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Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:17:00 - [61] Nobody yet stated in this thread a reason why wrecks should belong to you. Wrecks are defunctional piece of scrap, when you salvage it you get defunctional pieces of scrap. Only because it is a mini-profession makes sure this scrap is actually worth something because it is recycled. You should not get private salvaging rights because: A) The space does not belong to you, it is not an instance it is still in the space of the faction, you don't make the rules there. B) Salvage is in it's normal state useless but only through a profession does it actually become useful. C) Lvl 4 missions pay as much as average 0.0 ratting and way more than low-sec ratting without risk. A money boost is definitely not needed here, the only thing is that there are faction spawns out in but they have added risk of getting your ass blown up! A flag would be a horrible idea as you should not have private salvaging rights, this is just pure greed of the missioning community and I believe private tractor beam rights should be removed. Eve is a highly competitive PVP game after all not a solo game, let's keep it that way shall we.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:48:00 - [62] Originally by: Niko Lorenzio Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea No it isn't, because you'd just leave the mission not turned in until you'd salvaged everything, meaning you have effectively reserved the salvage for yourself. IF there was any form of temporary ownership, it should be time based, and short - maybe 10-15mins tops.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:50:00 - [63] Simple fix: move all kill missions out of hi-sec.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:55:00 - [64] Quote: Simple fix: move all kill missions out of hi-sec. Leads to the question: whats the purpose of hi-sec.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 20:01:00 - [65] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Simple fix: move all kill missions out of hi-sec. Leads to the question: whats the purpose of hi-sec. Mining
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:00:00 - [66] Originally by: Verys Nobody yet stated in this thread a reason why wrecks should belong to you. Did the ship blow itself up or did somebody blow it up? Can anybody loot that wreck without being flagged or is there, oh, I do not know, flagging there? So guess what, CCP has said that the wreck belongs to the person that blew the ship up... I can blow up the wreck, you cannot - I can tractor the wreck, you cannot... hrmmm, curious - eh? Quote: Wrecks are defunctional piece of scrap, when you salvage it you get defunctional pieces of scrap. Only because it is a mini-profession makes sure this scrap is actually worth something because it is recycled. The introduction of salvage reduced the amount of "loot" that dropped. Quote: You should not get private salvaging rights because: A) The space does not belong to you, it is not an instance it is still in the space of the faction, you don't make the rules there. Who made the wreck? Quote: B) Salvage is in it's normal state useless but only through a profession does it actually become useful. A person looting a laser that has no laser skills is useless in it's normal state. Only through selling that to somebody that can use it (or recycling it) does it become useful. Do you have more useless arguments? Quote: C) Lvl 4 missions pay as much as average 0.0 ratting and way more than low-sec ratting without risk. A money boost is definitely not needed here, the only thing is that there are faction spawns out in but they have added risk of getting your ass blown up! There is no risk in running L4s? For some, sure, that risk has become trivial as they have skilled up. For those new to L4s, they are still going to face plenty of risks. Lots of those new folks get in their bright new BS and lose it pretty fast... Quote: A flag would be a horrible idea as you should not have private salvaging rights, this is just pure greed of the missioning community and I believe private tractor beam rights should be removed. Greed? LMFAO. They spent the time to train up to run the mission. They spent the isk to fit the ship for the mission. They spend the time and assume the risk in running the mission. Their rewards were cut with the introduction of salvaging as loot amount was reduced. The salvager comes in having spent almost no time, almost no isk, and without any risk... lmfao, so seriously, lmfao. Quote: Eve is a highly competitive PVP game after all not a solo game, let's keep it that way shall we. Then flag them, and let it be that competitive PVP game you want instead of whining about it and hiding behind botched mechanics. The same discussion has been going on in regards to PVP loot as well: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=778546 This is a decent thread on the wreck issue as well: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1031837
Solostrom	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:12:00 - [67] So my best contribution to this conversation is this... Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! Along with the fact that multiple times the Devs have stated... not broken, intended, works like we want it to work! WTF did this thread reach 3 pages? And yes my bad for adding to it... get over it... stop... read the last 2999 threads regarding same subject and just SHUT UP!
