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This is not how I want to make money

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Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:56:00 - [121] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Mad Maulkin and in your example with the sellers it wouyld not matter with or without seller c, as you tell it cause they'd allway buy from seller a even if they try to buy from seller b... No, it does matter. I do get an extra profit. What you want is that it is just for some and one person at a time. What I want is that it is just for all and at all times. Justice is not bound to the seller who wins in the competition. Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!!
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:11:00 - [122] all mye spelling errors are because i get very engaged in this topic, and accordingly entusiaticaly The problem here is that we have very fundamentaly different views on how a market should function, and i personally feel that this is more realistic in teh way that it represents a open market system, while your approach will be a more person to person trading structure, and that would work if you then only could access sell and buy orders of people that are online at the time... or you are your own broker, in the market, but that would requier you to be online all the time, and since we can not, we hand our goods over to the market and its brokers, and they do our deals for us since we can not. only difference in this system, as was pointed out earlier, is that the broker does not keep the difference for, he give it all to you, minus a fee (the tax) So what we got in eve is honest brokers doing their best to get you the best deal on your goods... filling a demand put forth at the price asked. if you want to do person to person trade you should set up contracts or do it in direct trades... otherwise you work in the market system that excists... if you don't like it you have no choice than to stop trading... Cause this is the system...
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:36:00 - [123] Originally by: Mad Maulkin a store will not tell you "nonono they sell it cheaper across the street, you must go over there". A competitor with a cheaper price wont help you unless you choose to buy from them.. There is a difference. You see all the prices in front of you. There are no hidden prices and no one automatically tells you from where to get it cheaper. But you do get the item from the stock of the seller across the street and you pay him the money. You do not give your money to the shop you are in or to the broker from whom you ordered with. My transaction log as seller then shows me from whom I am getting my money, how much I have been paid and the items I have transferred to the buyer's hangar. There is no man in the middle. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:38:00 - [124] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 13:12:18 Originally by: Caleb Ayrania One of them is the "free profit" which is really not something to complain about imho.. I am not complaining about getting some extra profit as I simply keep it and only return the sums that stand out. For the rest of your comment are you taking the thread off its topic. The market does have filtering options and my complaint is not about not being able to pay for an item. ...STUFF Well consider myself trolled. If you read my post instead of once more explaining your POV, as if I didnt catch it the first time around, is rather meh.. It sounds as if your failing to understand why these weird prices are actually still showing up... Since as explained it is not the direct benefits of the price setter, then ofc there must be a secondary agenda. Among these are of the fact that you can aim to have lowest price all the time, this is not that likely, then second you have the manipulation of market avg, market visibility and competitions price setting. If you read my post this was what I was refering to and supporting your complain about this "feature".. The other mentioned examples was to show you that there are quite a few other game features that are added to the game with good intention but lousy effects.. On the filtering either you didnt read properly or you missed the point that its a filter only on your visible side, its not possible to get graphs and tables without the weird outlying prices, and you do risk buying from or selling to orders you can not see.. Hence not a function related filter.. The "graph griefing" prices and self concluded trades, to manipulate information and visibility is a LONG LASTING problem, that to few care about to get ccp to even look in to this issue.. (I believe I brought it up first back in 2004) - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:40:00 - [125] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!! No, one cannot win or buy justice. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:48:00 - [126] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Mad Maulkin Yes it is!! the seller with the lowest offer wins the bid! he just gets paied what the buyer is willing to buy! its waht you have been saying the whole time!!!! No, one cannot win or buy justice. 1) Yes One can win Justice in a court case. and 2) Yes One can buy Justice in the corrupt country example you give above. 3) you still cannot read
