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Kloiex	Posted - 2009.06.07 19:51:00 - [1] I want to talk about the very irritating ninja salvaging.... In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned, salvaging someones wrecks should be an illegal act in high sec most of the money from missions comes from salvaging and for someone to be able to take you're profit away from you without you being able to atleast blast them into space dust is very irritating. Warning: It would be horrible to only give us kill right scause they could come in something better and bigger than us. Giving us kill rights would not stop this "bussiness" at all.
dankness420	Posted - 2009.06.07 19:57:00 - [2] interesting
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.07 20:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Kloiex I want to talk about the very irritating ninja salvaging.... In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned, salvaging someones wrecks should be an illegal act in high sec most of the money from missions comes from salvaging and for someone to be able to take you're profit away from you without you being able to atleast blast them into space dust is very irritating. Warning: It would be horrible to only give us kill right scause they could come in something better and bigger than us. Giving us kill rights would not stop this "bussiness" at all. [sarcasm]Glad to see that someone has finally brought the topic up.[/sarcasm] Seriously, this has been mentioned many times. The mechanic is working as intended - it's not your salvage. Go read one of the few hundred threads on the topic. Oh, IBTL.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.06.07 20:08:00 - [4] PrismX's take on this -- RaTTuS @ InEve, Capital Prints for sale
Chomapuraku Caldari Templar Republic	Posted - 2009.06.07 20:43:00 - [5] Originally by: Kleenex I want to talk about the very irritating ninja salvaging.... In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned, salvaging someones wrecks should be an illegal act in high sec most of the money from missions comes from salvaging and for someone to be able to take you're profit away from you without you being able to atleast blast them into space dust is very irritating. Warning: It would be horrible to only give us kill right scause they could come in something better and bigger than us. Giving us kill rights would not stop this "bussiness" at all. fixed it for you Originally by: Misanth Being nice doesn't pay off, you should stop listening to the right shoulder parrot. The left one is usually right. so she shouldnt listen to the left one either?
Yargol	Posted - 2009.06.07 21:10:00 - [6] Broken game mechanics, and CCP hides behind it. The CCP dev answer you linked is ...ahem....how well ..Server blahblah you know, code thing, so this works as intended. People salvaging can make more money then you by shooting at NPC ships, and this is normal, it is meant to be ! You buy a ship ranging from 150M to 1B, you use ammo that cost money and they can make almost as much money as you without any risks and with a cormorant and a rack of salvagers and tractor beam for the price of like what: 5M ? And you know what ? this is designed that way... yes, it is... It is a game mechanics. And you known what , as the CCP dev said, EVE is hostile, so you can't even shoot the guy, see how hostile it is ?. All this mining/salving highsec stuff is just full BS. it just makes it easy for people to sneak and get past it, while in 0.0 space, they would only get shot down in flames. That's the funny part, what the devs call hostile, is just the safest way to make money in this game, and when you are victim there is nothing or close to nothing you can do about it But this is game design, you know. In the meantine, i just report the people for harassment. This make GM loose some of their time, and is good for my nerves
Sytoru Hiroshyma SkillzKillz	Posted - 2009.06.07 21:18:00 - [7] Originally by: RaTTuS PrismX's take on this Not the prismx quote i was hoping for. Anyone got a link to the one where you know he's had a bad day and loses it with someone whining about people stealing their salvage? The tl;dr version was pretty much "STFU" with an option on "GTFO".
Matsif Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.07 21:35:00 - [8] stop crying because people like playing the game different than you.
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.06.07 21:42:00 - [9] 1st) lrn2deal with other players interaction. this is not eve offline its eve online. 2nd) stfu pathetic newb 3rd) lrn2 not write in capital letters in your thread title
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.07 21:46:00 - [10] I wonder, how many posts need to be done, till someone recognize that there is an issue? 10? 100? 1000? ah na i forgot, we already reached that :oD 10.000 maybe? someone should count the existing posts :) Yargol
Kobushi OCForums	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:33:00 - [11] Miner= ore Explorer = site loot Builder = produced item Mission runner = Bounty AND loot AND Mission reward Salvager = Nothing Seems fair to you?
Yargol	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Tamahra 1st) lrn2deal with other players interaction. this is not eve offline its eve online. This is eve offline, in eve online, we should be able to shoot the guy ;) Well, I guess to deal with those guys, i'll just shoot the wrecks when the stealers show up on the grid. And all mission runners should do the same.
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:58:00 - [13] /me walks in Another one crying about not making enough money because his trash is being stolen? /me walks out
4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.06.08 07:15:00 - [14] Yet another one. Alright, I'm bored anyway, so here goes... It's not your salvage. Good to see this one realises the consequences of giving kill rights, that's certainly a first, but what DO you want other than kill rights? CONCORD intervention? Cry more. Missions are about the most risk free iskmobile in the game, and I say that as a mission runner myself. So you have to deal with the odd ninja salvager? Boo-freaking-hoo, try telling it to the dead nullsec ratters and see if they sympathise with you.
Emperor Salazar Caldari Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.06.08 07:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Kloiex I want to talk about the very irritating ninja salvaging.... here we go again... Originally by: Kloiex In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned, salvaging someones wrecks should be an illegal act in high sec CCP clearly disagrees with you. Working as intended. Go away.
Yargol	Posted - 2009.06.08 07:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Verys /me walks in Another one crying about not making enough money because his trash is being stolen? /me walks out The thing is you do at least as much money with selling the salvage as with the bounty. I'll salvage other folks wrecks, much simplier, and as money effective No better, make it a mission option: option 1: bounty/rewards, or option 2: exclusive salvage, meaning I don't get money from the kills but only from the wrecks I salvage and sell but no one else can do it. I take option 2 any time.
BarbFromCorporate	Posted - 2009.06.08 09:57:00 - [17] Would someone sore about other salvagers salvaging wrecks explain to me why they're not the ones salvaging wrecks they made?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.08 10:36:00 - [18] Originally by: BarbFromCorporate Would someone sore about other salvagers salvaging wrecks explain to me why they're not the ones salvaging wrecks they made? because there are already enough wrecks made by mission runners??? wtf
Hariya	Posted - 2009.06.08 12:43:00 - [19] Perhaps the correct solution to salvaging problem would be actually to make Concord protect also NPCs like they do protect players. This **ing stupid whine from complete ****s would stop pretty efficiently
Matsif Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.08 12:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Kel Nissa I wonder, how many posts need to be done, till someone recognize that there is an issue? 10? 100? 1000? ah na i forgot, we already reached that :oD 10.000 maybe? someone should count the existing posts :) Yargol its not an issue. see all the other threads and the endlessly quoted CCP statement about the topic
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.06.08 14:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Kloiex In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned How hard is it to hit F1 thru F8 and watch TV at the same time? Me, I think CCP ought to make it a flagging offense when someone (like me) salvages your wreak. This would help me when there is no loot to be had from your wreaks. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.08 15:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Originally by: Kloiex In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned How hard is it to hit F1 thru F8 and watch TV at the same time? Me, I think CCP ought to make it a flagging offense when someone (like me) salvages your wreak. This would help me when there is no loot to be had from your wreaks. And once again people are completely ignoring that it takes time to probe someone down... Really I've tried making discussions with multiple people who claim their salvage is stolen and constructively replied but all I get back is a "ME ME ME ITS ALL MINE!" or a "KEEP IN MIND I MAKE 15 MIL/H WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES AND I NEED TO WHINE ABOUT IT!" Now please just stop and play the game as it was intended competitive and unfair.
Cedims	Posted - 2009.06.08 16:27:00 - [23] When you shoot NPC's you already get rewarded by increase of CONCORD standings, payment AND you get any loot that may linger in the wreck. By definition, salvage is property saved by someone, other than the owner. So in strict sense, you would be rewarded, by the owner of the wreck, for saving it, not shooting it. :) Salvaging, in EVE, is the profession of saving parts from the actual SHIP (structure), not its cargo.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.08 16:57:00 - [24] I think that the main issue is that currently mining is flawed. Mechanic should work like that: Miner puts laser on Roid. Some smaller rocks fall down next to the Roid. Now the miner should be able to get this stuff and put it into his cargo. As long as its not in his cargo, everyone should be able to take the minerals next to the roid because they dont belong to anyone. Mission runner spent same effort to create "wrecks" as the miner needs to spend effort to slice the roid into smaller pieces. Funny aspect: No one of you is able to prove that there is no issue with salvaging. But its easy to prove that there is an issue with our current salvaging mechanic. The existence of this thread alone proves it already. Another flawed aspect i recognized: Some people think that its enough reward to get standing + bounty? I hope that your calculation includes the amount of missions without bounty rewards. I know someone else already suggested: just skip this missions - problem solved. When a solution for fixing missions includes skipping them someone might consider the solution as "unpolished". Personally i dont care about mission rewards. I dont care about the financial aspect. I care about the annoyance and the inability to stop ninjas from doing it. Thats why i vote for the ability to annoy every other profession as well to make it even.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.08 17:11:00 - [25] Before salvaging, you had more loot. Salvaging was introduced as something new and nifty and different and all that (lots of and's). The wreck is flagged as belonging to you. Blow something up and take a look. Salvaging should flag like looting. ...but... Flagging of wrecks should change so that after a period of time it becomes "trash", so that anybody can loot or salvage it. One can understand their concern about wrecks that will sit around from mission runners, but they added salvaging and should have thought about that first. They reduced the amount of iskies you could get from just looting the mission . . . but increased the chance they would get two accounts out of people as they run their salvaging alt while their main blows crap up. Of course they are not going to fix it...
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.08 17:22:00 - [26] Quote: One can understand their concern about wrecks that will sit around from mission runners, ... I cant understand this concern. The engine removes 2h old wrecks ;o)
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.08 17:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: One can understand their concern about wrecks that will sit around from mission runners, ... I cant understand this concern. The engine removes 2h old wrecks ;o) Take a look a the number of mission runners. Look at how fast they can go through missions. It would not take long for there to be thousands upon thousands of wrecks. Before salvaging, those wrecks were not there as people looted their own cans. Now, well...
