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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:36:00 -
[1]
Edited by: FingerThief on 17/05/2009 13:38:52
Let's see if I can post this in a coherent form and not attrack too much flak.
Then:
30k players, well seeded belts, No chance to mine them ever dry.
Now:
300k players, empty belts, shotty reseeding mechanic, better mining equipment, purpose orientated ships, roaming intellingent macro-mining gangs, and best you can hope for is 1 or 2 cycles per roid in HiSec ( and then you have to be quick right after downtime )
Let's see, CCP has given PvP, PvE orientated gamers at least 10 new ship classes, new NPC, new toys, new regions, new and harder combat system ( sleepers ) and, let me exaggerate, 100 new skills for combat, ECM ... whatever.
So, here I am, playing for 6y still having a choice of a whooping 10 modules for mining, not having seen any increase in asteroid belts but only in ways to empty them faster and about 10x more players.
Macro mining gangs still are around and petitioning them doesn't change a thing, not because CCP doesn't remove them, but because CCP removes them slowly and with all miners around these days ... if you removed 50 macro mining accounts 5y ago you did remove 0,1% of the player base ... now ... I do not even want to do the math ... it's just not sufficient.
It is MY opinion that CCP has to change the respawn/reseeding on asteroid belts or make belts bigger ... grow the resources that are available with the the increasing player base ... get better in identifying who macro mines and get rid of them for good. The current mechanic was working a few years back ... not anymore.
Furthermore ... You get more and better ships, better and bigger guns ... but I, as manufacturer, still only have 11 slots per character to build stuff. Another skill to get 10 more slots ? Please ???
Regards,
FT
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Ferdio Ricotez
Gallente
Killer Carebears
United Interstellar Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:46:00 -
[2]
I find the ammount of roids in a given system at a given time changes from day to day. Some days, I can fly around in my home system, and find hardly any asteroids. Other days, around the same time, it's a true high sec miner haven.
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Gallente flying Minmatar |
Thernys
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:47:00 -
[3]
So are you complaining that you can't get enough ore, or that you get too much ore too fast so that 11 manufacturing slots are not enough for you? ;)
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Lag Hon
Minmatar
Lag Hon Security
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:50:00 -
[4]
Even tho I think mining is as much fun as watching grass grow, I do agree with you. Mining system belts it not worth undocking for, let alone gathering a gang to go mine a belt. However they need to adress the macro miner issue first because just adding more available ore will simply feed the macro miners more. Personally I'd like to see the belts move around a bit, the bookmark you had for a belt today will be useless in 2 days time cos the belt has moved. Make some belts a bit hidden, not to the extent of having to probe them out like exploration sites but at least have to locate them on the ship scanner.
Increasing the available manufacturing slots per char by new skill may result in the need for a few more factories to be installed at NPC stations or making the POS factories a bit more efficient and flexible to make using them worthwhile.
 Quote:
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies can not stand.
G'Kar
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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:53:00 -
[5]
Edited by: FingerThief on 17/05/2009 13:54:18
That with the manufacturing slots is just a side-thought I threw in for good measure and because it crossed my mind while writing the original post.
That with the mining belts, seeding mechanic etc has been on my mind fo a while.
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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: FingerThief on 17/05/2009 13:54:07
double post, sorry.
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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 13:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Thernys
So are you complaining that you can't get enough ore, or that you get too much ore too fast so that 11 manufacturing slots are not enough for you? ;)
No !
I am complaining that everything did grow ( the universe, the modules you can use, the skills you can use ) but not the amount of resources available to a 10x bigger player base.
Too much too fast ? Never !
Yes, I am complaining that I only can use 11 Manufacturing slots per character.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:02:00 -
[8]
I think the current situation in highsec is fine, to be honest.
I'll admit most of Caldari highsec is WAY overcrowded but in the other empires it's not the bad and you can still find plenty of remote highsec systems with belts worth mining in. And you can still do level 1 missions to spawn as much Veld (and occasional other ore types) as you feel like mining and not have to worry about canflippers.
I think if CCP does anything it should be to somehow change the game mechanics to make lowsec belt mining viable.
