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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
CornerStoner
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Posted - 2009.07.15 06:38:00 -
[91]
Stop comparing EVE markets to RL markets. ItÆs ridiculous, irrational and irritating. YouÆre complaining about making extra ISK via the current market mechanics! (At least I think thatÆs your point...reading your posts is akin to staring at the sun.)
Is it æjustÆ that someone can suicide gank your hauler in Jita? I donÆt see you calling that a bug.
Consider this:
I need 10 million units of item A. The first 5 lowest sell orders only have quantities of 5 thousand or so. The 6th lowest sell order has a quantity of 9 million available. I donÆt much care if I pay 1000ISK more per unitàIÆd rather have the convenience of buying from 2 orders rather than 6. You get a windfall because I value my time more than ISK (or IÆm just lazy). Everyone sells their product and I leave as a happy customer. WhatÆs the problem?
I can solve your problem: Stop placing sell orders and sell only to buy orders.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.15 08:36:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/07/2009 08:42:45
 Originally by: CornerStoner
Stop comparing EVE markets to RL markets. ItÆs ridiculous, irrational and irritating.
Despite that you have said that you do not care about how much you pay, at which point nothing more needs to be said, allow me to ask you a question:
Why is it that a rookie ship cannot produce an occasional hit of 15000 points of damage?
I tell you why. Because we consider it to be physically impossible. Just like one cannot blow up a nuclear power plant only by shooting at it with a 9mm pistol. Yet we are only moving pixels across a screen.
Do not tell me that it is ridiculous, irrational and irritating to compare EVE's market to the real world. The rules of the real world we apply to EVE is what makes EVE fun. Only where it becomes a futuristic space simulation do we use science fiction to explain what cannot be explained.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Fekka
Lumberjack Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.15 11:24:00 -
[93]
Just consider the market in EvE a sience fiction thing too then. Maybe a market works just better like it is in EvE and why is just beyond our comprehension. Maybe you will understand in 500 years. Please let me know then.
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Drab Cane
Mining Emporium inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.15 22:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Whitehound
Why does the market honour a buyer's free will when it comes to his money, but ignores it when it comes to the item?
The market is not a human being and has no conscience. It has no understanding of free will or honour.
Please forgive my inexact wording. Of course the game servers and the programs they run have no soul, and no conscience. One could say the same of the game developers that design and create the software. :)
But it is the game developers who select which actions to allow, which actions to reward, which actions to penalize, and which actions to ignore. I can only speculate what the dev-gods exact purposes are. Its safe to say that they want to promote free will among the players, while at the same time curtailing those actions which would allow a player an unfair advantage.
The buyer chooses to buy item X for amount Y from station Z. The game allows him to buy item X for amount Y from station Z.
So what if the game allocated the order to the person with the lowest sell order in station? The buyer got what he wanted, the seller with the lowest price in station got his stuff sold. End of story.
Whitehound, I understand your frustration, this doesn't appear fair to you. Plus its mucking with your spreadsheets. But if you'd listen and try to understand the other points of view, I think you'd realize that the players that do not agree with you are not thieves, and that there are valid reasons why the market works the way it does.
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- Who Dares, Wins
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.07.16 00:10:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 23:55:02
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
Stop. Feeding. Trolls. =P
Stop calling me or whoever a troll. Instead, use your remaining brain cells to explain to me what this feature's intention is. If it is intended to support your greediness then this thread proves that there is no need for that.
You need to give me a better explanation. We are still in Market Discussion and I am aware that I will find more competitors than buyers here. I do not think that it needs much persuasion to get the mass of buyers onto my side when I tell them that they could get a better price and that it would continue to be fair but only the traders wish to keep exploiting them.
No, you're a troll. Many explanations have been given and you've ignored them. It's all very simple. The question has been asked many times previously, and CCP themselves have stated that it is implemented as they intended. You can read whatever meaning you wish upon that -- several good reasons have been given here. EVE is not about being fair or just, it is about being EVE.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 01:51:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 01:54:57
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
No, you're a troll. Many explanations have been given and you've ignored them. It's all very simple. The question has been asked many times previously, and CCP themselves have stated that it is implemented as they intended. You can read whatever meaning you wish upon that -- several good reasons have been given here. EVE is not about being fair or just, it is about being EVE.