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:13:00 - [68] Quote: Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! they got something to hide?
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:22:00 - [69] Originally by: Solostrom So my best contribution to this conversation is this... Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! Along with the fact that multiple times the Devs have stated... not broken, intended, works like we want it to work! WTF did this thread reach 3 pages? And yes my bad for adding to it... get over it... stop... read the last 2999 threads regarding same subject and just SHUT UP! No. If they want it so that anybody can salvage, then anybody should be able to tractor - attack, etc. Cargo should drop separate from the wreck. Either way you look at it, it is broken - either because they want it to work one way but botched it or because folks want it to work like the other actions on a wreck and flag.
Solostrom	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:47:00 - [70] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Originally by: Solostrom So my best contribution to this conversation is this... Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! Along with the fact that multiple times the Devs have stated... not broken, intended, works like we want it to work! WTF did this thread reach 3 pages? And yes my bad for adding to it... get over it... stop... read the last 2999 threads regarding same subject and just SHUT UP! No. If they want it so that anybody can salvage, then anybody should be able to tractor - attack, etc. Cargo should drop separate from the wreck. Either way you look at it, it is broken - either because they want it to work one way but botched it or because folks want it to work like the other actions on a wreck and flag. Hey genius... I use this word loosely... they want that the loot is yours... the salvage has always been up for grabs. So it is not broken you are just too greedy to understand. You want... 1) LP for running mish 2) Bounties for running mish 3) Rewards for running mish 4) Bonus for running mish 5) Loot for running mish 6) Minerals for reprocessing the loot that sucks while your running mish 7) The salvage for running mish Wait you know what, the part 7) just blows my mind given the exactly zero risks you took running the mish. Given there was precisely ZERO risk in your doing so... assuming you aren't an idiot. This is the same thought process the Devs came to when they added this feature yet for years now at least one person has to add this thread every single day. A) Read the Thread histories before posting B) Stop being greedy!
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:13:00 - [71] Originally by: Solostrom Hey genius... I use this word loosely... they want that the loot is yours... the salvage has always been up for grabs. So it is not broken you are just too greedy to understand. I rarely run missions. Even more rarely do I salvage them. It is not about greed in the least, it is about pointing out how pathetic some people are in their whining and crying - that they do not even realize it. Quote: You want... 1) LP for running mish 2) Bounties for running mish 3) Rewards for running mish 4) Bonus for running mish 5) Loot for running mish 6) Minerals for reprocessing the loot that sucks while your running mish 7) The salvage for running mish Considering that none of that would come about without a person having accepted a mission, it seems kind of obvious that a person running the mission might think that way, eh? Quote: Wait you know what, the part 7) just blows my mind given the exactly zero risks you took running the mish. Given there was precisely ZERO risk in your doing so... assuming you aren't an idiot. This is the same thought process the Devs came to when they added this feature yet for years now at least one person has to add this thread every single day. For people new to any level mission, they face the possibility of losing their ship. Hell, sometimes things just go wrong for a person - they aggro the whole room - they get scrammed - etc, etc. Sure, with some SP and a clue - you greatly reduce the risk... but for a lot of the folks out there, they have risk. Quote: A) Read the Thread histories before posting B) Stop being greedy! A) It is still an issue. B) Stop being an idiot. You want... A) Zero Risk ISK Even pirates face risk in pirating. Even ore thieves face risk in stealing. Salvagers define wussy.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:52:00 - [72] Edited by: Kel Nissa on 09/06/2009 23:52:49 Quote: You want... 1) LP for running mish 2) Bounties for running mish 3) Rewards for running mish 4) Bonus for running mish 5) Loot for running mish 6) Minerals for reprocessing the loot that sucks while your running mish 7) The salvage for running mish Personally im heading for 8) some fun during missions But probably thats the reason why i think that missions are way to easy currently. But hey thats another story. Okay maybe in a stright forward variation: I am against ninjas even without the rewarding issue.