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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 34 post(s) |
Terra Mikael
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.04.17 11:39:00 -
[1261]
Will the improved cloaking device still give its old re-cloaking time when equipped, or has that been totally done away with?
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 Originally by: Korovyov
You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
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Tony Kael
Caldari
Interstellar Federal Forces
Forged Dominion
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Posted - 2009.04.17 11:52:00 -
[1262]
i have to say i'm a little annoyed with this.
i've got cruise V and specialisation V and now i've got to go train torps, which are pretty useless against anything smaller than a stationary, AFK battleship.
thats not my main concern though.
the issue that really strikes me is the role of the stealth bomber has been severely hampered not only by the narrowing of potential targets but also of the ability to slink away after the strike has been launched.
as far as im concerned the SB was meant to be a u-boat in space. which means you hunt, generally as a pack, larger targets of strategic or monetary value.
your pack of 3-5 bombers (because franky getting any more SB skilled pilots from one corp online at once is difficult) will warp into lowsec systems and engage improved cloaking device II, the 99% reduction in re-cloaking time would essentiall do what Cov-ops cloak now does by allowing movement and cloaking almost instantaneously. cov-ops now simply removes the effort of correctly timing your cloak.
the situation now is you've warped into a system and hunted your target. your options are limited to the AFK battleshipper who is grabbing some lunch and you know that any other targets are unviable for a number of reasons:
1) your torps are useless against anything that moves
2) your torps are useless against anything smaller than a BS
3) your cloak has a 15second delay. which means that any alert frig or assault ship will have you targeted before you can successfully see your volley away.
the SB is now looking alot like a suicide ship where it has no role in anything other than 5 on 1 BS engagements. any attempt to stalk a gang is likely to come with a pretty heavy podding penalty.
the SB should not be easy, and i dont mean to try and propose that it is. but its been made needlessly hard. we've got no shields, no structure and now reduced range and fewer potential targets. on top of that our main weapon - our ability to re-cloack after firing - is now severely hampered by the 15second delay which makes us easily targeted as well and if we do so before our torps have hit they simply become floating debris and our opportunity is wasted.
the stealth bomber should be a real hit and run ship, not a de-cloak, fire, wait-wait-wait, pray that the fast tackle frig hasn't got you yet, oh god hurry up with the re-cloak timer, i've been popped ship.
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Interstellar Federal Forces |
666Devious
Sinister Elite
Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.04.17 12:38:00 -
[1263]
With all of these poor changes to the stealth bomber I found one good thing. I never have to worry about being killed by this crap ship.
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EETPhreak
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Posted - 2009.04.17 13:05:00 -
[1264]
Apparently you guys missed one big flaw in going with torps ... you forgot to increase the cargohold of the stealthbombers so they are capable of carrying any decent variety of torpedos. Granted you want to carry what your ships bonus gives, but still you want to have the option to go to a different damage type (and/or different t2 type) of ammo.
Currently you can't carry enough of each type to be remotely effective out in the field without having to dock up just to change ammo type (and docking/undocking is the death of stealth bombers)
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.04.17 13:17:00 -
[1265]
Originally by: 666Devious
With all of these poor changes to the stealth bomber I found one good thing. I never have to worry about being killed by this crap ship.
After saying this, Murphy's law wants that you'll have to RL-afk in a BS, come back half an hour later and find its wreck. Alongside it, there will be other 4 or 6 SB wrecks thanks to your drones though. Also, your pod will still be there, tanking the torps.
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Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.17 13:55:00 -
[1266]
Originally by: Mohenna
Originally by: 666Devious
With all of these poor changes to the stealth bomber I found one good thing. I never have to worry about being killed by this crap ship.
After saying this, Murphy's law wants that you'll have to RL-afk in a BS, come back half an hour later and find its wreck. Alongside it, there will be other 4 or 6 SB wrecks thanks to your drones though. Also, your pod will still be there, tanking the torps.
