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This is not how I want to make money

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Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 07:18:42 Hello, EVE is a wonderful, challenging game. Yet there is one thing that is starting to p' me off. It is people, who pay too much because of scammers. I am currently selling some missiles for about 30 ISK each and it is now the second time that someone paid 37,000.00 ISK instead, resulting each time in a payment of millions of ISK for a handful of standard missiles! Am I complaining about getting rich? No. What I am complaining about is of involuntary scamming of people. Some people like to set up sell orders with prices of a thousand times higher than the average price and some people choose to buy from them. I can only imagine these players play this game while being drunk or that perhaps the window moves and others to use it against them. I could live a happy and ignorant live if the payment went to the person who set up the over-prized sell order. However, the game engine rather takes the amounts from the best, lowest offer, but pays the full height of the selected price rather than for what I am asking. Why is this? Does this have to be this way? It makes me part of the scam, when I want to be an honest and fair trader. If the system chooses to take from my stock then it shall take it for the price I am asking and not for what the system thinks it needs to give me. I do not want to take part in scamming and the system shall not decide how much I get. And neither do I want people's charity. The first guy who I told about his over-payment asked for a refund and I gave him his money back. Now another guy paid me about 22 million for a handful of missiles ... I see this happening on a regular basis, and for much smaller amounts, which I do not bother about or else I would be refunding ISK about every hour. I consider this to be a bug in the transaction system. Who else has this problem? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:18:00 - [2] I don't consider it a bug as it does stop RMT via he market that way, and I have repaid over payments a few times - it also teaches people how to use the market properly ... -- RaTTuS @ InEve, Capital Prints for sale
Lost Hamster Hamster Holding Corp	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:22:00 - [3] I had this a couple time, when someone paid more for the item, as it should be, but this is not a bug, this is how the market works. And I will not complain about the extra money either.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:24:00 - [4] Originally by: RaTTuS I don't consider it a bug as it does stop RMT via he market that way, and I have repaid over payments a few times - it also teaches people how to use the market properly ... It is a bug when the system decides to take it of my stock. Only because I get paid too much does not mean it is not a bug. People would feel different about it if they would get less than they are asking for. The amount by which it is wrong (plus or minus) only makes it a pleasant bug. Still, I do not want to support scamming and bugs like this is one of the reasons why people flood local with scam contracts. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:24:00 - [5] I think the most was 1bil for a t2 cap recharger - this was [mostly] paid back and the victim educated on what he did wrong..., but you cannot get them all -- RaTTuS @ InEve, Capital Prints for sale
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Ambo on 14/07/2009 07:25:45 never mind... -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 08:31:00 - [7] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 08:35:23 Originally by: Ambo never mind... Sure, if you pay me too much then I will not mind, but it really is not a fair deal for everyone else who is trading with me. Training a skill like Margin Trading or Accounting has little meaning with this kind of system, that is when the amount of profit becomes unpredictable. With only those two over-payments have I made more money then my entire stock is worth. This is just wrong and unrealistic, and needs to be fixed. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:06:00 - [8] This has to be a scammer troll or an idiot. Fine ill assume its an idiot... You dont like ppl overpaying for your products because you feel it makes you part of the scam eh? What the mechanic actually does is remove any incentive a scammer has to overprice his items in the market. He can overprice all he wants- only the cheapest sell order fills the request. So shut up already, take the isk, and feel warm and fuzzy about your role in preventing scammers from benefiting from their actions. Your stuff iz mine through actions
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:18:00 - [9] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 09:22:46 Originally by: Future Mutant So shut up already, take the isk, and feel warm and fuzzy about your role in preventing scammers from benefiting from their actions. Why don't you shut up? The system is not the one who gets to make the decision. And if EVE is a futuristic space simulation then how come my trading computer is about as dumb as you? Do people not deserve a trading computer on board their ships and stations, which gives them the best price? The troll is you. Or you are one of those scammers who exploit the game this way. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:29:00 - [10] Edited by: Midas Man on 14/07/2009 09:32:11 Originally by: Whitehound Sure, if you pay me too much then I will not mind, but it really is not a fair deal for everyone else who is trading with me. Sure it is they have the same chance of recieving more money for their products, the mechanics are the same for all not just yourself therefore it is fair to all. Originally by: Whitehound Training a skill like Margin Trading or Accounting has little meaning with this kind of system, that is when the amount of profit becomes unpredictable. With only those two over-payments have I made more money then my entire stock is worth. This is just wrong and unrealistic, and needs to be fixed. 1) Margin Trading - This skill only changes the amount of Isk you need in escrow so you are correct it has little meaning in your example but it is extremely useful for any trader and therefore has great meaning and place in the game 2) Accounting is extremely useful for reducing taxes on trading and therefore a great skill for any trader. Also sales taxes are paid by the seller so the more someone pays the more you save if you have trained accounting so not sure I get your point here. I can only assume you paid too much for something and are annoyed that you didnt get you isk back edit fixed some spelling probably missed more
Fekka Lumberjack Industries	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 09:27:25 Why don't you shut up? The system is not the one who gets to make the decision. And if EVE is a futuristic space simulation then how come my trading computer is about as dumb as you? Do people not deserve a trading computer on board their ships and stations, which gives them the best price? The troll here is you who does not understand the situation. Or you are one of those scammers who exploit the game this way or wish it would work in this way for them, too. Your trading computer can and will show you the best price. You still have to choose to buy at that price. That's just the human factor. You can't prevent people from beeing dumb.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:46:00 - [12] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 09:56:20 Originally by: Fekka Your trading computer can and will show you the best price. You still have to choose to buy at that price. That's just the human factor. You can't prevent people from beeing dumb. You could prevent it with a better trading computer and at the same time make trading a little bit more challenging when only the price decides. In fact it is the prices that decides whose stock the items are being taken off, but it was not me who set up the over-priced order. So if you want it to be fair then it is the one who sets up over-priced order who deserves the money. And there is no self-righteousness involved here. It is only a bug. Do you not see that this invites scams? It allows me to set up two orders, where one has a competitive price and the other is a total scam, but in both cases do I make a profit. Unless of course everyone starts doing it and speculates on that one transaction that is going to pay off the entire other order. In short, it is complete nonsense and because it is a bug that works in some people's favour have many of you not yet made up their mind about it. When was the last time you walked out of a super market and paid for a pack of carrots the price of a small car? And why would you not ask for a refund? I think EVE is a game too good to support this kind of stupidity. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Midas Man I can only assume you paid too much for something and are annoyed that you didnt get you isk back No, I happen to be an honest person - something you are not familiar with. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 10:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Midas Man I can only assume you paid too much for something and are annoyed that you didnt get you isk back No, I happen to be an honest person - something you are not familiar with. A bug is a term used to described something that isnt working as intended. The situation you described is Working as intended. Features and Ideas Discussion This way -------> good luck you will need it.
Fekka Lumberjack Industries	Posted - 2009.07.14 10:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 09:56:20 When was the last time you walked out of a super market and paid for a pack of carrots the price of a small car? And why would you not ask for a refund? I think EVE is a game too good to support this kind of stupidity. You're idea of a fair price just isn't everyones. It all depends. Just for the sake of argument: What if you are in the middle of a desert and carry around a lot of money but have nothing to eat? You gladly would pay the price of a small car for that carrots before you starve. "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." Some wise man said that a long time ago and it pretty much concludes the whole thread.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 10:27:00 - [16] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 10:28:17 Originally by: Fekka "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it." Some wise man said that a long time ago and it pretty much concludes the whole thread. Spare me your wisdom. If you want to give me something just donate half of your ISK to me. Thanks. Until then do I see EVE as a game to have fun with. And I get no fun from receiving huge sums of money from people who did not intend to give them to me, who are glad when they receive a refund and would otherwise have thought of me as some greedy arse. I just do not have the time to go after each one of them, to check if each transaction has actually transferred the right amount of money. If I do not care about it now then I will not get any money back once a bug charges me too much or rewards me with too little. See it this way. If others are allowed to act stupid and to pay too much, then why does the system reward me when I could set up under-priced orders and still walk away with a huge profit? Under-priced orders are stupid, too. And what about buy orders? Do they give me less when I try to sell to an under-priced buy order? No, the game does pick the best available price! So stop pretending as if this would be some miracle payment system when it is a bug. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:08:00 - [17] Edited by: Midas Man on 14/07/2009 11:09:32 Originally by: Whitehound more random ditherings wrong again, if i right click an item hit sell. typ 0.01 and hit sell. I will sell my product to the highest buy order which could be 1,000,000,000 isk, guess how much i will recieve.... 0.01isk which is exactly what i asked for, no bug no faulty UI just random stupidity from me. works exactly the same the other way when buy, I buy for the price I offer. The UI doesn't make a value up that is different from what I enter, no bug comes along and changes the price I offer. Everything works fine and as intended, if people rush and make mistakes or are to dumb to realise there is a better offer then there is no flaw in the software. Only people with your level of intellegence are fooled by this.
Fekka Lumberjack Industries	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 11:04:05 ... If you want to give me something just donate half of your ISK to me. Thanks... ... I get no fun from receiving huge sums of money from people who did not intend to give them to me... You have a problem with people giving you money and want half my ISK? You really have some issues, Mr...