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wowtard
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:02:00 -
[9]
Explore for gravimetric sites or pay someone to do so? Does everything need to be handed to us on a platter?
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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kessiaan
I think the current situation in highsec is fine, to be honest.
I'll admit most of Caldari highsec is WAY overcrowded but in the other empires it's not the bad and you can still find plenty of remote highsec systems with belts worth mining in. And you can still do level 1 missions to spawn as much Veld (and occasional other ore types) as you feel like mining and not have to worry about canflippers.
I think if CCP does anything it should be to somehow change the game mechanics to make lowsec belt mining viable.
If it would be fine, Tritanium would not be 4x base value ( 1.00 ISK ).
CCP intervened when Zydrine price went bonkers ... but Tritanium, the base resource for all manufacturing, they do nothing ... they even lift artificial price limits so that the price can rise even higher.
And you never HAD to take a mission to get a full veldspar roid. Now you HAVE to.
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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: wowtard
Explore for gravimetric sites or pay someone to do so? Does everything need to be handed to us on a platter?
I am scanning 20 systems ( Lo and HiSec ) every single downtime ... anomalies, a ton ... gravimetric ... roflmaopimp ... 1 every 10 days.
I took a wh into NullSec ... there they spawn with three large belts ... what for ?
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Breen Salak
Caldari
FriendlyFiends
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:10:00 -
[12]
Mining in high sec is getting consistently more difficult. I found myself a quiet system a few jumps from Amarr that like you I could happily mine in. Before long it became populated by macro-miners - not the gangs you talk about, rather individuals who had got hold of a piece of software and figured on easy pickings running to and from the station. I did petition on a couple of occasions, but the problem is that it's so hard to prove. We all know the behaviour of course, but some of these guys were in system for weeks on end, only being absent during downtime.
Back to the issue though, I've heard from many of the CSM candidates about the issues around the relative value of veldspar. The market is player driven and while the player base and requirement of kit has gone up, it appears the availability of asteroids in belts hasn't risen to match. When people bemoan the lack of value of low sec ores, the real trick isn't coaxing miners into low or null sec by tweaking the value of low sec minerals, rather making high sec minerals much more abundant - with better re-seeding and fatter rocks. That way the value of tritanium will lower somewhat. Yes the miner's profts take a hit, but at least it's less annoying than constantly retargetting asteroids
I've since relocated and am using a station-less system to mine in (less chance of macro guys), though the fact I'm still stripping asteroids in little over one cycle is beginning to make the whole thing exasperating. I know for a lot of guys that mining isn't there thing, but surely you want to encourage those who do it, to keep doing it.
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Snasty
Caldari
The Hippies
House of Mercury
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Breen Salak
the fact I'm still stripping asteroids in little over one cycle is beginning to make the whole thing exasperating.
This is VERY annoying, give me one giant roid rather than dozens of tiny ones any day even if the total volume present is the same.
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-=Snasty, short for Shagnasty ever since the GM's in SWG made me change it...!=- |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:29:00 -
[14]
I must be doing something wrong. I find plenty of belts and enough grav sites to keep me happy every time I log on.
Yes, in highsec.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:31:00 -
[15]
Nerf veldspar.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
UniToxic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:36:00 -
[16]
I've flew through 15 Amarrian systems today, all full of asteroids, yes they may be 0.3 --> 0.4 but its your risk vs reward, you want ore, then you need to compete against others for it, if that means getting a whole corp or small fleet to move to X system to beable to protect the miners then so be it.
This is an MMO, i.e. not promoting single playing sessions, plenty of systems out there if you are just prepared to take of the "carebear" hate and be prepared to risk your ship.
(This is coming from someone who has only been playing 6weeks)
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FreddyMac
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Posted - 2009.05.17 14:37:00 -
[17]
Nerf Chribba?
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FingerThief
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 15:09:00 -
[18]
Edited by: FingerThief on 17/05/2009 15:10:00
Originally by: UniToxic
I've flew through 15 Amarrian systems today, all full of asteroids, yes they may be 0.3 --> 0.4
I am not disputing that LoSec has asteroid belts that have nice size, I am requesting CCP to revise the seed mechanics as they have done with almost everything else in the game to adequate the current player amount.
