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Selina Candor
Chernobyl Trading Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.15 03:50:00 -
[301]
Thanks for the comments on what transpired guys.
Was going to post a report card yesterday but was too tired after work.
So here is a report card summarising what SCS did, right and wrong.
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What Went Wrong ----------
1) Brokerage system
I have my personal reservations against this system. Among other things, the brokerage system managed to convince many investors to send their isk to Caleb before a satisfactory audit had been completed. Had it been anyone else, the chances of a tag-team scam would have been sky high.
2) ISK transferred to IPO manager once audit had been completed. Not after it had been reviewed.
Once both audit reports had been published, the ISK was quickly wired to Ji. This after Kazzac's report highlighted a red flag. I believe the SCS was too hasty in sending the ISK to Ji once the report had been published. Although most investors had not raised any objections, the fact remained that the ISK had already been transferred; any objections raised now would have been moot.
3) SCS was not proactive in seeking additional Auditor support.
After Shar was unable to complete the IPO audit, the IPO languished in a state of limbo for several days before Kazzac was brought onboard. This in spite of an offer from Kazzac himself to work on the audit. API keys were finally transferred sometime on Sunday and the audit was completed within a few days.
A big thanks goes out to Kazzac for quickly finishing the audit, even thought I believe he was very busy the following week.
As an IPO service provider, SCS should have been more proactive in seeking additional auditors for the IPO and not after much prodding, both internal and external.
Will not be touching on the investment arm issue as that falls under the Auditor's field of work.
What Went Right ----------
1) Launch of the Intern Auditor Program
One of the few bright spots in this launch, the SCS managed to bring Brock on as an 'intern' auditor. This program should be able to help address the problem of there not being enough auditors in MD.
2) Ji's 100% buyback offer
I'm of the opinion that this was one of the reasons we didn't see too many people abandoning the IPO. However it comes down to the fact that ji shouldnt have been offering a buyback as the ISK really should not have already been transferred. Which leads back to point 1 of WWW.
3) That the IPO launched at all.
In spite of all the problems encountered, the IPO didn't die before it was even in operation. I mark this as a plus for Ji and am confident it will carry over into his conduct during the IPO's run.
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And thus ends my report card on the SCS's activities for this launch. Theres plenty of room for improvement. Alot of it.
Apologies for the rambling nature of some of the points. Now I need to get myself some coffee.
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Indy Indy
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Posted - 2009.05.15 04:42:00 -
[302]
Being one of the many investors (albiet a small one) in this venture I felt I had a right to voice my opinions on the matters at hand.
I posted something similair to this quite a few pages back but I feel it's important to say it again.
While this IPO has had many risks and flaws pointed out, I think it is important to point out that Ji has done an excellent job trying to mitigate and eliminate risks. While I personally did not mind my isk being transfered right away I can understand why some others may have been concerned. I would not have invested at all had I not found both Caleb and Ji to be up front and honest to begin with. A large portion of the investors have talked to both Caleb and Ji in the SCC lounge and I think that has added a small layer of trust (deserved or not) and it allowed all of us to guage both of them before making a decision.
All IPO's have some risked involved and the fact that Ji has showed some thick skin and a level of dedication to the launch tells me either that my isk is in good hands or Ji just pulled a great scam (which I seriously doubt is the case).
Anyway that is just my two cents for what it is worth.
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Alex555
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Posted - 2009.05.15 06:11:00 -
[303]
Btw I have a question to everyone Why do y'll think that amount of MD forum posts may say whether a person is going to scam or not? Seriously ain't it a bit naive? Smart talk doesn't generate any cashflow
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Mme Pinkerton
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.15 06:44:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
I offered Ji Sama what little rep(memory) I had to avoid the rather harsh climate in here, and initially I had no idea if Ji was actually a scammer, so I found the broker idea more than just an addition of risk, but rather a way to help both Ji Sama and in case he was not legit help the community of investors.