Yargol	Posted - 2009.06.08 18:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Before salvaging, you had more loot. Salvaging was introduced as something new and nifty and different and all that (lots of and's). The wreck is flagged as belonging to you. Blow something up and take a look. Salvaging should flag like looting. ...but... Flagging of wrecks should change so that after a period of time it becomes "trash", so that anybody can loot or salvage it. (...) That is good, and it makes sense, and this is by far the best suggestion I've read in this thread. If it is left alone and turns into "trash", then go to salvage it for sure, if it's not, then it is a no go. Good for everyone, mission runners that want to salvage their loots and salvagers. Fine by me. Issue resolved :)
Kobushi OCForums	Posted - 2009.06.08 18:32:00 - [29] maybe but it doesn't solve the fact that with that change you are proposing mission runner now got 5 sources of revenues for a single profession, reward, LP, bounty, loot and you propose Salvage too. Remove bounty or reward/LP and I'll approve this proposed change to salvage criminal flagging mechanic.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.08 20:18:00 - [30] Did you know that missions got an adaptive algorithm adjusting their reward?
Existential Angst	Posted - 2009.06.08 20:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Flagging of wrecks should change so that after a period of time it becomes "trash", so that anybody can loot or salvage it. Let's all just pretend that this is the current system, and the "period of time" for salvage rights to go public is 1 second. Everyone happy now? Good. I do have to ask though, if salvaging other peoples' wrecks is so lucrative, why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions? Because they're too busy whining on here?
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.08 21:00:00 - [32] Quote: why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions Pride, Frankness, Forthrightness, ...
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.08 21:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions Pride, Frankness, Forthrightness, ... Foolishness Seriously, someone has to provide the wrecks.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 02:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Existential Angst Originally by: Deryk Blacke Flagging of wrecks should change so that after a period of time it becomes "trash", so that anybody can loot or salvage it. Let's all just pretend that this is the current system, and the "period of time" for salvage rights to go public is 1 second. Everyone happy now? Good. Perhaps half the time that it will take the can to pop, might be more realistic - eh? Quote: I do have to ask though, if salvaging other peoples' wrecks is so lucrative, why aren't the mission runners scanning down other peoples' wrecks to salvage instead of bothering to run missions? Because they're too busy whining on here? Perhaps because they do not consider themselves scum... perhaps.
Ultranoia Temple of THEM	Posted - 2009.06.09 04:57:00 - [35] These kind of whines are mostly based on the flawed and narrow perspective of the mission monkey. Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. So instead of whining for increazed mission lootz, try to show some initiative. Hire a salvager. Ask a corp mate to help you. Salvage the wrecks yrself. Anything really, as long as these meaningless threads fail to appear...
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.09 06:32:00 - [36] the discussion is obsolete. Mission runners will always cry for more ISK. However, they forget they're stealing the stuff from the NPC too while whining about being robbed by salvagers, this is hilarious.
Yargol	Posted - 2009.06.09 07:23:00 - [37] Edited by: Yargol on 09/06/2009 07:23:51 Edited by: Yargol on 09/06/2009 07:23:31 Originally by: Ultranoia So instead of whining for increazed mission lootz, try to show some initiative. Hire a salvager. Ask a corp mate to help you. Salvage the wrecks yrself. Anything really, as long as these meaningless threads fail to appear... Do you think people would whine in the first place if they didn't intend to salvage their own wrecks ? EDIT: erf.. damn forum
Mavrix Able Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.06.09 07:41:00 - [38] Originally by: Kel Nissa I think that the main issue is that currently mining is flawed. Mechanic should work like that: Miner puts laser on Roid. Some smaller rocks fall down next to the Roid. Now the miner should be able to get this stuff and put it into his cargo. As long as its not in his cargo, everyone should be able to take the minerals next to the roid because they dont belong to anyone. See, in fact it is working exactly as intended. As it is not a miner has two options if he is solo. He can mine into his hold, flying back and forth everytime his cargo is filled, or he can jet-can mining, putting him in the risk of ore thieves. So he can either gimp his mining, but nullify the risk of loosing ISK to theft, or he can have a high production and hope he is left alone. Same goes for mission runners I guess, you could strip off some guns and get a salvager and tractor, to maximise the chance of you scoring the salvage. In fact the miner is even more screwed than you, because if he is robbed there is nothing left, where as you still get bounty, reward and LPs. "But but but... atleast the guy is flagged for the miner." Well yes, and the miner is in a squishy specially fitted craft that can't kill anything unless you special fit it, in fact, play you cards right and you as a mission runner is at better odds getting the salvager killed than the miner is when it comes to killing a thief. -NWS/Mav

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2009.06.09 11:47:00 - [39] I have a habit of posting in these threads. See no reason to go against tradition. Sadly, I've already explained the whole shebang a couple of times already and have heard no discussions as to changing the ownership of salvage. Things are working as they were designed and I do believe we're quite happy about what the introduction of salvaging has done for us. So, there's nothing more to add. Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. Makes me wonder.. could changing all T1 loot in missions to more salvage drops make mission running a bit less of a droning repetition and even the playing field between the main professions (that does not include salvaging) a little bit. It would reduce the overflow of reprocessed T1 loot minerals, as well as the constant supply of low price T1 from mission drops (which are then resold at higher prices, probably back to the group selling them in the first place, creating the most profitable profession in EVE. Never understood why so many seem to think it's running L4s.) and possibly make running missions a bit more exciting as the choices you make impact your ISK generation more. Sounds all in all more EVE like to me tbh. But you can sleep easy. I don't make those decisions. So it's no more than my twisted thought. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Sytoru Hiroshyma SkillzKillz	Posted - 2009.06.09 11:57:00 - [40] If by "removing all T1 drops" you're actually talking about all M1 drops then that'd be fine with the way things currently work and help to solve a few other problems: Increased availability of minerals. Increased viavility of T1 manufacture. Reduced mission rewards, particularly for L4 Increased availability of salvaged items. If by "removing all T1 drops" you're actually talking about all M1-4 drops then I really, really want to get a look at the industry stuff you are working on!
Matsif Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.09 12:20:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Prism X Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. there. now all mission runners either salvage as you go or stop crying when u get ninja'd, cause its competitive.
Chi Quan Bibkor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:18:00 - [42] Edited by: Chi Quan on 09/06/2009 14:19:25 Originally by: Ultranoia These kind of whines are mostly based on the flawed and narrow perspective of the mission monkey. ...as if a parasite like a ninja would understand its hosts perspective. utter rubbish. Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. EVERYTHING in an MMO is competitive, even without ninjas the mission runners would compete with the 0.0 folks and with each other. Originally by: Ultranoia So instead of whining for increazed mission lootz, try to show some initiative. Hire a salvager. Ask a corp mate to help you. Salvage the wrecks yourself. Anything really, as long as these meaningless threads fail to appear... how about a forum filter? that would make those post go away 100%. and the suggestions you made, do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, against the ninja. now to the details: Hire a salvager - how should payment be arranged? 1. thing you learn in eve is trust no one. Ask a corp mate to help you - yep, ask SWA to help you /no1 Salvage the wrecks yourself - and diminish your dps to the point where you can't break the rats tank. Or use a marauder. What? you don't have the skills, gee 1 month of skill training is all it takes. No ISK for the ship? What have you been doing this month, didn't you salvage? CCP saying it's ok, is the ONE AND ONLY argument for your cause. Go hide behind them parasites. that said, i urge every mission runner to blow up his wrecks when a ninja is near. having ninjas buying full halo sets out of ninjasalvage is ridiculous. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Chi Quan ...as if a parasite like a ninja would understand its hosts perspective. utter rubbish. omg I wonder in which language CCP has to make the statements regarding salvage... T H E S A L V A G E I S N O T Y O U R S !!! I understand you mission monkey want more ISK, but, be glad your loot is protected by the game rules, you're actually are stealing NPC loot which does not belong to you but its reserved for you for some silly reasons. But, T H E S A L V A G E I S N O T !!! Neither from the technical perspective, nor from the gameplay view. Just remember the following: T H E S A L V A G E I S N O T Y O U R S !!! No, its not!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:41:00 - [44] Salvaging a wreck is desecrating the graves of thousands of crew, and should earn the callous salvager a GCC.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 15:08:00 - [45] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 09/06/2009 15:10:05 Originally by: Chi Quan Originally by: Ultranoia These kind of whines are mostly based on the flawed and narrow perspective of the mission monkey. ...as if a parasite like a ninja would understand its hosts perspective. utter rubbish. As if the dog would understand the flea's perspective. This goes both ways. Unless, of course, you've tried both... Originally by: Chi Quan EVERYTHING in an MMO is competitive, even without ninjas the mission runners would compete with the 0.0 folks and with each other. Explain to me exactly how mission-running is competetive. You get your mission and you run it - nobody else can take the reward or the LP away from you in the vast majority of cases (theft of mission-critical loot accepted) so long as you don't do anything stupid. How is a mission-runner competing with 0.0 folks when he's running missions in hisec? And it is hisec only we are talking about, as this is the only place the MR can't exact revenge on the ninja. Originally by: Chi Quan how about a forum filter? that would make those post go away 100%. and the suggestions you made, do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, against the ninja. now to the details: Hire a salvager - how should payment be arranged? 1. thing you learn in eve is trust no one. You have nobody in eve you trust? That is sad, dude. How about an alt? Quote: Ask a corp mate to help you - yep, ask SWA to help you /no1 There are other corps out there - try a player corp. This is an MMO, after all. Quote: Salvage the wrecks yourself - and diminish your dps to the point where you can't break the rats tank. Rarely happens. In fact, you can fit a Raven with a salvager and a tractor beam and a full compliment of torps/cruise and still get 550+DPS with a range of 90km (sensor limited). It has 8 high slots and 6 missile bays. The Geddon has 7 turrets and 8 hi-slots, so fit a salvager; the Megathron is the same, and the Tempest has 8 hi slots and 6 turret slots. All of the races have a BS which allows good DPS and a salvager or salvager/tractor combo. Quote: Or use a marauder. What? you don't have the skills, gee 1 month of skill training is all it takes. No ISK for the ship? What have you been doing this month, didn't you salvage? Indeed, salvage using one of the fits I mentioned, or one of the other methods. Quote: CCP saying it's ok, is the ONE AND ONLY argument for your cause. Go hide behind them parasites. Parasites usually harm whoever they latch onto. It's more symbiotic - who do you think provides the materials that those rigs you have fitted to that mission ship of yours are made from? And I am yet to see an argument for the mission runner owning the wreckage which is yet to be debunked by CCP/common sense. Quote: that said, i urge every mission runner to blow up his wrecks when a ninja is near. having ninjas buying full halo sets out of ninjasalvage is ridiculous. Hey, if you want to pay more for your rigs then that's a good way to go. Increase the supply of salvage materials and you reduce the cost of rigs. Simple supply and demand.