CCP cannot explain it, which is why they say that it is intended. Why do you not ask them what the intention is? It would make it a lot easier. You could give me an explanation and would not have to explain it to yourself as "EVE being EVE". We pay money for this game and at least deserve an answer that makes sense.
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"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Frenden Dax
Dax Acquisitions
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Posted - 2009.07.16 02:04:00 -
[97]
Oh my god you're stupid.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.07.16 02:17:00 -
[98]
lol
You are an idiot. Period.
CCP said it's working as intended
We have explained to you what that intention is
You're ignoring it
You sir, do not belong here, just go, please go and play in C&P. They love to entertain noobs like yourself.
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Kapila Parthalan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.16 02:28:00 -
[99]
While I disagree with the OP's arguments, I do think the current system could be improved. If you place a buy order at a higher price than the lowest sell order, then the item should be taken from this sell order, as it currently is. However, instead of paying your buy order price, the price could be their sell order price. This would allow you to quickly buy up multiple sell orders at varying prices without paying extra, while the sellers would get the price they ask for. It would also prevent RMT transactions at least as effectively as the current system. The same idea applies when you place a sell order at a lower price than the highest buy order.
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.16 02:30:00 -
[100]
people posting whine threads about things they benefit from, now i know Eve is dying.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 07:04:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 07:05:17
Why am I ignoring the explanations given here? I give an example to help you understand:
With the next extension puts CCP propellers on all ships.
With the explanations you have given me so far would you accept this. I.e., it is the same for everyone, because CCP tells you it is working as intended, and because this is EVE.
You posses the exact same attitude like people, who live in a country with a corrupt government, and where everyone pays bribes, because they have come to accept it as is and think that it is fair and just. And you have the courage to call me an idiot.
Now, either you take part in a discussion and come up with some good explanations or risk getting banned.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Seleucid Secundus
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Posted - 2009.07.16 07:27:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Seleucid Secundus on 16/07/2009 07:35:25
tard, there has been a discussion, valid and GOOD explanations have been given. You just choose not to listen. The conversation is over because you obviously do not want to educate yourself. STFU, grow up, then come back and apologize for wasting everyones time.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.07.16 07:30:00 -
[103]
Guys you have been trolled and thread's been actively being bounced.
Let it die, I am asking myself why I wasted these two paragraphs on this myself (answer: nothing to do at office ATM).
-
Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and
http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.16 11:10:00 -
[104]
It's an ANONYMOUS-BEFORE-FINISH brokerage system, it's not a shopping system.
In real-life, if you put up a "BUY" order at 27000 with your broker, if some other broker had his client put a "SELL" order at 30, he WILL sell at 27000, not at 30.
In-game, you do exactly the same - you put up an IMMEDIATE BUY order at 27000, so the broker does exactly that, he buys immediately at the price you set, from wherever he can first.
Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons.
If anything, you should complain the DIFFERENCE between 30 and 27000 isn't simply kept by the broker, in other words, ISK removed from the game (because in real-life, that's probably what would happen, the broker would most likely just pocket the difference).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente
TarNec
New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.16 11:24:00 -
[105]
This thread is rather lame on both sides at present moment. Would suit people if they tried debating instead of contradictions..
The system is maybe working as intended and for many of the reason mentioned, it does not change the fact that it creates some rather annoying effects.
One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho..
The real problem is the ****ed up price equilibrium and moving avg and statestics side of it..
It would be partly solved if CCP would make the filtering option impact the visible and interactable orders.
Thus the freak prices would not show if I filtered them out by disregarding all prices outside say 500% range.
The same added feature would make the low sec embargo feature possible and help in better price developments.
There are still quite a lot of features in EVE that might make sense in an ad hoc manner only, and could be higly improved and rebalanced.
Inexhaustible npc tradegoods.. WRONG
Exhaustible mining ressources(roids) WRONG
Skill limit to number of orders WRONG
All these problems together is counter to logic.
Sure you can adapt to these errors in judgement from ccp, and grow used to them, but they are still inherently wrong and should in time get fixed and replaced with something better.