I feel somewhat dumb for having to ask this, but how does the brokerage system help investors?
without brokerage: IPO announcement -> reservations -> audit -> money transferred by investors with brokerage: IPO announcement -> reservations -> money transferred by investors -> audit -> money transferred by broker
Obviously it is of benefit for the investment manager as he gets the complete funding more or less instantly after the (successfully) completed audit instead of having to wait for the money to trickle in & he saves some accounting work which has been shifted towards the broker - obviously it is of benefit for the broker who gets some days of interest on the transferred money - but how exactly does this system benefit the actual investors (who lose out on interest)?
To me this looks like the investors pay for some extra convenience of the IPO manager.
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Brett Frost
Caldari Frost Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.05.15 07:50:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
I feel somewhat dumb for having to ask this, but how does the brokerage system help investors?
without brokerage: IPO announcement -> reservations -> audit -> money transferred by investors with brokerage: IPO announcement -> reservations -> money transferred by investors -> audit -> money transferred by broker
Obviously it is of benefit for the investment manager as he gets the complete funding more or less instantly after the (successfully) completed audit instead of having to wait for the money to trickle in & he saves some accounting work which has been shifted towards the broker - obviously it is of benefit for the broker who gets some days of interest on the transferred money - but how exactly does this system benefit the actual investors (who lose out on interest)?
To me this looks like the investors pay for some extra convenience of the IPO manager.
In this specific case, because of delays surrounding the audit that were not the fault of Ji Sama, some of us that invested smaller sums chose to use the broker to get the transaction out of the way, accepting increased risk in the process. In most cases, there would be no benefit to using a broker.
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EVEHelpisSeriousBusiness
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Posted - 2009.05.15 08:39:00 -
[306]
To be honest the broker basically inserted himself into a pre-existing deal in order to pad his own reputation. That's cool but why are investors risking their money to build someone else's rep? In a perfect world Caleb should be paying money to be involved in this, rather than taking a fee.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.15 08:45:00 -
[307]
Thank you for that report Selina.
I agree with all your conclusions, but i am confident that the SCS will prevail. Thank you for being a part of this, and i actually think i forgot to thank you in my final statement :( (that sucks)
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The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.15 08:46:00 -
[308]
Originally by: EVEHel****eriousBusiness To be honest the broker basically inserted himself into a pre-existing deal in order to pad his own reputation. That's cool but why are investors risking their money to build someone else's rep? In a perfect world Caleb should be paying money to be involved in this, rather than taking a fee.
haha, the way you put it... touche....
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The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.05.15 09:21:00 -
[309]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2009 09:24:28 11 pages, FFS, give him the isk already (in advance for everything he'll ever ask for) and put this thread to rest.
Black Sun Empire |
Maxwell Terallis
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Posted - 2009.05.15 17:50:00 -
[310]
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2009 09:24:28 11 pages, FFS, give him the isk already (in advance for everything he'll ever ask for) and put this thread to rest.
That's just it.... This IPO has launched. It's done. Ji has the isk, the investors have their shares.
I'm not sure why people continue to criticize and analyze when it's finished. Final thoughts are great, but continuing to debate when the IPO has finished is not producing anything constructive toward this IPO.
If people wish to continue the debates of the right / wrong ways to handle an IPO, a new thread would serve that purpose instead of this one.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.05.15 23:16:00 -
[311]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2009 23:16:15
Originally by: Maxwell Terallis
Originally by: Yougotripped
11 pages, FFS, give him the isk already (in advance for everything he'll ever ask for) and put this thread to rest.
That's just it.... This IPO has launched. It's done. Ji has the isk, the investors have their shares.
Not quite. Given the focus of the IPO and the high return, I trust the auditor will retain possession of those API keys and validate future monthly reports... for fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering... and premature burnout leads to Ponzi schemes.
Black Sun Empire |
EVEHelpisSeriousBusiness
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Posted - 2009.05.16 00:04:00 -
[312]
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2009 23:16:15
Originally by: Maxwell Terallis
Originally by: Yougotripped
11 pages, FFS, give him the isk already (in advance for everything he'll ever ask for) and put this thread to rest.
That's just it.... This IPO has launched. It's done. Ji has the isk, the investors have their shares.