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Whitehound stop pretending that this would be some miracle payment system when it is a bug. It's not a bug Person A sells 1 unit of whatever for 1 billion isk that he he bought with RL money. Person B sells 1 unit at 10,000 isk. Person C sold the 1 billion for RL money, but ended up giving the isk to Person B. It's designed like this on purpose to stop RMT through the market. If someone is too stupid to setup their market screen to sort from lowest to highest price, oh well. EVE provides you with all the tools necessary to make an informed decision on what you can pay for an item. If you are feeling guilty because some people are not the brightest, then perhaps EVE isn't for you.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Midas Man wrong again, if i right click an item hit sell. typ 0.01 and hit sell. I will sell my product to the highest buy order which could be 1,000,000,000 isk, guess how much i will recieve.... 0.01isk which is exactly what i asked for, no bug no faulty UI just random stupidity from me. That is not same. I might as well hit "trash item" and I would not count it as a bug. You just make up one reason after another to cash in. Fine, be a trader with no morals. I choose to be different. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Fekka You have a problem with people giving you money and want half my ISK? You really have some issues, Mr... No, you have issues. I am still waiting for half of your ISK and am only willing to take it from you, because I think you are special and worth making an exception. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Whitehound Some people like to set up sell orders with prices of a thousand times higher than the average price and some people choose to buy from them. I can only imagine these players play this game while being drunk or that perhaps the window moves, the text is too small and the mouse lands on the wrong line, and others to use it against them. I could live a happy and ignorant live if the payment went to the person who set up the over-prized sell order. However, the game engine rather takes the amounts from the best, lowest offer, but pays the full height of the selected price rather than for what I am asking. Why is this? Does this have to be this way? Ok, I am really confused. As I understand it. a) You buy from sell orders and click on a specific sell order (in a specific station). That sell order might be totally overpriced, but you chose it specifically (maybe due to loaction) you pay the price and the overpriced seller gets your ISK. b) You are dumb/drunk and setup a buy order which is higher than the lowest sell order. The person with the lowest sell order gets more than they asked for because they are paid the amount you had offered. There seem to be two mechanics being mixed up in the OP but no one else has challenged the quoted part of your post so it must be me who is missing something. --- *Let My People Go*
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Breaker77 It's designed like this on purpose to stop RMT through the market. Not exactly. It's designed to mimic a stock market in Rl. But it just so happens to stop laundering through the market.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Breaker77 ... If you are feeling guilty because some people are not the brightest, then perhaps EVE isn't for you. Oh, some sure are not the brightest, but I do not think that these are consequently the same who pay too much. You have now compared it, or at least tried to, with real world money. Tell me, when you go in a shop and are being charged too much do you then not deserve a refund? Markets will give you a refund for when an item was mislabelled, however, they do not charge you extra when the price goes up. Human errors are made all the time, and bugs are human errors, too. If you like to be a pirate and rob traders then, well, that is your way. I could understand your point of view, but if I want to be an honest trader then why should I not complain about this? Make your profit the way you want, but do not tell me what to think of this. I think it is a bug and further do I find it immoral to profit from it. I have yet to see a good argument why this is the right kind of trade. If people are supposed to learn how to use the market then a simple message would be sufficient. It does not need to take millions of ISK of them. And if it is meant to stop scams then why does it cost the wrong people's money or why do they not just get the best price like with buy orders? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Wooster Knite	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:59:00 - [25] Originally by: RaTTuS I think the most was 1bil for a t2 cap recharger i was - some years ago - selling T1 torpedo listed at 120 isk. One single torpedo missile was sold for 3 bil (3000mil). unfortunatly it was an "illegal ISK transaction" error from some ISK seller and CCP took it back from me
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:01:00 - [26] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:04:08 Another example of this is: Go and set up a buy order, which pays 10 ISK per item at station A. And further, at the same time there are several sell orders open that sell the item for less. Let us say 8 and 9 ISK at station B and C. What happens is that you buy from all sell orders with an item price of 10 ISK regardless of what the sellers are asking. The system lets you not simply set up a buy order while the item is for sale and in reach, and, it does not let you buy the items for the price they are being advertised. Instead, it assumes that you want to buy them for 10 ISK as well are willing to travel to station B and C. It does not assume that you would rather want to buy them for the price their are being offered for or to only set up a buy order for 10 ISK per item at station A. If you want to set up a buy order for 10 ISK you first need to buy all the cheaper items of the market, one order after another, before you can set up the buy order. The way it works, and that it works this way, can be in nobody's interest. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:24:14 Originally by: LaVista Vista It's designed to mimic a stock market in Rl. But it just so happens to stop laundering through the market. Does it? What if I tell you to set up a sell order, and I set up one as well, but far over-priced? I would buy from my own sell order, the item will be taken from your order and you receive the money. There you go. I have given you a huge amount of money. You only need to have the best order for a short time. Depending on the item could this work with a 99.9% guarantee. You think it prevents laundering? I think it is a bug. Besides, CCP probably logs all transactions and for long enough so that no laundering will ever work. So do not think there is a way that any transaction could ever go unnoticed. If they want to they can and will find it. All accounts have transaction logs and journals, and who knows what else CCP has that we only do not see! -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Whitehound You just make up one reason after another to cash in. Fine, be a trader with no morals. I choose to be different. You know you can always just give back the difference ? Meanwhile, they're getting their missile they indicated they were willing to pay millions for....
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Whitehound I think it is a bug. You think an intended feature is a bug? When CCP was intended for the SCC market to be like a stock market. Then how can a fundamental rule be a bug?
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Lord Fitz You know you can always just give back the difference ? Meanwhile, they're getting their missile they indicated they were willing to pay millions for.... And I do give back the difference. Next time you better read more carefully. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:37:00 - [31] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:44:58 Originally by: LaVista Vista You think an intended feature is a bug? You think a bug is an intended feature? Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are being treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: LaVista Vista You think an intended feature is a bug? You think a bug is an intended feature? Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits? The buyer agrees to a certain price when he presses ok. In fact, the default setting is to WARN if you are buying something at a stupid price. An agreement is an agreement. And that agreement is agreed to when the buyer presses OK.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:40:00 - [33] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 14/07/2009 12:43:08 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Lord Fitz You know you can always just give back the difference ? Meanwhile, they're getting their missile they indicated they were willing to pay millions for.... And I do give back the difference. Next time you better read more carefully. Problem solved then..... They indicate that they are willing to pay more for the item. They place an order with a broker who finds them someone willing to sell them that item for that price, your broker indicates that you have indicated that you would sell for that price. Your broker sells your item and DOESN'T screw you out of a sale just because they wanted to pay more. Any other behaviour would be a bug. This is how it is supposed to work and does work. That you wish to give money back to people who willingly paid it, is really nothing to do with the games design. Thus you have to cater for that, not the game itself. There are plenty of threads about this, if you searched more carefully you wouldn't need to waste everyone's time reading and replying to this one. Originally by: Whitehound Then tell me, in whose interest are these transactions made when my customers are treated like drunken idiots and I have no way to predict and calculate my profits? They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:49:00 - [34] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:55:16 Originally by: Lord Fitz They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots. No, I have no interest to profit from a mistake someone makes. As I said, I do not bother with the small amounts, but I do care when it sticks out. As such do I call this a bug. If it was not for this "intended feature" then we would not be arguing about it. People would pay exactly the price an item is being offered for and there would be no reason for a debate, a refund or whatever. In one word, it would be just. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
flakeys Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:55:00 - [35] Really if this annoys you either: A. you need to get out more' B. you need to play less C. you need to do some anger management for getting frustrated by this Someone makes a mistake and hands more isk to you then he wanted.Fine , his mistake and up to you to decide if you want to give it back.That simple. If i pay too much in a shop like you tried to grasp from irl then yes it is up to the seller to be honest and give it back to me , but it was MY mistake wich I will take blame for and the consequences.And that would be if it was RL , in this case it's just a game.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:17:00 - [36] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 13:19:24 Originally by: flakeys ... You are a pirate in disguise!! I tell you something, and to help you to become a real outlaw: Give me all your ISK. Once we laugh as a consequence of your mistake of giving all your money to me, and I promise you will get a receipt to prove of having made the biggest mistake in your life and so you can blame yourself, will you be so broke that you start robbing others. In the meantime, let others discuss the injustice of this system. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Elii Witherworth Gallente Solar Excavations Ultd. Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:24:00 - [37] Edited by: Elii Witherworth on 14/07/2009 13:25:51 First of all, LMAO!! Secondly, it's not a bug... Third: Quote: Originally by: LaVista Vista It's designed to mimic a stock market in Rl. But it just so happens to stop laundering through the market. Does it? What if I tell you to set up a sell order, and I set up one as well, but far over-priced? I would buy from my own sell order, the item will be taken from your order and you receive the money. There you go. I have given you a huge amount of money. First of all, why the HELL would you buy the more expensive item??? That is 100% stupidity... It's the buyers fault in that case, a situation of idiocracy not bugocity... I do see where you are comming from though... While I don't mind keeping the extra idk, I know a few of my friends who would mind... You (as the seller) have the option to either pay them back or ignore it... Fourth of all, ITS NOT ALWAYS A MISTAKE! I've placed plenty of regional or ranged buy orders without realizing that there were cheaper items. Whoops, my bad! But guess what? I didn't have to go through the process of finding and buying each and every order, and I still MADE MY PROFIT! In fact, you taking the time to convo me about my mistake would probably cost me more than you would send back from what I was WILLING to pay... The market only places orders and such of the amount the buyer is willing to pay... Which means they aren't making a mistake paying that much, it's the mistake that you end up with it... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Proud member of the Witherworth Family! Current members: Elii, Moishe, Ezekiel, Obadiah, and Zechariah.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Whitehound And what about buy orders? Do they give me less when I try to sell to an under-priced buy order? No, the game does pick the best available price! So stop pretending that this would be some miracle payment system when it is a bug. Originally by: Midas Man wrong again, if i right click an item hit sell. type 0.01 and hit sell. I will sell my product to the highest buy order which could be 1,000,000,000 isk, guess how much i will recieve.... 