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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
GateScout
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:25:00 -
[211]
Edited by: GateScout on 24/03/2009 21:26:17
Shorten the falcon range? Fine....but how about making it a bit faster and more agile?
None of these ships can tank or do any damage...and they are slow and bulky. Who is going to bring them "up close and personal?" A short range brawler falcon? Damage dealing scorpion? Rook with a micro drone bay? You're kidding right?
If the goal is to get people to avoid flying Caldari ECM ships, you've just found a perfect solution.
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KingDiomedesAlt
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:27:00 -
[212]
wow nice idea totally killing off falcons the only decent caldari ship, so now pirates cant use falcons in low sec, and who the fk would bring a falcon in close range?? peoples only beef was that they didnt know how to counter a falcon and so now your talking about making fleets brain dead as they dont have to worry about being jammed as their drones would be able to pop a falcon in about 5 secs, i know what lets shield tank a falcon and fit missile launchers on it, oh hang on then its not a jamming ship its a weak as pee pile of poo nice work
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Vaedian GER
Excidium.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:28:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Vaedian GER on 24/03/2009 21:28:38
 Quote:
Falcon:
- ECM Optimal Range Bonus removed
I f**king love you Chronotis!
<3
P.S.: I'm a -10.0 Low-Sec Pirate.
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Vera Faulk
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:32:00 -
[214]
Have any of you ever actually flown any of these ships in real pvp?
The falcon, which is a great ship for small gang (50 or less per side) is only safe at the range it is currently able to fight at. As an extremely fragile ship, that range gives it a buffer so that it might get out if it misses a jam - recons are supposed to be slippery. If you get much closer than 120km, you are an eyeblink from being popped - a sniping hac will 3-shot a falcon before it can escape if it isn't aligned, and a sniping BS will do so even quicker.
The scorpion, which is a good ship in larger fleets, again is only somewhat safe by virtue of it's range. Scorpions are quite fragile as far as fleet BS are concerned, missiles are terrible in laggy environments, and the damage increase would do next to nothing to make it a viable ship. Weapons on a scorp are defense against tacklers, its real role is in shutting down enemy BS.
Have any of you devs considered data-mining the various corp killboards to see what is killing what? How about having in-depth consultations with groups of pvp players to see what their opinions are on the various ships.
As a final note, have you ever thought about slow, gradual changes to ships/roles and see how that works? It seems that every time you guys make a change, you dramatically change the roles/abilities of a ship, which radically shifts the battlefield, quite frequently with disastrous results for those who have invested months of training and play time to the ships changed? Nearly everytime you nerf or change a ship, you make it nearly unusable. Instead, you could make some minor adjustments, and see how it plays out, with further refinements if needed, and the occasional rollback if you find that you've missed the mark.
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WildcardTrek
Caldari
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:35:00 -
[215]
Ok so the only ewar ship that is remotely useful your going to smack over the head with the nerfbat, with the improvement of the humongus gates, nerf to missiles, initial nerf to ECM, nerf to Caldari in general on every whim, I am glad now that I can fly every Caldari ship that it totally useless, glad I trained the other races so I am not totally useless after years in eve and milions of wasted Caldari SP.
Why not just take Caldari out of the game all together, I mean they are pretty much useless now as it is. Make it a story line thing like the Sleepers ate them or something.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:36:00 -
[216]
Ok...this might be a bit much.
The way I see it, the only changes that should be made are:
Reduce Falcon strength, keep range. (Sniper)
Reduce Rook range, keep strength (brawler)
Leave the scorp alone, no one has been complaining about it.
Same with BB and Griffon.
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AnmmnA
Princeps Corp
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:36:00 -
[217]
Originally by: General Coochie
Look at the bright side you will have even more powerful jammers should this happen. So you need less jammers for same jamming efficiency allowing you to fit a tank just like all the other recons have to do.
People who neved flown a Falcon, shouldn't talk about.
Let's see. This patch will not increse ECM strength. Fom on e side, increses ship bonus, but from other side, remove bonus from SDA fitted in low-slots. So, at last, ECM strength will remain as ever. Not stronger.
Other recons, can do their job, whit just few modules. Cause his modules works fine in all races. ECM just works whit right race. So if you want do something acceptable, you must waste 4 med-slots. Minimum, one for each race. If you want some really garantee of success, must spend 6 med-slots + 2 low-slots.
Why others recons don't have to waste all those slots ?
And please ... don't talk about multspectrals. Falcons eventually must jam ships harder than hull-frigates, you know ?
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cok cola
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:36:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
I think you forgot to boost the pilgrim (it doesn't have stronger ewar bonuses than the curse).
signed
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Thoregras
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:37:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Vera Faulk
Have any of you ever actually flown any of these ships in real pvp?