It was harsh in the beginning to mine in LoSec ... I have been doing so since day 1 ... but with 10x the players the risk has also grown 10x to mine in LoSec and unless you swarm a LoSec system ... it's not worth mining there anymore.
BTW: MMO does not mean that you HAVE to work as a corp or fleet, it means that you encounter other characters that are not NPC.
FT
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Morcam
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Posted - 2009.05.17 15:10:00 -
[19]
You're too close to jita. For that matter, I'm just over 10 jumps away, and I can mine all day with no problems. You're just looking in too common, mined out systems. Also, the guy that suggested low sec - No.
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.05.17 15:15:00 -
[20]
Goto nullsec, stop doing stuff macros do already.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.05.17 15:22:00 -
[21]
There is an infinite amount of ore available. Not only in gravimetric sites but also in asteroids found in missions, cosmic anomalies and other exploration sites.
IMHO, all mining should be moved to an exploration based system.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Verx Interis
Amarr
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.17 15:27:00 -
[22]
What about exploring for hidden belts?
Not only do you usually get them to yourself, they have lowsec ores (Hedbergite, Jaspet, Kernite, etc) in hisec.
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Logins required for this post: 68788 |
Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.05.17 15:37:00 -
[23]
plenty of roids in low sec QQ
The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments |
Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.05.17 16:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: UniToxic
its your risk vs reward, you want ore, then you need to compete against others for it, if that means getting a whole corp or small fleet to move to X system to beable to protect the miners then so be it.
You're a bit confused there. First you suggest that Risk vs Reward is the only metric of balance. It's not. There's also Effort vs Reward, Investment vs Reward, "Market Risk" vs Reward, etc. Someone who is willing to sit and mine for hour after hour has always been able to generate a modest income that way, call it the Boredom vs Reward metric. That has changed, and it is this change which is the point of the thread.
You also call up the "must compete" notion, as if direct PewPew PvP is the only form of competition. It's not. Competition is directly involved even with pure carebear Empire mining even when there is no combat involved. It's competitive in the arena of efficiency for one thing. People who invest significantly in skills and modules used to enjoy much greater throughput, the Reward for their Investment. Now they are "overqualified", skilled and equipped to mine in an environment which no longer exists. Their investments, rather than being rewarded has now been discounted and devalued. It is that change which is the point of the thread.
Originally by: UniToxic
This is an MMO, i.e. not promoting single playing sessions, plenty of systems out there if you are just prepared to take off the "carebear" hate and be prepared to risk your ship.
Again you're off the mark here. Back in the day, when I first started playing, we would organize corp mining ops for the noolie kids. Twenty miners in everything from frigates to barges and a handful of haulers supporting them all headed up by someone who'd invested in the appropriate Leadership skills, modules and implants. You apparently don't think that "counts" as multiplayer for some reason, but I could not disagree more strongly.
TBH I miss the team effort and noob integration of such ops. I have no need to mine anymore but I would still run such ops (if they were possible) just for the atmosphere of cooperation and the productive inclusion of noobs in the community. It may not be to your personal taste but that's hardly a valid reason for Eve to abandon this aspect of gameplay.
Originally by: UniToxic
(This is coming from someone who has only been playing 6weeks)
So it would seem.
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Tag Heuer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.17 16:14:00 -
[25]
'Exploration' is another aspect of EVE that can be fun and extremely rewarding. The universe of EVE is vast. Leave the confines of your station and go find some belts. They're out there and there's plenty of them!
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Breen Salak
Caldari
FriendlyFiends
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Posted - 2009.05.17 16:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: UniToxic
Edited by: UniToxic on 17/05/2009 14:37:26
I've flew through 15 Amarrian systems today, all full of asteroids, yes they may be 0.3 --> 0.4 but its your risk vs reward, you want ore, then you need to compete against others for it, if that means getting a whole corp or small fleet to move to X system to beable to protect the miners then so be it.
This is an MMO, i.e. not promoting single playing sessions, plenty of systems out there if you are just prepared to take off the "carebear" hate and be prepared to risk your ship.
(This is coming from someone who has only been playing 6weeks)
Well with all due respect, if you've only been playing for six weeks, your knowledge of mining will probably be those fifteen minutes you spent in the tutorial missions - not flying an exhumer. If you're flying a Hulk in high sec space, the best you'll manage on veldspar will be around 6-7 million ISK/hour. Given the average price of a Hulk is around 100 million ISK kitted out, you're not making the sort of returns that makes risking your ship worthwhile, unless of course you're going to prove me wrong by kitting out one of your own and flying through those 15 low sec systems. I'll doubt you'll survive the trip to the belt, let alone begin to mine one.
The solo miner has no real choice. If in null sec you're playing with alliances, while in low sec you're like a fish in a barrel unless you go along with a large fleet of corp mates (even more of an attractive prospect to passing pirates). That said, a lot of guys happily spend their lunch hour mining in high sec. We're not asking for huge rewards, just something worth mining.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.17 16:40:00 -
[27]
Asteroid belts are on the chopping block, and should have by all sensible accounts been removed years ago.
As for your constant comparison to the number of toys introduced for the combat side of the game.. well combat has the mechanics to support that amount of complexity. Mining doesn't. Adding 50 new ships and modules does absolutely nothing, except make it into an even more elaborate mini-profession.
For mining to make sense in this game, it has to be a primary function of industry. That's not going to happen if minerals can be obtained with your guns. I really pity anyone whose stupid enough to train for mining these days.
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.05.17 16:47:00 -
[28]
I trained mining 2 then beachslapped myself
The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.05.17 16:58:00 -
[29]
Maybe CCP should finally pull through with that mining revamp that they have been talking about for years.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.05.17 17:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
You're a bit confused there. First you suggest that Risk vs Reward is the only metric of balance. It's not. There's also Effort vs Reward, Investment vs Reward, "Market Risk" vs Reward, etc. Someone who is willing to sit and mine for hour after hour has always been able to generate a modest income that way, call it the Boredom vs Reward metric. That has changed, and it is this change which is the point of the thread.
Effort/investment/'market risk' are all risks.
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
You also call up the "must compete" notion, as if direct PewPew PvP is the only form of competition. It's not. Competition is directly involved even with pure carebear Empire mining even when there is no combat involved. It's competitive in the arena of efficiency for one thing. People who invest significantly in skills and modules used to enjoy much greater throughput, the Reward for their Investment. Now they are "overqualified", skilled and equipped to mine in an environment which no longer exists. Their investments, rather than being rewarded has now been discounted and devalued. It is that change which is the point of the thread.
Since you point out what 'competing' with others is, why not go DO it? Pure combat PVP has competition in terms of other sharks in the waters. Miners have competition in the form of other miners. It's not that hard to understand is it? The only reason they are 'overqualified' is because they refuse to use those ships and skills that were given to them to be used in more dangerous locations. The hulk is meant to be a mining ship used in more dangerous waters, not in a 1.0 system. Want to avoid competition? Find a different system. No more systems in hisec? Check out lowsec/0.0
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Again you're off the mark here. Back in the day, when I first started playing, we would organize corp mining ops for the noolie kids. Twenty miners in everything from frigates to barges and a handful of haulers supporting them all headed up by someone who'd invested in the appropriate Leadership skills, modules and implants. You apparently don't think that "counts" as multiplayer for some reason, but I could not disagree more strongly.
TBH I miss the team effort and noob integration of such ops. I have no need to mine anymore but I would still run such ops (if they were possible) just for the atmosphere of cooperation and the productive inclusion of noobs in the community. It may not be to your personal taste but that's hardly a valid reason for Eve to abandon this aspect of gameplay.
So why don't you do that now? Nothing in the game mechanics has changed so that you can't be mining in a gang. Why wouldn't they be possible?
Originally by: UniToxic
(This is coming from someone who has only been playing 6weeks)
I think he's got it spot on tbh
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