0.01isk which is exactly what i asked for, no bug no faulty UI just random stupidity from me. Originally by: Whitehound That is not same. I might as well hit "trash item" and I would not count it as a bug. You just make up one reason after another to cash in. Fine, be a trader with no morals. I choose to be different. What is not the same???? If you hit trash item no bug if you hit sell for 0.01 isk it is WTF are you on about???? you think buy orders dont fill if you put a lower price. Reread the thread clearly you haven't got the faintest idea how the market works or how it should work. Yet you think you can claim something is a bug. You have no reading comprehension but you call others for it. There are 2-3 fail safes inbuilt into eve to stop you selling for less than intended or buying for more than intended. 1) you choose which order to buy/sell from. 2) a dialog box is then shown, showing exactly what your buying/selling for. 3) if you offering well above market price a Warning box is shown asking if you completely sure.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 12:55:16 Originally by: Lord Fitz They're in your interest. There's no way to tell who you are buying off on the market until after the fact. Customer loyalty is thus worthless. Many of your customers will be drunken idiots, and many of the rest will just be full-time idiots. No, I have no interest to profit from a mistake someone makes. As I said, I do not bother with the small amounts, but I do care when it sticks out. As such do I call this a bug. If it was not for this "intended feature" then we would not be arguing about it. People would pay exactly the price an item is being offered for and there would be no reason for a debate, a refund or whatever. In one word, it would be just. Just because you don't want it, doesn't mean it's not in your interest. If you're expecting 'just' you're in the wrong game, if you hadn't noticed. I think it would be unjust for your broker to sell your item for less than someone indicated they were willing to pay.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:57:00 - [40] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 14:02:35 Originally by: Midas Man What is not the same???? Because with buy orders it picks the best price for you automatically and with sell orders it does not. Just to repeat myself, this is not about buying from the wrong seller or the wrong sell order. I do not care if someone gets it wrong to pick the best price. It would be nice if the system would be smarter, but that is just on the side. The point is that the item is taken of the best-priced stock, while the price comes from the stock the buyer selected. If a buyer selects the order with a too high price then the buyer should also get the item from the stock he or she selected. Most orders are not scams, yet this feature gives more credit to the owner of the best-priced order then he or she deserves. And to call this a fix to prevent scams, while the item is taken from someone else and the ridiculous high price is still being paid cannot be a fix. It should never be paid in this case and if the item is taken of the best-priced stock then the buyer should only pay the best-price, too. If not then the average price. You do not stop money laundry by transferring the money to some other account. People are being made part of the scam or just need to give it back anyway! For some this is difficult to understand as they only see a plus in their wallet, and others may not dare to ask for a refund ashamed of their mistake. But I do hope that some of you understand this small and rather subtle misbehaviour. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
flakeys Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:58:00 - [41] Edited by: flakeys on 14/07/2009 14:05:02 Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 13:19:24 Originally by: flakeys ... You are a pirate in disguise!! I tell you something, and to help you to become a real outlaw: Give me all your ISK. Once we laugh as a consequence of your mistake of giving all your money to me, and I promise you will get a receipt to prove of having made the biggest mistake in your life and so you can blame yourself, will you be so broke that you start robbing others. In the meantime, let others discuss the injustice of this system. Frist off , pirate? hahahahaa Ok , second i lost at least 8 billion isk with stupidity , mistakes like above and others.I have never seen this other then my own mistake.Those blaiming it on the game or mechanics or bugs or what the hell else are just too bigheaded to face it as their own damn fault. I have been 'broke' as you state for about 10 times in my eve time and every time i came back stronger out of it.Never had to loan anything and more important :'No i did never ransom anyone, scam anyone '. Ow and , do people still roleplay , damn that's cute. Edit: as a proof this is one of MANY many stupid things i done : noob
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 14:07:00 - [42] Originally by: flakeys Ow and , do people still roleplay , damn that's cute. I am not role playing nor is justice an element of role playing. It may surprise you, but justice is universal! There have been other minor bugs in the market system in the past. For example were some taxes taken off ones account before the transaction and not after as it should be. In a few cases did this make a difference. So, it may just be another one of those odd misbehaviours which need to be straighten out. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
lacretia	Posted - 2009.07.14 14:31:00 - [43] After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about... If your problem is that the broker wont find you "the best buy" on the market, then tough. Think of what would happen if that happened... I set up a buy order for 10 isk...you set up a buy order for 9.9 isk...you get more product because I only get items that sell for >exactly< 10 isk. You, who are willing to pay less, get all the items. But then, someone comes in and sets a buy order for 9.8 isk, he therefore gets all the items, and you only get items that sell for 9.9 isk. See where this is going? Buy orders would be so slow to fill it would be sick. When someone clicks an item to sell, it gives them the best offer currently out there on their item. If you happen to be willing to offer more than me, then you will get the item...otherwise tough.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:01:00 - [44] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 15:01:16 Originally by: lacretia After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about... An example: Seller A is offering 100 items for 10 ISK. Seller B is offering the same items for 11 ISK and holds 200 of them. Seller A is has the better price ... You want to buy 10 items and select to buy from seller B - why does not matter. What matters is that both, seller A and seller B, are in range and both are valid suppliers. What happens is this: - You pay 110 ISK for 10 items. - Seller A loses 10 items, has now 90, and receives 110 ISK. - Seller B still has 200 items left. What it means is that seller A not only beats seller B in the competition, because he offers a lower price. He gets rid of his stock, too, while seller B is not selling anything. Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock. Not only can seller B not sell his stock, but seller A gets to sell the item for the price of seller B. To the buyer does this make little difference. I believe both sellers need to be at the same station and that the buyer now does not need to go searching for his 10 items. So now seller A can have a laugh, because he gets rid of his stock and makes an extra profit. Seller B most likely never gets wind of it. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:08:00 - [45] This is my first post in an utterly useless thread that a lot of people are using to waste time. Will it be my last? Wait and see~! ------------------------------------- NECB
flakeys Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:09:00 - [46] Originally by: Whitehound I am not role playing Yes you are , you are calling me a pirate
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Daeva Vios This is my first post in an utterly useless thread that a lot of people are using to waste time. Will it be my last? Wait and see~! He is a rather stubborn troll, since he refuses to accept the correct answer.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Daeva Vios Will it be my last? Wait and see~! Will it be your last? Not if you want to make a point. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 - [49] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Daeva Vios Will it be my last? Wait and see~! Will it be your last? Not if you want to make a point. Her point is already better than your point.
flakeys Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:11:00 - [50] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Daeva Vios This is my first post in an utterly useless thread that a lot of people are using to waste time. Will it be my last? Wait and see~! He is a rather stubborn troll, since he refuses to accept the correct answer. is it the number 5?
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:19:00 - [51] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 15:01:16 Originally by: lacretia After this many posts I am still just trying to figure out what the op is complaining about... An example: Seller A is offering 100 items for 10 ISK. Seller B is offering the same items for 11 ISK and holds 200 of them. Seller A is has the better price ... You want to buy 10 items and select to buy from seller B - why does not matter. What matters is that both, seller A and seller B, are in range and both are valid suppliers. What happens is this: - You pay 110 ISK for 10 items. - Seller A loses 10 items, has now 90, and receives 110 ISK. - Seller B still has 200 items left. What it means is that seller A not only beats seller B in the competition, because he offers a lower price. He gets rid of his stock, too, while seller B is not selling anything. Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock. Not only can seller B not sell his stock, but seller A gets to sell the item for the price of seller B. To the buyer does this make little difference. I believe both sellers need to be at the same station and that the buyer now does not need to go searching for his 10 items. So now seller A can have a laugh, because he gets rid of his stock and makes an extra profit. Seller B most likely never gets wind of it. The stupid. It hurts. The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist. If the buyer had been fully informed, he would have bought from Seller A. Period. He was NOT fully informed, which is common to many losses in Eve and is a "working as intended" mechanic of a game where knowledge is power. "Instead is seller A getting the money for which seller B is offering his stock." -- This is patently false. Seller A got money for which he exchanged his items, he just got overpaid. Seller B loses either way for having the higher price listed, since an informed buyer would have bought from Seller A anyway. Is your suggestion that sellers who list their items for the lowest price not sell them if the buyer for some reason wants to buy them for more? Really? Have you not given any thought to the ISK-laundering can of worms that opens? Have you not considered that it would motivate folks even more to post silly sell orders for 1,000x or 1,000,000x the market price? I mean, several of my characters have a few dozen orders free, so maybe I should go sell EMP S charges for 4,000,000 ISK? What's to dissuade me since I know that there's now a chance that some idiot will pick the order and I will profit? Look, you've been in this game over four months now. If you don't already know that Eve is an unforgiving, but ultimately fair game, then this is your wake-up call. There is nothing headed down the path you suggest except for even more exploitation of the clueless and chaos in the market. TLDR version: No. Please don't interrupt the adults while they're talking. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:21:00 - [52] just to clarify whitehound yesterday i was going to put 6 Low-grade slave Alpha's on the market, in my rush of getting all orders checked and new stock listed in the 30 mins or so i get I selected sell on Low-grade slave beta's and oops sold all 6 to buy orders for ~16m each highest buys were ~24mil. No big deal, my mistake i selected the wrong product and I ignored the dialog box which include info telling me I was selling Beta's not Alpha's. Nothing in Eve forces anyone to sell or buy at a price they haven't had chance double or treble check. Pull out all the examples you want but there is not 1 instance where you can sell at the wrong price without being given numerous ways to spot your error, and thats what it is a USER error not a bug. As you brought real life into it earlier....If you are short changed in a shop (ie you pay more than you wanted) and you leave the store, see what happens when you go back in. The store owner will likely tell you he give you the right change and in future you should check your change before leaving the store. If someone pays you too much in eve they should have checked before clicking OK. There is no bug at work there is no bad mechanics at work. The market is designed in very easy to understand and easy to use manner whereby any error is down to the user and not the interface/program.
lacretia	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:23:00 - [53] Here is an idea! I'll send you a gazillion real life dollars for 1 trillion isk. I will then place 1 unit of tritanium on the market in Rens for 1 Trillion isk...that way, all you have to do is buy that 1 unit from me and Ill have the isk! ...oh wait...you mean that isk would go to someone who was "honestly" trading within the bounds of the game? I wouldn't get my trillion isk? Well...I guess we shouldn't deal in real money then... :sarcasm off: The market isnt like Wal-Mart...its more like wal-street. You have a selling price, and a buying price. To the system, who is behind those buy/sell orders is invisible until after the sale...and rightly so, as in the example above.