Thats the funniest thing I've read all day.
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Saggy Glands
Amalgamated Transport And Trade
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Posted - 2009.04.17 15:40:00 -
[1267]
Originally by: Mohenna
Originally by: 666Devious
With all of these poor changes to the stealth bomber I found one good thing. I never have to worry about being killed by this crap ship.
After saying this, Murphy's law wants that you'll have to RL-afk in a BS, come back half an hour later and find its wreck. Alongside it, there will be other 4 or 6 SB wrecks thanks to your drones though. Also, your pod will still be there, tanking the torps.
Lol. Mohenna wins this thread. |
Prometheus Pyrphoros
Gallente
The Nexus Project
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Posted - 2009.04.17 17:33:00 -
[1268]
I really dont like the changes..
With cruise missiles and the right skills you could strike from something like 100k cloak again after firing or orbit outside of drone range ..
the problem with torpedos is their much shorter range so you have to get in drone range ..combined with a cloaking delay that means you are sure to die facing a BS, even in gangs the SB's will be chewed up before the BS reaches structure ..try it out see how many torps you need to kill a well tanked BS then do the Math..
I feel the SB has become a one volley throw away ship now . I liked it a lot before and it took me a lot of time to train the needed skills..
And While I like ideas that inspire teamplay I dont welcome it here ..solo PvP is almost impossible already why make it even harder? I saw the stealth Bomber as sort of the Spec ops soldier , sneaking behind enemy lines alone to kill a variety of targets or do guerilla style hit and run
Not fly in, fire and die
The Firebringer |
Yun Kuai
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Posted - 2009.04.17 17:44:00 -
[1269]
Well sorry to say this, but I actually enjoy this new ship. Granted i don't do much pvp, I did take it into low sec yesterday to test it out. Develop some tactics with this ship and you'll be fine. Found a lone thorax (cruiser-sized ship), watched him ratting while cloaked, saw he was using blasters so i moved out to 35km while cloaked. Painted him with 2 target painter I's and fired my volley of torps. He immediately started closing in on me with an mwd, but i had an AB fitted so i was able to keep enough distance. By the time he got within 27km of me, he was in half armor and warped out. Which by the way was only 4 vollies fired. So don't count this ship out, just learn to be sneaky and pick when you want to fight. If I had been with another bomber, he would have been dead.
On a side note, I thought we were going to have anywhere from 60km to 130km with the torps? My max range is only 35km granted i have low missile skills,but can someone fill me in as to why i have such low range?
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.04.17 17:56:00 -
[1270]
Originally by: Terra Mikael
Will the improved cloaking device still give its old re-cloaking time when equipped, or has that been totally done away with?
it is 15 seconds for all types of cloaking device currently when flying a bomber. There is potential for a cloaking mode being looked into though no promises on that front as its early days.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.04.17 17:58:00 -
[1271]
Originally by: Yun Kuai
On a side note, I thought we were going to have anywhere from 60km to 130km with the torps? My max range is only 35km granted i have low missile skills,but can someone fill me in as to why i have such low range?
Important skills:
Missile Projection - increases missile flight time
Missile Bombardment - increases missile velocity
With these both at level 5, then you will have the 4,500 m/s missile velocity and 13.5 second flight time.
Using T2 javelin torpedoes combined with rigs can increase that to the maximum range above 100km.
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DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:19:00 -
[1272]
It will also make you bomber worth 100 mil and half the killing ability of the orginal ship ( wait till the speed tank you LOL) CCP Chronotis we are listening to you but we still dont agree. Congradulation you really screwed this ship up. Hey do me a favor can we have bomber prices on the test server part of this patch. avergae pirce 60 mil and rising. I guess you never thought about that. I wonnder what kcufing alliance you play for that you wanted to use these in you blob warfare sov bull****. I guess BS are really tough to kill.