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:05:00 - [127] Originally by: Midas Man 1) Yes One can win Justice in a court case. and 2) Yes One can buy Justice in the corrupt country example you give above. 1) No, you win your right in a court, but you do not win justice. 2) Justice that can be bought is not justice, because it favours the one who has the most money. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:21:00 - [128] Originally by: Whitehound 1) No, you win your right in a court, but you do not win justice. 2) Justice that can be bought is not justice, because it favours the one who has the most money. You can be guilty of a crime and be cleared in court this is not justice, So by winning a court case where you find someone guilty of a crime they commited you have won justice. In a corrupt country you can pay to ensure a guilty party is found guilty (usually in a corrupt country people pay to be cleared of crimes they did commit but that doesn't mean it cannot be the other way) And if you haven't noticed yet I'm trolling a troll

CCP Begpo KpoBu	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:50:00 - [129] Topic moved to Features and Ideas Discussion. Begpo KpoBu

Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:04:00 - [130] Originally by: CCP Begpo KpoBu Topic moved to Features and Ideas Discussion. Begpo KpoBu Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion? - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Innovations	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:43:00 - [131] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Originally by: CCP Begpo KpoBu Topic moved to Features and Ideas Discussion. Begpo KpoBu Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion? I wouldn't say so seeing as the op is suggesting changes to the current system
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:06:00 - [132] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Akita T Ok, ok, so your complaint is that the money goes to the broker with the 30 sell order instead of to the broker with a 27000 sell order ? Pfft. Nonsense. That's a good thing, for many different reasons. Name the reasons and explain how it is just. For starters, because it prevents "ISK laundring" without any half-decent form of effort. As a RMT ISK seller, you can't just pretend you "bought the stuff accidentally" and the money ended up with the guy putting up the insanely high-ball order - instead, the money ends up with the best seller in the station. Because it prevents people that put insanely high-ball orders from making a profit off of unattentive buyers - again, the profit goes to the best seller in the station. IF the insanely high-ball order IS the best seller in the station, only then does he get to make a profit off of his "work". And because, quite frankly, exactly as it was intended, the LOWEST sell order should ALWAYS get the deals. Originally by: Akita T If anything, you should complain the DIFFERENCE between 30 and 27000 isn't simply kept by the broker, in other words, ISK removed from the game (because in real-life, that's probably what would happen, the broker would most likely just pocket the difference). You forgot to address this part in any way, shape or form. This would solve your "perceived problem" by only giving YOU what you asked for... while the silly buyer gets exactly what he paid for, however overpriced he wanted it to be. Or... wait, wait... you're NOT suggesting the buyer should only actually pay the lowest price instead of the price he MANUALLY SELCTED to pay ? This is not a game that has much hand-holding, if any... and this is certainly not the place to start with it. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:30:00 - [133] Originally by: Whitehound I am currently selling some missiles for about 30 ISK each and it is now the second time that someone paid 37,000.00 ISK instead, resulting each time in a payment of millions of ISK for a handful of standard missiles! Send me the ISK, and I will return it to its rightful owners. -/ the fighting republicans /-
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:18:00 - [134] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/07/2009 18:25:18 Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Hmm if the system works as intended dont this topic still belong in market discussion? I wouldn't say so seeing as the op is suggesting changes to the current system I am not suggesting immediate changes. I want to understand the intention of this "working as intended feature" and to point out the injustice it creates. Market Discussions is not the right place any more, because no one could give a meaningful answer and it has turned out to be more of a bomb shell than a topic that can actually be discussed in MD. So the topic has moved on into the forum for the discussion of features and ideas. It is what I guess. The topic does not need to have a home to be discussed. Regarding the RMTs (real money transfers) do I not care about CCP. This is an outside problem, one that is entirely CCP's problem and I am playing a game. I pay my subscription and have no business with ISK sellers. I dislike them a lot. They have ruined the local channel of some systems and now appear to have managed to corrupted the market system. I do not believe that this "feature" is intended to stop large sums from getting transferred. They still can be transferred, and if an ISK seller would have wished for a feature to blur their transfers further then CCP would have given them just the feature they needed. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:05:00 - [135] Oh my jeebus, you're still managing to string people along? 10/10; +1 internets to this troll! -SIG- The true meaning of CCP; Completely Crap Patches. Truth.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 21:39:00 - [136] Well this has been a very stimulating conversation, and i have learnd something about the market i did not know. But since you do not seem to read the replies people give you i for one am gonne say thanks for the fun, take care and bye God i hope the market system keeps buggin the hell out of you... People have answerd your questions soooo many times, but its intersteing how selective reading seem too work.. Akita T, perfect and to the point as always, you where able to say in one go what i have been stublingly trying to express...