Not quite. Given the focus of the IPO and the high return, I trust the auditor will retain possession of those API keys and validate future monthly reports... for fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering... and premature burnout leads to Ponzi schemes.
Don't you mean: premature burnout leads to a "second round of funding" ?
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Maxwell Terallis
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Posted - 2009.05.16 00:45:00 -
[313]
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2009 23:16:15
Originally by: Maxwell Terallis
Originally by: Yougotripped
11 pages, FFS, give him the isk already (in advance for everything he'll ever ask for) and put this thread to rest.
That's just it.... This IPO has launched. It's done. Ji has the isk, the investors have their shares.
Not quite. Given the focus of the IPO and the high return, I trust the auditor will retain possession of those API keys and validate future monthly reports... for fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering... and premature burnout leads to Ponzi schemes.
Sure, I don't see any issue with that. However, this has nothing to do with the constant deconstruction of the IPO on this thread. That part is done, and no amount of bickering will change what has happened.
I encourage those who believe there were mistakes made in this IPO to address those concerns in a new thread, directed at future IPOs, with references to this one in the hopes of avoiding any issues in the future.
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Ricdic
Caldari Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.05.16 01:34:00 -
[314]
Agreed with Maxwell. What's done is done. Let's just hope we learn from it in the future. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.05.16 02:45:00 -
[315]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Not quite. Given the focus of the IPO and the high return, I trust the auditor will retain possession of those API keys and validate future monthly reports... for fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering... and premature burnout leads to Ponzi schemes.
Every person I've ever audited has their own group in my EMMA installs. (You can imagine the size of that damn database)
If the key remains live I'll keep pulling data and just keep it to myself until its needed for whatever reason. |
Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.05.17 04:10:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Alex555 Edited by: Alex555 on 14/05/2009 20:14:42
Sorry for being dumb, but IÆve covered 10 pages and still got no idea what are u guys planning to do with isks.
Now seriously What is this "Our marketing plan is based on more than 1 year of market research and analysis" or this "Our innovation long term plan is to expand the corporation into many branches; these branches are focused on meta-gaming." What does the phrase - "meta-gaming" - suppose to mean? Really, I didn't get it
Then u say something about R&D. That's more or less clear for me. And then in the end u have got me with this - "Our investment plan is easy to understand. We simply invest in the secondary market and the revenue that get us is an extra profit to the corp".
Why have I read all above written if your plan was about to be the simpliest in eve universe :). One more serious thing now :) What are the guarantees for return of investments? There are a lot of scam on IPO market right now. And what would happen if u experience failure with your investments.
What is the main aim of this IPO? Create a new product? Or in the end of the first month u say that sorry guys I was wrong with my calculation and I am ready to buyback all your shares at 95%. Pretty cool tbh. It makes 1,25 of pure profit for simply doing nothing.
Do not get me too personal, but I was just trying to analyze your IPO. And frankly speaking I didn't get how u would repay investors 100% + dividends. Due to the fact that u r not going to produce/create anything. Buy high/sell low is a great thing, but I guess it is a bit hard to base IPO on that
Thats exactly what I was saying on page 2
This IPO has no clear purpose beyond taking investors money, no coherent business plan, and it was handled rather badly.The security provided by Bad Bobby and the audit may relieve some fraud risk, but ignores the risk of losing money due to bad business decisions.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.17 04:31:00 -
[317]
Whats not clear about the following plan:
A: Market trading B: Basically investment in tools that helps the game C: Production D: Investment
Blueprint Store |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.17 08:28:00 -
[318]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 17/05/2009 08:30:06 Well i dont see the problem Alek and Pixxie point out. But i will try to explain the plan. Please respect that this IPO is launched. You can always start a new thread that discuss BP's and IPO's in general.
I have a shop. This shop sells oranges, apples and bananas! But since these things arent always in season i need more capital, so i dont have to sell apples and bananas when oranges are in season.
I also heard that kiwis and carrots are a nice market, so i also want to get into that market. There are other players that also have shops, they have tools that makes it easier for my shop to sell oranges, so i take a small part of my capital and invest into this shop!
