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Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.04 03:29:00 - [301] Originally by: HankMurphy First, i want to make it clear i would kill a random person on the street if this happened. Just as long as we see things eye to eye. ;-) Quote: So what is the tempest good for? This is the question CCP should have to answer. Not all the other bull** angles they look at it from, at the end of the day what is this ships job??? Sigh, of course, you're right. Can't I have an oversized Hurricane/Muninn then? Please? Maybe make it special and give it 20% Medium projectile damage and optimal? Really what struck a cord of "F-U" in me was making it an ewar BS... I mean ffs please OMG we already have a BS lineup, why ** it over more? Would that abomination even be better than what we have now?
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 03:31:00 - [302] Tempest has double damage bonus's so it has to do good dmage. Fix the damage - fix the ship. Please CCP!!
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 05:57:00 - [303] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Guillame Herschel I think the Tempest would be just grand as the Minmatar Ewar BS, a counterpart to the Scorpion. Same slot layout, but change the following: 3 turret, 5 missile hardpoints 10% Bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Velocity per level 10% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level Negatory, morning glory. First, i want to make it clear i would kill a random person on the street if this happened. That said, this person has a point. The point being we have 2 arguments to discuss with the tempest, Its weapons: Here we have delved into Autocannons, artillery and bears oh my. All valid arguments and a whole list of things that need looked at alone and separate. The SHIP itself: Here we discuss slot layout, agility, etc all adding up to ITS ROLE IN COMBAT. When the tier 3 ships were released they were not to replace the tier 2 models, but both the abaddon and the mael stepped on the toes of the ships before them. Here is where matar really got the shaft. If the tempest didn't have dual weapon bonuses it would have a role in combat, but E V E R Y T H I N G it does is done better by either the typhoon or the maelstrom, this is due to both its slot layout and the overall yesteryear idiology (?) of the ship. (To compare to amarr, their 3 battleships all have basically the same slot layout and turret capabilities. I would think they are worse off if it wasn't for the fact lasers pwn and the super low slot action gives you a great armor tank every time. It is a 'dumb' line imo but all 3 ships do their job exceptionally.) So what is the tempest good for? This is the question CCP should have to answer. Not all the other bull**** angles they look at it from, at the end of the day what is this ships job??? Guillame may have been naive or just joking, but he is more right that he knows, look at all the mids, obviously CCP wants the weakest ewar race to have a joke of an ewar battelship in it's lineup I have my doubts as to whether this thread will get anything near to a useful response from CCP, but if it does it needs to address this post. The Tempest just doesn't have a role that that is relevant to battleship sized combat, and ganking other solo battleships solo is no longer a real role. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Nova Satar Annihilate. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.04 10:28:00 - [304] its like a giant vaga only not fast and not agile, so basically just a piece of ****
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.08.04 13:31:00 - [305] Just letting you know that we have CSM Larkonis Trassler looking at this issue right now, and he said he'll be writing something up for the upcoming CSM meeting on Aug. 9th. Again, head on over to the Assembly Hall and indicate your support of a review of ACs, Artillery, and the Tempest thread found in that forum.. and feel free to make comments. Maybe this time around, we can finally get necessary change. Also, be sure to thank Larkonis for his effort reviewing this issue. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 13:35:00 - [306] Originally by: Orakkus Just letting you know that we have CSM Larkonis Trassler looking at this issue right now, and he said he'll be writing something up for the upcoming CSM meeting on Aug. 9th. Again, head on over to the Assembly Hall and indicate your support of a review of ACs, Artillery, and the Tempest thread found in that forum.. and feel free to make comments. Maybe this time around, we can finally get necessary change. Also, be sure to thank Larkonis for his effort reviewing this issue. Go Lark! It would nice if he could ask CCP what the Tempest's role is as well, but just raising the issue is enough for me. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 15:59:00 - [307] OH august 9th and 10th will see the largest "spam'of projectiles/ tempest complains of eve history! I will prepare 200 posts in advance based on traditional complains and the most likely responses that other players might post. :P
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 16:00:00 - [308] Originally by: Seishi Maru OH august 9th and 10th will see the largest "spam'of projectiles/ tempest complains of eve history! I will prepare 200 posts in advance based on traditional complains and the most likely responses that other players might post. :P I endorse this idea. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
NeoNeTiC LOCKDOWN. Cult of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:29:00 - [309] Didn't read the thread at all but I'd say the Tempest needs 6 times more "sails" than it has now - they should face in all directions and have sharp edges. The ship itself gets a huge agility and mwd-mass-penalty-bonus and starts rotating wildly while moving with a MWD. It then cuts through the enemy lines. The more ships die to it, the more damage it will inflict (that's from the debris flying around and getting stuck on the sails, making them cut more). Or if you're not into my 'battleball' concept: Minnies have two gank and one gank+tank bonused BS which is not versatile at all. The "Large ACs are bad"-issue aside, the Tempest needs a role, not some fancy stats. I'd personally like to see the phoon lose its split weapons to free up the slot of "Megathron-style-gank-ship" for the Tempest - or just put the ship's bonuses onto Naglfar niveau (because the concept didn't work there either) as a temporary fix. The phoon could become a full torp boat or even a drone or EW platform, I don't care.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.04 17:38:00 - [310] Originally by: NeoNeTiC The phoon could become a full torp boat or even a drone or EW platform, I don't care. No, you don't break the phoon to make room for the Tempest. Don't touch my phoon.

Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.08.04 18:18:00 - [311] Originally by: HankMurphy Guillame may have been naive or just joking, but he is more right that he knows, look at all the mids, obviously CCP wants the weakest ewar race to have a joke of an ewar battelship in it's lineup I wasn't really joking. You got my point exactly. As lame as my proposed Torp/Painter Tempest would be, it's still a pretty good improvement over the way it is now. I'd rather fly an effective turret Tempest, but I don't see how that can happen without making the other two Matari BS still better than the 'Pest. So maybe it's time to "reboot" the 'Pest into a completely different role. Originally by: Sera Ryskin And I have no idea what this bull**** about gang or solo is about.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:08:00 - [312] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: HankMurphy Guillame may have been naive or just joking, but he is more right that he knows, look at all the mids, obviously CCP wants the weakest ewar race to have a joke of an ewar battelship in it's lineup I wasn't really joking. You got my point exactly. As lame as my proposed Torp/Painter Tempest would be, it's still a pretty good improvement over the way it is now. I'd rather fly an effective turret Tempest, but I don't see how that can happen without making the other two Matari BS still better than the 'Pest. So maybe it's time to "reboot" the 'Pest into a completely different role. I had some ideas. The most simple would be role both the damage bonuses into a single 10% damage bonus and add a 10% falloff bonus. Simple, quick and gives the Tempest a nice little role as the mid range projectile platform people have been asking for. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:13:00 - [313] Originally by: Bibbleibble I had some ideas. The most simple would be role both the damage bonuses into a single 10% damage bonus and add a 10% falloff bonus. Simple, quick and gives the Tempest a nice little role as the mid range projectile platform people have been asking for. Yeah, I'd take it. I don't mind the hit in fleet combat since I hate fleet combat anyway.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:15:00 - [314] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Bibbleibble I had some ideas. The most simple would be role both the damage bonuses into a single 10% damage bonus and add a 10% falloff bonus. Simple, quick and gives the Tempest a nice little role as the mid range projectile platform people have been asking for. Yeah, I'd take it. I don't mind the hit in fleet combat since I hate fleet combat anyway. Give it something resembling reasonable mass and it might actually work like a battleship sized vagabond, with dual heavy neuts. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:26:00 - [315] For that to work it would need a upgrade of drone bay to at least 100M or the reduced base dps will nullify the boost.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:31:00 - [316] Originally by: Seishi Maru For that to work it would need a upgrade of drone bay to at least 100M or the reduced base dps will nullify the boost. Only up to about 13km, which is about where the current Minmatar battleships have problems. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:42:00 - [317] Even so having the lowest damage of all bs with 2 damage bonus is meeehhhh tiny bonus to drone bay would not unbalance anything. Of course if ac are boosted a bit on damage then this is not needed.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:51:00 - [318] Originally by: Seishi Maru Even so having the lowest damage of all bs with 2 damage bonus is meeehhhh tiny bonus to drone bay would not unbalance anything. Of course if ac are boosted a bit on damage then this is not needed. That's a good point... Boosting the drone bay to 100mb/s would be a boost of about 43 DPS. That almost offsets the loss in DPS by combining the damage bonuses to make room for the falloff bonus. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Lord WarATron Amarr Shadow Warri0rs	Posted - 2009.08.04 19:55:00 - [319] People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. -- Billion Isk Mission
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:00:00 - [320] Read this then say that alpha is still useful. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)

Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:00:00 - [321] Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail ***** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:06:00 - [322] Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. Does nobody take math classes anymore? I swear, how many times has it been proven that alpha is worthless, nay, detrimental? Don't worry though, he's ex BoB. He knows what he's doing.
Lord WarATron Amarr Shadow Warri0rs	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:12:00 - [323] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail ***** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1. You are talking to one of the top 1% of snipers in eve. Look me up, trust me - I know what I am talking about. People laughed at my DG fitted Rokhs - till they worked it out. They laughed at my Nightmare fit - till they worked it out. In fact, on these very forums they stated my Zealot sniper fit I suggested to someone was useless. I decided to use that Zealot and it is still alive after over 300 kills, most of which when outnumbered. Long story short. I know my sniping, but I do not see any sniping history for you. When I say Alpha matters, it does. Only time DPS>Alpha is when you are shooting pos, or have a dumb fc who wants 300 people to shoot a kestrel rather than co-ordinate fire. -- Billion Isk Mission
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:13:00 - [324] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail *** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1. You are talking to one of the top 1% of snipers in eve. Look me up, trust me - I know what I am talking about. People laughed at my DG fitted Rokhs - till they worked it out. They laughed at my Nightmare fit - till they worked it out. In fact, on these very forums they stated my Zealot sniper fit I suggested to someone was useless. I decided to use that Zealot and it is still alive after over 300 kills, most of which when outnumbered. Long story short. I know my sniping, but I do not see any sniping history for you. When I say Alpha matters, it does. Only time DPS>Alpha is when you are shooting pos, or have a dumb fc who wants 300 people to shoot a kestrel rather than co-ordinate fire. I'll save Kismo some time here. Originally by:** Kismo Originally by: Grimpak also how does higher alpha sucks for fleet combat? It isn't that alpha sucks for fleet combat, it's that it isn't worth trading DPS for alpha. Think of two fleets composed of ships with exactly the same DPS, but one is high alpha and the other is high ROF (~4s ROF) T0, Everyone fires, a couple of each side explode T4, The ROF ships fire and a couple more of the high damage ships explode T8, High damage and high ROF ships fire, and a couple explode on each side (ROF: -4, Dmg: -6) T12, ROF fires, a couple more high damage ships explode (ROF: -4, Dmg: -8) ... Eventually there is a large enough disparity in ship count that it becomes a clear and obvious rout. This is a base generalisation, but it holds in theory and practice. The biggest question in fleet combat is DPS vs EHP as long as both sides have sufficient range. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:21:00 - [325] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail ***** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1. You are talking to one of the top 1% of snipers in eve. Look me up, trust me - I know what I am talking about. People laughed at my DG fitted Rokhs - till they worked it out. They laughed at my Nightmare fit - till they worked it out. In fact, on these very forums they stated my Zealot sniper fit I suggested to someone was useless. I decided to use that Zealot and it is still alive after over 300 kills, most of which when outnumbered. Long story short. I know my sniping, but I do not see any sniping history for you. When I say Alpha matters, it does. Only time DPS>Alpha is when you are shooting pos, or have a dumb fc who wants 300 people to shoot a kestrel rather than co-ordinate fire. Dear stubborn fool, You are wrong. You have been proven wrong, yet you still blabber on about how you're the greatest and alpha matters. I would suggest you stop digging before you make yourself look like a total idiot. Love, Astro
Deathhawk Hammersmith Hardmen Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:29:00 - [326] Edited by: Deathhawk on 04/08/2009 20:32:33 Edited by: Deathhawk on 04/08/2009 20:29:47 page 12 snipa?! i like tempest.. 4x rocket launcher. best named 4x drone link things 2x hull reps rest = thukker large shield extenders energized adaptive nano x1 5x gyrostabilizers bestest named rigs = sentry damage ones this works in lvl 5 missions bestest way Damn!! guess not Chuck Norris wears Deathhawk pyjamas
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:39:00 - [327] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail ***** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1. You are talking to one of the top 1% of snipers in eve. Look me up, trust me - I know what I am talking about. People laughed at my DG fitted Rokhs - till they worked it out. They laughed at my Nightmare fit - till they worked it out. In fact, on these very forums they stated my Zealot sniper fit I suggested to someone was useless. I decided to use that Zealot and it is still alive after over 300 kills, most of which when outnumbered. Long story short. I know my sniping, but I do not see any sniping history for you. When I say Alpha matters, it does. Only time DPS>Alpha is when you are shooting pos, or have a dumb fc who wants 300 people to shoot a kestrel rather than co-ordinate fire. Your credentials have been noted and they are impressive. Oh and by the way, maybe it wasn't your ships they were laughing at.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:39:00 - [328] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 04/08/2009 20:41:54 Ignoring stubborn idiots, we really need to get some sort of consensus. We need to get a basic set of solutions for CCP to look at when Lark brings the issue up at the CSM meeting. So far we have agreed: -Reduce mass to help them be the fastest battleships (I have some numbers if no one else has any ideas, but I want to see what other people think) Ideas thrown about so far: -Combine Damage bonuses (7.5ROF or 10% damage) and give a falloff bonus/velocity bonus -Increase agility -Increase Shield or armour hp -Change slot config -Reduce sig radius -Increase speed -Increase Capacitor -Increase drone bay to 100/125, with respective bandwidth -Increase Grid -Missile velocity bonus -Target painter bonus -add a turret hardpoint -Armour resist bonus Regarding large projectiles, we have only really agreed on extra falloff and damage for AC (All you really can do without stepping on lasers or blasters toes too much) Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:44:00 - [329] Originally by: Bibbleibble Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. Maybe a little bit of both blended with a bit more tracking
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:57:00 - [330] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/08/2009 20:48:11 Originally by: Bibbleibble Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. Maybe a little bit of both blended with much more tracking, and some more DPS, with some cap usage, and locked Exp/Kin damage. The way I thought of doing was giving it a massive boost in falloff with a reduction in optimal (we're talking about half the current optimal for 4 times the falloff with tremor). That makes it pretty easy to hit sniper ranges with a fair amount of damage. The other change is two fold. I'd change tremor to give the same base damage as RF EMP, but give it a ROF penalty to keep it at the same level of DPS (60% would be about right). I'd also boost the damage mod to 24.43255 and increase the ROF to 25.5. But that's just me, and I'm sure other people can come up with different (and quite possibly better) ways of fixing artillery. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)



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