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Existential Angst	Posted - 2009.06.08 20:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Flagging of wrecks should change so that after a period of time it becomes "trash", so that anybody can loot or salvage it. Let's all just pretend that this is the current system, and the "period of time" for salvage rights to go public is 1 second. Everyone happy now? Good. I do have to ask though, if salvaging other peoples' wrecks is so lucrative, why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions? Because they're too busy whining on here?
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.08 21:00:00 - [32] Quote: why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions Pride, Frankness, Forthrightness, ...
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.08 21:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions Pride, Frankness, Forthrightness, ... Foolishness Seriously, someone has to provide the wrecks.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 02:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Existential Angst Originally by: Deryk Blacke Flagging of wrecks should change so that after a period of time it becomes "trash", so that anybody can loot or salvage it. Let's all just pretend that this is the current system, and the "period of time" for salvage rights to go public is 1 second. Everyone happy now? Good. Perhaps half the time that it will take the can to pop, might be more realistic - eh? Quote: I do have to ask though, if salvaging other peoples' wrecks is so lucrative, why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions? Because they're too busy whining on here? Perhaps because they do not consider themselves scum... perhaps.
Ultranoia Temple of THEM	Posted - 2009.06.09 04:57:00 - [35] These kind of whines are mostly based on the flawed and narrow perspective of the mission monkey. Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. So instead of whining for increazed mission lootz, try to show some initiative. Hire a salvager. Ask a corp mate to help you. Salvage the wrecks yrself. Anything really, as long as these meaningless threads fail to appear...
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.09 06:32:00 - [36] the discussion is obsolete. Mission runners will always cry for more ISK. However, they forget they're stealing the stuff from the NPC too while whining about being robbed by salvagers, this is hilarious.
Yargol	Posted - 2009.06.09 07:23:00 - [37] Edited by: Yargol on 09/06/2009 07:23:51 Edited by: Yargol on 09/06/2009 07:23:31 Originally by: Ultranoia So instead of whining for increazed mission lootz, try to show some initiative. Hire a salvager. Ask a corp mate to help you. Salvage the wrecks yrself. Anything really, as long as these meaningless threads fail to appear... Do you think people would whine in the first place if they didn't intend to salvage their own wrecks ? EDIT: erf.. damn forum
Mavrix Able Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.06.09 07:41:00 - [38] Originally by: Kel Nissa I think that the main issue is that currently mining is flawed. Mechanic should work like that: Miner puts laser on Roid. Some smaller rocks fall down next to the Roid. Now the miner should be able to get this stuff and put it into his cargo. As long as its not in his cargo, everyone should be able to take the minerals next to the roid because they dont belong to anyone. See, in fact it is working exactly as intended. As it is not a miner has two options if he is solo. He can mine into his hold, flying back and forth everytime his cargo is filled, or he can jet-can mining, putting him in the risk of ore thieves. So he can either gimp his mining, but nullify the risk of loosing ISK to theft, or he can have a high production and hope he is left alone. Same goes for mission runners I guess, you could strip off some guns and get a salvager and tractor, to maximise the chance of you scoring the salvage. In fact the miner is even more screwed than you, because if he is robbed there is nothing left, where as you still get bounty, reward and LPs. "But but but... atleast the guy is flagged for the miner." Well yes, and the miner is in a squishy specially fitted craft that can't kill anything unless you special fit it, in fact, play you cards right and you as a mission runner is at better odds getting the salvager killed than the miner is when it comes to killing a thief. -NWS/Mav

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2009.06.09 11:47:00 - [39] I have a habit of posting in these threads. See no reason to go against tradition. Sadly, I've already explained the whole shebang a couple of times already and have heard no discussions as to changing the ownership of salvage. Things are working as they were designed and I do believe we're quite happy about what the introduction of salvaging has done for us. So, there's nothing more to add. Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. Makes me wonder.. could changing all T1 loot in missions to more salvage drops make mission running a bit less of a droning repetition and even the playing field between the main professions (that does not include salvaging) a little bit. It would reduce the overflow of reprocessed T1 loot minerals, as well as the constant supply of low price T1 from mission drops (which are then resold at higher prices, probably back to the group selling them in the first place, creating the most profitable profession in EVE. Never understood why so many seem to think it's running L4s.) and possibly make running missions a bit more exciting as the choices you make impact your ISK generation more. Sounds all in all more EVE like to me tbh. But you can sleep easy. I don't make those decisions. So it's no more than my twisted thought. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Sytoru Hiroshyma SkillzKillz	Posted - 2009.06.09 11:57:00 - [40] If by "removing all T1 drops" you're actually talking about all M1 drops then that'd be fine with the way things currently work and help to solve a few other problems: Increased availability of minerals. Increased viavility of T1 manufacture. Reduced mission rewards, particularly for L4 Increased availability of salvaged items. If by "removing all T1 drops" you're actually talking about all M1-4 drops then I really, really want to get a look at the industry stuff you are working on!