Dzil Caldari StrwBerry Pancakes	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:40:00 - [54] I'd prefer if we're going to invest dev time on the market side, that we improve the interfacing of the contract system. Fixing people being stupid goes against the spirit of EVE. ---------------------- Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m for 7+ standings ----------------------
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:54:00 - [55] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:01:29 Originally by: Paul Clavet The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist. That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers. If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:11:00 - [56] You can go ahead, I'll keep making the occasional extra isk that way thank you very much.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:12:00 - [57] Originally by: Whitehound That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers. If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No. What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread.
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:25:00 - [58] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:01:29 Originally by: Paul Clavet The reason why the buyer acts against his own interest DOES matter, because your implication that there might be reasons for his action other than his own clumsiness or ignorance suggests that there is ethical complexity to the issue that does not exist. That is nonsense. There is no reason why only one seller shall profit from a mistake made by a buyer, which is likely the result of having too many offers. If anyone deserves to profit of the mistake then it is the seller who got selected. Just like in real-life, when you walk into a shop and when you can get it cheaper from another shop, but just have not found that other shop. Does the shop you do not know about then get to make the deal? No. You keep making these comparisons to the quick-mart at the corner, instead of the commodities market that the eve market more closely resembles. All items in eve are commodities, that is, they are homogeneous in nature and there is no differentiation between your 1MN Afterburner I and mine. You also did not address the issues with your proposed solution and the issues it will cause. Most offensive is your ignorance of the effect this will have on the scammers that you so despise... Do you think that this will increase them, or decrease them? ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:34:00 - [59] Originally by: Midas Man What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread. OK, I feel for our OP's tender heart... But my problem with the market is it should show Who is selling it and let me choose who I buy from. I don't want to be funding my enemy after all. Although I do love selling ammo to my enemies, killing them and looting it from their wrecks and reselling it to them over and over. Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Midas Man What is nonesence is the fact many people have explained that the reason for this is RMT's can easily abuse it. Either you are a RMT and thats why you want this change or your a troll ignoring the answers you have been given and carring on adding nothing further apart from restating a point that has been well and truely refuted many times already this thread. Oh, really? I have filed it now as a bug. I do not expect you to understand it. I want a more just system, because I get a lot of money this way into my account, which is rightfully not mine. Most I keep, because it is just a small amounts and the sum only piles up. Just sometimes does a larger payment stand out. If you should ever pay me too much and I notice it will you, too, get an e-mail in which I tell you about it. And you will get your money back. All the best to you. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:43:00 - [61] Originally by: Whitehound Oh, really? I have filed it now as a bug. I do not expect you to understand it. I want a more just system, because I get a lot of money this way into my account, which is rightfully not mine. Most I keep, because it is just a small amounts and the sum only piles up. Just sometimes does a larger payment stand out. If you should ever pay me too much and I notice it will you, too, get an e-mail in which I tell you about it. And you will get your money back. All the best to you. Good luck with that. if you ever get a payment from me and refund it i will send you back double the amount and tell you my stupidity let me off lightly first time round.
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:43:00 - [62] If you can't stand it, just give the large sums back. If someone buys from a order that is just a bit above yours it's generally because they are lazy, I've bought from higher sell orders plenty of times because I was lazy. Just let the small ones rest and give the big ones back. Or don't you notice it if someone buys 1000 missiles for 120 million instead of 120k?
lacretia	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:43:00 - [63] You have got to be a Troll...and a darn good one. The system isnt broken. The eve marketplace inst modeled after ye'Olde auction house in WoW/FFXI/LOTR...nor is it modeled after Wal-Mart. It is modeled after Wall-Street lined with barbed wire and land mines. Learn to adapt, stop being a "I r meke 2 much moenies" and go sell some flippin veldspar.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:44:00 - [64] Edited by: Breaker77 on 14/07/2009 16:44:46 Edited by: Breaker77 on 14/07/2009 16:44:37 Originally by: Whitehound I have filed it now as a bug. I can't wait for CCP to bring out the banstickÖ for the RMTer.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:52:00 - [65] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:55:18 Originally by: Paul Clavet You also did not address the issues with your proposed solution and the issues it will cause. Most offensive is your ignorance of the effect this will have on the scammers that you so despise... Do you think that this will increase them, or decrease them? Well, you are wrong. I did mention how to fix it. You only need to think it over. Do not think too much of people making mistakes and deserving to be punished for their mistakes. That is the greed in the people talking. It is not how the world works, really. And regarding the "Wallstreet market and mine field"-analogy will I include CCP in my prayers tonight. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 16:55:18 Originally by: Paul Clavet You also did not address the issues with your proposed solution and the issues it will cause. Most offensive is your ignorance of the effect this will have on the scammers that you so despise... Do you think that this will increase them, or decrease them? Well, you are wrong. I did mention how to fix it. You only need to think it over. Do not think too much of people making mistakes and deserving to be punished for their mistakes. That is the greed in the people talking. It is not how the world works, really. And regarding the "Wallstreet market and mine field"-analogy will I include CCP in my prayers tonight. OP is now pretty clearly a troll. ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:01:00 - [67] Originally by: Whitehound Do not think too much of people making mistakes and deserving to be punished for their mistakes. This is not greed talking, but CCP. CCP has stated over and over that they will not step in to stop scamming, trading, or anything else as long as it is not breaking anything in the EULA or using an exploit. People make a mistake on the market, they better learn from it real quick.
RothimusPrime Honored By Death	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:02:00 - [68] This has to be the worst, most pointless thread I have ever read in MD. However, I do love reading the OPs defenses and futile attempts at defining this as a bug.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:03:00 - [69] Originally by: lacretia The system isnt broken. The eve marketplace inst modeled after ye'Olde auction house in WoW/FFXI/LOTR...nor is it modeled after Wal-Mart. It is modeled after Wall-Street lined with barbed wire and land mines. The problem is on Wall-Street if someone comes to you and you quote him 5 times more then what someone else is offering, the broker doesn't turn around and say - Here take the amount I quoted you and go to this guy and buy them there for the quoted price I gave you. Because that is exactly what happens here. I've always disliked this "feature" of EVE because in the toted "Free Market and Economy" this is the single most controlling feature of them all. Imagine if the market in EVE was converted to real life, there would be all hell breaking lose all over the planet within minutes. How the devs justify it is out of unspoken pure laziness rather then any real reasoning behind it. Because it certainly doesn't stop ISK seller that's pretty clear so why have it this way.. You simply don't. You know the ONLY thing, the very very very only thing that make me change my mind is even a more simple market system based off EVE's concept. "I want to buy x number of items and my high limit is y price, and/or z amount spend" I want to buy 50,000 standard missiles, I'm willing to go as high as 35,000 ISK per unit, but I only want 50,000 of them, buy all my missile at whatever price you can (Go from cheapest to highest) and stop when I get to 50,000 units. It then goes out and pays from cheapest to highest 50,000 missiles but I only pay what they are selling for. Personally this is more n00b friendly so it reduces that steep learning curve, and it makes it considerably more simple and easy to use all the way around. The system they have in place doesn't even benefit scammers in this way, it benefits the "Cheapest" seller. It's probably the most contributing factor to 0.01 ISK Wars in the game. Why CCP have a system in place that forces market campers to camp heaps of orders every 5 minutes loading up the database with useless records is beyond me. Amarr for Life
Ellmar	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:21:00 - [70] It's fundamental to the economy of eve and you're arogant to think you got more of an clue than the devs. I'll asume someone has already explained why in this thread a bunch of times but that you've ignored it. This way I can stop reading this thread right now.
Zero Uptick	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:06:00 - [71] posting in a stealth begging thread
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:06:00 - [72] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: lacretia The system isnt broken. The eve marketplace inst modeled after ye'Olde auction house in WoW/FFXI/LOTR...nor is it modeled after Wal-Mart. It is modeled after Wall-Street lined with barbed wire and land mines. The problem is on Wall-Street if someone comes to you and you quote him 5 times more then what someone else is offering, the broker doesn't turn around and say - Here take the amount I quoted you and go to this guy and buy them there for the quoted price I gave you. Because that is exactly what happens here. I've always disliked this "feature" of EVE because in the toted "Free Market and Economy" this is the single most controlling feature of them all. Imagine if the market in EVE was converted to real life, there would be all hell breaking lose all over the planet within minutes. How the devs justify it is out of unspoken pure laziness rather then any real reasoning behind it. Because it certainly doesn't stop ISK seller that's pretty clear so why have it this way.. You simply don't. You know the ONLY thing, the very very very only thing that make me change my mind is even a more simple market system based off EVE's concept. "I want to buy x number of items and my high limit is y price, and/or z amount spend" I want to buy 50,000 standard missiles, I'm willing to go as high as 35,000 ISK per unit, but I only want 50,000 of them, buy all my missile at whatever price you can (Go from cheapest to highest) and stop when I get to 50,000 units. It then goes out and pays from cheapest to highest 50,000 missiles but I only pay what they are selling for. Personally this is more n00b friendly so it reduces that steep learning curve, and it makes it considerably more simple and easy to use all the way around. The system they have in place doesn't even benefit scammers in this way, it benefits the "Cheapest" seller. It's probably the most contributing factor to 0.01 ISK Wars in the game. Why CCP have a system in place that forces market campers to camp heaps of orders every 5 minutes loading up the database with useless records is beyond me. This is far and away the most (only) useful thing posted in this thread thus far. And I'm really not sure I agree. Second post in useless thread, and for the record I didn't know I would be posting until I did! ------------------------------------- NECB
ingenting 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:09:00 - [73] Edited by: ingenting on 14/07/2009 18:09:47 working as intended, let it die in silence... _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM... Told you, newb."