The pragmatic nature is strong in EVE players so bringing them up will often be seen as a trolling, because it changes the game more then players can accept, even though it will be an improvement to gameplay..
- Money is Love -
Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:00:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Akita T
Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons.
Name the reasons and explain how it is just.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:51:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Kapila Parthalan
While I disagree with the OP's arguments, I do think the current system could be improved. If you place a buy order at a higher price than the lowest sell order, then the item should be taken from this sell order, as it currently is. However, instead of paying your buy order price, the price could be their sell order price. This would allow you to quickly buy up multiple sell orders at varying prices without paying extra, while the sellers would get the price they ask for. It would also prevent RMT transactions at least as effectively as the current system. The same idea applies when you place a sell order at a lower price than the highest buy order.
then your just switching the arguement and instead of the seller getting the better deal the buyer does, why would that make it anymore fair?
Not only that but it would require more coding and probably extra load on the server to implement a system where the broker uses AI to match bids. As CCP want to improve performance in hubs like Jita I find the current system is perfectly fair to everyone involved and keeps the game running smooth.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:06:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 13:12:18
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho..
I am not complaining about getting some extra profit as I simply keep it and only return the sums that stand out. For the rest of your comment are you taking the thread off its topic. The market does have filtering options and my complaint is not about not being able to pay for an item. I also do not want to take a customer's liberty to pick the wrong price, even when I think it would be a nice feature if it could be avoided, it does not belong into the current discussion. It is only about the item being taken from the seller with the best price, but the price being the one price another seller is advertising his items with.
I give another example. Take these two scenarios:
1.) You have two sellers A & B with prices 10 & 11 ISK.
2.) You have three sellers A, B & C with prices 10, 11 & 1000 ISK.
Why is seller A making more profit in scenario 2.) than in scenario 1.) when he only needed to beat seller B and by 1 ISK?
Because of this do you find sell orders on the market with only a few items but an extremely high price. These items are not meant to be sold, and cannot be bought out, but only serve to confuse the buyers. This is an abuse. This has nothing to do with fair competition or having a buyer's interest in mind any more.
Now add two more scenario:
3.) You have one seller, seller A, with a price of 10 ISK.
4.) You have sellers A & B with prices 10.00 & 10.01 ISK.
For the seller in scenario 3.) to profit like seller A in the first two scenarios would it require him to create an artificial competition, or to increase the price, which is the accepted practise (demand and offer). In scenario 4.) would seller A need to use a fake sell order, because he cannot increase his price, or else would lose in the competition.
No matter how I turn and twist it around do I not get a 100% fair and just competition, and one which is in the interest of the buyer. The concept of markets and trading is as old as civilization itself and is meant to be fair and just.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:19:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Midas Man on 16/07/2009 13:20:05
Originally by: Whitehound
another twist in the original argument
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
If you want to open a shop and try to sell Mini coopers for $150,000 each there is nothing to stop you. If someone comes along and wants to buy one at $150,000 then there is nothing to stop them. Even if next door sells them at $15,000.
If you really want you can go next door and say hey im rich, next door is charging $150,000 but I want to give you $150,000. There is nothing to stop you.
The only thing you cannot do in real life is sell things too cheaply as it seen as a way of creating a monopoly. so if you want to keep on comparing Eve to real life complain about "mineral are free" peoples and you might get a better responce.
edit replaced a wrongly placed "whatever" with a "as much"
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:19:00 -
[110]
And i can not for my life se how you have a problem with this...
You do understand that everytime you get a heap of money that was "no really yours" you are denying them to some scammer that is trying to lure unsuspection noobs or inatentive drunks.
The fact that alot of people are stupid, or inatentive (Mad raises her hand), or just lazy is not gonna change, so you should look at it this way, that you are scamming the scammer for his money, and making us all a little happier, cause i know i am. seems my 300 mill probably did not go to the stupid git with the high sell order, but the good honest trader with the lowest prized sell order, and that just made my day.
That people do buy item without properly researching prices, is not your problem, and you should not beat yourself up over it, if they really cant be bothered to have a look in the market, well frankly, **** em, and for those that might do the honest mistake sometimes, through this system, they now know that most likely their hard earned isk did not just go to that low life s****scammer...
