| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Whitehound
   |
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:44:58
 Originally by: LaVista Vista
You think an intended feature is a bug?
You think a bug is an intended feature?
Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are being treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits?
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: LaVista Vista
You think an intended feature is a bug?
You think a bug is an intended feature?
Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits?
The buyer agrees to a certain price when he presses ok. In fact, the default setting is to WARN if you are buying something at a stupid price.
An agreement is an agreement. And that agreement is agreed to when the buyer presses OK.
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:40:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 14/07/2009 12:43:08
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Lord Fitz
You know you can always just give back the difference ?
Meanwhile, they're getting their missile they indicated they were willing to pay millions for....
And I do give back the difference. Next time you better read more carefully.
Problem solved then.....
They indicate that they are willing to pay more for the item. They place an order with a broker who finds them someone willing to sell them that item for that price, your broker indicates that you have indicated that you would sell for that price. Your broker sells your item and DOESN'T screw you out of a sale just because they wanted to pay more.
Any other behaviour would be a bug.
This is how it is supposed to work and does work.
That you wish to give money back to people who willingly paid it, is really nothing to do with the games design. Thus you have to cater for that, not the game itself.
There are plenty of threads about this, if you searched more carefully you wouldn't need to waste everyone's time reading and replying to this one.
Originally by: Whitehound
Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits?
They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots.
|
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:49:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:55:16
Originally by: Lord Fitz
They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots.
No, I have no interest to profit from a mistake someone makes. As I said, I do not bother with the small amounts, but I do care when it sticks out. As such do I call this a bug. If it was not for this "intended feature" then we would not be arguing about it. People would pay exactly the price an item is being offered for and there would be no reason for a debate, a refund or whatever. In one word, it would be just.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
flakeys
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:55:00 -
[35]
Really if this annoys you either:
A. you need to get out more'
B. you need to play less
C. you need to do some anger management for getting frustrated by this
Someone makes a mistake and hands more isk to you then he wanted.Fine , his mistake and up to you to decide if you want to give it back.That simple.
If i pay too much in a shop like you tried to grasp from irl then yes it is up to the seller to be honest and give it back to me , but it was MY mistake wich I will take blame for and the consequences.And that would be if it was RL , in this case it's just a game.
|
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:17:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 13:19:24
Originally by: flakeys
...
You are a pirate in disguise!! I tell you something, and to help you to become a real outlaw: Give me all your ISK. Once we laugh as a consequence of your mistake of giving all your money to me, and I promise you will get a receipt to prove of having made the biggest mistake in your life and so you can blame yourself, will you be so broke that you start robbing others. 
In the meantime, let others discuss the injustice of this system.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Elii Witherworth
Gallente
Solar Excavations Ultd.
Black Sun Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:24:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Elii Witherworth on 14/07/2009 13:25:51
First of all, LMAO!!
Secondly, it's not a bug...
Third:
Quote:
Originally by: LaVista Vista
It's designed to mimic a stock market in Rl. But it just so happens to stop laundering through the market.
Does it?
What if I tell you to set up a sell order, and I set up one as well, but far over-priced? I would buy from my own sell order, the item will be taken from your order and you receive the money. There you go. I have given you a huge amount of money.
First of all, why the HELL would you buy the more expensive item??? That is 100% stupidity... It's the buyers fault in that case, a situation of idiocracy not bugocity...
I do see where you are comming from though... While I don't mind keeping the extra idk, I know a few of my friends who would mind... You (as the seller) have the option to either pay them back or ignore it...
Fourth of all, ITS NOT ALWAYS A MISTAKE! I've placed plenty of regional or ranged buy orders without realizing that there were cheaper items. Whoops, my bad! But guess what? I didn't have to go through the process of finding and buying each and every order, and I still MADE MY PROFIT! In fact, you taking the time to convo me about my mistake would probably cost me more than you would send back from what I was WILLING to pay... The market only places orders and such of the amount the buyer is willing to pay... Which means they aren't making a mistake paying that much, it's the mistake that you end up with it...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Proud member of the Witherworth Family!
Current members:
Elii, Moishe, Ezekiel, Obadiah, and Zechariah. |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:30:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Whitehound
And what about buy orders? Do they give me less when I try to sell to an under-priced buy order? No, the game does pick the best available price! So stop pretending that this would be some miracle payment system when it is a bug.