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 03:39:00 - [73] Risk Vs Reward. Rats can pop the mission runner. Low risk of that happening but there is still a risk. Ninja won't get agro'd by rats, no kill rights for the mission runner. Zero risk. None. Solution to zero risk enterprise. Impliment target shifting capabilities based on the time something is on the grid. The rats will go after the fresh wave of drones, the ninja, the support fleet you've rustled up to help... whatever. The ninja now has a risk associated with their activites. Done.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.06.10 05:07:00 - [74] Go drown your tears in the bathroom on your navy ravens. Why are high sec mission runners the biggest bunch of crybabies in eve? "OMG my salvage!!" How about this. Leave high sec. Let your balls drop. Then you won't be so worried about it.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 05:46:00 - [75] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 05:46:30 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Ninja won't get agro'd by rats, [snip]. Zero risk. None. Incorrect. This can happen - it has happened to me. When it does happen you have to act fairly fast as salvagers typically are in small, tankless craft which are likely to get popped fast.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.10 08:46:00 - [76] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 10/06/2009 08:56:51 Originally by: Kel Nissa Its just like real live. There are laws. ... The real funny thing is the mind of some person defending the current law. Its something like "CCP told us" - this means that im right -> haha (think about a little child making some grimace) -> got permission to do everything i want haha! <sarkasm="off"> furhter, there is no logical reason for giving you the exclusive right to salvage since the wreck is actually not YOURS but of the NPC corp. Not the salvage mechanics are flawed but the loot mechanics, actually the loot has to be free for all too like salvage because you're STEALING IT FROM THE NPC! Does not matter if you blew it or somebody else... Originally by: Deryk Blacke Quote: You should not get private salvaging rights because: A) The space does not belong to you, it is not an instance it is still in the space of the faction, you don't make the rules there. Who made the wreck? some NPC production facilty made the ship, you have just wrecked it which would hardly help argumenting a swap of the ownership. PvP wrecking mechanics are correct, the ownership for wrecks is kept by the player who owned the wrecked ship. Originally by: Deryk Blacke If they want it so that anybody can salvage, then anybody should be able to tractor - attack, etc. Cargo should drop separate from the wreck. yes, because the loot mechanics are broken. Actually, the wrecker as the salvager should both get flagged to the NPC corp, resulting in a free for all mechanics for the loot AND salvage. CCP please fix it, make the NPC-loot FFA like salvage!
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:10:00 - [77] Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 10/06/2009 16:13:08 Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 05:46:30 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Ninja won't get agro'd by rats, [snip]. Zero risk. None. Incorrect. This can happen - it has happened to me. When it does happen you have to act fairly fast as salvagers typically are in small, tankless craft which are likely to get popped fast. I'll have to take your word for it, I've yet to see rats target swap and attack the ninja. Not that I'm whining about Ninja's, as half the time they at least answer a convo and I use them as scouts for cap boosters (I'm usually just after the standings and/or look at the pretty explosions); which works in both out favours. I keep tanking, they keep looting. Other than the one that gave the RAWR response and was prompty pop'd by a LCO detonating like a SB.... Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Go drown your tears in the bathroom on your navy ravens. Why are high sec mission runners the biggest bunch of crybabies in eve? "OMG my salvage!!" How about this. Leave high sec. Let your balls drop. Then you won't be so worried about it. Have you see the captains head on a Raven? Dear god, the Caldari build some fine ships but creature comforts are not part of the spec. I'll go emorage in the station facilites thank you very much. I've been to low sec. I have no balls to drop. I'm not worried about it (see above). But what's the big attraction of low sec? 0.0 I can somewhat understand... low sec needs fiddling with IMHO.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:29:00 - [78] Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :)
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:38:00 - [79] there is a greate ninja guide: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=733552