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.07.16 21:40:00 - [137] Well this has been a very stimulating conversation, and i have learnd something about the market i did not know. But since you do not seem to read the replies people give you i for one am gonne say thanks for the fun, take care and bye God i hope the market system keeps buggin the hell out of you... People have answerd your questions soooo many times, but its intersteing how selective reading seem too work.. Akita T, perfect and to the point as always, you where able to say in one go what i have been stublingly trying to express...
Kapila Parthalan Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.17 02:07:00 - [138] Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Kapila Parthalan While I disagree with the OP's arguments, I do think the current system could be improved. If you place a buy order at a higher price than the lowest sell order, then the item should be taken from this sell order, as it currently is. However, instead of paying your buy order price, the price could be their sell order price. This would allow you to quickly buy up multiple sell orders at varying prices without paying extra, while the sellers would get the price they ask for. It would also prevent RMT transactions at least as effectively as the current system. The same idea applies when you place a sell order at a lower price than the highest buy order. then your just switching the arguement and instead of the seller getting the better deal the buyer does, why would that make it anymore fair? Not only that but it would require more coding and probably extra load on the server to implement a system where the broker uses AI to match bids. As CCP want to improve performance in hubs like Jita I find the current system is perfectly fair to everyone involved and keeps the game running smooth. I do not think it is more fair, but I think it is just as fair as the other system. I think it is a good idea because it makes it possible to fill multiple orders at once without wasting isk. This system wouldn't require any extra load or AI. The system already finds the lowest price order in the correct range. Now, instead of using the price of the sell order, it simply uses the price of the buy order. The change is extremely simple to make. I don't see where you get the idea that this would be highly complicated and make the game lag. Originally by: Akita T If anything, you should complain the DIFFERENCE between 30 and 27000 isn't simply kept by the broker, in other words, ISK removed from the game (because in real-life, that's probably what would happen, the broker would most likely just pocket the difference). This is also not a bad idea. It is more fair to both sides of the transaction than the current system.
Hykke Free Imperial Vikings	Posted - 2009.07.17 06:29:00 - [139] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan I do not think it is more fair, but I think it is just as fair as the other system. I think it is a good idea because it makes it possible to fill multiple orders at once without wasting isk. This system wouldn't require any extra load or AI. [...]. I don't see where you get the idea that this would be highly complicated and make the game lag. I have once earned several hundred million in this way because a buyer had entered one zero too many on a buy order. I think a system where the oldest order sets the price instead of the newest should be extremely simple to implement, and it should not cause any additional server stress at all. (The amount of transactions stay the same, the only difference is in the amounts). Such a system would be better for several reasons, one being that it protects you against loosing too much isk if you make a mistake. Some people would argue that you SHOULD loose isk if you make a mistake, but I think it's a good idea that the trading system at least to some extent protects against mistakes. ----------------------------------- Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum
Kurzhan Suvok Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.17 06:58:00 - [140] 1) The Market is not a store, an auction house, or a street fair. You are not directly buying items from a particular vendor nor do you sell your wares through a storefront. If you want a point of reference for what the EVE market is you need to look at a modern commodities market (without the futures trade). 2) Brokers (invisible NPCs) are the entities through which items are purchased and sold on the market. As a player you never are directly involved in the purchase or sale of an item on the market. You are only telling a broker you are willing to pay a certain price for a certain number of items or are willing to sell a set amount of items for a particular price per item. ItÆs important to understand that in addition to following normal standards and practices for a commodities market this system helps prevent significant market manipulation. If I was able to control who got the money when I placed a buy order I could, for little cost, drive the price of many items up significantly without losing the money. I could place buy orders for 100 or 1000 times the value of an item and significantly increase the preceived value of an item over a relatively short period of time. Without the intervention of a broker following strict rules to buy from the lowest priced sell order but paying whatever was offered by the buy order I could avoid losing much money and only be out a minor amount in taxes and broker fees (which can be dropped to next to nothing). The market then reports sales at inflated prices along with bloated sales volume. This is not good for a healthy economy.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.17 07:14:00 - [141] Quote: Am I complaining about getting rich? No. What I am complaining about is of involuntarily scamming of people. You didn't do anything wrong or right that caused this ...You have nothing to complain about. Like in the real world you had a choice - you could have been nice and honest and attempted to give the money back or you could have kept it. This is the part of the game I find refreshing; it doesn't try to save you from making stupid mistakes or from being dishonest. It does prove that many people want to have big brother government ...or game dev... nail down every detail of the rules and regulations so no one ever strays out of line. The shackling of your choice and staggering loss of freedom is the boring and unnecessary result. Be the honest guy if you like that approach; you may even score a permanent customer out of it.