Originally by: Midas Man
wrong again, if i right click an item hit sell. type 0.01 and hit sell. I will sell my product to the highest buy order which could be 1,000,000,000 isk, guess how much i will recieve.... 0.01isk which is exactly what i asked for, no bug no faulty UI just random stupidity from me.
Originally by: Whitehound
That is not same. I might as well hit "trash item" and I would not count it as a bug.
You just make up one reason after another to cash in. Fine, be a trader with no morals. I choose to be different.
What is not the same???? If you hit trash item no bug if you hit sell for 0.01 isk it is WTF are you on about????
you think buy orders dont fill if you put a lower price.
Reread the thread clearly you haven't got the faintest idea how the market works or how it should work.
Yet you think you can claim something is a bug.
You have no reading comprehension but you call others for it.
There are 2-3 fail safes inbuilt into eve to stop you selling for less than intended or buying for more than intended.
1) you choose which order to buy/sell from.
2) a dialog box is then shown, showing exactly what your buying/selling for.
3) if you offering well above market price a Warning box is shown asking if you completely sure.
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:55:16
Originally by: Lord Fitz
They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots.
No, I have no interest to profit from a mistake someone makes. As I said, I do not bother with the small amounts, but I do care when it sticks out. As such do I call this a bug. If it was not for this "intended feature" then we would not be arguing about it. People would pay exactly the price an item is being offered for and there would be no reason for a debate, a refund or whatever. In one word, it would be just.
Just because you don't want it, doesn't mean it's not in your interest.
If you're expecting 'just' you're in the wrong game, if you hadn't noticed.
I think it would be unjust for your broker to sell your item for less than someone indicated they were willing to pay.
|
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:57:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 14:02:35
Originally by: Midas Man
What is not the same????
Because with buy orders it picks the best price for you automatically and with sell orders it does not.
Just to repeat myself, this is not about buying from the wrong seller or the wrong sell order. I do not care if someone gets it wrong to pick the best price. It would be nice if the system would be smarter, but that is just on the side.
The point is that the item is taken of the best-priced stock, while the price comes from the stock the buyer selected. If a buyer selects the order with a too high price then the buyer should also get the item from the stock he or she selected.
Most orders are not scams, yet this feature gives more credit to the owner of the best-priced order then he or she deserves.
And to call this a fix to prevent scams, while the item is taken from someone else and the ridiculous high price is still being paid cannot be a fix. It should never be paid in this case and if the item is taken of the best-priced stock then the buyer should only pay the best-price, too. If not then the average price. You do not stop money laundry by transferring the money to some other account. People are being made part of the scam or just need to give it back anyway!
For some this is difficult to understand as they only see a plus in their wallet, and others may not dare to ask for a refund ashamed of their mistake. But I do hope that some of you understand this small and rather subtle misbehaviour.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
|
|
flakeys
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:58:00 -
[41]
Edited by: flakeys on 14/07/2009 14:05:02
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 13:19:24
Originally by: flakeys
...
You are a pirate in disguise!! I tell you something, and to help you to become a real outlaw: Give me all your ISK. Once we laugh as a consequence of your mistake of giving all your money to me, and I promise you will get a receipt to prove of having made the biggest mistake in your life and so you can blame yourself, will you be so broke that you start robbing others.
In the meantime, let others discuss the injustice of this system.
Frist off , pirate? hahahahaa
Ok , second i lost at least 8 billion isk with stupidity , mistakes like above and others.I have never seen this other then my own mistake.Those blaiming it on the game or mechanics or bugs or what the hell else are just too bigheaded to face it as their own damn fault.
I have been 'broke' as you state for about 10 times in my eve time and every time i came back stronger out of it.Never had to loan anything and more important :'No i did never ransom anyone, scam anyone '.
Ow and , do people still roleplay , damn that's cute.
Edit: as a proof this is one of MANY many stupid things i done :
noob
|
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 14:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: flakeys
Ow and , do people still roleplay , damn that's cute.
I am not role playing nor is justice an element of role playing. It may surprise you, but justice is universal! There have been other minor bugs in the market system in the past. For example were some taxes taken off ones account before the transaction and not after as it should be. In a few cases did this make a difference. So, it may just be another one of those odd misbehaviours which need to be straighten out.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
lacretia
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 14:31:00 -
[43]
After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about...