Matsif Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.09 12:20:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Prism X Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. there. now all mission runners either salvage as you go or stop crying when u get ninja'd, cause its competitive.
Chi Quan Bibkor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:18:00 - [42] Edited by: Chi Quan on 09/06/2009 14:19:25 Originally by: Ultranoia These kind of whines are mostly based on the flawed and narrow perspective of the mission monkey. ...as if a parasite like a ninja would understand its hosts perspective. utter rubbish. Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. EVERYTHING in an MMO is competitive, even without ninjas the mission runners would compete with the 0.0 folks and with each other. Originally by: Ultranoia So instead of whining for increazed mission lootz, try to show some initiative. Hire a salvager. Ask a corp mate to help you. Salvage the wrecks yourself. Anything really, as long as these meaningless threads fail to appear... how about a forum filter? that would make those post go away 100%. and the suggestions you made, do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, against the ninja. now to the details: Hire a salvager - how should payment be arranged? 1. thing you learn in eve is trust no one. Ask a corp mate to help you - yep, ask SWA to help you /no1 Salvage the wrecks yourself - and diminish your dps to the point where you can't break the rats tank. Or use a marauder. What? you don't have the skills, gee 1 month of skill training is all it takes. No ISK for the ship? What have you been doing this month, didn't you salvage? CCP saying it's ok, is the ONE AND ONLY argument for your cause. Go hide behind them parasites. that said, i urge every mission runner to blow up his wrecks when a ninja is near. having ninjas buying full halo sets out of ninjasalvage is ridiculous. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Chi Quan ...as if a parasite like a ninja would understand its hosts perspective. utter rubbish. omg I wonder in which language CCP has to make the statements regarding salvage... T H E S A L V A G E I S N O T Y O U R S !!! I understand you mission monkey want more ISK, but, be glad your loot is protected by the game rules, you're actually are stealing NPC loot which does not belong to you but its reserved for you for some silly reasons. But, T H E S A L V A G E I S N O T !!! Neither from the technical perspective, nor from the gameplay view. Just remember the following: T H E S A L V A G E I S N O T Y O U R S !!! No, its not!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:41:00 - [44] Salvaging a wreck is desecrating the graves of thousands of crew, and should earn the callous salvager a GCC.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 15:08:00 - [45] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 09/06/2009 15:10:05 Originally by: Chi Quan Originally by: Ultranoia These kind of whines are mostly based on the flawed and narrow perspective of the mission monkey. ...as if a parasite like a ninja would understand its hosts perspective. utter rubbish. As if the dog would understand the flea's perspective. This goes both ways. Unless, of course, you've tried both... Originally by: Chi Quan EVERYTHING in an MMO is competitive, even without ninjas the mission runners would compete with the 0.0 folks and with each other. Explain to me exactly how mission-running is competetive. You get your mission and you run it - nobody else can take the reward or the LP away from you in the vast majority of cases (theft of mission-critical loot accepted) so long as you don't do anything stupid. How is a mission-runner competing with 0.0 folks when he's running missions in hisec? And it is hisec only we are talking about, as this is the only place the MR can't exact revenge on the ninja. Originally by: Chi Quan how about a forum filter? that would make those post go away 100%. and the suggestions you made, do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, against the ninja. now to the details: Hire a salvager - how should payment be arranged? 