TRD 2371	Posted - 2009.07.17 07:42:00 - [142] Edited by: TRD 2371 on 17/07/2009 07:43:48 eiter you concentrated then you wont get scammed or you are not and then you eventually be scammed....
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.07.17 20:07:00 - [143] Whitehound, You are not scamming. This is how many markets work in the real world. You offer 10 units at $5 a piece. Someone offers 15 units at $500 a piece A client walks by, sees the sale and asks for 25 units, and selects to buy them at $500. To fill his order, both offers are sold (your 10 plus the other 15) but everyone gets the $500 per unit price, a bonus for you. This is common market practice. Yes, the buyer may have made a mistake in buying them at $500 instead of $5, but that is his error, his problem, not yours. Sleep well. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.18 09:27:00 - [144] Originally by: Ozone71 This is how many markets work in the real world. ... Sleep well. Dear Ozone71, it is not how the world works. You do not get free candy and those who do not ask for more do not get more. This only works for children. Now do you want EVE do be a game for children or do you want the Real Thing(TM)? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Kapila Parthalan Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.18 12:00:00 - [145] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Ozone71 This is how many markets work in the real world. ... Sleep well. Dear Ozone71, it is not how the world works. You do not get free candy and those who do not ask for more do not get more. This only works for children. Now do you want EVE do be a game for children or do you want the Real Thing(TM)? Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.18 16:17:00 - [146] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE. He is not talking about the markets. He patronizes me. I have explained the problem several times now and will not explain it on every page again. Read the thread again. Do not simplify the problem when it requires to see details. If reading and understanding makes you tired then it is not me who needs to take a nap. Either pay attention or do not care about it, but do not tell me what is wrong or right when it is all the same to you. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Seleucid Secundus	Posted - 2009.07.19 04:01:00 - [147] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Kapila Parthalan Notice that he he is talking about the markets. Your candy analogy is completely different from the market system in either RL or EVE. He is not talking about the markets. He patronizes me. I have explained the problem several times now and will not explain it on every page again. Read the thread again. Do not simplify the problem when it requires to see details. If reading and understanding makes you tired then it is not me who needs to take a nap. Either pay attention or do not care about it, but do not tell me what is wrong or right when it is all the same to you. We have all explained that it is NOT a problem, MANY times on EVERY page. It is you who should re-read the thread again. Again, there is no problem as many people have told you, we have looked at all the "details". Everyone is tired from reading this because you just dont get it. You should pay attention to what people are saying. Have you noticed that you havn't convinced anyone? Do you think thats because you're smarter than everyone else, or is it because we are all so ignorant and thick headed?
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.19 04:04:00 - [148] Originally by: Seleucid Secundus We have all explained that it is NOT a problem, MANY times on EVERY page. It is you who should re-read the thread again. Again, there is no problem as many people have told you, we have looked at all the "details". Everyone is tired from reading this because you just dont get it. You should pay attention to what people are saying. Have you noticed that you havn't convinced anyone? Do you think thats because you're smarter than everyone else, or is it because we are all so ignorant and thick headed? Who are you trying to fool? -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer

CCP Zymurgist Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.19 14:12:00 - [149] Thread Locked by Original Poster's request. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us


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