By the way can you link me the thread that points out why we needed this nerf. You guys are liars you asked us for input and yet you never even put out the build that hit the patch notes 30 mins after you put half built final build on the test server. Internal testing what a joke hell most of your internal testing was done over easter eating boiled eggs. No ship ever has had its main weapon module completely changed. You have taken alot of enjoyment away from us and frankly iam sitting here stil wondering why and ****ed.
As for the guy who went in and killed thorax wow you like the ship based on a noob NPCER kill. You my friend need to get out more. i want to congradulate you on the kill but to say you like it cause of that kill is really shallow. hell i have kills in my ibis ( damit i should not say that CCP Chronotis may nerf that one next).
CCP Chronotis Iam sorry, Iam just really ****ed for a numbe rof reasons. Your intended role sucks and you even missed the mark on that role. Should have given us a different ship not ruin this one.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:23:00 -
[1273]
Originally by: DNSBLACK
you asked us for input and yet you never even put out the build that hit the patch notes 30 mins after you put half built final build on the test server.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
it does get progressively longer.
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Abram Enroch
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:55:00 -
[1274]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Terra Mikael
Will the improved cloaking device still give its old re-cloaking time when equipped, or has that been totally done away with?
it is 15 seconds for all types of cloaking device currently when flying a bomber. There is potential for a cloaking mode being looked into though no promises on that front as its early days.
Please take back the covops cloak, and give back the recloaking bonus.
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Darkcider
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Posted - 2009.04.17 21:31:00 -
[1275]
Edited by: Darkcider on 17/04/2009 21:31:26
CCP Chronotis,
I think that the level of communication between you and the players has been appauling. Many have came here to ask questions and raise complaints and so far you are only commited to answering those related to the aims you made at the start of this thread.
My Plea is for you to answer the other questions and complaints,
Did I waste my time training for Cruise Missiles?
Why do I have to train Missile Bombardment and Missle Projection to Level 4 or 5 just to be able to be slightly survivable ?
Other than saying "We listened to the excellent feedback", at which point did any of the information they provided or suggestions the provided get introduced to the "New Bomber" ? I recall players saying that 20/20/20 builds to Explosion Velocity / Flight Time / Racial Damage get mentioned were a treat and really made experienced players happy, this wasnt taken into consideration?
All in all, players are seriously unhappy with the outcome the patch has brought to the bomber.
To show that you have some small sense of feeling towards the playerbase and this specific community. I would like you to reply to or atleast answer some of those questions (Maybe not my own but those that really had input deserve answers).
Hope to hear from you in the future, so that I can believe you care.
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Strupstad
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.04.17 21:35:00 -
[1276]
I did like the glass cannon-type that ship was before.
Now its just glass. 
A ship should bring a certain presence to the battle field. The more expensive and specialized, the bigger that presence should be.
Now lets take that to an example. An interceptor (also a T2 frigate) costs around 40 to 50 mill ISK with rigs and T2 fitting, providing a very reliable tackle to any kind of ship. Everyone knows, being targeted and scrambled by a ceptor means certain death if he aint alone.
An SB, before the patch brought a certain *omgwtfcruisemissiles* effect to Eve and was feared be a lot of T1 cruisers. It was easy enough for an inexperienced pilot to loose the ship because of the slightest error (unexpected bubbles beware!).
Now, what does the ship bring to the table?
- Stated is that you can reach 100 km range.
- Your only defense is to warp away
- The only targets which will take half way reliable damage are Battleships
- You cannot recloak, yet you have to wait for your missiles to reach its target before warping out
- your re cloak timer is 15 seconds
- You have 13.5 seconds max flight time at 100 km range
- a Battle ship locks a cov ops in around 10 seconds
The conclusion is, that this is either a mean gamble (did the BS pilot look into Overview 2 or 3 seconds ago?)
Or a game of who hits the button faster, making it a split second run for the red button, with a 3,5 second head start in favor of a turret BS.