Its also good business to build your own oranges, and make research into how you can build these oranges so you save time and capital building these oranges.
Lastly, there are alot of other shops dealing in fruits and vegetables. Sometimes they offer a return that competes with my own return, and therefor its lucrative to invest in these shops. again a small part of all the capital!
Most if not almost all will go into buying fruits and vegetables at a very low price, and then sell at a very high price, when the market is mature for it.
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The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.05.17 09:13:00 -
[319]
Does part of the above say you will be giving some money to other people to spend? If they scam, will you cover the loss? |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.05.17 10:07:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Ricdics Does part of the above say you will be giving some money to other people to spend? If they scam, will you cover the loss?
Last time I checked, the main difference between an IPO and a bond, is following:
Bond(Debt financing): - Fixed rate - Investors always gets their principle back in full - No ownership in the corporation
IPO(Corporation ownership): - Variable rate - Shared risk - Partial ownership in the corporation
In the IPO plan, it's clearly stated that you invest into a corporation, who also invests and stuff. If it's a corporation, it's by definition a set of people, not just a person. So don't be surprised that he will be giving ISK for others to spend.
I'm not saying that Ji Sama won't actually cover any loss. However let it be clear that it's not something that HAS to be done.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.17 10:46:00 -
[321]
Thank you Lavista... I just have one thing to add..
/startquote TMP Industries will cover any losses associated with internal/external scamming, theft or assets/capital lost to investments that defaults for whatever reason that might be. /endquote
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The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.05.18 21:11:00 -
[322]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Ricdics Does part of the above say you will be giving some money to other people to spend? If they scam, will you cover the loss?
Last time I checked, the main difference between an IPO and a bond, is following:
Bond(Debt financing): - Fixed rate - Investors always gets their principle back in full - No ownership in the corporation
False!
Debt holders get a priority over shareholder for the remaining capital, but very often they take heavy losses.
For example,bond holders ore owed 100$ when a company goes bankrupt,and the company has only 50$ in assets. In that case bondholders lose 50% on their investment and shareholders are wiped out.
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Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.05.18 21:23:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Ji Sama
I have a shop. This shop sells oranges, apples and bananas!
Well Ji, now that you talk in apples and oranges your business plan is crystal clear.
While my criticism of your IPO may be construed as trolling, it carries the merit of being (almost) the sole criticism of your vacuous business plan because your IPO sets a very low bar in terms of communicating to investors what you are planning to do with their money.
But you are not the problem here, Ji Sama, the investors are.
If every investment decision must evaluate potential risk vs. reward, your investors could not perform due diligence simply because your business plan does not provide them with the necessary information.
For the record, letÆs divide the risk of your IPO into two broad categories:
1.Risk of fraud û over all I think you covered that risk very well; it has been discussed in length so I wonÆt elaborate.
2.Market risk û this is the risk that despite youÆre best efforts, and without fraud, investors lose on their investments due to market operations. You have not addressed this risk at all; indeed it looks as if you are not even aware of it.
When an IPO is concentrated around industry and manufacturing, investors can make an educated guess about projected earning, because prices of raw materials and finished goods are known, as well as game mechanics controlling the efficiency and rate of production.
The problem with your IPO is that it is heavily concentrated in trading and investment û in which in games skills have very little bearing, and returns are extremely volatile. Investment in meta-gaming items is even harder to evaluate. Consequently, investors are totally in the dark about what kind of risk they are taking vs. their expected rewards.
You could have alleviated some of the uncertainty by providing some meaningful information about your past performance. Keyword: meaningful. Ad hoc numbers 10-1000% profit margin are meaningless. After one year of market research, you should be able to provide some concrete numbers û because if you donÆt have numbers than you didnÆt do market research.
Instead, you explanation was ôbuying low and selling highö - which is usually the response reserved for noobs asking how to trade on the MD forums.Ironically, your quip about oranges and bananas was more detailed than the information you let up on your trading business.
