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ECM Ships - Looking at better defined roles

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Xiobe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:21:00 - [31] CCP will only be happy when PvP is bland, boring and completely consensual, and the only variety left is in PvE content. Originally by: CCP Chronotis As always, everything is subject to change! CCP has never, ever changed its mind about alterations to the mechanics such as these, no matter how short-sighted or stupid such alterations may be. So please don't ****ing patronise us with statements like this. -- lose. their. they're. there. couldn't care less. lego. colour. flavour.
Salaman Rushid GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:21:00 - [32] Tom Smykowski: It was a "Jump to Conclusions" mat. You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor... and would have different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO. Michael Bolton: That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life, Tom. Samir: Yes, this is horrible, this idea. Don't try to make ECM ships "brawlers". That is as good an idea as a jump to conclusions mat. The ships are not going to be able to tank and do their role, nor are they going to be able to do DPS and their role. Their role is ECM. How do you do ECM? By staying the hell out of range/tracking/etc of the ships whose role is to blow you the hell up.
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:21:00 - [33] Electronic Warfare needs to be balanced and its hard to argue that the falcon isn't overpowered right now. But completely gutting the falcon and even the scorpion does nothing to bring balance to the various forms of E-WAR. It just makes ECM as generally weak as RSD and TD's. This change would be easier to handle if it was accompanied by some minor buffs to the other forms of E-WAR. Also, why on earth are you making the COMBAT recon ship, the one specifically designed for better combat power, the long range ship and the FORCE recon, the one that can fit a cov ops cloak, the brawler? Its just common sense that the rook should be the brawler.
Panta Rei Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:22:00 - [34] Quote: Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconaissance vessels very effectively, Yes, lets force the falcons into closer range than their more sturdy (still fragile) counterparts.
antony hartless	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:22:00 - [35] Edited by: antony hartless on 24/03/2009 18:22:55 I hope will be the last nerf, devs must do something new instead of nerf requested by noobs. Seriously, many old players lost tons of isk and time to get skills and implants and they got nerf because ofr ccp. I personaly have trained for at least 2 races for each charater. At least give more cap and tank for falcon, the other recons have good tank relativly to falson. Oh, and add some firepower. Shame to developers for doing this, they admit that the previous nerf of falcon was not good enough. BTW, when you ccp will do something good enough to last 2-3 years?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:24:00 - [36] What about the Rattlesnake and the Widow(Funny how I once again should mention a black-ops. Maybe there's a hint somewhere)? Is that the same as for Scorpion?
Panta Rei Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:24:00 - [37] Wait, I get it. This was some sort of well-executed troll, right? Well played, CCP, well played. You got me.
Aquemini Amarr Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:25:00 - [38] As one of the few without a falcon alt, I approve of this change and/or product and/or service.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:25:00 - [39] Edited by: Larkonis Trassler on 24/03/2009 18:26:14 Originally by: CCP Chronotis ECM Range Generally the ECM optimal range is a little too long with massive optimal ranges possible which would place the ECM specialised ships so far out of the fight to be almost completely safe but suffer no effective hit quality decrease. To bring them closer to the fight we are looking at swapping the base optimal and falloff ranges so at the longer ranges jammers would be operating more in falloff and hence have a lower chance of 'hitting' with their jammers at the extreme ranges. Generally agreed Quote: Signal Distortion Amplifiers The SDAs are something of a conundrum. They are really only worth fitting on the ECM specialised ships and are the only EWAR enhancing module we have besides the rigs. Currently they increase your ECM strength and we were looking at swapping this to an ECM range bonus and altering either the base strength of the jammers or the ECM strength bonus of the ships so they become less required in every setup and the low slots could be used for tanking for example. If you don't plate a Falcon these days you're dead anyhow, most falcon pilots will fit a plate, the ones that die (mostly) don't. Add some form of lowslot mod for TDs, Damps and Painters while you're at it or just get rid of SDAs. The standard Falcon rig/lowslot combo will just change from plate 2xSDA and two range rigs to plate, 2x SDA and two strength rigs. Quote: Ship Changes We have been looking at all the ECM ships (Griffin, Kitsune, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook and Scorpion). We wanted to ensure each ship had a more focused role which was not just bigger, longer range and better than the others so only one wins outright. The two main themes we were looking at was short range brawler and long range sniper. The brawler would focus on ECM strength at shorter range and the sniper would be longer range but weaker with niches in these areas for each of the ships. Falcon & Rook The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges. Wait wat... I disagree here... people will still not fly the Rook and in every other Recon ship class the Combat varient is more effective in every sense (range/dps/highs). Also are these numbers applying to multispecs (which noone uses anyway) or racials? I would rather see the Falcon get a slight nerf to strength (back down to 15%) and have the Rook's remain as is. By all means force Falcons in closer but don't castrate the Rook in this manner. Quote: The Scorpion I actually agree here, well done.
Bazman Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:26:00 - [40] CHANGE THE ECM MECHANIC. 20 Seconds of doing nothing is the problem. -----
Giganticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:27:00 - [41] Instead of giving the falcon an agility bonus maybe give it some sort of toughness or sig radius bonus to deal with the closer ranges. It barely has a tank and doesn't have the room for one when using it's ECM. I like the Rook and Falcon changes otherwise though. Scorpions should be left as-is. It's perfectly fine in it's role, a weakly-tanked EW platform for use in Fleets that operates at general sniping range, and it's too slow to be used in small gangs (where the recons/BB should be used instead). FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:29:00 - [42] These are my ships, and I kind of like the new options. Falcon - Use it to set up close range (20km) warp-ins, then uncloak and lock-down at short range when your gang arrives. Awesome, and better than the hilariously broken current falcon that perma-jams the interceptors chasing after it trying to get in tackling range. Rook - Nice partner with the Cerberus and Eagle for Caldari-style range tanking. Makes a lot of sense actually. Scorpion - Please give it torpedo bonuses. The scorpion would be the best brawler, already has 8 mid slots for both tanking and ecm. Easy to run 4 jammers + 2 hardeners, and fit 4 siege launchers.
El Mauru Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:31:00 - [43] I like the changes- especially the rook has become a hell of a lot more attractive with the added drone-bay. I can see what you are trying to achieve with the falcon (quick to get-in/jam/get-out), but imho it would be served better with a sig radius reduction. all in all a general thumbs-up -
Sertan Deras Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:32:00 - [44] The change to the Scorpion really is the biggest "what the hell are you thinking" here. Let me think of the last time I used a BS up close. ... Yah, I've got nothing. Nearly every BS fight I've been in, in the last year, has been at long range. Making the Scorpion close range may be great for low sec ganking and empire wars, but for the really big battles, it would be useless and unused. If you want to fiddle with jam strength and the Rook and Falcon, that's fine, Leave the Scorpion alone. It's the only viable, and insurable, fleet EWar platform currently.
Une Bastian	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:37:00 - [45] Falcon pilot's tears.... they are so sweet.
Frabba GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:38:00 - [46] I agree completely with the Falcon nerf. The proposed changes to scorpions will make them mighty worthless in fleets. My experience is fleets are typically 160km off from each other, with ECM typically operating @220km or more. Bring the scorpion inline to engage at the same range as other BS, don't make the scorpion have to come any closer then that. Turning the scorpion into a "short range brawler" will see the ship stop being used in fleet combat.
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:38:00 - [47] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Falcon & Rook Quote: The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges. Wait wat... I disagree here... people will still not fly the Rook and in every other Recon ship class the Combat varient is more effective in every sense (range/dps/highs). Also are these numbers applying to multispecs (which noone uses anyway) or racials? I would rather see the Falcon get a slight nerf to strength (back down to 15%) and have the Rook's remain as is. By all means force Falcons in closer but don't castrate the Rook in this manner. The combat recons are solo hunters, not force multipliers. Not great dps nor great electronic warfare capabilities, but good for one on one encounters. If the rook had a small strength bonus, a good range bonus, decent missile bonuses and a nice base speed it would be great. The rook is actually great for solo roaming, throw on a bunch of multispecs and go looking for solo ratters in ravens and domis (4 multispecs are mathematically superior in solo encounters than 4 mixed racials).