The falcon, which is a great ship for small gang (50 or less per side) is only safe at the range it is currently able to fight at. As an extremely fragile ship, that range gives it a buffer so that it might get out if it misses a jam - recons are supposed to be slippery. If you get much closer than 120km, you are an eyeblink from being popped - a sniping hac will 3-shot a falcon before it can escape if it isn't aligned, and a sniping BS will do so even quicker.
The scorpion, which is a good ship in larger fleets, again is only somewhat safe by virtue of it's range. Scorpions are quite fragile as far as fleet BS are concerned, missiles are terrible in laggy environments, and the damage increase would do next to nothing to make it a viable ship. Weapons on a scorp are defense against tacklers, its real role is in shutting down enemy BS.
Have any of you devs considered data-mining the various corp killboards to see what is killing what? How about having in-depth consultations with groups of pvp players to see what their opinions are on the various ships.
As a final note, have you ever thought about slow, gradual changes to ships/roles and see how that works? It seems that every time you guys make a change, you dramatically change the roles/abilities of a ship, which radically shifts the battlefield, quite frequently with disastrous results for those who have invested months of training and play time to the ships changed? Nearly everytime you nerf or change a ship, you make it nearly unusable. Instead, you could make some minor adjustments, and see how it plays out, with further refinements if needed, and the occasional rollback if you find that you've missed the mark.
Its called a time sink so we keep on paying to train for more stuff its how CCP keep eve a viable business.
Also - Arii Smith is a CORP THIEF, Please do not buy that character, as we will leave it KOS after the transfer. |
RazorCRO
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:37:00 -
[220]
You got it wrong way...
Rook = close range
Falcon = long range
rest is really fine.
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Jack Gates
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:41:00 -
[221]
this is honestly pretty dumb.
just fix the sensor strength so that falcons can't permajam battleships and get off a jam every other cycle on dreadnoughts and it's fine. right now, that's really the only problem with ecm. don't make "ecm brawlers," good god
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Commissar Kate
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:45:00 -
[222]
Falcon is fine, I don't see any reason to change it.
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Jack Gates
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:45:00 -
[223]
hey ccp you remember when one of your guys said he thought we might start fitting both ABs and MWDs on our ships after the speed nerf?
yeah.
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Jack Gates
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:47:00 -
[224]
you guys are dumb.
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Lord CH0w
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:47:00 -
[225]
umm dear devs....
1. i love the scorp change :)
2. why would u give a long range ship (sniper as u call it) a drone bay? i mean please say what scenario was proposed to force this idea ? anti-inty??? i mean when u want to "snipe" with ur ecm isnt it obvious that ALL your med slots gonna be filled with ECM and optional MWD/sensor booster?? how is the rook supposed to fend itself? becoming more useless is not the way i think...and if u want to introduce an idea when u need to field X number of rooks more so evey1 can fit aditional warp disruptor then i dont think its a road u want to go couse in some time u will see nerf rook/falcon threads again
3. short range seems ok - but imo swap the drone bays between falcon and rook and give rook more ecm range - really and finally the bonus count - u removed falcon bonus and gave???yea its missing ... please think about what u want to give
cheers and have fun brainstorming
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Morikai Acler
Caldari
Demon Theory
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:48:00 -
[226]
Who all was around back before Recons came into the game? *raises hand*
Who here was around before the Original nerf to ECM, which caused the changes to the Scorp and Blackbird for ECM bonus's? *raises hand*
Who else was here when they nerfed ECM a second time, again lowering jamming strength to compensate for the Falcon/Rook? *raises hand*
Who here remembers when the Scorp had turret and Shield tank bonus, yet was still also a mainline ECM boat? *raises hand*
Here's what I see, any ship that has 6 or more mid slots is going to be viable as an ECM boat. Most caldari ships have 6 or more short of certain command ships. Now any ship that gets a scan strength bonus is going to do better, which would be the recons, BB, Scorp, Widow.
It looks like they're starting to undo some of the nerfing that was done to ECM, but in order to do so, they need to balance the relevant ships.
I do agree with many that the Rook is the combat recon ship and needs to be the up close brawler, and falcon needs to be the long range jammer.
I can also see from many peoples posts in this thread that all too many people are stuck in the long range sniping rut. What happens to a long range sniping fleet when you use cloaked ships and bm's to drop a close range gank fleet, with hictors and dictors on em?
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Jack Gates
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:49:00 -
[227]
"ecm brawlers"
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Lt Angus
Caldari
End Game.
Dead End.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:49:00 -
[228]
while you are at it make multispecs same range as racials else they will drop down to unusable ranges not that they are used much anyway.
please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Buffalo Soldiers
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:50:00 -
[229]
No other E-WAR has the capability to completely incapacitate the target's offense. That's where ECM is imbalanced. It's not about range or strength, it's about being completely unable to do anything to counter being jammed, except warping off.
A pilot affected by TD can maneuver to reduce transversal, or close on his adversary to within the reduced optimal range of his guns.
A pilot affected by SD can get a lock, he's just slower, or needs to move closer.