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Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.05.18 21:27:00 -
[324]
Dear investors, here are just some of the questions you should have asked:
1.If trading in EVE is widely regarded as a PVP activity, why are you volunteering to finance someone elseÆs pvp activity? ShouldnÆt your rate of return be considerably higher than a similar investment in a manufacturing operation? (Assuming that manufacturing is analogues to pve because itÆs less risky). I think the appropriate rate is the rate you would ask when loaning the capital for a vagabond to a pirate.
2. What is the rational behind an IPO in the first place? If a trader has a 10-1000% margin (should I assume a 500% margin on average?) than he should be able to double his capital every so often (again, canÆt say how often because Ji-Sama doesnÆt know his turn over rate). If thatÆs the case than why does he need investorÆs capital when organic growth should be enough?
3.Ji ûSamaÆs reluctance to release meaningful information about his past performance - at least some kind of financial metric that indicate if performance is good or bad û suggests that he is not has not collected this information for himself. Again, nothing wrong with that if you are any Joe Blow; but when you are launching an IPO you need to show higher standards.
4.Why invest in a blackbox without solid proof that it works?
5.Does Ji-Sama provide investors with any thing they canÆt do themselves? With respect to investments in EMMA and other meta-gaming items, the answer is a resounding NO. Investors could have just buy EMMA bonds themselves and save the management fee. Not to mention that investing in Ji Sama is riskier than investing in EMMA.With respect to trading, Ji-Sama can prove that he is doing some kind bookkeeping and numerical analysis by posting images of spreadsheets - if he can.
Ji Sama, I am not coming out with this criticism because I wish you any ill. I do it because you investors showed a complete lack of motivation or ability to asses your IPO from a risk/return point of view.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.18 21:43:00 -
[325]
*reserved*
Quote:
The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
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Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.05.18 23:01:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 18/05/2009 22:30:30
I donÆt think we will reach an agreement to be honest. (Might be because im tired :P) But I will try to answer your concerns in full.
Ji Sama, we can agree to disagree, i have no problem with that.
My questions were directed at the investors and not at you. My beef is with them for not being more critical of your IPO - performing due diligence is the investors prerogative. If you benefited from their cluelessness, all the power for you.
I am glad you hired an accountant, it shows that you are already improving. With regard to my interpretation of your numbers - you really didn't give much to interpret:
Originally by: Ji Sama Business Plan
.a Our marketing plan is based on more than 1 year of market research and analysis. We buy low, sell high. Stockpile on assets that doesnÆt loose value and in addition if possible have a chance to increase in value. (We do multi-region trading, thatÆs a lot of work, and sometimes its dangerous, but giving margins in the 100-1000%+ range) What exactly our niches are and what exactly we trade in cant be disclosed. But in general terms, we trade in ore, minerals, salvage, alloys, ice, gas, ships and modules. Of the total invested capital we plan to use the majority of the capital in this sector. (The majority being more than 50% i.e. 12B+)
You could have given more information or produced a spreadsheet without revealing trade secretes, for example.
But at the end it worked in your favor because you got your capital for much cheaper than the risk of your IPO.
Credit due: the spreadsheet I linked belongs to Corestwo.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2009.05.18 23:56:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Pixie Rollins
You could have given more information or produced a spreadsheet without revealing trade secretes, for example.
But at the end it worked in your favor because you got your capital for much cheaper than the risk of your IPO.
My understanding is that the accountant is producing a summary that you are requesting. Perhaps there is a communication issue here.
Who can complain about receiving cheap capital.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
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Pixie Rollins
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Posted - 2009.05.19 00:09:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Professor Leech Who can complain about receiving cheap capital.
Receiving cheap capital is great. Providing it is not so great.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2009.05.19 00:18:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Pixie Rollins
Originally by: Professor Leech Who can complain about receiving cheap capital.
Receiving cheap capital is great. Providing it is not so great.
That is the issue in md at the moment. Plenty of people with capital to invest but a lack of options.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
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Companion Qube
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Posted - 2009.05.19 23:54:00 -
[330]
Confirming receipt of 1000 TMP shares via Caleb and transfer of 500M.
@Ji: Don't Madoff me bro!
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