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:46:00 - [80] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :) Hold on. I give a reasonable answer, to a reasonable response. I'm the PvE person here, the "carebear" if you wish and I'm being throughly polite and considering both sides of the argument. You, waltz in here and in your opening scentance start throwing insults ( "crybaby carebear" ) around; yet apparently it is me and mine that are whining. I put it to you sir that you need a dose of STFU, your mother should of beaten some manners in to you and further more all those of you posting similar things time and time again whilst some of us attempt to figure out how this mechanic can either be fixed or tweaked to best serve both parities simply makes the entire PvP/anti-PvE camp of EVE appear to be a large collection of crying infants bawling that their favorite rattle has fallen out the pram.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:49:00 - [81] CRY cry CRY cry cry CRY CRY cry CRY.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:52:00 - [82] Originally by: Gin G CRY cry CRY cry cry CRY CRY cry CRY. I stand by my previous comment. Your rattle. You can't have it anymore. It's mine.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:38:00 - [83] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :) Hold on. I give a reasonable answer, to a reasonable response. I'm the PvE person here, the "carebear" if you wish and I'm being throughly polite and considering both sides of the argument. You, waltz in here and in your opening scentance start throwing insults ( "crybaby carebear" ) around; yet apparently it is me and mine that are whining. I put it to you sir that you need a dose of STFU, your mother should of beaten some manners in to you and further more all those of you posting similar things time and time again whilst some of us attempt to figure out how this mechanic can either be fixed or tweaked to best serve both parities simply makes the entire PvP/anti-PvE camp of EVE appear to be a large collection of crying infants bawling that their favorite rattle has fallen out the pram. In my opinion all those who have made QQ threads about ninja slaving are crybaby carebears. There are already ways in game to prevent salvage from being taken. So there is nothing to tweak or fix. Except for maybe the carebears.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:43:00 - [84] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 17:44:43 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash I'll have to take your word for it, I've yet to see rats target swap and attack the ninja. Not that I'm whining about Ninja's, as half the time they at least answer a convo and I use them as scouts for cap boosters (I'm usually just after the standings and/or look at the pretty explosions); which works in both out favours. I keep tanking, they keep looting. Other than the one that gave the RAWR response and was prompty pop'd by a LCO detonating like a SB.... Gave me a bit of a shock when it happened too! I suspect that most ninjas will respond to a convo, and may even offer to split any loot as you go along if you fleet up and share bounty as well. A nasty few may either tell you where to go (so I would blow up the salvage if I were you) or may even take the fleet offer and then try to leave without giving you any cash for the salvage - I'd consider a wardec for those evil buggers, and maybe even posting about them in C&P as a new scam. Quote: Have you see the captains head on a Raven? Dear god, the Caldari build some fine ships but creature comforts are not part of the spec. I'll go emorage in the station facilites thank you very much. I've been to low sec. I have no balls to drop. I'm not worried about it (see above). But what's the big attraction of low sec? 0.0 I can somewhat understand... low sec needs fiddling with IMHO. Lowsec/0.0 - either way you get to pop the ninja if that is your wish. I realise not everyone wants to do so, but for those that do, head that way.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:50:00 - [85] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :) Hold on. I give a reasonable answer, to a reasonable response. I'm the PvE person here, the "carebear" if you wish and I'm being throughly polite and considering both sides of the argument. You, waltz in here and in your opening scentance start throwing insults ( "crybaby carebear" ) around; yet apparently it is me and mine that are whining. I put it to you sir that you need a dose of STFU, your mother should of beaten some manners in to you and further more all those of you posting similar things time and time again whilst some of us attempt to figure out how this mechanic can either be fixed or tweaked to best serve both parities simply makes the entire PvP/anti-PvE camp of EVE appear to be a large collection of crying infants bawling that their favorite rattle has fallen out the pram. In my opinion all those who have made QQ threads about ninja slaving are crybaby carebears. There are already ways in game to prevent salvage from being taken. So there is nothing to tweak or fix. Except for maybe the carebears. If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? Indeed if there is nothing to be tweaked or fixed then why have you posted in support of a ship with a role bonus to salvaging? Obviously something is missing and/or wrong. That requires an unfortunate dialouge between the two biggest, mutual enemies of EVE: PvE and PvP players in order to reach a mutually agreeable solution. I would also point out that if you need a CovOps ship (with or without rigs) to find a mission runner then you are doing it exceptionally wrong. A T1 frigate can do it just as fast if the person running the probes has sufficient skill and experience.