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:40:00 - [48] So the "brawler" gets 2 unbonused launcher slots as DPS but the "ranged" ship gets a drone bay? Oooookay....
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Frabba I agree completely with the Falcon nerf. The proposed changes to scorpions will make them mighty worthless in fleets. My experience is fleets are typically 160km off from each other, with ECM typically operating @220km or more. Bring the scorpion inline to engage at the same range as other BS, don't make the scorpion have to come any closer then that. Turning the scorpion into a "short range brawler" will see the ship stop being used in fleet combat. That's fine though, because the Caldari already have a great hybrid platform for fleet work. Bringing electronic warfare in at closer ranges lends itself to a more complex chess match between your opposing sniper blobs.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:40:00 - [50] Originally by: Sertan Deras The change to the Scorpion really is the biggest "what the hell are you thinking" here. Let me think of the last time I used a BS up close. ... Yah, I've got nothing. Nearly every BS fight I've been in, in the last year, has been at long range. Making the Scorpion close range may be great for low sec ganking and empire wars, but for the really big battles, it would be useless and unused. If you want to fiddle with jam strength and the Rook and Falcon, that's fine, Leave the Scorpion alone. It's the only viable, and insurable, fleet EWar platform currently. Let me think of the last time I used a BS at long range... If you nerf the range and increase the strength it's still a viable anti support platform with Cruises.
Proud American GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:41:00 - [51] Yeah let me go into close range in a paper thin cruiser that is always the primary target. That sounds like a really good idea. CCP, can I get some of what you are smoking?
Seran Kela	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Malcanis So the "brawler" gets 2 unbonused launcher slots as DPS but the "ranged" ship gets a drone bay? Oooookay.... Brawler only refers to range. It's main role will still be ecm lock-down, not dps. The combat ship gets drones to boost it's dps, strengthening its role as a solo hunter.
Tamyris	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:43:00 - [53] Quote: The Scorpion We are looking at putting the scorpion into the short range brawler role. To that end we are looking at removing its ECM Optimal range bonus, increasing the ECM strength bonus a little and adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal. Summary Scorpion Changes - removed the ECM optimal range bonus - increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level - added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level. What? How does adding a RoF bonus to a Caldari ship that armor-buffer-tanks and has 4 spots for launchers help make it a close-range brawler? Would you mind explaining some of the reasoning behind this? Here's what those bonuses will do to the scorpion: - removing optimal bonus: The average scorpion pilot will need to get in closer, exposing him to more danger. - increasing ECM strength: The average pilot will get off a few more jams per battle (5% more per level of Caldari BS to be exact) - 5% RoF: nothing. When is the last time you saw the scorpions as a reliable source of DPS? You bring them in the jam anything and everything that's red, not to kill it. Yes, sure, there are 4 missile launcher slots, but they won't hit anything past 100km while the scorp sits (ideally) at 200+. As it stands, a few scorpions 200-220km off aren't really an issue - have a few dictors/covops/etc get a warp-in and send some support that way, problem solved. The main defensive layer for the Scorpion is the distance it has between itself and any enemies on grid. By removing that and not adding any other sort of defensive layer, you are essentially making a paper-thin BS that relies on chance (jams) to survive.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:44:00 - [54] Edited by: Myra2007 on 24/03/2009 18:44:30 I think i like it but resevere final judgement for sisi tests. ECM is (if at all...) mostly a problem of smaller gangs. Ensuring that long range capable ecm platforms cannot use a cov ops cloak is imo the key and you've got that one covered. I thank you very much for that. Main question with ecm in smaller fights is imo the positioning for 150km+ jamming. You either have appropriate jam spots or have to make them in preparation of/along the fight. With a falcon and its covert ops cloak this can often be done without a real chance for the enemy to spot the movement or the ships. Local is helpful but unlike with your most intimate enemies you don't know the falcon alts of some random joe. This often ends in one sided gank fests where one side was tricked into believing it could be a nice fight. And in the long term everyone who is into winning brings enough falcons from the get go. Now i realize there are more counters to falcons than other falcons but many of them don't work in small gangs and/or low sec work. Also they can be quite specific and of limited general use. Now i am not a player with high moral stand so this char basically