Faith O'Siras	Posted - 2009.06.09 15:53:00 - [46] Posting in another salvage thief whine thread for lawls and post-count. Oh yeah, and IBTL.
Scientific Method	Posted - 2009.06.09 16:02:00 - [47] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Hey, if you want to pay more for your rigs then that's a good way to go. Increase the supply of salvage materials and you reduce the cost of rigs. Simple supply and demand. The price of rigs is not a major consideration for mission-runners, as they never lose ships.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 16:45:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Prism X Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. Fail CCP is fail CCP. It is not just about the isk. It is about the time. The person fragged that NPC. Before salvaging, they were relatively assured the plunder of their kill. The reward for their time. Salvaging introduced a new means of theft without repercussions. If somebody is spending their time mining, and somebody flips their can - they are flagged. The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. If the person wants to salvage another's kill, give them some risk for their reward. THAT is essentially what it does boil down to.
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.06.09 16:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Deryk Blacke The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. You, sir, lack a clue. Cemented by the fact that you seem to think that the addition of Salvage reduced the current generation of ISK in missions where it obviously just added a whole new bunch of crap as rewards. Are you perhaps confusing that change with the introduction of LPs rather than modules as payment for missions. That's where they replaced one thing with another.. salvage was just a pure addition into the system.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Decarus Originally by: Deryk Blacke The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. You, sir, lack a clue. Cemented by the fact that you seem to think that the addition of Salvage reduced the current generation of ISK in missions where it obviously just added a whole new bunch of crap as rewards. Are you perhaps confusing that change with the introduction of LPs rather than modules as payment for missions. That's where they replaced one thing with another.. salvage was just a pure addition into the system. With the introduction of salvaging, the number of ships with loot dropped. With the introduction of salvaging, the amount of time required to finish "looting" increased.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Deryk Blacke With the introduction of salvaging, the number of ships with loot dropped. With the introduction of salvaging, the amount of time required to finish "looting" increased. And with the introduction of salvaging, a competetive element to mission running was introduced.
Gourdo Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:24:00 - [52] Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. After all once the mission is turned in it is all over anyways and the pilot was paid. If the pilot wants to salvage his wrecks without risk of wrecks being stolen then he will have to do it while the mission is still active. Yes it may mean he might loose his bonus if it takes too long but then he has to weight the bonus reward over the potential of salvage value. It is extremely irritating when you are there fighting off the entire room and he comes some guy still your wrecks while you are still fighting. If it was a flaggable offense while the mission was still active then that mission runner would be able to defend his wrecks while he was still doing the mission. After the mission then the wrecks would be fair game. Of course this would also mean the loot in the wrecks would be fair game too. As for Ratting I would leave that as it is.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. After all once the mission is turned in it is all over anyways and the pilot was paid. If the pilot wants to salvage his wrecks without risk of wrecks being stolen then he will have to do it while the mission is still active. Yes it may mean he might loose his bonus if it takes too long but then he has to weight the bonus reward over the potential of salvage value. It is extremely irritating when you are there fighting off the entire room and he comes some guy still your wrecks while you are still fighting. If it was a flaggable offense while the mission was still active then that mission runner would be able to defend his wrecks while he was still doing the mission. After the mission then the wrecks would be fair game. Of course this would also mean the loot in the wrecks would be fair game too. As for Ratting I would leave that as it is. No. You'd just leave the mission not turned in until you'd salvaged everything, meaning you could shoot anyone who comes along innocently salvaging. Here's a better idea: make wrecks scannable by probes. This would allow salvagers to scan for wrecks instead of missions, meaning that those who don't salvage their own missions would have their salvage discoverable for up to two hours after they leave. It also reduces the chances of a salvager turning up in an active mission.
Gourdo Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:39:00 - [54] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Here's a better idea: make wrecks scannable by probes. wrecks are already scanable that is one of ways how the find the rooms that you have cleared and not it
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:00:00 - [55] Originally by: Gourdo Originally by: Lear Hepburn Here's a better idea: make wrecks scannable by probes. wrecks are already scanable that is one of ways how the find the rooms that you have cleared and not it lol you're right - you've just made my salvaging even easier!
Niko Lorenzio United Eve Directorate	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:23:00 - [56] REASONS TO KEEP THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT IS: 1) Hypothetically more risk involved (for so called thieves) less of them will be willing to do that, which will result in a) Less Salvage on the market, higher rig costs b) More unsalvaged junk in space for longer periods of time, more lag 2) Like the dev's said, it's a good profession, and it's an especially good profession for those starting out and need a quick fix of income. Probing and salvaging other peoples missions isn't exactly the most fun thing someone could do, and once people advance in skill theres much better ways to spend their time on. WAYS TO GO AROUND IT: 1) Salvage/loot as you go along. You dont need a lot of cargospace to achieve this, just tractor a jetcan with you 2) Instead of being greedy, and treating them as hostiles, offer them or other capable noobs a partnership. They could gang up with you, and loot and salvage your mission. You could either split loot/salvage 50/50 or they keep salvage and you keep loot, or whatever other agreement you want to come to. (I used to do this personally a lot, and it works great)
Niko Lorenzio United Eve Directorate	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Niko Lorenzio Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea how about you just learn its working like it should and quit crying about it over and over and over and over AND OVER and over and over again
Niko Lorenzio United Eve Directorate	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Gin G Originally by: Niko Lorenzio Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea how about you just learn its working like it should and quit crying about it over and over and over and over AND OVER and over and over again I'm sorry... I just completely missed your point or message... wth you talking about?
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 18:44:00 - [60] Its just like real live. There are laws. Some people find loop holes inside laws. The law is still the same and justice tells everyone that the law is correct. The loop holes get used more often and more people complain about that. This causes some troubles and work for justice. Some years later law adopts, the issue gets fixed. This proves that the people which told us that "everything is okay" where initially wrong and unable to recognize the issue. The odd thing is only that it always happens several years afterward first people recognize the issue and it always needs heavy investment of many people to convince justice that the law itself is flawed. Current situation in EVE is more or less exactly the same. People are already proving that our EVEs law is flawed. They invest more time into argumentation as the people telling us again and again that everything is fine. The real funny thing is the mind of some person defending the current law. Its something like "CCP told us" - this means that im right -> haha (think about a little child making some grimace) -> got permission to do everything i want haha! Why dont you try to prove your point that the current mechanic is flawless? ;o) To hard for you? Or is "CCP told us that its perfectly fine because its a profession" everything you got in your arsenale? Ah nah i forgot: God (= CCP in this case) told us that everything works as expected -> Its impossible that something is wrong. <sarkasm="off">
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:17:00 - [61] Nobody yet stated in this thread a reason why wrecks should belong to you. Wrecks are defunctional piece of scrap, when you salvage it you get defunctional pieces of scrap. Only because it is a mini-profession makes sure this scrap is actually worth something because it is recycled. You should not get private salvaging rights because: A) The space does not belong to you, it is not an instance it is still in the space of the faction, you don't make the rules there. B) Salvage is in it's normal state useless but only through a profession does it actually become useful. C) Lvl 4 missions pay as much as average 0.0 ratting and way more than low-sec ratting without risk. A money boost is definitely not needed here, the only thing is that there are faction spawns out in but they have added risk of getting your ass blown up! A flag would be a horrible idea as you should not have private salvaging rights, this is just pure greed of the missioning community and I believe private tractor beam rights should be removed. Eve is a highly competitive PVP game after all not a solo game, let's keep it that way shall we.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:48:00 - [62] Originally by: Niko Lorenzio Originally by: Gourdo Just a thought and idea. How about you just make it a flaggable offense until the mission is turned in. If this is possible, I'm all for this. Sounds like a good idea No it isn't, because you'd just leave the mission not turned in until you'd salvaged everything, meaning you have effectively reserved the salvage for yourself. IF there was any form of temporary ownership, it should be time based, and short - maybe 10-15mins tops.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:50:00 - [63] Simple fix: move all kill missions out of hi-sec.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:55:00 - [64] Quote: Simple fix: move all kill missions out of hi-sec. Leads to the question: whats the purpose of hi-sec.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.09 20:01:00 - [65] Originally by: Kel Nissa Quote: Simple fix: move all kill missions out of hi-sec. Leads to the question: whats the purpose of hi-sec. Mining
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:00:00 - [66] Originally by: Verys Nobody yet stated in this thread a reason why wrecks should belong to you. Did the ship blow itself up or did somebody blow it up? Can anybody loot that wreck without being flagged or is there, oh, I do not know, flagging there? So guess what, CCP has said that the wreck belongs to the person that blew the ship up... I can blow up the wreck, you cannot - I can tractor the wreck, you cannot... hrmmm, curious - eh? Quote: Wrecks are defunctional piece of scrap, when you salvage it you get defunctional pieces of scrap. Only because it is a mini-profession makes sure this scrap is actually worth something because it is recycled. The introduction of salvage reduced the amount of "loot" that dropped. Quote: You should not get private salvaging rights because: A) The space does not belong to you, it is not an instance it is still in the space of the faction, you don't make the rules there. Who made the wreck? Quote: B) Salvage is in it's normal state useless but only through a profession does it actually become useful. A person looting a laser that has no laser skills is useless in it's normal state. Only through selling that to somebody that can use it (or recycling it) does it become useful. Do you have more useless arguments? Quote: C) Lvl 4 missions pay as much as average 0.0 ratting and way more than low-sec ratting without risk. A money boost is definitely not needed here, the only thing is that there are faction spawns out in but they have added risk of getting your ass blown up! There is no risk in running L4s? For some, sure, that risk has become trivial as they have skilled up. For those new to L4s, they are still going to face plenty of risks. Lots of those new folks get in their bright new BS and lose it pretty fast... Quote: A flag would be a horrible idea as you should not have private salvaging rights, this is just pure greed of the missioning community and I believe private tractor beam rights should be removed. Greed? LMFAO. They spent the time to train up to run the mission. They spent the isk to fit the ship for the mission. They spend the time and assume the risk in running the mission. Their rewards were cut with the introduction of salvaging as loot amount was reduced. The salvager comes in having spent almost no time, almost no isk, and without any risk... lmfao, so seriously, lmfao. Quote: Eve is a highly competitive PVP game after all not a solo game, let's keep it that way shall we. Then flag them, and let it be that competitive PVP game you want instead of whining about it and hiding behind botched mechanics. The same discussion has been going on in regards to PVP loot as well: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=778546 This is a decent thread on the wreck issue as well: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1031837
Solostrom	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:12:00 - [67] So my best contribution to this conversation is this... Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! Along with the fact that multiple times the Devs have stated... not broken, intended, works like we want it to work! WTF did this thread reach 3 pages? And yes my bad for adding to it... get over it... stop... read the last 2999 threads regarding same subject and just SHUT UP!
