas of space easier, and holding large areas of space extremely difficult (if not, impossible). Let opportunity draw enterprising players to lowsec and null, while allowing them to scale their risk incrementally. You're mixing two different ideas here. Nullsec can't be a wildwest frontier AND a constantly shifting mass of wars between power blocs. It was probably closer to a wildwest frontier in the beginning, but now that the big powers are firmly entrenched, only the wars and politics are relevant. Wormhole space is (or was) a better example of a new frontier.

CCP Phantom C C P C C P Alliance 1248	Posted - 2012.04.28 18:00:00 - [589] - Quote This thread has turned into ranting and is not constructive. Thread locked. Please use the Features & Ideas section if you have suggestions how to improve EVE Online, also I would like to point you to the CSM and the devblog discussions. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator


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