1. thing you learn in eve is trust no one. You have nobody in eve you trust? That is sad, dude. How about an alt? Quote: Ask a corp mate to help you - yep, ask SWA to help you /no1 There are other corps out there - try a player corp. This is an MMO, after all. Quote: Salvage the wrecks yourself - and diminish your dps to the point where you can't break the rats tank. Rarely happens. In fact, you can fit a Raven with a salvager and a tractor beam and a full compliment of torps/cruise and still get 550+DPS with a range of 90km (sensor limited). It has 8 high slots and 6 missile bays. The Geddon has 7 turrets and 8 hi-slots, so fit a salvager; the Megathron is the same, and the Tempest has 8 hi slots and 6 turret slots. All of the races have a BS which allows good DPS and a salvager or salvager/tractor combo. Quote: Or use a marauder. What? you don't have the skills, gee 1 month of skill training is all it takes. No ISK for the ship? What have you been doing this month, didn't you salvage? Indeed, salvage using one of the fits I mentioned, or one of the other methods. Quote: CCP saying it's ok, is the ONE AND ONLY argument for your cause. Go hide behind them parasites. Parasites usually harm whoever they latch onto. It's more symbiotic - who do you think provides the materials that those rigs you have fitted to that mission ship of yours are made from? And I am yet to see an argument for the mission runner owning the wreckage which is yet to be debunked by CCP/common sense. Quote: that said, i urge every mission runner to blow up his wrecks when a ninja is near. having ninjas buying full halo sets out of ninjasalvage is ridiculous. Hey, if you want to pay more for your rigs then that's a good way to go. Increase the supply of salvage materials and you reduce the cost of rigs. Simple supply and demand.
Faith O'Siras	Posted - 2009.06.09 15:53:00 - [46] Posting in another salvage thief whine thread for lawls and post-count. Oh yeah, and IBTL.
Scientific Method	Posted - 2009.06.09 16:02:00 - [47] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Hey, if you want to pay more for your rigs then that's a good way to go. Increase the supply of salvage materials and you reduce the cost of rigs. Simple supply and demand. The price of rigs is not a major consideration for mission-runners, as they never lose ships.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 16:45:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Prism X Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. Fail CCP is fail CCP. It is not just about the isk. It is about the time. The person fragged that NPC. Before salvaging, they were relatively assured the plunder of their kill. The reward for their time. Salvaging introduced a new means of theft without repercussions. If somebody is spending their time mining, and somebody flips their can - they are flagged. The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. If the person wants to salvage another's kill, give them some risk for their reward. THAT is essentially what it does boil down to.
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.06.09 16:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Deryk Blacke The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. You, sir, lack a clue. Cemented by the fact that you seem to think that the addition of Salvage reduced the current generation of ISK in missions where it obviously just added a whole new bunch of crap as rewards. Are you perhaps confusing that change with the introduction of LPs rather than modules as payment for missions. That's where they replaced one thing with another.. salvage was just a pure addition into the system.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Decarus Originally by: Deryk Blacke The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. You, sir, lack a clue. Cemented by the fact that you seem to think that the addition of Salvage reduced the current generation of ISK in missions where it obviously just added a whole new bunch of crap as rewards. Are you perhaps confusing that change with the introduction of LPs rather than modules as payment for missions. That's where they replaced one thing with another.. salvage was just a pure addition into the system. With the introduction of salvaging, the number of ships with loot dropped. With the introduction of salvaging, the amount of time required to finish "looting" increased.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Deryk Blacke With the introduction of salvaging, the number of ships with loot dropped. With the introduction of salvaging, the amount of time required to finish "looting" increased. And with the introduction of salvaging, a competetive element to mission running was introduced.