If your problem is that the broker wont find you "the best buy" on the market, then tough. Think of what would happen if that happened...
I set up a buy order for 10 isk...you set up a buy order for 9.9 isk...you get more product because I only get items that sell for >exactly< 10 isk. You, who are willing to pay less, get all the items. But then, someone comes in and sets a buy order for 9.8 isk, he therefore gets all the items, and you only get items that sell for 9.9 isk.
See where this is going? Buy orders would be so slow to fill it would be sick.
When someone clicks an item to sell, it gives them the best offer currently out there on their item. If you happen to be willing to offer more than me, then you will get the item...otherwise tough.
|
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:01:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 15:01:16
Originally by: lacretia
After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about...
An example:
Seller A is offering 100 items for 10 ISK.
Seller B is offering the same items for 11 ISK and holds 200 of them.
Seller A is has the better price ...
You want to buy 10 items and select to buy from seller B - why does not matter. What matters is that both, seller A and seller B, are in range and both are valid suppliers.
What happens is this:
- You pay 110 ISK for 10 items.
- Seller A loses 10 items, has now 90, and receives 110 ISK.
- Seller B still has 200 items left.
What it means is that seller A not only beats seller B in the competition, because he offers a lower price. He gets rid of his stock, too, while seller B is not selling anything. Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock.
Not only can seller B not sell his stock, but seller A gets to sell the item for the price of seller B.
To the buyer does this make little difference. I believe both sellers need to be at the same station and that the buyer now does not need to go searching for his 10 items.
So now seller A can have a laugh, because he gets rid of his stock and makes an extra profit.
Seller B most likely never gets wind of it.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Daeva Vios
New Eden Credit Bureau
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:08:00 -
[45]
This is my first post in an utterly useless thread that a lot of people are using to waste time.
Will it be my last? Wait and see~!
-------------------------------------
NECB |
flakeys
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:09:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Whitehound
I am not role playing
Yes you are , you are calling me a pirate 
|
Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
New Eden Research
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:10:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
This is my first post in an utterly useless thread that a lot of people are using to waste time.
Will it be my last? Wait and see~!
He is a rather stubborn troll, since he refuses to accept the correct answer.
|
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Will it be my last? Wait and see~!
Will it be your last? Not if you want to make a point.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
New Eden Research
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Will it be my last? Wait and see~!
Will it be your last? Not if you want to make a point.
Her point is already better than your point.
|
flakeys
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Daeva Vios
This is my first post in an utterly useless thread that a lot of people are using to waste time.
Will it be my last? Wait and see~!
He is a rather stubborn troll, since he refuses to accept the correct answer.
is it the number 5?
|
|
|
Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:19:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 15:01:16
Originally by: lacretia
After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about...
An example:
Seller A is offering 100 items for 10 ISK.
Seller B is offering the same items for 11 ISK and holds 200 of them.
Seller A is has the better price ...
You want to buy 10 items and select to buy from seller B - why does not matter. What matters is that both, seller A and seller B, are in range and both are valid suppliers.
What happens is this:
- You pay 110 ISK for 10 items.
- Seller A loses 10 items, has now 90, and receives 110 ISK.
- Seller B still has 200 items left.
What it means is that seller A not only beats seller B in the competition, because he offers a lower price. He gets rid of his stock, too, while seller B is not selling anything. Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock.
Not only can seller B not sell his stock, but seller A gets to sell the item for the price of seller B.
To the buyer does this make little difference. I believe both sellers need to be at the same station and that the buyer now does not need to go searching for his 10 items.
So now seller A can have a laugh, because he gets rid of his stock and makes an extra profit.
Seller B most likely never gets wind of it.
The stupid. It hurts.
The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist.
If the buyer had been fully informed, he would have bought from Seller A. Period. He was NOT fully informed, which is common to many losses in Eve and is a "working as intended" mechanic of a game where knowledge is power.
"Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock." -- This is patently false. Seller A got money for which he exchanged his items, he just got overpaid. Seller B loses either way for having the higher price listed, since an informed buyer would have bought from Seller A anyway.