exploits things like that for a living. But i sure can imagine a world that is more fun in terms of good fights. Rooks are easily spotted on the directional scanner. Thus if you want to rely on them enemy intel will probably notice it and can choose to deny a fight if possible. There will still be plenty of room for a "nice surprise" so i don't think it takes too much away from the game. Consider for example a situation especially in empire (where i.e. a gate can't be bubbled) where your scout next door spots an incoming gang. Said gang waits at the gate for us to jump in and engage. If we brought rooks it would be a major problem to bring them to bear because they would need to warp to the jamspots and become vulnerable to tackle by enemy support. Nowadays a falcon is for the most part easily able to get into a good position due to the cloak. I see this as a good thing as you can still use the devastating power of long range ecm - but your planning and preparation needs to be superior. Not on to my criticism: as a falcon pilot i'd love for the ship to stay viable. Depending on just how much it gets nerfed please consider that other stats need to be adjusted too(and by that i mean boosted): drone bay/bandwith, launcher slots, capacitor capacity, powergrid etc. I know you are aware of it just saying. Also such a falcon would probably only be able to field like 2-3 jammers due to need for lses and stuff so the strength of those should be substantial. Consider +1 low for the falcon and +1low/-1med for the scorp so these ships can be somewhat armor tanked. Rooks range should imo not be nerfed in any way. For low sec work at least 170- 180km jam optimal with racials is a must for effective use and i'd assume (pure speculation though) its even more with fleet work. They already have enough drawbacks imo. Also please don't nerf kitsune its fun. Another thing: your ranges are those with multispecs or with racials? With or without skills? What would they look like with range rigs? -- Originally by: Jasper Dark I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
Gluecksbaerchi Quantar Swords	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:45:00 - [55] logging into eve-online.com to say awesome proposal would read again. Give the falcon the agility changes it will need
Dierdra Vaal Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:45:00 - [56] Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 24/03/2009 18:45:41 a falcon will never be a good close range ship if it stays as paper thin as it is now. someone can so much as sneeze at a falcon at make the thing explode. Unless you make it a proper speed ship (which seems doubtful) the added agility is not gonna be worth a damn. Director of Training :: EVE University
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Proud American Yeah let me go into close range in a paper thin cruiser that is always the primary target. That sounds like a really good idea. CCP, can I get some of what you are smoking? You're forgetting that force recons have a cloak and are supposed to use them. Covops should be the scouts, not falcons. I'm flying a falcon and I set up a warp-in for my small gang. They arrive and engage. The enemy sees them and calls a primary while I'm still cloaked. I then uncloak to begin the surprise ecm lock down.
VCBee2777 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:48:00 - [58] I will enjoy killing falcons in one shot in my pulse apocalypse after this change Great Job CCP I hate falcons. Hit em with the nerf bat
Rumpelstilski Caldari Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:48:00 - [59] VERY nice Please do something with the kitsune too. A speed bonus and a bit of cap would be hilarious for example (small zooming jamming thingy for inty gangs) The scorp doesn't need to lose the range bonus completely. It would be perfect if it would still be viable as a glass cannon ecm sniper platform for sniper fleets if he sacrifices lows for sdas Also, add some cheap-ass sensor strength rigs that give a fixed increase so they can be used on tacklers Source: http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=24063
Cindare GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 18:49:00 - [60] I hope CCP intends to take a real look at community feedback on this, though frankly I have my doubts. If it's truly the goal of CCP to fix ECM in fleet fights, then they'd only have to do one simple thing. Reduce the range bonus on the Falcon to, say 15% - this would put it within range of enemy snipers, instead of well beyond range of anything but a Rokh or Apocalypse, as it is now. The only ship that deserves the range that the Falcon has now is the Kitsune, a non-cloaking frigate sized ship that currently goes unused because it's terrible. Other than that, ECM ships can and do die often in fleet engagements. I usually dislike the "scrubs whining for nerfs" sentiment, but unfortunately I believe it's mostly appropriate in this case. In particular the Scorpion is fine. Leave it alone, please. _______ Turn a new leaf today! Convo me in-game if you'd like to pray the Rosary or just chat with a good-natured Goon. :)

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ECM Range

Signal Distortion Amplifiers

Ship Changes

Falcon & Rook

The Scorpion

Falcon & Rook