Gourdo Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:24:00 - [52] Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. After all once the mission is turned in it is all over anyways and the pilot was paid. If the pilot wants to salvage his wrecks without risk of wrecks being stolen then he will have to do it while the mission is still active. Yes it may mean he might loose his bonus if it takes too long but then he has to weight the bonus reward over the potential of salvage value. It is extremely irritating when you are there fighting off the entire room and he comes some guy still your wrecks while you are still fighting. If it was a flaggable offense while the mission was still active then that mission runner would be able to defend his wrecks while he was still doing the mission. After the mission then the wrecks would be fair game. Of course this would also mean the loot in the wrecks would be fair game too. As for Ratting I would leave that as it is.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. After all once the mission is turned in it is all over anyways and the pilot was paid. If the pilot wants to salvage his wrecks without risk of wrecks being stolen then he will have to do it while the mission is still active. Yes it may mean he might loose his bonus if it takes too long but then he has to weight the bonus reward over the potential of salvage value. It is extremely irritating when you are there fighting off the entire room and he comes some guy still your wrecks while you are still fighting. If it was a flaggable offense while the mission was still active then that mission runner would be able to defend his wrecks while he was still doing the mission. After the mission then the wrecks would be fair game. Of course this would also mean the loot in the wrecks would be fair game too. As for Ratting I would leave that as it is. No. You'd just leave the mission not turned in until you'd salvaged everything, meaning you could shoot anyone who comes along innocently salvaging. Here's a better idea: make wrecks scannable by probes. This would allow salvagers to scan for wrecks instead of missions, meaning that those who don't salvage their own missions would have their salvage discoverable for up to two hours after they leave. It also reduces the chances of a salvager turning up in an active mission.
Gourdo Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Here's a better idea: make wrecks scannable by probes. wrecks are already scanable that is one of ways how the find the rooms that you have cleared and not it
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Gourdo Originally by: Lear Hepburn Here's a better idea: make wrecks scannable by probes. wrecks are already scanable that is one of ways how the find the rooms that you have cleared and not it lol you're right - you've just made my salvaging even easier!
Niko Lorenzio United Eve Directorate	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:23:00 - [56] REASONS TO KEEP THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT IS: 1) Hypothetically more risk involved (for so called thieves) less of them will be willing to do that, which will result in a) Less Salvage on the market, higher rig costs b) More unsalvaged junk in space for longer periods of time, more lag 2) Like the dev's said, it's a good profession, and it's an especially good profession for those starting out and need a quick fix of income. Probing and salvaging other peoples missions isn't exactly the most fun thing someone could do, and once people advance in skill theres much better ways to spend their time on. WAYS TO GO AROUND IT: 1) Salvage/loot as you go along. You dont need a lot of cargospace to achieve this, just tractor a jetcan with you 2) Instead of being greedy, and treating them as hostiles, offer them or other capable noobs a partnership. They could gang up with you, and loot and salvage your mission. You could either split loot/salvage 50/50 or they keep salvage and you keep loot, or whatever other agreement you want to come to. (I used to do this personally a lot, and it works great)
Niko Lorenzio United Eve Directorate	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Niko Lorenzio Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea how about you just learn its working like it should and quit crying about it over and over and over and over AND OVER and over and over again
Niko Lorenzio United Eve Directorate	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Gin G Originally by: Niko Lorenzio Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea how about you just learn its working like it should and quit crying about it over and over and over and over AND OVER and over and over again I'm sorry... I just completely missed your point or message... wth you talking about?
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:44:00 - [60] Its just like real live. There are laws. Some people find loop holes inside laws. The law is still the same and justice tells everyone that the law is correct. The loop holes get used more often and more people complain about that. This causes some troubles and work for justice. Some years later law adopts, the issue gets fixed. This proves that the people which told us that "everything is okay" where initially wrong and unable to recognize the issue. The odd thing is only that it always happens several years afterward first people recognize the issue and it always needs heavy investment of many people to convince justice that the law itself is flawed. Current situation in EVE is more or less exactly the same. People are already proving that our EVEs law is flawed. They invest more time into argumentation as the people telling us again and again that everything is fine. The real funny thing is the mind of some person defending the current law. Its something like "CCP told us" - this means that im right -> haha (think about a little child making some grimace) -> got permission to do everything i want haha! Why dont you try to prove your point that the current mechanic is flawless? ;o) To hard for you? Or is "CCP told us that its perfectly fine because its a profession" everything you got in your arsenale? Ah nah i forgot: God (= CCP in this case) told us that everything works as expected -> Its impossible that something is wrong. <sarkasm="off">

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