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:13:00 - [68] Quote: Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! they got something to hide?
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:22:00 - [69] Originally by: Solostrom So my best contribution to this conversation is this... Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! Along with the fact that multiple times the Devs have stated... not broken, intended, works like we want it to work! WTF did this thread reach 3 pages? And yes my bad for adding to it... get over it... stop... read the last 2999 threads regarding same subject and just SHUT UP! No. If they want it so that anybody can salvage, then anybody should be able to tractor - attack, etc. Cargo should drop separate from the wreck. Either way you look at it, it is broken - either because they want it to work one way but botched it or because folks want it to work like the other actions on a wreck and flag.
Solostrom	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:47:00 - [70] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Originally by: Solostrom So my best contribution to this conversation is this... Given the fact that a thread like this is created on average EVERY SINGLE DAY! Along with the fact that multiple times the Devs have stated... not broken, intended, works like we want it to work! WTF did this thread reach 3 pages? And yes my bad for adding to it... get over it... stop... read the last 2999 threads regarding same subject and just SHUT UP! No. If they want it so that anybody can salvage, then anybody should be able to tractor - attack, etc. Cargo should drop separate from the wreck. Either way you look at it, it is broken - either because they want it to work one way but botched it or because folks want it to work like the other actions on a wreck and flag. Hey genius... I use this word loosely... they want that the loot is yours... the salvage has always been up for grabs. So it is not broken you are just too greedy to understand. You want... 1) LP for running mish 2) Bounties for running mish 3) Rewards for running mish 4) Bonus for running mish 5) Loot for running mish 6) Minerals for reprocessing the loot that sucks while your running mish 7) The salvage for running mish Wait you know what, the part 7) just blows my mind given the exactly zero risks you took running the mish. Given there was precisely ZERO risk in your doing so... assuming you aren't an idiot. This is the same thought process the Devs came to when they added this feature yet for years now at least one person has to add this thread every single day. A) Read the Thread histories before posting B) Stop being greedy!
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:13:00 - [71] Originally by: Solostrom Hey genius... I use this word loosely... they want that the loot is yours... the salvage has always been up for grabs. So it is not broken you are just too greedy to understand. I rarely run missions. Even more rarely do I salvage them. It is not about greed in the least, it is about pointing out how pathetic some people are in their whining and crying - that they do not even realize it. Quote: You want... 1) LP for running mish 2) Bounties for running mish 3) Rewards for running mish 4) Bonus for running mish 5) Loot for running mish 6) Minerals for reprocessing the loot that sucks while your running mish 7) The salvage for running mish Considering that none of that would come about without a person having accepted a mission, it seems kind of obvious that a person running the mission might think that way, eh? Quote: Wait you know what, the part 7) just blows my mind given the exactly zero risks you took running the mish. Given there was precisely ZERO risk in your doing so... assuming you aren't an idiot. This is the same thought process the Devs came to when they added this feature yet for years now at least one person has to add this thread every single day. For people new to any level mission, they face the possibility of losing their ship. Hell, sometimes things just go wrong for a person - they aggro the whole room - they get scrammed - etc, etc. Sure, with some SP and a clue - you greatly reduce the risk... but for a lot of the folks out there, they have risk. Quote: A) Read the Thread histories before posting B) Stop being greedy! A) It is still an issue. B) Stop being an idiot. You want... A) Zero Risk ISK Even pirates face risk in pirating. Even ore thieves face risk in stealing. Salvagers define wussy.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:52:00 - [72] Edited by: Kel Nissa on 09/06/2009 23:52:49 Quote: You want... 1) LP for running mish 2) Bounties for running mish 3) Rewards for running mish 4) Bonus for running mish 5) Loot for running mish 6) Minerals for reprocessing the loot that sucks while your running mish 7) The salvage for running mish Personally im heading for 8) some fun during missions But probably thats the reason why i think that missions are way to easy currently. But hey thats another story. Okay maybe in a stright forward variation: I am against ninjas even without the rewarding issue.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 03:39:00 - [73] Risk Vs Reward. Rats can pop the mission runner. Low risk of that happening but there is still a risk. Ninja won't get agro'd by rats, no kill rights for the mission runner. Zero risk. None. Solution to zero risk enterprise. Impliment target shifting capabilities based on the time something is on the grid. The rats will go after the fresh wave of drones, the ninja, the support fleet you've rustled up to help... whatever. The ninja now has a risk associated with their activites. Done.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.06.10 05:07:00 - [74] Go drown your tears in the bathroom on your navy ravens. Why are high sec mission runners the biggest bunch of crybabies in eve? "OMG my salvage!!" How about this. Leave high sec. Let your balls drop. Then you won't be so worried about it.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 05:46:00 - [75] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 05:46:30 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Ninja won't get agro'd by rats, [snip]. Zero risk. None. Incorrect. This can happen - it has happened to me. When it does happen you have to act fairly fast as salvagers typically are in small, tankless craft which are likely to get popped fast.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.10 08:46:00 - [76] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 10/06/2009 08:56:51 Originally by: Kel Nissa Its just like real live. There are laws. ... The real funny thing is the mind of some person defending the current law. Its something like "CCP told us" - this means that im right -> haha (think about a little child making some grimace) -> got permission to do everything i want haha! <sarkasm="off"> furhter, there is no logical reason for giving you the exclusive right to salvage since the wreck is actually not YOURS but of the NPC corp. Not the salvage mechanics are flawed but the loot mechanics, actually the loot has to be free for all too like salvage because you're STEALING IT FROM THE NPC! Does not matter if you blew it or somebody else... Originally by: Deryk Blacke Quote: You should not get private salvaging rights because: A) The space does not belong to you, it is not an instance it is still in the space of the faction, you don't make the rules there. Who made the wreck? some NPC production facilty made the ship, you have just wrecked it which would hardly help argumenting a swap of the ownership. PvP wrecking mechanics are correct, the ownership for wrecks is kept by the player who owned the wrecked ship. Originally by: Deryk Blacke If they want it so that anybody can salvage, then anybody should be able to tractor - attack, etc. Cargo should drop separate from the wreck. yes, because the loot mechanics are broken. Actually, the wrecker as the salvager should both get flagged to the NPC corp, resulting in a free for all mechanics for the loot AND salvage. CCP please fix it, make the NPC-loot FFA like salvage!
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:10:00 - [77] Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 10/06/2009 16:13:08 Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 05:46:30 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Ninja won't get agro'd by rats, [snip]. Zero risk. None. Incorrect. This can happen - it has happened to me. When it does happen you have to act fairly fast as salvagers typically are in small, tankless craft which are likely to get popped fast. I'll have to take your word for it, I've yet to see rats target swap and attack the ninja. Not that I'm whining about Ninja's, as half the time they at least answer a convo and I use them as scouts for cap boosters (I'm usually just after the standings and/or look at the pretty explosions); which works in both out favours. I keep tanking, they keep looting. Other than the one that gave the RAWR response and was prompty pop'd by a LCO detonating like a SB.... Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Go drown your tears in the bathroom on your navy ravens. Why are high sec mission runners the biggest bunch of crybabies in eve? "OMG my salvage!!" How about this. Leave high sec. Let your balls drop. Then you won't be so worried about it. Have you see the captains head on a Raven? Dear god, the Caldari build some fine ships but creature comforts are not part of the spec. I'll go emorage in the station facilites thank you very much. I've been to low sec. I have no balls to drop. I'm not worried about it (see above). But what's the big attraction of low sec? 0.0 I can somewhat understand... low sec needs fiddling with IMHO.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:29:00 - [78] Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :)
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:38:00 - [79] there is a greate ninja guide: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=733552
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:46:00 - [80] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :) Hold on. I give a reasonable answer, to a reasonable response. I'm the PvE person here, the "carebear" if you wish and I'm being throughly polite and considering both sides of the argument. You, waltz in here and in your opening scentance start throwing insults ( "crybaby carebear" ) around; yet apparently it is me and mine that are whining. I put it to you sir that you need a dose of STFU, your mother should of beaten some manners in to you and further more all those of you posting similar things time and time again whilst some of us attempt to figure out how this mechanic can either be fixed or tweaked to best serve both parities simply makes the entire PvP/anti-PvE camp of EVE appear to be a large collection of crying infants bawling that their favorite rattle has fallen out the pram.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:49:00 - [81] CRY cry CRY cry cry CRY CRY cry CRY.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:52:00 - [82] Originally by: Gin G CRY cry CRY cry cry CRY CRY cry CRY. I stand by my previous comment. Your rattle. You can't have it anymore. It's mine.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:38:00 - [83] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :) Hold on. I give a reasonable answer, to a reasonable response. I'm the PvE person here, the "carebear" if you wish and I'm being throughly polite and considering both sides of the argument. You, waltz in here and in your opening scentance start throwing insults ( "crybaby carebear" ) around; yet apparently it is me and mine that are whining. I put it to you sir that you need a dose of STFU, your mother should of beaten some manners in to you and further more all those of you posting similar things time and time again whilst some of us attempt to figure out how this mechanic can either be fixed or tweaked to best serve both parities simply makes the entire PvP/anti-PvE camp of EVE appear to be a large collection of crying infants bawling that their favorite rattle has fallen out the pram. In my opinion all those who have made QQ threads about ninja slaving are crybaby carebears. There are already ways in game to prevent salvage from being taken. So there is nothing to tweak or fix. Except for maybe the carebears.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:43:00 - [84] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 17:44:43 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash I'll have to take your word for it, I've yet to see rats target swap and attack the ninja. Not that I'm whining about Ninja's, as half the time they at least answer a convo and I use them as scouts for cap boosters (I'm usually just after the standings and/or look at the pretty explosions); which works in both out favours. I keep tanking, they keep looting. Other than the one that gave the RAWR response and was prompty pop'd by a LCO detonating like a SB.... Gave me a bit of a shock when it happened too! I suspect that most ninjas will respond to a convo, and may even offer to split any loot as you go along if you fleet up and share bounty as well. A nasty few may either tell you where to go (so I would blow up the salvage if I were you) or may even take the fleet offer and then try to leave without giving you any cash for the salvage - I'd consider a wardec for those evil buggers, and maybe even posting about them in C&P as a new scam. Quote: Have you see the captains head on a Raven? Dear god, the Caldari build some fine ships but creature comforts are not part of the spec. I'll go emorage in the station facilites thank you very much. I've been to low sec. I have no balls to drop. I'm not worried about it (see above). But what's the big attraction of low sec? 0.0 I can somewhat understand... low sec needs fiddling with IMHO. Lowsec/0.0 - either way you get to pop the ninja if that is your wish. I realise not everyone wants to do so, but for those that do, head that way.