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 19:17:00 - [74] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 19:25:51 Originally by: Zero Uptick posting in a stealth begging thread In fact, I do feel like a beggar. I feel like I am receiving charity or a tip. I am surprised by how anyone can compare this to today's real-world trading, but it would explain the global financial crisis. If it is not your money then why care about who gets how much? The best comparison I can come up with is that of an ancient fur market, and where people have no concept of maths beyond their ten fingers. Where the size and quality of a fur is being ignored for the sake of coming to a deal, and not to fight over each one, because the only sharp thing each one has is a knife and not so much a sharp mind. What does not fit into this picture is the accuracy with which each of these transactions are being logged. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2009.07.14 19:30:00 - [75] Edited by: Daeva Vios on 14/07/2009 19:34:21 Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 19:26:52 Originally by: Zero Uptick posting in a stealth begging thread In fact, I do feel like a beggar. I feel like I am receiving charity or a tip. In fact (lol) you are receiving a tip for the services you provide. You keep prices matched to the value of the items you are trading in, whether that is your ultimate purpose or not. This keeps markets stable relative to supply and demand, which is not to be underestimated. Visit a system where traders don't generally hang out and you'll find the price situation wildly out of balance. People will be paying far too much for items that are relatively common elsewhere, and will be paid far too little for rare items. Retail does indeed have a purpose. The fact that you are performing this service out of the goodness of your heart and with pure intentions means that you're either a saint or an idiot. I've placed my bet on which. Edit: Shamelessly feeding trolls. Edit Redux: Third post in useless thread. ------------------------------------- NECB
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 19:49:00 - [76] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 19:53:15 Originally by: Daeva Vios In fact (lol) you are receiving a tip for the services you provide. You almost got me there! I shall see it as a tip if I do not want to see it as an intended feature ..., and keep my mouth shut about this bug, right? (sarcasm)If you really want to get me to your side then you need to bribe me. Let us say half of all your ISK. You will get a receipt, too.(/sarcasm) -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Seleucid Secundus	Posted - 2009.07.14 20:01:00 - [77] This thread is painful but strangly entertaining to read. Guys, if this nub hasn't gotten the point after 3 pages of people telling him that its not a bug and that its part of the game, he never will. Lets just move on and watch him cry as he makes unintentional profit off of other peoples stupid mistakes
Paul Clavet Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.14 20:44:00 - [78] Originally by: Seleucid Secundus This thread is painful but strangly entertaining to read. Guys, if this nub hasn't gotten the point after 3 pages of people telling him that its not a bug and that its part of the game, he never will. Lets just move on and watch him cry as he makes unintentional profit off of other peoples stupid mistakes Hear, hear! I just betcha that the OP is living in a country that once thrived off the back of... gasp... the slave trade! I wonder if he thinks about ending it all every morning, just because he ended up benefiting from an injustice... ---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.07.14 22:57:00 - [79] Stop. Feeding. Trolls. =P
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.07.14 23:40:00 - [80] you have 4 options 1) give the cash back 2) send the cash to one of the developer characters. 3) give the cash to one of the "contests" 4) suck it up and just realise that some people should not play drunk. **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.14 23:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Steve Thomas just realise that some people should not play QFT
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.14 23:51:00 - [82] Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 23:55:02 Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Stop. Feeding. Trolls. =P Stop calling me or whoever a troll. Instead, use your remaining brain cells to explain to me what this feature's intention is. If it is intended to support your greediness then this thread proves that there is no need for that. You need to give me a better explanation. We are still in Market Discussion and I am aware that I will find more competitors than buyers here. I do not think that it needs much persuasion to get the mass of buyers onto my side when I tell them that they could get a better price and that it would continue to be fair but only the traders wish to keep exploiting them. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Seleucid Secundus	Posted - 2009.07.15 00:24:00 - [83] Its not considered a feature, its just part of the market. Its not intended to do anything except tell unobserving people to pay attention when they buy/sell stuff. Well, maybe you could consider it a feature cause i (and other traders) use it to buy many items at different prices all at once with one buy order. Umm, just cause some person missused this feature and gave you more money that you expected is a 'problem'???? what?! They learned from their mistake and wont do it again, 'problem' solved. So please, please, end this pleasure/pain entertainment and kill this thread, pretty please?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.15 00:35:00 - [84] Originally by: Whitehound Instead, use your remaining brain cells to explain to me what this feature's intention is. I alone have told you 3 times that it's to stop RMT through the market. Others have told you that as well. You are the troll as you fit the defination of it. Quote: a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or collaborative content community with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion Hopefully the mods will lock this already.
Zamaranth Sesta	Posted - 2009.07.15 01:45:00 - [85] Whether the OP is a troll or not, I do think there are some issues with the current system that he sort of brought up. Something just doesn't make sense that huge amounts of money would be spendable with the same ease that smaller amounts... or maybe there should be some sort of system to help players out a bit. I can't just go accidently spend $300k online instead of $300 at amazon or somewhere else. First off, my credit cards aren't that high, but even if it were a $3000 payment there would be more clicks. The OP did bring up some Interface issues that would leed to mistakes. An Interface problem isn't quite a bug, but its on that order, its a design flaw. He brought up issues of items moving as refreshing and he also brought up the text size that make it more likely to make a mistake. There is a confirmation screen, and people really need to be careful to read it. It bothers me, that I know that eventually I'll make a multy 10s of million isk mistake when I'm rapidly clicking through what should be a very minor purchase. The problem with the design is that you need to be just as extremely careful making a 10k isk purchase as a 100million one. That sort of accident just can't happen going to the Home Depot ... the possibility of mistakes is the type of play design issue that game developers would be well within their calling to optimize. I am really concerned that as my savings grow into the billions that a momentary bit of haste could cost me months of play...and on what I regarded as a tiny transaction. I should think that people should be able to lock down their money into seperate accounts, so I' could only put 30 million in my main account and only transfer more money in when I was about to make a larger transaction. Of course, those of you routinely working with more may op to keep your billions accessable with a click but others of us might want to be more cautious. I don't know what the solution is to having small type or moving items on a list making what should be a small purchase into millions but in RL there are all sorts of checks on this and there could be some mechanics placed to slow people down even farther than the first confirmation screen when a purchase is an order of magnitude above average exchange values in the database.
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.07.15 01:58:00 - [86] Originally by: Dzil I'd prefer if we're going to invest dev time on the market side, that we improve the interfacing of the contract system. Fixing people being stupid goes against the spirit of EVE. ^^^THIS^^^ exactly- improve the contract interface a bit And for the love of veld can we stop spewing nonsense about the (non)broken market mechanics? Ive heard some lame crap in my day but even i have to admit the "this guy paid me too much and now im a sad panda" makes me want to puke. Your stuff iz mine through actions
Drab Cane Mining Emporium inc.	Posted - 2009.07.15 03:22:00 - [87] Just another point of view in an epic troll thread: When a buyer selects a sell order to buy from, having the market select the sell order with the lowest price in the same station (instead of the selected order) rewards the seller for being more competitive. By letting the buyer buy at the price he selected, the market honors the buyer's free will. He must have wanted to pay that price, 'cause that's the price he selected. My sympathy goes out to Whitehound, who must have spent days reviewing his transaction history and his spreadsheets, to figure out where the extra ISK came from. When it comes to spreadsheets in space, chaos reigns. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.07.15 03:32:00 - [88] Originally by: Drab Cane My sympathy goes out to Whitehound, who must have spent days reviewing his transaction history and his spreadsheets, to figure out where the extra ISK came from. When it comes to spreadsheets in space, chaos reigns. lol +1
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.15 05:11:00 - [89] Edited by: Whitehound on 15/07/2009 05:13:51 Originally by: Breaker77 I alone have told you 3 times that it's to stop RMT through the market. Others have told you that as well. Look, only because you tell me this a thousand times does not make it true. I have explained to you how it does not stop it and how it can be used to transfer large sums of money from one account to another. The fact that I and others do get huge sums from almost out of no where is proof enough to see that it does not stop these transfers. So why do you insist that this is its intention when I and others have proof of it not working as you say? You walk around with a frog on your nose and think that it is part of your face. These transactions are what they are. They are inaccurate and false, because you have no explanation as to why you get this money. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.15 05:58:00 - [90] Originally by: Drab Cane By letting the buyer buy at the price he selected, the market honors the buyer's free will. He must have wanted to pay that price, 'cause that's the price he selected. Why does the market honour a buyer's free will when it comes to his money, but ignores it when it comes to the item? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
CornerStoner	Posted - 2009.07.15 06:38:00 - [91] Stop comparing EVE markets to RL markets. ItÆs ridiculous, irrational and irritating. YouÆre complaining about making extra ISK via the current market mechanics! (At least I think thatÆs your point...reading your posts is akin to staring at the sun.) Is it æjustÆ that someone can suicide gank your hauler in Jita? I donÆt see you calling that a bug. Consider this: I need 10 million units of item A. The first 5 lowest sell orders only have quantities of 5 thousand or so. The 6th lowest sell order has a quantity of 9 million available. I donÆt much care if I pay 1000ISK more per unitàIÆd rather have the convenience of buying from 2 orders rather than 6. You get a windfall because I value my time more than ISK (or IÆm just lazy). Everyone sells their product and I leave as a happy customer. WhatÆs the problem? I can solve your problem: Stop placing sell orders and sell only to buy orders.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.15 08:36:00 - [92] Edited by: Whitehound on 15/07/2009 08:42:45 Originally by: CornerStoner Stop comparing EVE markets to RL markets. ItÆs ridiculous, irrational and irritating. Despite that you have said that you do not care about how much you pay, at which point nothing more needs to be said, allow me to ask you a question: Why is it that a rookie ship cannot produce an occasional hit of 15000 points of damage? I tell you why. Because we consider it to be physically impossible. Just like one cannot blow up a nuclear power plant only by shooting at it with a 9mm pistol. Yet we are only moving pixels across a screen. Do not tell me that it is ridiculous, irrational and irritating to compare EVE's market to the real world. The rules of the real world we apply to EVE is what makes EVE fun. Only where it becomes a futuristic space simulation do we use science fiction to explain what cannot be explained. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Fekka Lumberjack Industries	Posted - 2009.07.15 11:24:00 - [93] Just consider the market in EvE a sience fiction thing too then. Maybe a market works just better like it is in EvE and why is just beyond our comprehension. Maybe you will understand in 500 years. Please let me know then.