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? Indeed if there is nothing to be tweaked or fixed then why have you posted in support of a ship with a role bonus to salvaging? Obviously something is missing and/or wrong. That requires an unfortunate dialouge between the two biggest, mutual enemies of EVE: PvE and PvP players in order to reach a mutually agreeable solution. There are many threads about it because this does bring so-called PvE players into conflict with PvP players. I say "so-called" because this is an MMO - there is no such thing as pure PvE in Eve. The PvE players don't like that the PvP players can ruin (take part) in their (in everyone's) game and they feel that the PvP players are stealing (taking) their (anyone's) salvage. I feel this is a misconception from the so-called PvE community of Eve. Quote: I would also point out that if you need a CovOps ship (with or without rigs) to find a mission runner then you are doing it exceptionally wrong. A T1 frigate can do it just as fast if the person running the probes has sufficient skill and experience. True, but the CovOps bonuses make it faster and easier and also allow you to cloak on entry, reducing the chance of you getting aggro from an unaggroed group (assuming you stay outside 2km).
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 17:44:43 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash I'll have to take your word for it, I've yet to see rats target swap and attack the ninja. Not that I'm whining about Ninja's, as half the time they at least answer a convo and I use them as scouts for cap boosters (I'm usually just after the standings and/or look at the pretty explosions); which works in both out favours. I keep tanking, they keep looting. Other than the one that gave the RAWR response and was prompty pop'd by a LCO detonating like a SB.... Gave me a bit of a shock when it happened too! I suspect that most ninjas will respond to a convo, and may even offer to split any loot as you go along if you fleet up and share bounty as well. A nasty few may either tell you where to go (so I would blow up the salvage if I were you) or may even take the fleet offer and then try to leave without giving you any cash for the salvage - I'd consider a wardec for those evil buggers, and maybe even posting about them in C&P as a new scam. It is something I make sure to point out to new players. The vast majority of players in EVE are reasonably polite despite what they've read on the forums. Had plenty of Ninja's come along and get a plesant surprise when I let them loose without what I guess is the usual abuse? shrugs Curiously, I would have warned the RAWR person out of the mission until I'd popped all the LCO's and told them when it was safe to come in and salvage... if they had been civil. Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 17:44:43 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Have you see the captains head on a Raven? Dear god, the Caldari build some fine ships but creature comforts are not part of the spec. I'll go emorage in the station facilites thank you very much. I've been to low sec. I have no balls to drop. I'm not worried about it (see above). But what's the big attraction of low sec? 0.0 I can somewhat understand... low sec needs fiddling with IMHO. Lowsec/0.0 - either way you get to pop the ninja if that is your wish. I realise not everyone wants to do so, but for those that do, head that way. I like my sec rating but yeah I see where your comming from on that one. To be fair, I looted someones Blockade the other night as they were just in the mood to watch explosions; the amount of money I dragged out of the wrecks was nowhere equal to the ship bounties. Then again Serpentis wrecks have long needed a bit of love in that department. The salvage is a nice gravy on top of everything else sure, but I do have to wonder if as things go if its really a viable profession; my local prices have gone through the floor for all the common forms of it.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:04:00 - [88] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? 900 billion flies like eating **** so it must be magnificent food eh? I guess it would be alright to force you to eat it as well then.
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:07:00 - [89] Why is ninja salvaging so bad? ---> Because the wreck is mine -----> Why do you want the salvage? -------> So I can sell it for isk -----> greeeed
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:11:00 - [90] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken?? The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage.

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