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:50:00 - [85] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 10/06/2009 16:30:22 See all these crybaby carebear threads leads me to believe that there must be a lot of ISK to be made from this profession. Already have a covert ops prober. Going to get a salvage boat right after work. :) Hold on. I give a reasonable answer, to a reasonable response. I'm the PvE person here, the "carebear" if you wish and I'm being throughly polite and considering both sides of the argument. You, waltz in here and in your opening scentance start throwing insults ( "crybaby carebear" ) around; yet apparently it is me and mine that are whining. I put it to you sir that you need a dose of STFU, your mother should of beaten some manners in to you and further more all those of you posting similar things time and time again whilst some of us attempt to figure out how this mechanic can either be fixed or tweaked to best serve both parities simply makes the entire PvP/anti-PvE camp of EVE appear to be a large collection of crying infants bawling that their favorite rattle has fallen out the pram. In my opinion all those who have made QQ threads about ninja slaving are crybaby carebears. There are already ways in game to prevent salvage from being taken. So there is nothing to tweak or fix. Except for maybe the carebears. If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? Indeed if there is nothing to be tweaked or fixed then why have you posted in support of a ship with a role bonus to salvaging? Obviously something is missing and/or wrong. That requires an unfortunate dialouge between the two biggest, mutual enemies of EVE: PvE and PvP players in order to reach a mutually agreeable solution. I would also point out that if you need a CovOps ship (with or without rigs) to find a mission runner then you are doing it exceptionally wrong. A T1 frigate can do it just as fast if the person running the probes has sufficient skill and experience.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:59:00 - [86] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? Indeed if there is nothing to be tweaked or fixed then why have you posted in support of a ship with a role bonus to salvaging? Obviously something is missing and/or wrong. That requires an unfortunate dialouge between the two biggest, mutual enemies of EVE: PvE and PvP players in order to reach a mutually agreeable solution. There are many threads about it because this does bring so-called PvE players into conflict with PvP players. I say "so-called" because this is an MMO - there is no such thing as pure PvE in Eve. The PvE players don't like that the PvP players can ruin (take part) in their (in everyone's) game and they feel that the PvP players are stealing (taking) their (anyone's) salvage. I feel this is a misconception from the so-called PvE community of Eve. Quote: I would also point out that if you need a CovOps ship (with or without rigs) to find a mission runner then you are doing it exceptionally wrong. A T1 frigate can do it just as fast if the person running the probes has sufficient skill and experience. True, but the CovOps bonuses make it faster and easier and also allow you to cloak on entry, reducing the chance of you getting aggro from an unaggroed group (assuming you stay outside 2km).
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 17:44:43 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash I'll have to take your word for it, I've yet to see rats target swap and attack the ninja. Not that I'm whining about Ninja's, as half the time they at least answer a convo and I use them as scouts for cap boosters (I'm usually just after the standings and/or look at the pretty explosions); which works in both out favours. I keep tanking, they keep looting. Other than the one that gave the RAWR response and was prompty pop'd by a LCO detonating like a SB.... Gave me a bit of a shock when it happened too! I suspect that most ninjas will respond to a convo, and may even offer to split any loot as you go along if you fleet up and share bounty as well. A nasty few may either tell you where to go (so I would blow up the salvage if I were you) or may even take the fleet offer and then try to leave without giving you any cash for the salvage - I'd consider a wardec for those evil buggers, and maybe even posting about them in C&P as a new scam. It is something I make sure to point out to new players. The vast majority of players in EVE are reasonably polite despite what they've read on the forums. Had plenty of Ninja's come along and get a plesant surprise when I let them loose without what I guess is the usual abuse? shrugs Curiously, I would have warned the RAWR person out of the mission until I'd popped all the LCO's and told them when it was safe to come in and salvage... if they had been civil. Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 10/06/2009 17:44:43 Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Have you see the captains head on a Raven? Dear god, the Caldari build some fine ships but creature comforts are not part of the spec. I'll go emorage in the station facilites thank you very much. I've been to low sec. I have no balls to drop. I'm not worried about it (see above). But what's the big attraction of low sec? 0.0 I can somewhat understand... low sec needs fiddling with IMHO. Lowsec/0.0 - either way you get to pop the ninja if that is your wish. I realise not everyone wants to do so, but for those that do, head that way. I like my sec rating but yeah I see where your comming from on that one. To be fair, I looted someones Blockade the other night as they were just in the mood to watch explosions; the amount of money I dragged out of the wrecks was nowhere equal to the ship bounties. Then again Serpentis wrecks have long needed a bit of love in that department. The salvage is a nice gravy on top of everything else sure, but I do have to wonder if as things go if its really a viable profession; my local prices have gone through the floor for all the common forms of it.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:04:00 - [88] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? 900 billion flies like eating **** so it must be magnificent food eh? I guess it would be alright to force you to eat it as well then.
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:07:00 - [89] Why is ninja salvaging so bad? ---> Because the wreck is mine -----> Why do you want the salvage? -------> So I can sell it for isk -----> greeeed
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:11:00 - [90] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken?? The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:22:00 - [91] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? Indeed if there is nothing to be tweaked or fixed then why have you posted in support of a ship with a role bonus to salvaging? Obviously something is missing and/or wrong. That requires an unfortunate dialouge between the two biggest, mutual enemies of EVE: PvE and PvP players in order to reach a mutually agreeable solution. I would also point out that if you need a CovOps ship (with or without rigs) to find a mission runner then you are doing it exceptionally wrong. A T1 frigate can do it just as fast if the person running the probes has sufficient skill and experience. Ever seen a competent salvager at work? They use Coercers fitted with 4 salvage, 4 tractor beams, 4 cargo expander 2 and an after burner. They can loot and salvage at an amazing rate. They don't need ship bonuses because they've trained their salvaging skill to a high level. Just as anyone else can. So there is no need to make changes to any of the ships. I don't need a covert ops frigate to find mission runner. I just happen to own one.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken?? The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage. Aye, they should remove the flagging for looting as well.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:28:00 - [93] Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken?? The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage. To be honest my original take on the problem was a ninja has zero risk attached. As that's been corrected by someone in this very thread I have no real issue with ninja salvaging. I have issue with the attitude of some ninja's... but that person got what they deserved for it. Now, as for the loot mechanics being broken I am seriously surprised nobody has started a multitude of threads about this because quite frankly... it is. I can enter a drone mission, fill my salvage destroyers hold with minerals worth far more than any bounty could ever be AND assuming I've not picked up an assistant along the way point a salvager at them and yoink out trit bars, melted cap banks and other highly valuable salvage. It smacks utterly of double bubble. Meanwhile I can go in to a Serpentis based mission, get the bounties which may or may not be all that good unless its Assault or Blockade which have silly amounts of NPC's in tem, yet the loot and salvage is utter rubbish. CCP need to take a long hard look at it. And yes, this is a mission runner complaining that the missions, loot & salvage tables need a massive nerfbat on them. And I do point out in FNA corp chat: The only thing which is reserved for you is a shiny new clone, a velator and 1 chunk of trit. Once it's explained to them and they're ready for the shock of a ninja appearing they're a-ok with it. And yeah, I am poking Izzy with a stick. Everyone knows carebear ships are fueled by the gnashed teeth of PvPers
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:37:00 - [94] I'm fine w/ ninja-salvaging. As CCP says themselves, working as intended. Last time I checked, it seems to be centralized in the most popular of mission hubs (duh!). So, if you don't want to deal with it, just go mission somewhere else. There are more agents. I missioned in Motsu for a while. Many ninja-salvagers. Had 2 missions salvaged from me, so I left for another agent. Never had it happen again. Either take the heat, or get out of the kitchen.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 18:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash If salvaging as a mechanic is fine. Why then good sir are there so many threads about it? maybe because the NPC loot mechanics are broken?? The noobs think if the loot is reserved for them (for some odd reason) the same MUST apply for the salvage. Aye, they should remove the flagging for looting as well. Some and some. If you're in a fleet I think it should be surpressed for all members of the fleet regardless of NPC corp or not; yes you still get flagged in the starter corps regardless... irksome during training ops. But if you're not in a fleet with the killer, you should still get flagged.
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.10 20:55:00 - [96] Edited by: Verys on 10/06/2009 20:56:37 Flagging of loot stealing is fine but flagging of salvaging would not. "Why?" do you ask? Well there is simple logic behind it. Modules are worth money and since they are spoils of battle/war they belong to you and you get them. If someone steals a reward belonging to you it is theft. Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. It is trash, space dust, rubbish. It is a piece of floating debris. You can't do much with a wreck unless you have specialized equipment (the salvage module). This means that only this way a wreck is actually useful as you get salvage parts from salvaging from a wreck. It's just junk until somebody cleans it up, and nobody likes junk. And all this getting angry about people coming in "cough" your "cough" mission and stealing space junk is beyond me. To me this seems like pure greed and that is if LVL 4's didn't already pay out enough at so little risk (yes little you can do them semi-afk or afk with a domi). The only time LVL 4's are hard is if you have just been flying a battleship and skipped the entire BC class or unless you stroll in the Extravaganza bonus room unprepared. And as a closure you have the advantage as the wreck-maker. You have the tractor beam option so you can get those wrecks extra fast and a salvage slot on most ships if that isn't an advantage over a ninja salvager then I don't know what is.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.10 21:08:00 - [97] Originally by: Verys And all this getting angry about people coming in "cough" your "cough" mission. It is worth keeping in mind that a great many people are not used to the concept of MMO's or they've played one with "private instancing" as opposed to EVE's oddbod "public instancing" system. Yes I have had one new player wonder if the people in corp chat are, in fact, humans. And yes I've had to deal with more than one WoW player getting upset over the differences in instancing. Now, perhaps as part of the improved new player experience we need to explain these differences somehow. Because quite frankly I can't probe down every non-ALT FNAer in order to demonstrate this. Remove the mindset of "my mission" and you also loose "my slavage".