Drab Cane Mining Emporium inc.	Posted - 2009.07.15 22:35:00 - [94] Originally by: Whitehound Why does the market honour a buyer's free will when it comes to his money, but ignores it when it comes to the item? The market is not a human being and has no conscience. It has no understanding of free will or honour. Please forgive my inexact wording. Of course the game servers and the programs they run have no soul, and no conscience. One could say the same of the game developers that design and create the software. :) But it is the game developers who select which actions to allow, which actions to reward, which actions to penalize, and which actions to ignore. I can only speculate what the dev-gods exact purposes are. Its safe to say that they want to promote free will among the players, while at the same time curtailing those actions which would allow a player an unfair advantage. The buyer chooses to buy item X for amount Y from station Z. The game allows him to buy item X for amount Y from station Z. So what if the game allocated the order to the person with the lowest sell order in station? The buyer got what he wanted, the seller with the lowest price in station got his stuff sold. End of story. Whitehound, I understand your frustration, this doesn't appear fair to you. Plus its mucking with your spreadsheets. But if you'd listen and try to understand the other points of view, I think you'd realize that the players that do not agree with you are not thieves, and that there are valid reasons why the market works the way it does. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six	Posted - 2009.07.16 00:10:00 - [95] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 14/07/2009 23:55:02 Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Stop. Feeding. Trolls. =P Stop calling me or whoever a troll. Instead, use your remaining brain cells to explain to me what this feature's intention is. If it is intended to support your greediness then this thread proves that there is no need for that. You need to give me a better explanation. We are still in Market Discussion and I am aware that I will find more competitors than buyers here. I do not think that it needs much persuasion to get the mass of buyers onto my side when I tell them that they could get a better price and that it would continue to be fair but only the traders wish to keep exploiting them. No, you're a troll. Many explanations have been given and you've ignored them. It's all very simple. The question has been asked many times previously, and CCP themselves have stated that it is implemented as they intended. You can read whatever meaning you wish upon that -- several good reasons have been given here. EVE is not about being fair or just, it is about being EVE.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 01:51:00 - [96] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 01:54:57 Originally by: Selene D'Celeste No, you're a troll. Many explanations have been given and you've ignored them. It's all very simple. The question has been asked many times previously, and CCP themselves have stated that it is implemented as they intended. You can read whatever meaning you wish upon that -- several good reasons have been given here. EVE is not about being fair or just, it is about being EVE. CCP cannot explain it, which is why they say that it is intended. Why do you not ask them what the intention is? It would make it a lot easier. You could give me an explanation and would not have to explain it to yourself as "EVE being EVE". We pay money for this game and at least deserve an answer that makes sense. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.07.16 02:04:00 - [97] Oh my god you're stupid.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.07.16 02:17:00 - [98] lol You are an idiot. Period. CCP said it's working as intended We have explained to you what that intention is You're ignoring it You sir, do not belong here, just go, please go and play in C&P. They love to entertain noobs like yourself.
Kapila Parthalan Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.16 02:28:00 - [99] While I disagree with the OP's arguments, I do think the current system could be improved. If you place a buy order at a higher price than the lowest sell order, then the item should be taken from this sell order, as it currently is. However, instead of paying your buy order price, the price could be their sell order price. This would allow you to quickly buy up multiple sell orders at varying prices without paying extra, while the sellers would get the price they ask for. It would also prevent RMT transactions at least as effectively as the current system. The same idea applies when you place a sell order at a lower price than the highest buy order.
Xianthar STK Scientific The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.16 02:30:00 - [100] people posting whine threads about things they benefit from, now i know Eve is dying.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:04:00 - [101] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 07:05:17 Why am I ignoring the explanations given here? I give an example to help you understand: With the next extension puts CCP propellers on all ships. With the explanations you have given me so far would you accept this. I.e., it is the same for everyone, because CCP tells you it is working as intended, and because this is EVE. You posses the exact same attitude like people, who live in a country with a corrupt government, and where everyone pays bribes, because they have come to accept it as is and think that it is fair and just. And you have the courage to call me an idiot. Now, either you take part in a discussion and come up with some good explanations or risk getting banned. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Seleucid Secundus	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:27:00 - [102] Edited by: Seleucid Secundus on 16/07/2009 07:35:25 tard, there has been a discussion, valid and GOOD explanations have been given. You just choose not to listen. The conversation is over because you obviously do not want to educate yourself. STFU, grow up, then come back and apologize for wasting everyones time.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.16 07:30:00 - [103] Guys you have been trolled and thread's been actively being bounced. Let it die, I am asking myself why I wasted these two paragraphs on this myself (answer: nothing to do at office ATM). - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.07.16 11:10:00 - [104] It's an ANONYMOUS-BEFORE-FINISH brokerage system, it's not a shopping system. In real-life, if you put up a "BUY" order at 27000 with your broker, if some other broker had his client put a "SELL" order at 30, he WILL sell at 27000, not at 30. In-game, you do exactly the same - you put up an IMMEDIATE BUY order at 27000, so the broker does exactly that, he buys immediately at the price you set, from wherever he can first. Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons. If anything, you should complain the DIFFERENCE between 30 and 27000 isn't simply kept by the broker, in other words, ISK removed from the game (because in real-life, that's probably what would happen, the broker would most likely just pocket the difference). EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.16 11:24:00 - [105] This thread is rather lame on both sides at present moment. Would suit people if they tried debating instead of contradictions.. The system is maybe working as intended and for many of the reason mentioned, it does not change the fact that it creates some rather annoying effects. One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho.. The real problem is the ****ed up price equilibrium and moving avg and statestics side of it.. It would be partly solved if CCP would make the filtering option impact the visible and interactable orders. Thus the freak prices would not show if I filtered them out by disregarding all prices outside say 500% range. The same added feature would make the low sec embargo feature possible and help in better price developments. There are still quite a lot of features in EVE that might make sense in an ad hoc manner only, and could be higly improved and rebalanced. Inexhaustible npc tradegoods.. WRONG Exhaustible mining ressources(roids) WRONG Skill limit to number of orders WRONG All these problems together is counter to logic. Sure you can adapt to these errors in judgement from ccp, and grow used to them, but they are still inherently wrong and should in time get fixed and replaced with something better. The pragmatic nature is strong in EVE players so bringing them up will often be seen as a trolling, because it changes the game more then players can accept, even though it will be an improvement to gameplay.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Akita T Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons. Name the reasons and explain how it is just. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:51:00 - [107] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan While I disagree with the OP's arguments, I do think the current system could be improved. If you place a buy order at a higher price than the lowest sell order, then the item should be taken from this sell order, as it currently is. However, instead of paying your buy order price, the price could be their sell order price. This would allow you to quickly buy up multiple sell orders at varying prices without paying extra, while the sellers would get the price they ask for. It would also prevent RMT transactions at least as effectively as the current system. The same idea applies when you place a sell order at a lower price than the highest buy order. then your just switching the arguement and instead of the seller getting the better deal the buyer does, why would that make it anymore fair? Not only that but it would require more coding and probably extra load on the server to implement a system where the broker uses AI to match bids. As CCP want to improve performance in hubs like Jita I find the current system is perfectly fair to everyone involved and keeps the game running smooth.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:06:00 - [108] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 13:12:18 Originally by: Caleb Ayrania One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho.. I am not complaining about getting some extra profit as I simply keep it and only return the sums that stand out. For the rest of your comment are you taking the thread off its topic. The market does have filtering options and my complaint is not about not being able to pay for an item. I also do not want to take a customer's liberty to pick the wrong price, even when I think it would be a nice feature if it could be avoided, it does not belong into the current discussion. It is only about the item being taken from the seller with the best price, but the price being the one price another seller is advertising his items with. I give another example. Take these two scenarios: 1.) You have two sellers A & B with prices 10 & 11 ISK. 2.) You have three sellers A, B & C with prices 10, 11 & 1000 ISK. Why is seller A making more profit in scenario 2.) than in scenario 1.) when he only needed to beat seller B and by 1 ISK? Because of this do you find sell orders on the market with only a few items but an extremely high price. These items are not meant to be sold, and cannot be bought out, but only serve to confuse the buyers. This is an abuse. This has nothing to do with fair competition or having a buyer's interest in mind any more. Now add two more scenario: 3.) You have one seller, seller A, with a price of 10 ISK. 4.) You have sellers A & B with prices 10.00 & 10.01 ISK. For the seller in scenario 3.) to profit like seller A in the first two scenarios would it require him to create an artificial competition, or to increase the price, which is the accepted practise (demand and offer). In scenario 4.) would seller A need to use a fake sell order, because he cannot increase his price, or else would lose in the competition. No matter how I turn and twist it around do I not get a 100% fair and just competition, and one which is in the interest of the buyer. The concept of markets and trading is as old as civilization itself and is meant to be fair and just. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:19:00 - [109] Edited by: Midas Man on 16/07/2009 13:20:05 Originally by: Whitehound another twist in the original argument Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer. If you want to open a shop and try to sell Mini coopers for $150,000 each there is nothing to stop you. If someone comes along and wants to buy one at $150,000 then there is nothing to stop them. Even if next door sells them at $15,000. If you really want you can go next door and say hey im rich, next door is charging $150,000 but I want to give you $150,000. There is nothing to stop you. The only thing you cannot do in real life is sell things too cheaply as it seen as a way of creating a monopoly. so if you want to keep on comparing Eve to real life complain about "mineral are free" peoples and you might get a better responce. edit replaced a wrongly placed "whatever" with a "as much"
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:19:00 - [110] And i can not for my life se how you have a problem with this... You do understand that everytime you get a heap of money that was "no really yours" you are denying them to some scammer that is trying to lure unsuspection noobs or inatentive drunks. The fact that alot of people are stupid, or inatentive (Mad raises her hand), or just lazy is not gonna change, so you should look at it this way, that you are scamming the scammer for his money, and making us all a little happier, cause i know i am. seems my 300 mill probably did not go to the stupid git with the high sell order, but the good honest trader with the lowest prized sell order, and that just made my day. That people do buy item without properly researching prices, is not your problem, and you should not beat yourself up over it, if they really cant be bothered to have a look in the market, well frankly, ** em, and for those that might do the honest mistake sometimes, through this system, they now know that most likely their hard earned isk did not just go to that low life s**scammer...