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:27:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Midas Man
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
No, not if a competitor beats your prices.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
lacretia
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:29:00 -
[112]
4 pages!
***News Flash*** some things in EvE allow predators to prey on the weak, unattentive, naive, noobish, lazy, or just plain stupid.
Someone already mentioned it before...this is a sci-fi game, with a sci-fi based economy. Would it be nice if there were some changes? Sure, of course there were. But I also wish ships didnt slow down when I deactivate the AB, or MWD...and I wish projectile ammo had a travel time...as firing 150km should take a while...
The system they have in place is working, and so far you are the only person to ever make a 4 page troll/gripe post about the ability to make more money off people using "DESIGNED" game mechanics. "You mean I get standing if I help a gang member out with a mission and he turns it in for both of us?!?! But I want to mindlessly grind standing on my own! I should be able to turn down standing! ohnoEs!."
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lacretia
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:38:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Midas Man
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
No, not if a competitor beats your prices.
I paid 3.99 for a gallon of milk at the grocery store yesterday...I found out that the grocery store down the street had the same brand and the same size on sale for 2.99. I didn't get a message from my grocery store offering me my dollar back.
Different stores have different prices, if you pay more at one store that is your fault.
Problem is...the Market is >not< a store. It is market that asks two very simple questions.
Marketing computer: How much will you pay for X item and how many?
You: I will pay 10isk for it and I want 100 for a total of 1000 isk..
Marketing computer: Ok, I will buy 100 for 10isk for a total of 1000is.
Marketing computer: How much will you sell item X for and how many?
You: I will sell 100 for 10isk each for a total of 1000 isk.
Marketing computer: Ok, I will sell 100 for 10 isk each for a total of 1000 isk.
It doesnt reason, it doesnt bargain for you. Our computer "bargaining" for us takes the "player" aspect out of it...which is pretty much against what CCP wants to do.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:39:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Midas Man
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
No, not if a competitor beats your prices.
I'll gladly pay a higher price if I don't have to drive across town or endure overcrowded store with idiots for employees.
There is always a buyer no matter the price.
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:40:00 -
[115]
And as for your complaints as how the system works on normal trading, that is how the system works, and you learn to trade within that system, you'd be amased at how close to real this system is... it's not a supermarket, where everything is at a fixed price and a system that ensures that everone payes the fixed price...
if you pay more than it was really sold for, than that was just really bad research, and you end up paying for that lack... i'm not sure, but it seems to me that you have missed some of the core concepts in eve, and that is that you are on your own, noone is gonna lay it out for you, you have to think for yourself, you have to figure it out, its not bad system design that makes you pay more for it, its your lack of lookin at the market, CCP has just designed the market to be as open as possible, giving you the ability to do what ever you want, even if its paying for for a commodity than that item was advertised
if you thing its unfair that items are substracted from the lowest selling price at taht station, and not the higher priced that you clicked at, (i cant imagine why anyone would do taht at all tbh) imagine that the office of the broker with the lower price was closer to your hangar, so the market agent just wanted to save time walking all across the station, and getting you your goods much faster...
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Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:42:00 -
[116]
and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b...
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:44:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mad Maulkin
if you thing its unfair that items are substracted from the lowest selling price at taht station, and not the higher priced that you clicked at, (i cant imagine why anyone would do taht at all tbh)
RMT is the only reason someone would be upset with the way the market works.
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Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:49:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Midas Man
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
No, not if a competitor beats your prices.
obviously you still have your reading disability
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:51:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Mad Maulkin
and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b...
No, it does matter. I do get an extra profit. What you want is that it is just for some and one person at a time. What I want is that it is just for all and at all times. Justice is not bound to the seller who wins in the competition.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Mad Maulkin
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:55:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Midas Man
Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer.
No, not if a competitor beats your prices.
have to agree with the above people here
a store will not tell you "nonono they sell it cheaper across the street, you must go over there". A vcompetitor with a cheaper price wont help you unless you choose to buy from them..
But you are thinking in a shop mentality, this is a market system... and all market transactions are done through an agent ie the Market in eve.
If you wanted to buy direclty from the person, you send a mail to them, other wise teh market agent goes to the lowest selling broker and buys from him at the price you offered, since you did not bother to check id someone acctualy offered at a lower price
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