A pilot affected by TP can maneuver to increase transversal, or could have fit Halo implants.
In all these cases, the pilot can respond by also applying E-WAR to his adversary.
ECM is the only E-WAR where the pilot simply has to wait out the cycle, and hope it doesn't affect him on the next (often a vain hope). Fitting an ECCM does nothing for him once a jam is achieved. And unless you're in a BS, fitting an ECCM won't raise your sensor strength enough to avoid being jammed most of the fight.
The way to balance ECM seems plain enough to me: boost ECCM. Instead of granting a percentage boost to sensor strength, make it boost a fixed amount, say 10 points for the base T1 mod and increasing to 20 points for the T2. This will help small ships avoid being perma-jammed due to low intrinsic sensor strength. Add rigs to the game that boost sensor strength, or the effectiveness of ECCM. If you activate an ECCM module while jammed, it should have a chance to break the jam. Reduce ECM's cycle time to 10 seconds, like all other E-WAR. And lastly, paint the Falcon hot pink with lime green camo stripes.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Dee Carson
Caldari
Seppuku Warriors
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:52:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Jack Gates
just fix the sensor strength so that falcons can't permajam battleships and get off a jam every other cycle on dreadnoughts and it's fine. right now, that's really the only problem with ecm. don't make "ecm brawlers," good god
There's not a single battleship that can be permajammed. Again, max jam strength for racial module is about 14. Lowest sensor strength battleship is 17. 8 of the 12 hulls have sensor strength greater than 21.
DC
http://deecarson.blogspot.com/ |
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Zolian
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:53:00 -
[231]
If you give the scorp is 10% shield hp / level bonus back, all is forgiven!
I'm also loving the idea of armor resist bonus on some ECM boats, consider it.
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:54:00 -
[232]
Give the "brawler" ECM ships an extra lowslot so that they can fit a decent tank.
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Centra Spike
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:54:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 24/03/2009 20:52:45
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 24/03/2009 20:51:07
Originally by: Centra Spike
"Close range brawler."
How am I supposed to offer constructive criticism when you are starting with off with such an exceptionally terrible idea?
Wait, no let me imagine for a second decloaking next to someone and attempting to jam them. My agility and base velocity bonus will keep me alive!
Welcome to the wonderful world of the Arazu. Feel free to fit a plate in lows, like Arazu needs to do. Or sacrifice EW power for shield tank. Also, like Arazu needs to do.
Because all ships should be exactly the same.
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Oghma Grianainech
Minmatar
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:55:00 -
[234]
Another stupid useless fail idea by CCP Devs.
A falcon is already paperweight and honestly any snipe fit BS (**** I even know a damn hurricane fit that hits that far) could hit a falcon so instead why don't people get more organized in their fleet setups. Also don't forget a falcon has to get to range after jumping into a gatecamp. Seriously these are the same people that were whinning about nano setups cause they couldn't use half a brain to bring along some minnie recons in their gangs and stuck like deadmeat to their 1vs1 Battleship fits from stoneage.
My 2 cents go with KingDiomedesAlt, Vera Faulk, along with many others in this thread that seem to have actually flown these ships. BB, Falcon, etc.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:55:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
ECM is the only E-WAR where the pilot simply has to wait out the cycle, and hope it doesn't affect him on the next
ECM is the only E-WAR that is chanced based.
Make the falcon more like the other E-WAR ships....and make ECM hit 100% of the time. That means faster, more agile, and the ability to fit at least some sort of damage/tank.
Better? Didn't think so.
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Letifer Deus
181st Legion
W A S T E L A N D
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:57:00 -
[236]
scorp should have 10% shield HP bonus instead of a silly RoF bonus. If it is going to be closer it needs survivability way more than another 100 dps.
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"Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
drapo
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:59:00 -
[237]
I welcome the changes, long overdue. If there is anything that limits the "fun factor" in Eve, it's solo or small gangs against the overpowered falcon. The nerf doesn't go far enough, but you take what you can get I suppose.
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GTC seller72
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:01:00 -
[238]
Why give the rook the drone bay when its going to be a ranged ship and the falcon no drone bat when its supposed to be close range....
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
Buffalo Soldiers
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:02:00 -
[239]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
ECM is the only E-WAR where the pilot simply has to wait out the cycle, and hope it doesn't affect him on the next
What's your point?
Can you read? I made my point. Go read it again.
Quote:
Make the falcon more like the other E-WAR ships....and make ECM hit 100% of the time and each module work equally well on each race.
That's fine, so long as ECCM is changed to be a viable counter to ECM. It actually makes a hell of a lot more sense for ECM not to be chance-based.
Betcha didn't see agreement coming, didja?
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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KingDiomedes
Caldari
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:04:00 -
[240]
why dont u just kill off caldari for good then you can give me all the wasted sp ive spent a year piling into caldari since they are now totally useless
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