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:27:00 - [111] Originally by: Midas Man Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer. No, not if a competitor beats your prices. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
lacretia	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:29:00 - [112] 4 pages! *News Flash* some things in EvE allow predators to prey on the weak, unattentive, naive, noobish, lazy, or just plain stupid. Someone already mentioned it before...this is a sci-fi game, with a sci-fi based economy. Would it be nice if there were some changes? Sure, of course there were. But I also wish ships didnt slow down when I deactivate the AB, or MWD...and I wish projectile ammo had a travel time...as firing 150km should take a while... The system they have in place is working, and so far you are the only person to ever make a 4 page troll/gripe post about the ability to make more money off people using "DESIGNED" game mechanics. "You mean I get standing if I help a gang member out with a mission and he turns it in for both of us?!?! But I want to mindlessly grind standing on my own! I should be able to turn down standing! ohnoEs!."
lacretia	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:38:00 - [113] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Midas Man Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer. No, not if a competitor beats your prices. I paid 3.99 for a gallon of milk at the grocery store yesterday...I found out that the grocery store down the street had the same brand and the same size on sale for 2.99. I didn't get a message from my grocery store offering me my dollar back. Different stores have different prices, if you pay more at one store that is your fault. Problem is...the Market is >not< a store. It is market that asks two very simple questions. Marketing computer: How much will you pay for X item and how many? You: I will pay 10isk for it and I want 100 for a total of 1000 isk.. Marketing computer: Ok, I will buy 100 for 10isk for a total of 1000is. Marketing computer: How much will you sell item X for and how many? You: I will sell 100 for 10isk each for a total of 1000 isk. Marketing computer: Ok, I will sell 100 for 10 isk each for a total of 1000 isk. It doesnt reason, it doesnt bargain for you. Our computer "bargaining" for us takes the "player" aspect out of it...which is pretty much against what CCP wants to do.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:39:00 - [114] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Midas Man Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer. No, not if a competitor beats your prices. I'll gladly pay a higher price if I don't have to drive across town or endure overcrowded store with idiots for employees. There is always a buyer no matter the price.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:40:00 - [115] And as for your complaints as how the system works on normal trading, that is how the system works, and you learn to trade within that system, you'd be amased at how close to real this system is... it's not a supermarket, where everything is at a fixed price and a system that ensures that everone payes the fixed price... if you pay more than it was really sold for, than that was just really bad research, and you end up paying for that lack... i'm not sure, but it seems to me that you have missed some of the core concepts in eve, and that is that you are on your own, noone is gonna lay it out for you, you have to think for yourself, you have to figure it out, its not bad system design that makes you pay more for it, its your lack of lookin at the market, CCP has just designed the market to be as open as possible, giving you the ability to do what ever you want, even if its paying for for a commodity than that item was advertised if you thing its unfair that items are substracted from the lowest selling price at taht station, and not the higher priced that you clicked at, (i cant imagine why anyone would do taht at all tbh) imagine that the office of the broker with the lower price was closer to your hangar, so the market agent just wanted to save time walking all across the station, and getting you your goods much faster...
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:42:00 - [116] and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b...
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:44:00 - [117] Originally by: Mad Maulkin if you thing its unfair that items are substracted from the lowest selling price at taht station, and not the higher priced that you clicked at, (i cant imagine why anyone would do taht at all tbh) RMT is the only reason someone would be upset with the way the market works.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:49:00 - [118] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Midas Man Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer. No, not if a competitor beats your prices. obviously you still have your reading disability
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:51:00 - [119] Originally by: Mad Maulkin and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b... No, it does matter. I do get an extra profit. What you want is that it is just for some and one person at a time. What I want is that it is just for all and at all times. Justice is not bound to the seller who wins in the competition. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:55:00 - [120] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Midas Man Basicly in Real Life and in Eve you can sell whatever you want for as much you want the only thing thats stops you is lack of a buyer. No, not if a competitor beats your prices. have to agree with the above people here a store will not tell you "nonono they sell it cheaper across the street, you must go over there". A vcompetitor with a cheaper price wont help you unless you choose to buy from them.. But you are thinking in a shop mentality, this is a market system... and all market transactions are done through an agent ie the Market in eve. If you wanted to buy direclty from the person, you send a mail to them, other wise teh market agent goes to the lowest selling broker and buys from him at the price you offered, since you did not bother to check id someone acctualy offered at a lower price
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:56:00 - [121] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Mad Maulkin and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b... No, it does matter. I do get an extra profit. What you want is that it is just for some and one person at a time. What I want is that it is just for all and at all times. Justice is not bound to the seller who wins in the competition. Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!!
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:11:00 - [122] all mye spelling errors are because i get very engaged in this topic, and accordingly entusiaticaly The problem here is that we have very fundamentaly different views on how a market should function, and i personally feel that this is more realistic in teh way that it represents a open market system, while your approach will be a more person to person trading structure, and that would work if you then only could access sell and buy orders of people that are online at the time... or you are your own broker, in the market, but that would requier you to be online all the time, and since we can not, we hand our goods over to the market and its brokers, and they do our deals for us since we can not. only difference in this system, as was pointed out earlier, is that the broker does not keep the difference for, he give it all to you, minus a fee (the tax) So what we got in eve is honest brokers doing their best to get you the best deal on your goods... filling a demand put forth at the price asked. if you want to do person to person trade you should set up contracts or do it in direct trades... otherwise you work in the market system that excists... if you don't like it you have no choice than to stop trading... Cause this is the system...
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:36:00 - [123] Originally by: Mad Maulkin a store will not tell you "nonono they sell it cheaper across the street, you must go over there". A competitor with a cheaper price wont help you unless you choose to buy from them.. There is a difference. You see all the prices in front of you. There are no hidden prices and no one automatically tells you from where to get it cheaper. But you do get the item from the stock of the seller across the street and you pay him the money. You do not give your money to the shop you are in or to the broker from whom you ordered with. My transaction log as seller then shows me from whom I am getting my money, how much I have been paid and the items I have transferred to the buyer's hangar. There is no man in the middle. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:38:00 - [124] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 13:12:18 Originally by: Caleb Ayrania One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho.. I am not complaining about getting some extra profit as I simply keep it and only return the sums that stand out. For the rest of your comment are you taking the thread off its topic. The market does have filtering options and my complaint is not about not being able to pay for an item. ...STUFF Well consider myself trolled. If you read my post instead of once more explaining your POV, as if I didnt catch it the first time around, is rather meh.. It sounds as if your failing to understand why these weird prices are actually still showing up... Since as explained it is not the direct benefits of the price setter, then ofc there must be a secondary agenda. Among these are of the fact that you can aim to have lowest price all the time, this is not that likely, then second you have the manipulation of market avg, market visibility and competitions price setting. If you read my post this was what I was refering to and supporting your complain about this "feature".. The other mentioned examples was to show you that there are quite a few other game features that are added to the game with good intention but lousy effects.. On the filtering either you didnt read properly or you missed the point that its a filter only on your visible side, its not possible to get graphs and tables without the weird outlying prices, and you do risk buying from or selling to orders you can not see.. Hence not a function related filter.. The "graph griefing" prices and self concluded trades, to manipulate information and visibility is a LONG LASTING problem, that to few care about to get ccp to even look in to this issue.. (I believe I brought it up first back in 2004) - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:40:00 - [125] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!! No, one cannot win or buy justice. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:48:00 - [126] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Mad Maulkin Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!! No, one cannot win or buy justice. 1) Yes One can win Justice in a court case. and 2) Yes One can buy Justice in the corrupt country example you give above. 3) you still cannot read
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:05:00 - [127] Originally by: Midas Man 1) Yes One can win Justice in a court case. and 2) Yes One can buy Justice in the corrupt country example you give above. 1) No, you win your right in a court, but you do not win justice. 2) Justice that can be bought is not justice, because it favours the one who has the most money. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:21:00 - [128] Originally by: Whitehound 1) No, you win your right in a court, but you do not win justice. 2) Justice that can be bought is not justice, because it favours the one who has the most money. You can be guilty of a crime and be cleared in court this is not justice, So by winning a court case where you find someone guilty of a crime they commited you have won justice. In a corrupt country you can pay to ensure a guilty party is found guilty (usually in a corrupt country people pay to be cleared of crimes they did commit but that doesn't mean it cannot be the other way) And if you haven't noticed yet I'm trolling a troll

CCP Begpo KpoBu	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:50:00 - [129] Topic moved to Features and Ideas Discussion. Begpo KpoBu

Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:04:00 - [130] Originally by: CCP Begpo KpoBu Topic moved to Features and Ideas Discussion. Begpo KpoBu Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion? - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:43:00 - [131] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Originally by: CCP Begpo KpoBu Topic moved to Features and Ideas Discussion. Begpo KpoBu Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion? I wouldn't say so seeing as the op is suggesting changes to the current system
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:06:00 - [132] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons. Name the reasons and explain how it is just. For starters, because it prevents "ISK laundring" without any half-decent form of effort. As a RMT ISK seller, you can't just pretend you "bought the stuff accidentally" and the money ended up with the guy putting up the insanely high-ball order - instead, the money ends up with the best seller in the station. Because it prevents people that put insanely high-ball orders from making a profit off of unattentive buyers - again, the profit goes to the best seller in the station. IF the insanely high-ball order IS the best seller in the station, only then does he get to make a profit off of his "work". And because, quite frankly, exactly as it was intended, the LOWEST sell order should ALWAYS get the deals. Originally by: Akita T If anything, you should complain the DIFFERENCE between 30 and 27000 isn't simply kept by the broker, in other words, ISK removed from the game (because in real-life, that's probably what would happen, the broker would most likely just pocket the difference). You forgot to address this part in any way, shape or form. This would solve your "perceived problem" by only giving YOU what you asked for... while the silly buyer gets exactly what he paid for, however overpriced he wanted it to be. Or... wait, wait... you're NOT suggesting the buyer should only actually pay the lowest price instead of the price he MANUALLY SELCTED to pay ? This is not a game that has much hand-holding, if any... and this is certainly not the place to start with it. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:30:00 - [133] Originally by: Whitehound I am currently selling some missiles for about 30 ISK each and it is now the second time that someone paid 37,000.00 ISK instead, resulting each time in a payment of millions of ISK for a handful of standard missiles! Send me the ISK, and I will return it to its rightful owners. -/ the fighting republicans /-
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:18:00 - [134] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 18:25:18 Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion? I wouldn't say so seeing as the op is suggesting changes to the current system I am not suggesting immediate changes. I want to understand the intention of this "working as intended feature" and to point out the injustice it creates. Market Discussions is not the right place any more, because no one could give a meaningful answer and it has turned out to be more of a bomb shell than a topic that can actually be discussed in MD. So the topic has moved on into the forum for the discussion of features and ideas. It is what I guess. The topic does not need to have a home to be discussed. Regarding the RMTs (real money transfers) do I not care about CCP. This is an outside problem, one that is entirely CCP's problem and I am playing a game. I pay my subscription and have no business with ISK sellers. I dislike them a lot. They have ruined the local channel of some systems and now appear to have managed to corrupted the market system. I do not believe that this "feature" is intended to stop large sums from getting transferred. They still can be transferred, and if an ISK seller would have wished for a feature to blur their transfers further then CCP would have given them just the feature they needed. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:05:00 - [135] Oh my jeebus, you're still managing to string people along? 10/10; +1 internets to this troll! -SIG- The true meaning of CCP; Completely Crap Patches. Truth.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 21:39:00 - [136] Well this has been a very stimulating conversation, and i have learnd something about the market i did not know. But since you do not seem to read the replies people give you i for one am gonne say thanks for the fun, take care and bye God i hope the market system keeps buggin the hell out of you... People have answerd your questions soooo many times, but its intersteing how selective reading seem too work.. Akita T, perfect and to the point as always, you where able to say in one go what i have been stublingly trying to express...