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.10 22:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash It is worth keeping in mind that a great many people are not used to the concept of MMO's or they've played one with "private instancing" as opposed to EVE's oddbod "public instancing" system. Yes I have had one new player wonder if the people in corp chat are, in fact, humans. And yes I've had to deal with more than one WoW player getting upset over the differences in instancing. Now, perhaps as part of the improved new player experience we need to explain these differences somehow. Because quite frankly I can't probe down every non-ALT FNAer in order to demonstrate this. Remove the mindset of "my mission" and you also loose "my slavage". All very true, but it is also worth remembering that this is Eve, not other MMOs. Ninja salvaging is a recognised game mechanic and those of us who do it will continue to do so until CCP say it's not possible.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.06.10 22:53:00 - [99] And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.11 02:58:00 - [100] Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 11/06/2009 03:02:12 Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash It is worth keeping in mind that a great many people are not used to the concept of MMO's or they've played one with "private instancing" as opposed to EVE's oddbod "public instancing" system. Yes I have had one new player wonder if the people in corp chat are, in fact, humans. And yes I've had to deal with more than one WoW player getting upset over the differences in instancing. Now, perhaps as part of the improved new player experience we need to explain these differences somehow. Because quite frankly I can't probe down every non-ALT FNAer in order to demonstrate this. Remove the mindset of "my mission" and you also loose "my slavage". All very true, but it is also worth remembering that this is Eve, not other MMOs. Ninja salvaging is a recognised game mechanic and those of us who do it will continue to do so until CCP say it's not possible. Absolutley and knowing that their is a risk attached to doing so well, I'm good as well. Perhaps some mission injected in to the tutorials where a scripted NPC that appears as a player on the overview appears, does 'something' (salvage, kills a rat, whatever) with the message appearing in the window of "This can happen for real, this is what makes EVE different". After all if the mechanic isn't broken, then it points to a lack of knowledge so it's the new player experience that's broken. Hopefully with that being the case it should be something quite simple for CCP to fix and the torrent of threads will, eventually, stop. Originally by: Kel Nissa And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers. Actually only the 1.0 starter systems (1.0 sec rating, one station) are 100% safe zones. I'm assuming anyone caught Ninjaing an actual, real noob in their starter ship in such a system would have a GM getting the hump with them in short order; same as can flipping them. The second you go outside of that starter system... fair game. High sec is supposed to be safer, not 100% safe.
Uronksur Suth Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.11 03:19:00 - [101] Originally by: Kloiex I want to talk about the very irritating ninja salvaging.... In no way do i find it ok to salvage someones wrecks that they worked on and earned, salvaging someones wrecks should be an illegal act in high sec most of the money from missions comes from salvaging and for someone to be able to take you're profit away from you without you being able to atleast blast them into space dust is very irritating. Warning: It would be horrible to only give us kill right scause they could come in something better and bigger than us. Giving us kill rights would not stop this "bussiness" at all. I don't see the problem really. If I warp into a belt, and see a bunch of npc wrecks floating around, why not? Of course, if the player is already there salvaging them, I wouldn't. But if they warp out leaving an unsalvaged and unlooted wreck just drifting there because they're too lazy or just don't care I don't see any reason not to. If anything, property rights on wrecks should lapse after 10 minutes or log out. Its always irritating to be warned that you are technically stealing from someone who isn't even online. And as for it being "horrible" to "only give us kill rights".... what more do you want?... Being allowed by the police to go vigilante and kill someone over loot theft is already absurd, if you think about it. This game is meant to be realistic, pirates and scammers exist and are endorsed by CCP. If CCP allows large scale sabotage like what happened to the Ubiqua Seraph corp last year, 700 billion ISK in damage, they certainly aren't going to intervene here. And finally, for everyone who seems to think High-sec is supposed to be all hugs and giggles: Your in SPACE. High-sec is "safe" only in comparison to low-sec. And if I warp into a belt, see several wrecks with no one else around, I'll salvage them, and if the person with looting rights isn't in the system, I'll assume they don't care (correctly, since they just left it there) and go ahead and loot it.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.06.11 06:37:00 - [102] Originally by: Kel Nissa And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers. Protect to a degree. Hisec is not totally secure, or some sort of PvE zone, nor should it be.
Uronksur Suth Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.11 06:57:00 - [103] Since everyone seems to agree, I'd like to point out that mission pay is relatively low because your the idea is probably that the loot and salvage is PART of your reward. Not to mention a lot of mission locations just happen to be surrounded by large Veldspar asteroids. If you have an hour and a half to complete the mission with the time bonus, finish it in 5 minutes, then rush back and complete it without bothering to loot, salvage and possibly top off your cargohold with some ore, complaining that you aren't making much is a little absurd. That being said, CCP could bump up the payout. Slightly.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.11 11:41:00 - [104] Originally by: Verys Flagging of loot stealing is fine but flagging of salvaging would not. "Why?" do you ask? Well there is simple logic behind it. Modules are worth money and since they are spoils of battle/war they belong to you and you get them. If someone steals a reward belonging to you it is theft. they belong to them?? This is exactly the point I think is broken. You wrecked a ship but there is no reason for the ownership change, this logic does not apply for player ships but for NPC ships for some odd reason. Originally by: Verys Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. this is wrong, look into the marked, the stuff is worth a lot of ISK but this has nothing to do with its ownership, completely another question. The stuff may figure as a reward, however you have to grab it quickly before others do.
Mohenna	Posted - 2009.06.11 13:06:00 - [105] PRISM IS THE BEST
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.11 14:06:00 - [106] Originally by: Verys Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. this is wrong, look into the marked, the stuff is worth a lot of ISK but this has nothing to do with its ownership, completely another question. The stuff may figure as a reward, however you have to grab it quickly before others do. Seriously learn to read my entire argument Wrecks on the other hand are worth completely worthless. It is trash, space dust, rubbish. It is a piece of floating debris. You can't do much with a wreck unless you have specialized equipment (the salvage module). This means that only this way a wreck is actually useful as you get salvage parts from salvaging from a wreck. It's just junk until somebody cleans it up, and nobody likes junk. Which means they are worthless unless you take a specialized piece of machinery (salvager) and salvage these components, without this piece of machinery wrecks are useless. This ends up on being that it is a profession as you need special types of machinery and special types of skills. Originally by: Uronksur Suth Since everyone seems to agree, I'd like to point out that mission pay is relatively low because your the idea is probably that the loot and salvage is PART of your reward. Not to mention a lot of mission locations just happen to be surrounded by large Veldspar asteroids. If you have an hour and a half to complete the mission with the time bonus, finish it in 5 minutes, then rush back and complete it without bothering to loot, salvage and possibly top off your cargohold with some ore, complaining that you aren't making much is a little absurd. That being said, CCP could bump up the payout. Slightly. No the pay is fine as most of the cash either comes from bounties with most pirate mission or tags with faction navy missions. This way (withouth the picking up modules or salvaging) you can already make 15 mil in complete safety as you don't need to leave the starter corp to do them. CCP should look into boosting low-sec more than boosting lvl 4's
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.06.11 14:27:00 - [107] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Risk Vs Reward. Rats can pop the mission runner. If he falls asleep at the keyboard. Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Ninja won't get agro'd by rats Mission runner leaves mission and Super Ninja Dude gets the agro. Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash no kill rights for the mission runner War dec the Super Ninja Dude. Most ninja salvagers I know belong to player corporation
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.11 16:51:00 - [108] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal War dec the Super Ninja Dude. Most ninja salvagers I know belong to player corporation But for some reason most ratters who whine about it don't because it provides them immunity to wardec's
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.06.12 04:07:00 - [109] Yup, there certainly is no problem here. No one ever brings this topic up. Ever.
Objulen Caldari Black Serpent Technologies Aggression.	Posted - 2009.06.12 06:31:00 - [110] Edited by: Objulen on 12/06/2009 06:31:03 To quote an old internet adage: less QQ, more pew pew. Hire mercs and/or wardeck the guys doing it. Eve is built to allow for player hostilities, and the system already incorporates the appropriate answers. If you're not in a position to prevent said salvage ganking, then it's in your best interests to change that by joining a corporation that can, founding your own, avoiding the salvage gankers, and/or hiring guns to do the job for you.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.12 10:34:00 - [111] Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/06/2009 10:34:52 Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Yup, there certainly is no problem here. No one ever brings this topic up. Ever. sure, there is a problem. With the NPC loot mechanics. The noobs think because the loot is "theirs", the salvage has to be also. Fix the loot mechanics, like it is for player ships already(loot/salvage owhership kept by NPC), and the whine would stop.
ninjaholic Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.06.12 12:46:00 - [112] This Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. >>> SUPPORT EVE's OWN IN-GAME FIGHT RECORD TOOL! <<<
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.12 13:09:00 - [113] Edited by: Karentaki on 12/06/2009 13:12:03 Originally by: Kloiex WAAARRRGGGBBLLLEEE!!! Hi, please STFU. Thanks. I hear the people in here would like to hear about your problems though. EDIT: To comply with the rules more, I wish to explain to you that this thread has been posted at least 100 times. In every case 90% of the playerbase have told you why you are idiots, but yet you continue to cry. Please just quit and give me your stuff.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.06.12 13:13:00 - [114] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Salvaging introduced a new means of theft without repercussions. The salvage however, is not yours until it is inside your cargohold. Thus, it is not theft.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2009.06.13 01:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Kel Nissa And its also worth to remember that the conflict occours in highsec which is meant to protect carebears / newcomers. No. It is safe space.Its controlled space. But it is not 100% safe for carebears / newcomer space.
Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.06.22 07:34:00 - [116] Hi! Thanks for reopening this topic every few days. It gives me and my corpmates great laughs to see people cry and whine about it, and then CCP to say "no problem here!". This was at least 50% of why I became a ninja salvager. Keep it comin'!
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.22 21:18:00 - [117] Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 12/06/2009 10:34:52 Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Yup, there certainly is no problem here. No one ever brings this topic up. Ever. sure, there is a problem. With the NPC loot mechanics. The noobs think because the loot is "theirs", the salvage has to be also. Fix the loot mechanics, like it is for player ships already(loot/salvage owhership kept by NPC), and the whine would stop. There is a thread somewhere, started by myself, about updating the NPE to remove this issue. You might want to bump it and/or add coments.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.06.22 21:44:00 - [118] Originally by: Khalia Nestune Hi! Thanks for reopening this topic every few days. It gives me and my corpmates great laughs to see people cry and whine about it, and then CCP to say "no problem here!". This was at least 50% of why I became a ninja salvager. Keep it comin'! ^^Hooray for thread necromancy. I will agree that this thread is a hilarious whine though
Alderon Mizuchi Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.06.23 07:46:00 - [119] This thread makes me laugh. The best part is that whenever a topic like this is made, I see more and more people start getting into ninja salvaging, which just makes the tears here all the more sweet.
MacMasters	Posted - 2009.06.23 10:01:00 - [120] good ninja salvaging guide. thanks
Kandarus Minmatar Crvena Zora	Posted - 2009.06.23 19:25:00 - [121] Fit ECCM = End Topic.
Riedlim	Posted - 2009.06.24 14:27:00 - [122] Originally by: Deryk Blacke Originally by: CCP Prism X Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. Fail CCP is fail CCP. It is not just about the isk. It is about the time. The person fragged that NPC. Before salvaging, they were relatively assured the plunder of their kill. The reward for their time. Salvaging introduced a new means of theft without repercussions. If somebody is spending their time mining, and somebody flips their can - they are flagged. The person running the mission took on a risk for their reward. If the person wants to salvage another's kill, give them some risk for their reward. THAT is essentially what it does boil down to. haha, this from the guy who got concorded when he shot at me whilst I was salvaging his precious mission. Nice lootz in yoru wreck by the way. Thank you.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.06.24 16:01:00 - [123] Originally by: Riedlim haha, this from the guy who got concorded when he shot at me whilst I was salvaging his precious mission. Nice lootz in yoru wreck by the way. Thank you. lolz firstly, he ignores CCP intended mechanics, secondly he gets pwned by concord because of lack of knowledge concerning concord mechanics?? I would call such one as total noob :))
Jastal	Posted - 2009.06.27 00:21:00 - [124] My thoughts on Ninja Salvagers... They are people who lack the skills to PVP in low sec, and aren't smart enough to read the Eve-survival guide to tank a level 4 mission solo on their own. Usually most are a bunch of wanna-be pvp'ers that cant cut it, So they pick on carebear corps. Me, I want to be able to use a Webber on the Ninja Salvager without it being considered a dangerous act. Ive tried warping out of missions and hoped the room aggro's on them. But some of them started to get smart and use BC's now. You come back to your mission only to find that they are tanking your mission and salvaging the wrecks. You cant War Dec most of ninja salvagers, since a lot are in NPC corps half of the time. Or are a single man corp which is just a waste of isk to War Dec. Easiest solution is make Stasis Webbers not an act of aggression. Warp scramblers should still be an act of aggression since it prevent fleeing out. Stasis Webbers only slow them down. Since the Ninja cant use tractor beams and have to fly within 5000 meters or less of the wreck. If you were just allow to web the ninja and force them crawling across space towards the wrecks, they hopefully might get the point would get the point and bugger off. I left Caldari Space because of Ninja Salvagers, I had to stop running Amarr Navy missions out in Dabrid, and Mani for the same reason. Ive read CCP opinion on the matter. I can understand it. But there should till be a way of discouraging it, aside from warping out, and hoping the level 4 mission you just left blows them sky high. I think CCP should remove Dangerous Act of Aggression from Stasis Webbers, and allow us to lock down the speeds of the ninja salvager, without getting Concorded over it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.06.27 01:38:00 - [125] Quote: They are people who lack the skills to PVP in low sec, Of course. We don't PVP in lowsec much, though. We prefer wormhole space Quote: and aren't smart enough to read the Eve-survival guide to tank a level 4 mission solo on their own. Why the hell would we want to take part in the most boring "Profession" in EVE? Quote: Usually most are a bunch of wanna-be pvp'ers that cant cut it, So they pick on carebear corps. Quote: Me, I want to be able to use a Webber on the Ninja Salvager without it being considered a dangerous act. and I want to be able to use my gank tempest on your missionship without it drawing CONCORD aggression. Sadly, hisec has rules. Quote: Ive tried warping out of missions and hoped the room aggro's on them. But some of them started to get smart and use BC's now. You come back to your mission only to find that they are tanking your mission and salvaging the wrecks. Why the hell would anyone do that in a BC? Smart ninjas use frigates/inties/fast cruisers (for looting) and use speed to tank. Quote: You cant War Dec most of ninja salvagers, since a lot are in NPC corps half of the time. Or are a single man corp which is just a waste of isk to War Dec. Wardec us. We have an entire corp full of wannabe PVPers who can't cut it in lowsec for you to blow up. Quote: Easiest solution is make Stasis Webbers not an act of aggression. ...I hope you're not really suggesting that. How do you feel about slowboating between mission gates while triple webbed by ninjas? Quote: But there should till be a way of discouraging it, aside from warping out, and hoping the level 4 mission you just left blows them sky high. The salvage isn't yours. Ninjaing already has more counters than most lawful hisec professions...Mining can only really be countered by suicide ganking. If you want to be able to stop ninjas, then mission in lowsec. Problem solved.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.27 02:14:00 - [126] heres a question how many people are thinking about/have taken up ninja salvaging after reading this/a thread like this
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.06.27 02:40:00 - [127] Originally by: Gin G heres a question how many people are thinking about/have taken up ninja salvaging after reading this/a thread like this It's funny. I find that Suddenly Ninjas gets a wave of applications whenever there's a threadnaught about ninjasalvaging.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.06.27 05:27:00 - [128] As a 0.0 pilot I find these threads amazing. I intentionally fly in space that doesn't restrict my behavior because of this nonsense. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Ronan Connor	Posted - 2009.06.27 08:06:00 - [129] Originally by: Gin G heres a question how many people are thinking about/have taken up ninja salvaging after reading this/a thread like this signed! Me I am mostly mining. Currently I get some last fine tuning done (industry ship 5 and so). But afterwards I seriously think about starting salvaging. I already have salvaging 5 and 3-4 astrometric skills. All the whining about space debree sucks. A wreck is nothing more but a asteroid. Everybody can come around and mine it before your eyes. You found a belt full of kernite? It sucks as well if you startet 5 min ago and suddenly an orca and 2 hulk come around... Thats the game - live with it.
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.06.27 09:35:00 - [130] ... /me starts singing "The babies on the (Inter)bus go whaa whaa whaa..."
Rip Minner	Posted - 2009.06.27 09:59:00 - [131] Personly I dont know why people cry so much about this. The main reason we did not what nija salvaging is becouse the price of salvage would drop. Guess what it already did. So the more they do it the less its worth. I love geting my rigs cheaper and cheaper keep up the good work guys :)
MacMasters	Posted - 2009.06.27 13:47:00 - [132] Noun Singular salvage Plural salvages salvage (plural salvages) 1. the rescue of a ship, its crew or its cargo from a hazardous situation... (ie, its been blown the hell up and its floating in the middle of nowhere) ok, so in game the ship wreck is the rat's property. in this respect ANY player salvaging is (by your understanding) stealing from its "rightful owner". however, since the rat is dead the wreck belongs to whoever gets to it first. ccp have called the ingame practice "salvaging" to reflect this. end of story.
CKFunkymoped Minmatar Rogue Tribe Productions New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.06.28 07:50:00 - [133] as a mission runner myself i see ninja salvaging part of the game. if they can scan you down fast enough to do this then kudos to them. the only thing i think what would make it a bit more interesting would be to have sleeper style npc behaviour what i mean by this is that if multiple people are in a mission area the npcs can change targets. this would bring back the term ninja to me and you would have to get in and out before they saw you. and if you leave a mission area unguarded then i have no sympathy for you. bookmarking a pace to come back to later is just lazy in my opinion. so what i say to all you ninja salvagers is this if you can then do. its like saying i am mining in this belt so noone else can come in if they do mine my rocks omg omg. come guys see common sense.
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:35:00 - [134] Originally by: Jastal My thoughts on Ninja Salvagers... They are people who lack the skills to PVP in low sec, and aren't smart enough to read the Eve-survival guide to tank a level 4 mission solo on their own. ... I think CCP should remove Dangerous Act of Aggression from Stasis Webbers, and allow us to lock down the speeds of the ninja salvager, without getting Concorded over it. Tanking a level 4 requires the cognitive skills of a goat, you are doing level 4 missions BECAUSE it is easy and risk free (since getting killed requires a special kind of ******). You have the nerve to sit there and slag off others that in 50% of cases are trying to bait you into a fight, and you call them "lacking skill". ROFL, take a look at the man in the mirror
Kessiaan Minmatar MicroFunks	Posted - 2009.06.28 17:44:00 - [135] Posting in another ninja salvaging thread. You know, when you think about CONCORD and missions it really doesn't make any sense. Why would CONCORD swoop the rescue if you get attacked by another player but not give a crap that 4,015 Serpentis BS are just hanging out in some 1.0 system? I say take away all CONCORD protection for people in mission sites - if you're in a mission it'd be effectively 0.0. Now when people invade your mission you can shoot them freely - not even any sec. status loss. What could be better?
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.28 18:06:00 - [136] Originally by: Kessiaan I say take away all CONCORD protection for people in mission sites - if you're in a mission it'd be effectively 0.0. Now when people invade your mission you can shoot them freely - not even any sec. status loss. What could be better? This would require to make it hard/impossible to find someone in a mission, otherwise mission runners are a sitting duck. Since it's impossible to 'make something hard' like probing someone out (max skills and allways find the guy), it would end up in making it impossible. I dont think it's a good idea till someone finds a way to balance it somehow.
Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.07 04:12:00 - [137] Originally by: Kessiaan I say take away all CONCORD protection for people in mission sites - if you're in a mission it'd be effectively 0.0. Now when people invade your mission you can shoot them freely - not even any sec. status loss. What could be better? Woot. I'll start my own corp when this happens - Suddenly Ganking All Level 1-3 Mission Runners.