Now, since some random guy in charge got killed too often in his pity T1 cruiser by SB's, we have to pay for it with a suicide bomber?
If thats the case, lower the Ship cost to 1/4th of what it used to be and it justifies the higher risk it is supposed to take. Otherwise it is just as effective to kill the same target with a bunch of cruisers, at lower ISK loss involved.
kµr kve=ja,
Strupstad
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.04.17 23:00:00 -
[1277]
The new bombers are god damn awesome.
Although from the looks of things half the whiners seem to have no idea how to effectively utilize these things in a gang. 
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Onizuka GTO
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Posted - 2009.04.17 23:53:00 -
[1278]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
The new bombers are god damn awesome.
Although from the looks of things half the whiners seem to have no idea how to effectively utilize these things in a gang.
Unless you are going to expand on that with some constructive reasons, I'am going to disregard it.
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Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.18 00:48:00 -
[1279]
I think i'll sell my nemesis as it's useless now.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.04.18 00:48:00 -
[1280]
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 18/04/2009 00:48:20
Originally by: Onizuka GTO
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
The new bombers are god damn awesome.
Although from the looks of things half the whiners seem to have no idea how to effectively utilize these things in a gang.
Unless you are going to expand on that with some constructive reasons, I'am going to disregard it.
Try using your own damn brain rather than being told how to use it.
I'll give you a hint, use it with other support ships.
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Estan Drake
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2009.04.18 01:29:00 -
[1281]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 18/04/2009 00:48:20
Originally by: Onizuka GTO
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
The new bombers are god damn awesome.
Although from the looks of things half the whiners seem to have no idea how to effectively utilize these things in a gang.
Unless you are going to expand on that with some constructive reasons, I'am going to disregard it.
Try using your own damn brain rather than being told how to use it.
I'll give you a hint, use it with other support ships.
So the solution to using the stealth bomber is to use it with other expensive ships to do a job that is done better by a raven..... riiight. Maybe I will sell my bombers now while the market price is still up and use the ISK to buy a raven and do just that.
I think all would be forgiven if they made all the bonuses apply to *either* siege *or* cruise launchers. Similar to what is done on other missile ship bonuses. This way bombers can still be used as impotent BS killers while retaining the only role they ever shined at: the sudden sneak attack that decimates those pesky MWDing interceptors and cruisers.
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Estan Drake
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2009.04.18 01:37:00 -
[1282]
also, no matter WHAT happens with the bomber, think we can all agree is badly needs a cargobay increase. 1,950 torps is not enough storage for extended missions in deep space or in wormhole space.
As one person said earlier, docking the bomber for resupplies is very often lethal since you can not cloak within about 30km of most stations.
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OilSlick Rick
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.04.18 01:54:00 -
[1283]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Yun Kuai
On a side note, I thought we were going to have anywhere from 60km to 130km with the torps? My max range is only 35km granted i have low missile skills,but can someone fill me in as to why i have such low range?
Important skills:
Missile Projection - increases missile flight time
Missile Bombardment - increases missile velocity
With these both at level 5, then you will have the 4,500 m/s missile velocity and 13.5 second flight time.
Using T2 javelin torpedoes combined with rigs can increase that to the maximum range above 100km.
Most people don't rig these glass coffin ships since they went down so much pre-torps.
With proj 5, bomb 4, and the best implants for time/distance/explosion velocity I could fit with Cyb 4 on Singularity, I can only get ~59km out of them. I don't see where bomb 5 + rigs can make up the extra 79km you said we can reach in a previous reply (130km).
I was never looking at training T2 cruise launchers in Faction Warfare, so now in order to get 100km+ you are telling me I have to train 18 days for torps 5 + torps spec.
Unless you hadn't updated test yet when I did this prior to the all day and all night downtime of Singularity, then this is poor indeed. It is still a bit optimistic to think people will rig these ships.