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 21:40:00 - [137] Well this has been a very stimulating conversation, and i have learnd something about the market i did not know. But since you do not seem to read the replies people give you i for one am gonne say thanks for the fun, take care and bye God i hope the market system keeps buggin the hell out of you... People have answerd your questions soooo many times, but its intersteing how selective reading seem too work.. Akita T, perfect and to the point as always, you where able to say in one go what i have been stublingly trying to express...
Kapila Parthalan Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.17 02:07:00 - [138] Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Kapila Parthalan While I disagree with the OP's arguments, I do think the current system could be improved. If you place a buy order at a higher price than the lowest sell order, then the item should be taken from this sell order, as it currently is. However, instead of paying your buy order price, the price could be their sell order price. This would allow you to quickly buy up multiple sell orders at varying prices without paying extra, while the sellers would get the price they ask for. It would also prevent RMT transactions at least as effectively as the current system. The same idea applies when you place a sell order at a lower price than the highest buy order. then your just switching the arguement and instead of the seller getting the better deal the buyer does, why would that make it anymore fair? Not only that but it would require more coding and probably extra load on the server to implement a system where the broker uses AI to match bids. As CCP want to improve performance in hubs like Jita I find the current system is perfectly fair to everyone involved and keeps the game running smooth. I do not think it is more fair, but I think it is just as fair as the other system. I think it is a good idea because it makes it possible to fill multiple orders at once without wasting isk. This system wouldn't require any extra load or AI. The system already finds the lowest price order in the correct range. Now, instead of using the price of the sell order, it simply uses the price of the buy order. The change is extremely simple to make. I don't see where you get the idea that this would be highly complicated and make the game lag. Originally by: Akita T If anything, you should complain the DIFFERENCE between 30 and 27000 isn't simply kept by the broker, in other words, ISK removed from the game (because in real-life, that's probably what would happen, the broker would most likely just pocket the difference). This is also not a bad idea. It is more fair to both sides of the transaction than the current system.
Hykke Free Imperial Vikings	Posted - 2009.07.17 06:29:00 - [139] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan I do not think it is more fair, but I think it is just as fair as the other system. I think it is a good idea because it makes it possible to fill multiple orders at once without wasting isk. This system wouldn't require any extra load or AI. [...]. I don't see where you get the idea that this would be highly complicated and make the game lag. I have once earned several hundred million in this way because a buyer had entered one zero too many on a buy order. I think a system where the oldest order sets the price instead of the newest should be extremely simple to implement, and it should not cause any additional server stress at all. (The amount of transactions stay the same, the only difference is in the amounts). Such a system would be better for several reasons, one being that it protects you against loosing too much isk if you make a mistake. Some people would argue that you SHOULD loose isk if you make a mistake, but I think it's a good idea that the trading system at least to some extent protects against mistakes. ----------------------------------- Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum
Kurzhan Suvok Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.17 06:58:00 - [140] 1) The Market is not a store, an auction house, or a street fair. You are not directly buying items from a particular vendor nor do you sell your wares through a storefront. If you want a point of reference for what the EVE market is you need to look at a modern commodities market (without the futures trade). 2) Brokers (invisible NPCs) are the entities through which items are purchased and sold on the market. As a player you never are directly involved in the purchase or sale of an item on the market. You are only telling a broker you are willing to pay a certain price for a certain number of items or are willing to sell a set amount of items for a particular price per item. ItÆs important to understand that in addition to following normal standards and practices for a commodities market this system helps prevent significant market manipulation. If I was able to control who got the money when I placed a buy order I could, for little cost, drive the price of many items up significantly without losing the money. I could place buy orders for 100 or 1000 times the value of an item and significantly increase the preceived value of an item over a relatively short period of time. Without the intervention of a broker following strict rules to buy from the lowest priced sell order but paying whatever was offered by the buy order I could avoid losing much money and only be out a minor amount in taxes and broker fees (which can be dropped to next to nothing). The market then reports sales at inflated prices along with bloated sales volume. This is not good for a healthy economy.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.17 07:14:00 - [141] Quote: Am I complaining about getting rich? No. What I am complaining about is of involuntarily scamming of people. You didn't do anything wrong or right that caused this ...You have nothing to complain about. Like in the real world you had a choice - you could have been nice and honest and attempted to give the money back or you could have kept it. This is the part of the game I find refreshing; it doesn't try to save you from making stupid mistakes or from being dishonest. It does prove that many people want to have big brother government ...or game dev... nail down every detail of the rules and regulations so no one ever strays out of line. The shackling of your choice and staggering loss of freedom is the boring and unnecessary result. Be the honest guy if you like that approach; you may even score a permanent customer out of it.
TRD 2371	Posted - 2009.07.17 07:42:00 - [142] Edited by: TRD 2371 on 17/07/2009 07:43:48 eiter you concentrated then you wont get scammed or you are not and then you eventually be scammed....
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.07.17 20:07:00 - [143] Whitehound, You are not scamming. This is how many markets work in the real world. You offer 10 units at $5 a piece. Someone offers 15 units at $500 a piece A client walks by, sees the sale and asks for 25 units, and selects to buy them at $500. To fill his order, both offers are sold (your 10 plus the other 15) but everyone gets the $500 per unit price, a bonus for you. This is common market practice. Yes, the buyer may have made a mistake in buying them at $500 instead of $5, but that is his error, his problem, not yours. Sleep well. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.18 09:27:00 - [144] Originally by: Ozone71 This is how many markets work in the real world. ... Sleep well. Dear Ozone71, it is not how the world works. You do not get free candy and those who do not ask for more do not get more. This only works for children. Now do you want EVE do be a game for children or do you want the Real Thing(TM)? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Kapila Parthalan Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.18 12:00:00 - [145] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Ozone71 This is how many markets work in the real world. ... Sleep well. Dear Ozone71, it is not how the world works. You do not get free candy and those who do not ask for more do not get more. This only works for children. Now do you want EVE do be a game for children or do you want the Real Thing(TM)? Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.18 16:17:00 - [146] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE. He is not talking about the markets. He patronizes me. I have explained the problem several times now and will not explain it on every page again. Read the thread again. Do not simplify the problem when it requires to see details. If reading and understanding makes you tired then it is not me who needs to take a nap. Either pay attention or do not care about it, but do not tell me what is wrong or right when it is all the same to you. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Seleucid Secundus	Posted - 2009.07.19 04:01:00 - [147] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Kapila Parthalan Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE. He is not talking about the markets. He patronizes me. I have explained the problem several times now and will not explain it on every page again. Read the thread again. Do not simplify the problem when it requires to see details. If reading and understanding makes you tired then it is not me who needs to take a nap. Either pay attention or do not care about it, but do not tell me what is wrong or right when it is all the same to you. We have all explained that it is NOT a problem, MANY times on EVERY page. It is you who should re-read the thread again. Again, there is no problem as many people have told you, we have looked at all the "details". Everyone is tired from reading this because you just dont get it. You should pay attention to what people are saying. Have you noticed that you havn't convinced anyone? Do you think thats because you're smarter than everyone else, or is it because we are all so ignorant and thick headed?
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.19 04:04:00 - [148] Originally by: Seleucid Secundus We have all explained that it is NOT a problem, MANY times on EVERY page. It is you who should re-read the thread again. Again, there is no problem as many people have told you, we have looked at all the "details". Everyone is tired from reading this because you just dont get it. You should pay attention to what people are saying. Have you noticed that you havn't convinced anyone? Do you think thats because you're smarter than everyone else, or is it because we are all so ignorant and thick headed? Who are you trying to fool? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer

CCP Zymurgist Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.19 14:12:00 - [149] Thread Locked by Original Poster's request. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us


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