Insa Rexion Minmatar Ray of Matar Assembly	Posted - 2009.07.07 07:02:00 - [138] Originally by: Khalia Nestune Originally by: Kessiaan I say take away all CONCORD protection for people in mission sites - if you're in a mission it'd be effectively 0.0. Now when people invade your mission you can shoot them freely - not even any sec. status loss. What could be better? Woot. I'll start my own corp when this happens - Suddenly Ganking All Level 1-3 Mission Runners. Heh... I'll have my alt put in a request to join well mannered ah*
Jint Hikaru Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.07.07 08:08:00 - [139] JUSTAL... do you even think about what you are typing???? Quote: I think CCP should remove Dangerous Act of Aggression from Stasis Webbers, and allow us to lock down the speeds of the ninja salvager, without getting Concorded over it. So what if the ninja-salvager comes in and webs you first??? You will be back on the forums crying for your mom. Did you even think about what greifing would be going on in Hi-Sec if anyone could web anyone???? ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Future Mutant	Posted - 2009.07.07 09:35:00 - [140] Originally by: CCP Prism X I have a habit of posting in these threads. See no reason to go against tradition. Sadly, I've already explained the whole shebang a couple of times already and have heard no discussions as to changing the ownership of salvage. Things are working as they were designed and I do believe we're quite happy about what the introduction of salvaging has done for us. So, there's nothing more to add. Except perhaps... Originally by: Ultranoia Salvaging, unlike mission-running, is a competitive profession. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is essentially what it does boil down to. Makes me wonder.. could changing all T1 loot in missions to more salvage drops make mission running a bit less of a droning repetition and even the playing field between the main professions (that does not include salvaging) a little bit. It would reduce the overflow of reprocessed T1 loot minerals, as well as the constant supply of low price T1 from mission drops (which are then resold at higher prices, probably back to the group selling them in the first place, creating the most profitable profession in EVE. Never understood why so many seem to think it's running L4s.) and possibly make running missions a bit more exciting as the choices you make impact your ISK generation more. Sounds all in all more EVE like to me tbh. But you can sleep easy. I don't make those decisions. So it's no more than my twisted thought. I would be so happy if this happened. Loot annoys me. Its heavy, takes multiple trips and it takes too long to squeeze every bit of isk i can out of it. Salvage on the other hand... So who could make this decision and can they be bribed with isk perhaps? I also have exotic dancers
Jdestars Stars Research systems Incorporation	Posted - 2009.07.07 11:45:00 - [141] To reduce the risk of seeing "salvager" in your missions some rules are imperative: -Drones must stay in drone bay , the drones are as lighthouses on the map and easily locatable with any exploration vessel ... maybe a change to do with this point -use some ECCM item and backup array for reduce chance of succesfull scan of your ship (use in your own salvager ship for exemple)
Shapely	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:46:00 - [142] The problem here is that some people start playing EVE without understanding that it is a PVP game, it is about killing and griefing other players. It is not like a traditional good verses evel MMO's where both sides are equal but diffrent. EVE is designed for everyone to be lawless, there is no benefit gained from being lawfull but many from being lawless. High security space exists so that people that havnÆt worked this out will be griefed by those that have until the people that donÆt want to PVP get angry enough to want to PVP or leave the game. If you donÆt want to PVP and just want to do missions then EVE is not designed for you and you will work this out and either start PVP'ing or leave the game. This salvaging mechanism probably results in more people leaving EVE than most other issues in the game but the game is not designed for those people so they should leave. I am not interested in PVP and without the mission griefing EVE would be an enjoyable game for me but EVE is not designed for me and like everyone else that complains about mission salvagers I need to leave and find a non-PVP version.
leich Amarr Knights of the Old Empire	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:54:00 - [143] Nija Salvage is geart. Best Mechanic ever. let me kill carebears i dont want your salage. I want you to agress me. you newb tears fuel my soul.
Chi Quan Bibkor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.07.07 15:00:00 - [144] Originally by: Jdestars To reduce the risk of seeing "salvager" in your missions some rules are imperative: -Drones must stay in drone bay , the drones are as lighthouses on the map and easily locatable with any exploration vessel ... maybe a change to do with this point -use some ECCM item and backup array for reduce chance of succesfull scan of your ship (use in your own salvager ship for exemple) and what do you do to the 20+ wrecks you just made? ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love
Robot Robot	Posted - 2009.07.07 16:07:00 - [145] Originally by: CCP Prism X Makes me wonder.. could changing all T1 loot in missions to more salvage drops make mission running a bit less of a droning repetition and even the playing field between the main professions (that does not include salvaging) a little bit. It would reduce the overflow of reprocessed T1 loot minerals, as well as the constant supply of low price T1 from mission drops (which are then resold at higher prices, probably back to the group selling them in the first place, creating the most profitable profession in EVE. Never understood why so many seem to think it's running L4s.) and possibly make running missions a bit more exciting as the choices you make impact your ISK generation more. Sounds all in all more EVE like to me tbh. But you can sleep easy. I don't make those decisions. So it's no more than my twisted thought. AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! YES!
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.07 17:00:00 - [146] Originally by: Jdestars To reduce the risk of seeing "salvager" in your missions some rules are imperative: -use some ECCM item and backup array for reduce chance of succesfull scan of your ship (use in your own salvager ship for exemple) ECCM helps in what way, Sir?? btw. the salvage FFA mechanic is fine, the loot ownership change is broken. There is no reason for ownership change of a pirated ship, see player wrecks loot mechanics where the ownership mechanic is properly implemented.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.07 17:41:00 - [147] Originally by: leich Nija Salvage is geart. Best Mechanic ever. let me kill carebears i dont want your salage. I want you to agress me. you newb tears fuel my soul. Its obvious that you are not interested into killing carebears. Otherwise you would use the current loot mechanic to reach your theoretic goal.
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.07 17:47:00 - [148] > and what do you do to the 20+ wrecks you just made? Hopefully everyone improves their skills to supress probeability. This will immideatly highlight an actually missing feature: The ability to find wrecks! You cant scan them. This is not in line with "salvaging(including ninja style) = profession"
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.07 18:01:00 - [149] you cant skill probing-immunity
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.07 18:23:00 - [150] You can increase the effort high enough to stop ninja-salvaging from being profitable.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.07 19:28:00 - [151] Originally by: Kel Nissa You can increase the effort high enough to stop ninja-salvaging from being profitable. lol no. Its 9 seconds for 1 scan more, at best...
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.07 20:11:00 - [152] Open your mind. ECCM is not the only option to reduce their profit.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.07 20:40:00 - [153] Depends. ECCM wont make it much harder to scan you out. A good wreck field can keep me busy for awhile, and it wont take me that much longer to scan you down. However, what it will do is make you stand out less. When I do a normal scan of Dodixie, I get a bunch of BS hits with ~50% signal strength and some marauders with ~100% or close to 100%. An ECCM will make you show up as about 25-35%, which wont tell me what ship you're flying and thus I'll probably just ignore it (you could be a noobship in midwarp for all I know). ECCM isn't really an inconvenience to the ninjasalvager. What it does do, however, is make you stand out less. Fitting ECCM will mean that most ninjas will not notice you and go for all the other shiny non-ECCM'd BS/marauders. Unlike 99.999% of suggestions made on this forum to counter ninjasalvagers, this one actually has some merit.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.07 21:12:00 - [154] would someone enlighten me how ECCM reduces the sig??? A look into the ECCM mod info reveals only a sensor strength bonus.
Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.09 00:45:00 - [155] sensor strength of the ship is directly related to how difficult it is for it to be found on scans.
James Dookan	Posted - 2009.07.10 05:09:00 - [156] I would like to see this generate a 5 minute agression timer. The cargo and wreck should belong to the mission runner. If your salvager cant pick it up within 5 mins then sure it should be fair game. There seems to be a double standard on this. 1, the wreck is free to anyone who wants it. 2, the wreck belongs to the mission puller if you tend to pop it. If I can get concorded for killing a wreck when I am in the fleet doing the missions, I don't see how a 5 min agression cooldown for ninja salvaging the wreck is all that hard to understand or request. Random people not involved in the mission can remove a wreck, but if people helping do the mission remove the wreck they can be shot??? Explain that logic to me please.
Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.07.10 07:18:00 - [157] Originally by: James Dookan I would like to see this generate a 5 minute agression timer. The cargo and wreck should belong to the mission runner. If your salvager cant pick it up within 5 mins then sure it should be fair game. There seems to be a double standard on this. 1, the wreck is free to anyone who wants it. 2, the wreck belongs to the mission puller if you tend to pop it. If I can get concorded for killing a wreck when I am in the fleet doing the missions, I don't see how a 5 min agression cooldown for ninja salvaging the wreck is all that hard to understand or request. Random people not involved in the mission can remove a wreck, but if people helping do the mission remove the wreck they can be shot??? Explain that logic to me please. It is because the contents (loot) of the wreck belongs to you and the salvage does not. However they are bundled into the same package which causes this misconception to arrise. Loot is yours, it always will be Salvage is fair game to all, and it always will be
Kel Nissa	Posted - 2009.07.10 16:26:00 - [158] Quote: Loot is yours, it always will be Salvage is fair game to all, and it always will be. Hard to ensure.
Nano Plague	Posted - 2009.09.30 16:56:00 - [159] Quote: how about you just learn its working like it should and quit crying about it over and over and over and over AND OVER and over and over again Working as originally designed yes, but "like it should"? well that is up for debate - which this is. People keep posting over and over and over again because they disagree with the current design. Why do you "cry" because people are stating their opinions? If you are tired of the post about this subject - don't waste your time reading them. Pretty simple actually. Oh wait, then YOU couldn't "cry" about things. Have a nice day!
AsheraII	Posted - 2009.09.30 17:16:00 - [160] Let's make ships spawn two physically seperate things when they're destroyed: a blingy treasure chest, which can only be looted by the one who destroyed the ship, and an ugly locked trashcan which can only be opened by people who have a key module attached to their ship, regardless whether they shot the ship at all or not. Admit it, the carebear type of killer will still always claim that both things "belong to him". No matter if the opposite of his assumption is shown in big bright blingy red words for ten minutes every time he logs into the game.
Altie McName	Posted - 2009.09.30 17:19:00 - [161] Originally by: Nano Plague Have a nice day! Having an opinion and denying the truth, thus being wrong, are two different things

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