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Terra Mikael
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.04.18 02:55:00 -
[1284]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Terra Mikael
Will the improved cloaking device still give its old re-cloaking time when equipped, or has that been totally done away with?
it is 15 seconds for all types of cloaking device currently when flying a bomber. There is potential for a cloaking mode being looked into though no promises on that front as its early days.
Can the timer be reduced by further leveling the cloaking skill? reducing it just by 1-2 seconds would be extremely helpful.
Also, have you considered that, with a full tech II load on this, rigged, as you suggested, the risk vs. reward of flying it in combat has been substantially shifted to risk, with little chance of reward. With the old set up, survivability was well balanced with firepower. However, the firepower has taken total precedence leaving almost no defensive measures. Since in a combat situation, the likely target will have fleet support, even if you have the same, uncloaking will show the world where the pinata is - and at 30-50k, this makes it nearly a suicide boat. Was there discussion about this?
________________________________
Originally by: Korovyov
You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
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Strupstad
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.04.18 02:56:00 -
[1285]
What, you dont put 40 mil in rigs on your condor and afk fly through 0.0? why? Working as intended (tm).
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DeadlyBob
Minmatar
Woopatang
Primary.
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Posted - 2009.04.18 04:23:00 -
[1286]
They're not dead. They're alive and kicking - as long as they're in a blob of bombers.
What's dead is the fun of actually flying one. (edit for clarity: one as in 1)
^ This
I dropped my crusade for my 4 cruise missile launcher bomber. Why? Because I could tell it wouldn't happen. An alpha of 4000 against nearly every target in the game that isn't speed tanking, for shame. So I dropped it.
I supported CHANGE.
I supported Hope.
The one thing I asked to be considered. The only thing required to make the player base happy. The first thing victim to these changes.
Fun Factor.
Has been thoroughly ignored.
I see a frig, I uncloak and fire, the frig takes 78 damage and kills me by the time my second volley hits.
I see a cruiser, I do ~300 damage, the cruiser kills me in two volleys.
I see a battle cruiser, I do ~900 damage, it smiles takes a few seconds, and rips my bomber in half.
I see a battleship, it's drones start attacking me as I hit it for 1500 damage a volley, by the time I've inflicted ~5000 damage I'm dead, or it speed tanks. Or it just warps away.
The bomber is not made to tackle.
The bomber cannot effectively engage any target now. Even Industrials don't pop every time to a single volley and that's all you get with the bomber.
It cannot tank the sentry guns so it cannot camp noobs in low sec.
It cannot kill any ship class solo.
by flying one you stamp a very big sticker on your forehead saying (Primary)
Oh and they cost three times as much as they did two weeks ago.
I used to sit 75km off stations in 0.0 harassing enemies as they undocked with impunity. I don't even want to consider it now. Consider for a moment that that buzzard undocks that you've been waiting on for... thirty minutes and unleash a volley from 60km, say it actually hits the buzzard. For what? Just to watch it dock back up?
I used to fly it in gangs on roams. Now it sits in my hangar collecting dust.
There are glaring problems with this concept.
The biggest is simple. The ship is no longer fun to fly.
Hell I would have settled for a trade in of the cloaked velocity for the covops cloak and not changing a thing with the rest of the ship.
CCP yet again, I thank you for taking the time to look at the Bomber, it was my favorite ship. I did rig mine. Now I think I'll use them for target practice for my geddon since it has such an easy time killing them.
Neither night nor day can give me purchase. Only purged dust on earth can avenge the worthless. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente
War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.04.18 08:24:00 -
[1287]
Originally by: Estan Drake
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Edited by: Irida Mershkov on 18/04/2009 00:48:20
Originally by: Onizuka GTO
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
The new bombers are god damn awesome.
Although from the looks of things half the whiners seem to have no idea how to effectively utilize these things in a gang.
Unless you are going to expand on that with some constructive reasons, I'am going to disregard it.
Try using your own damn brain rather than being told how to use it.
I'll give you a hint, use it with other support ships.
So the solution to using the stealth bomber is to use it with other expensive ships to do a job that is done better by a raven..... riiight. Maybe I will sell my bombers now while the market price is still up and use the ISK to buy a raven and do just that.
I think all would be forgiven if they made all the bonuses apply to *either* siege *or* cruise launchers. Similar to what is done on other missile ship bonuses. This way bombers can still be used as impotent BS killers while retaining the only role they ever shined at: the sudden sneak attack that decimates those pesky MWDing interceptors and cruisers.
You'd do that if you're stupid enough not to realise the different between a Covert Ops frigate, that can move cloaked and on the fly deliver BS level damage, whilst not being as large and bulky as a battleship in the same point.
You don't go around flying a battleship solo, you'll get murdered alive, so you bring support, however a battleship is slow and cumbersome and has no real way to pick its own fights, once its on the field, its there and its stuck for a while before it can disengage.
A bomber on the other hand can scout as well as provide heavy-damage, especially to a recon gang where its usefulness is boosted to an insane degree. It can also pick its fights whilst having superior mobility, at the cost of less survivability. Added with its bomb-launcher, which can be useful in the right circumstances depending on your use. All of this is on-top of its ability to warp whilst cloaked, Allowing you to move a pack of bombers and recons combined without being detected until you jump in or out of a system, or land right at 0km. Which you should never do.
Honestly if you can't spot that there is something seriously wrong with that head of yours.
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Saggy Glands
Amalgamated Transport And Trade
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:00:00 -
[1288]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
The new bombers are god damn awesome.
Although from the looks of things half the whiners seem to have no idea how to effectively utilize these things in a gang.
Let's see all your kills post patch with the new uber bomber, Irda. I'm sure everyone would be interested in seeing what someone who is an expert in stealth bomber gang tactics can accomplish.
I've seen firsthand a good number of post patch SB's insta-die the past couple of days. Yes, ones that had support with them. They are flying coffins, but at least you have an expensive coffin and not a pine box.
I haven't seen these vaunted k-rad recon gangs flying about though. Perhaps that's because the gang is so cool it gets to choose it's targets. That meaning if the opposing gang have a beam zealot, taranis, flycatcher, demios, rapier, vagabond, ishtar or even a lowly punisher with an MWD fitted (basically any support) uncloaking means certain death.
A couple SB pilots though, didn't seem to realize they could now warp while cloaked. That's however perfectly understandable as they were from the NC. So I don't include them in my assessment of the ship's post patch performance. |
smokeydapot
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:01:00 -
[1289]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
You don't go around flying a battleship solo, you'll get murdered alive, so you bring support, however a battleship is slow and cumbersome and has no real way to pick its own fights, once its on the field, its there and its stuck for a while before it can disengage.
So basicly the SB is now useless well what a suprise the only good thing that has come from this patch is that i sold all my SB's for double what i payed for them.
oohh well this means that im guna get a load of SB kills now this ship has been turned from a realy useful ship for SOLO or FLEET combat to a ship that you die in unless you have a large fleet behind you and about 10 other SB's and even with the fleet right there to help you your still not guna survive in the new SB.
I knew from the tone of the chat a few pages back that CCP didnt want to listen to the input from the players no consideration has been given to the large number of posts saying NO to TOPRS and yet it still goes ahead from a customer service point of view thats poor by any standard you have ignored the subscriber and constantly doing that will kill the game as no one will want to pay for a game that they dont have input on.
i said it a few times and will say it again FAIL.
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The Cuckoo
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:05:00 -
[1290]
I hate the fact that to get a decent range - and actually make using a SB useable, all related missile skills now need to be maxed! I can no longer use this ship, and won't be able to do so until all these skills are maxed out, I think this is grossly unfair.
You may as well put all the pre-requisites for this ship up to five, because it's now useless without them.
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