Is your suggestion that sellers who list their items for the lowest price not sell them if the buyer for some reason wants to buy them for more? Really? Have you not given any thought to the ISK-laundering can of worms that opens? Have you not considered that it would motivate folks even more to post silly sell orders for 1,000x or 1,000,000x the market price? I mean, several of my characters have a few dozen orders free, so maybe I should go sell EMP S charges for 4,000,000 ISK? What's to dissuade me since I know that there's now a chance that some idiot will pick the order and I will profit?
Look, you've been in this game over four months now. If you don't already know that Eve is an unforgiving, *but ultimately fair* game, then this is your wake-up call. There is nothing headed down the path you suggest except for even more exploitation of the clueless and chaos in the market.
TLDR version: No. Please don't interrupt the adults while they're talking.
----
Suddenly Ninjas
Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
|
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:21:00 -
[52]
just to clarify whitehound
yesterday i was going to put 6 Low-grade slave Alpha's on the market, in my rush of getting all orders checked and new stock listed in the 30 mins or so i get I selected sell on Low-grade slave beta's and oops sold all 6 to buy orders for ~16m each highest buys were ~24mil. No big deal, my mistake i selected the wrong product and I ignored the dialog box which include info telling me I was selling Beta's not Alpha's.
Nothing in Eve forces anyone to sell or buy at a price they haven't had chance double or treble check.
Pull out all the examples you want but there is not 1 instance where you can sell at the wrong price without being given numerous ways to spot your error, and thats what it is a USER error not a bug.
As you brought real life into it earlier....If you are short changed in a shop (ie you pay more than you wanted) and you leave the store, see what happens when you go back in. The store owner will likely tell you he give you the right change and in future you should check your change before leaving the store.
If someone pays you too much in eve they should have checked before clicking OK.
There is no bug at work there is no bad mechanics at work. The market is designed in very easy to understand and easy to use manner whereby any error is down to the user and not the interface/program.
|
lacretia
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:23:00 -
[53]
Here is an idea!
I'll send you a gazillion real life dollars for 1 trillion isk. I will then place 1 unit of tritanium on the market in Rens for 1 Trillion isk...that way, all you have to do is buy that 1 unit from me and Ill have the isk!
...oh wait...you mean that isk would go to someone who was "honestly" trading within the bounds of the game? I wouldn't get my trillion isk?
Well...I guess we shouldn't deal in real money then...
:sarcasm off: The market isnt like Wal-Mart...its more like wal-street. You have a selling price, and a buying price. To the system, who is behind those buy/sell orders is invisible until after the sale...and rightly so, as in the example above.
|
Dzil
Caldari
StrwBerry Pancakes
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:40:00 -
[54]
I'd prefer if we're going to invest dev time on the market side, that we improve the interfacing of the contract system.
Fixing people being stupid goes against the spirit of EVE.
----------------------
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings
---------------------- |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:54:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:01:29
Originally by: Paul Clavet
The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist.
That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers.
If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No.
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:11:00 -
[56]
You can go ahead, I'll keep making the occasional extra isk that way thank you very much. |
Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Whitehound
That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers.
If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No.
What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread.
|
Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:01:29
Originally by: Paul Clavet
The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist.
That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers.
If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No.
You keep making these comparisons to the quick-mart at the corner, instead of the commodities market that the eve market more closely resembles. All items in eve are commodities, that is, they are homogeneous in nature and there is no differentiation between your 1MN Afterburner I and mine.
You also did not address the issues with your proposed solution and the issues it will cause. Most offensive is your ignorance of the effect this will have on the scammers that you so despise... Do you think that this will increase them, or decrease them?
----
Suddenly Ninjas
Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
|
Sun Clausewitz
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:34:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Midas Man
What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread.
OK, I feel for our OP's tender heart...
But my problem with the market is it should show Who is selling it and let me choose who I buy from. I don't want to be funding my enemy after all. Although I do love selling ammo to my enemies, killing them and looting it from their wrecks and reselling it to them over and over.
Pick Three:
Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Whitehound
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:36:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Midas Man
What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread.
Oh, really? I have filed it now as a bug. I do not expect you to understand it. I want a more just system, because I get a lot of money this way into my account, which is rightfully not mine. Most I keep, because it is just a small amounts and the sum only piles up. Just sometimes does a larger payment stand out. If you should ever pay me too much and I notice it will you, too, get an e-mail in which I tell you about it. And you will get your money back.
All the best to you. 
--
"Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |