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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:30:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 30/07/2009 13:30:12 And still, mega has to consue cap to keep guns fiering, projectiles need not.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:33:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan So what you more or less want is a ship that equals mega wiht no cap consumtion at all on the guns?
No cap should equal less damage then cap intencive guns. Aslo ammo for AC is better, more damage types.
I would like to see the weapons themself getting some love, but the ship as is, is fine.
Nope. I want a ship that will deal 25% less damage than mega up to 10 KM.. closely match it up form there and outdamage it over 18-19 km . Also it will have about 20% less tank capability, will have massively inferior sniping capabilities will be much harder to fit for sniping with DD proof. Also with starting inferior cap lower sensor strenght.
yeahh all that disadvantages for a almost useless no cap usage for guns and 15ms more speed.. geeez really unbalanced .
A an LOL for the projectile ammo is better. That statement alone proves how few you really understand the issue. Check the other posts for it. Simply chahging Projectile and Hybrids ammo in fact woudl solve half the issue. Compare R Fleet EMP with NAvy Antimatter.... Projectiles must use t2 ammo to reach samge damage and then suffer massive tracking penalties.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:36:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 30/07/2009 13:30:12 And still, mega has to consue cap to keep guns fiering, projectiles need not.
I have both ammar BSs and minmatar BS at level 5 with basically all skilsl related to BS maxed on them... NEVER EVER EVER EVER had any cap issues in combat with an ABADDON!!! And an abaddon uses a full order of magnitude more cap than megatron. So cut that crap of cap usage.
Every minmatar pilot woudl GLADLY accept cap usage on their guns if we receievd back the base cap we have less the HP that we have less and the MASSIVE damage difference we have less.
Cap is MINOR issue since the NOS nerf. It is still an advantage. but one that is worth at most a 5% damage difference by itself
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:39:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 30/07/2009 13:24:03 This is a 6-gun Megathron, with 2 heavy neuts, compared with a 6x 800mm AC Pest, with 2 heavy neuts:
Link
Mega has more HP, same agility, more tracking, more damage, and most agree its slot layout is generally better.
Tempest cannot choose its damage type when fighting past 15km or so, you do absurdly little damage without using Barrage, and if you use anything except EMP, you gimp your damage even more. Choosing damage types is made up for by doing less damage with other damage types.
That image sided with the image of both fittings simple SETTLE the issue. Tempest is NOT balanced at all.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:44:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 30/07/2009 13:30:12 And still, mega has to consue cap to keep guns fiering, projectiles need not.
The Megathron can also fit an additional gun, and antimatter does far more damage EMP.
Would you consider a hypothetical ship good that gives you a bit of cap while firing, but can only fit 5 guns, and each of those 5 guns does less than the Tempest's 6 with equal ammo? Said ship's guns' top damage ammo would deal 10% less damage than EMP, and it would have 50m3 less dronebay than the Tempest, and weaker sensor strength. However, it would be 15m/s faster (with the same agility), and have another highslot free for a heavy neut!
This sounds like a fantastic ship, it has all of the Tempest's strengths, only more of them.
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:45:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 30/07/2009 13:30:12 And still, mega has to consue cap to keep guns fiering, projectiles need not.
I have both ammar BSs and minmatar BS at level 5 with basically all skilsl related to BS maxed on them... NEVER EVER EVER EVER had any cap issues in combat with an ABADDON!!! And an abaddon uses a full order of magnitude more cap than megatron. So cut that crap of cap usage.
Every minmatar pilot woudl GLADLY accept cap usage on their guns if we receievd back the base cap we have less the HP that we have less and the MASSIVE damage difference we have less.
Cap is MINOR issue since the NOS nerf. It is still an advantage. but one that is worth at most a 5% damage difference by itself
SETCAPSLOCKTOAWESOME!
:P
Serioulsy tho, I would not be against cap use for more dps, but cap less guns do have an advantage in small scale battles still, especially if you active shield tank.
"Every minmatar pilot woudl GLADLY accept cap usage on their guns if we receievd back the base cap we have less the HP that we have less and the MASSIVE damage difference we have less."
Think I got waht you ment, but still, I have said that I'd like teh guns to see some love, but that does not mean that the ship needs changing just to be more in line with the cookie cutter BSs that we got too many of already.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:54:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan
SETCAPSLOCKTOAWESOME!
:P
Serioulsy tho, I would not be against cap use for more dps, but cap less guns do have an advantage in small scale battles still, especially if you active shield tank.
You active shield tank your Tempest?
Originally by: Lindsay Logan "Every minmatar pilot woudl GLADLY accept cap usage on their guns if we receievd back the base cap we have less the HP that we have less and the MASSIVE damage difference we have less."
Think I got waht you ment, but still, I have said that I'd like teh guns to see some love, but that does not mean that the ship needs changing just to be more in line with the cookie cutter BSs that we got too many of already.
The Tempest does not need to be cookie-cutter, but it currently has nothing over any other battleship. Nothing. Raven does 200dps more at 30km than the Tempest does at 3, and it doesn't use cap either. Megathron has the niche of uber close range blaster ship, with its high damage and excellent tracking. Armageddon makes for excellent anti-support, with its great DPS at range.
The Tempest... has some unbonused highslots you can't fit much in, and it can fire its terrible guns without gimping its non-existant tank.
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Merbusent
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Posted - 2009.07.30 13:54:00 -
[158]
Quote: RR with no plates no resists .. that is prety much FAIL! You wil be kicked from most gangs if you appear with shield buffer on a armor RR gang.
You can make a megatron have better range better HP, better everything. Same for dominix even !! Same for all battleships (Scorpion is not a battleship.. is a specialized strange ship) except maybe the maelstrom that woudl be equaly bad but more expensive.
Rabble Rabble
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:11:00 -
[159]
And now a proposition.
I feel that at the very least, larger-tier autocannons should have more falloff, and lower tier should (potentially) have more tracking. AC boats cannot effectively get under a Pulse-ship's tracking, even without webs, without messing up their own tracking. Nor can they effectively fire out of a blaster ship's range, since blaster ships do so much more raw damage. Additional falloff would let a Tempest engage a Megathron with a slight advantage from outside of point range.
More might be needed to fix the Tempest, but I think this is a good start.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:12:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 30/07/2009 13:24:03 This is a 6-gun Megathron, with 2 heavy neuts, compared with a 6x 800mm AC Pest, with 2 heavy neuts:
Link
Mega has more HP, same agility, more tracking, more damage, and most agree its slot layout is generally better.
Tempest cannot choose its damage type when fighting past 15km or so, you do absurdly little damage without using Barrage, and if you use anything except EMP, you gimp your damage even more. Choosing damage types is made up for by doing less damage with other damage types.
How are the ships fit? What ammo was used? Might allow me to compare them effectively.
Is it fail to fly a tempest with ambit rigs? In my opinion comparing how the Tempest sucks vs a blaster boat in web scram range shows me nothing other than blasters working at their intended range.
Are you including drone damage? That would bias a 125 m^3 drone bay over a 75 m^3 drone bay. In low sec gcc usually kills off drone dps anyways.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:17:00 -
[161]
I recommend you plug both into EFT yourself.
No, I don't consider it fail to fly a Tempest with ambit rigs, but you can rig a Megathron too, you know. Mega has 6x Neutrons, 2x heavy neut, 3 magstabs. Tempest has 6x 800mm AC, 2x heavy neuts, 3x gyro.
Drones are included. If you want to fly an awesome ship without worrying about drones, a Null-Neutron Rokh, Abaddon, or Hyperion are all better options than the Tempest. Remember though that not everyone fights under sentries. (Empire wars, anti-piracy and 0.0 combat)
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:24:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 30/07/2009 14:28:26
Ignore drones for a moment.
Green is 6x Blaster Mega (2x heavy neuts) with Null.
Red is Tempest with Republic Fleet EMP.
*EDIT*
This is BARRAGE Tempest vs NULL Mega
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Merbusent
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:27:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Merbusent on 30/07/2009 14:34:06 Well presented :D
-just a suggestion fitting an afterburner on either a tempest or typhoon drastically reduces damage taken more noticable from a raven, great for high sec etc and you leave those on with an orbit annihilating any chance.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:36:00 -
[164]
Now swap the heavy injector for a medium and fit neutrons. Even with a medium injector, a Mega can keep its guns running under a Tempest's dual heavy neuts more than long enough to kill the Pest. Posting a screenshot in a moment with my proposed fits.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:38:00 -
[165]
Here's a typical plated Mega with 7x Neuton Blaster Cannon II with Null and 1x neut.
Compared to the Ambit dual 650mm Tempest with 2x neut that I showed in my previous post.
Again I've ignored drones, because they can be destroyed, and they take time to reach the target.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:42:00 -
[166]
Ignoring drones is a mistake, especially in the Mega's case. It tends to operate at such ranges that drone travel time is effectively negligible.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:44:00 -
[167]
Linkage
Fake edit: You beat me to it, and with the same fit.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:44:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Ecky X Now swap the heavy injector for a medium and fit neutrons. Even with a medium injector, a Mega can keep its guns running under a Tempest's dual heavy neuts more than long enough to kill the Pest. Posting a screenshot in a moment with my proposed fits.
If you're fitting a medium cap injector to fit neutrons, adjust my ambit Tempest fit with 800mm AC II.
I'm not arguing about a 1v1 situation btw. I'm just showing where I think the Tempest ought to be operating which is >20km.
If the mega gets in scram/web range its a better ship.
If the tempest maintains range superiority - I feel like I'd rather be flying that.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:48:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Ecky X on 30/07/2009 14:49:03
Originally by: Omarvelous If you're fitting a medium cap injector to fit neutrons, adjust my ambit Tempest fit with 800mm AC II.
I'm not arguing about a 1v1 situation btw. I'm just showing where I think the Tempest ought to be operating which is >20km.
If the mega gets in scram/web range its a better ship.
If the tempest maintains range superiority - I feel like I'd rather be flying that.
Problem is, 800mm AC II's offer very little over dual 650's. And the Mega is better than the current Tempest far out of web/scram range - you have to be at 26km (out of heavy neut range!) and not using drones for the Tempest to break even in damage - with less EHP.
Certainly, the Tempest should be superior at ranges greater than, say, 18km, but at present it is inferior at all real combat ranges.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 15:03:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Ecky X
Problem is, 800mm AC II's offer very little over dual 650's. And the Mega is better than the current Tempest far out of web/scram range - you have to be at 26km (out of heavy neut range!) and not using drones for the Tempest to break even in damage - with less EHP.
Certainly, the Tempest should be superior at ranges greater than, say, 18km, but at present it is inferior at all real combat ranges.
Lets adjust the Tempest to use 800mm AC II (I'll heave to drop to 1 hevay neut) - and we'll keep your typical neutron Mega with 7 guns fit (remember you were originally arguing that a 6 gun mega was better all the time).
With a trimark fit and no ambits the 800mm gun isn't that great and isn't worth the increased grid useage.
However with 3x ambits...
You get:
Sure you *could* fit a cruise II in the free slot to add even more damage, but I'm trying to compare gun systems. Its also why I'm ignoring drones.
Beyond 20km the Tempest works quite well. It can even hit hostile support ships that are trying to stay out of point range.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 15:10:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Ecky X on 30/07/2009 15:11:06
Originally by: Omarvelous
Lets adjust the Tempest to use 800mm AC II (I'll heave to drop to 1 hevay neut) - and we'll keep your typical neutron Mega with 7 guns fit (remember you were originally arguing that a 6 gun mega was better all the time).
With a trimark fit and no ambits the 800mm gun isn't that great and isn't worth the increased grid useage.
Sure you *could* fit a cruise II in the free slot to add even more damage, but I'm trying to compare gun systems. Its also why I'm ignoring drones.
Beyond 20km the Tempest works quite well. It can even hit hostile support ships that are trying to stay out of point range.
Yet the Geddon does this so much better. Throw on 2 tracking rigs or a single TC and it out-tracks the Tempest, dealing far more dps at any range against any ship. There simply isn't a niche here for the Tempest to fill, that isn't already better filled by another ship.
Plus, both the Geddon and Mega have an additional 125dps from drones at close range, if you choose to use them.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 15:26:00 -
[172]
Lets add all 4 Racial BS.
Armageddon:
Rokh:
4 BS comparison:
Green - Neutron Mega with NULL - best under 12km
Light Blue - Neutron Rokh with NULL - best between 12 - 26km
Dark Blue - Mega Pulse II Armageddon with Scorch - best between 26-57km
Red - 800mm ACII Tempest with Barrage - best beyond 57 - second best between 33 - 57km.
The Rokh and the Armageddon are bests beyond web range to about 30. Then the Tempest surpasses the Rokh but the Geddon actually get better.
The geddon and the rokh both have pretty strong tanks and hit far.
The Tempest doesn't look bad vs a Mega beyond web range until you look at scorch or range bonused Rokh.
Ofcourse at the 20km range - the Tempest is neuting which the Rokh and Geddon cannot. The Tempest can fit up mid slot ewar which neither the Armageddon or the Rokh can fit (well the Rokh can but then its tank is gimped).
I guess you guys are complaining that the mid slot tactical flexibility isn't worth losing the DPS game to the Rokh or Armageddon.
Maybe I'll need to compare the Typhoon/Maelstrom to these ships for a clearer picture.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 15:54:00 -
[173]
The Geddon can neut too, it's just very difficult to fit.
Try putting range rigs on the Rokh, just for giggles. If you are ok with using an anc. current router (prices may drop after rig balance patch) you can keep the tracking enhancer. 2x locus are better than ambits when fitting Null, but 2x ambits are better if you want to use antimatter.
Either way, the Rokh is superior to the Tempest out to almost 50km when fit like this, peaking at 660dps (26km) while the Tempest is doing 375. Thus, a Rokh fit this way is worth almost 2 Tempests, or that is to say, two Tempests are not as good in any category as a Rokh + an ewar ship. |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:45:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 30/07/2009 16:46:31
Originally by: Ecky X The Geddon can neut too, it's just very difficult to fit.
Try putting range rigs on the Rokh, just for giggles. If you are ok with using an anc. current router (prices may drop after rig balance patch) you can keep the tracking enhancer. 2x locus are better than ambits when fitting Null, but 2x ambits are better if you want to use antimatter.
Either way, the Rokh is superior to the Tempest out to almost 50km when fit like this, peaking at 660dps (26km) while the Tempest is doing 375. Thus, a Rokh fit this way is worth almost 2 Tempests, or that is to say, two Tempests are not as good in any category as a Rokh + an ewar ship.
I looked at a Maelstrom with 8x 800mm AC II and 4x gyrostab II's (buffer fit so there was no need for cpu mod).
It does a fair bit of damage at the ranges we're looking at with ambit rigs.
The Typhoon was a beast at <13km - but it depends a lot on drone damage.
Which makes me wonder about some ways to adjust the Tempest.
- Add a 7th turret hardpoint - Increase drone bay to 100 m^3 or even 125 m^3 if the Temepst must only use 6 guns. - Change double 5% damage bonus to a single 10% damage bonus, and perhaps a falloff bonus - then you won't need ambits and can fit up trimarks. - Allow tracking computers/enhancers to increase falloff (2x tracking comps with falloff bonuses would be sweet on a 7 gun tempest).
TBH its tough competing against scorch. Fortunately Minnie BS have the highest base EM resist and it pares it up nicely when comparing buffer against laser damage.
*EDIT* For now I'll keep enjoying it as a supersized BC that shreds support with its mid slots/neuts/and ambit rigs.
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Karl Luckner
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:48:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Ecky X The Geddon can neut too, it's just very difficult to fit.
Try putting range rigs on the Rokh, just for giggles. If you are ok with using an anc. current router (prices may drop after rig balance patch) you can keep the tracking enhancer. 2x locus are better than ambits when fitting Null, but 2x ambits are better if you want to use antimatter.
Either way, the Rokh is superior to the Tempest out to almost 50km when fit like this, peaking at 660dps (26km) while the Tempest is doing 375. Thus, a Rokh fit this way is worth almost 2 Tempests, or that is to say, two Tempests are not as good in any category as a Rokh + an ewar ship.
The Rokh will just die because of it's weak cap. It won't be even close.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:53:00 -
[176]
Ignoring the drones is a total fail compare. Drones are not to be ignored just because there is a very SMALL category of pvp where they might get damaged. Most of ships in pvp on eve fight not under sentry fire.
On worse scenario you can use t1 drones that you do not care for loosing against the sentries. Anything else is skewing the analysis towards a very very biased view.
If you want to compare just the guns then fit blasters on a Maelstrom and compare their damage against blaster on same ship. Even with bonuses to AC the blasters outdamage AC on a large ammount of the combat envelope.!! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:54:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 30/07/2009 16:46:31
Originally by: Ecky X The Geddon can neut too, it's just very difficult to fit.
Try putting range rigs on the Rokh, just for giggles. If you are ok with using an anc. current router (prices may drop after rig balance patch) you can keep the tracking enhancer. 2x locus are better than ambits when fitting Null, but 2x ambits are better if you want to use antimatter.
Either way, the Rokh is superior to the Tempest out to almost 50km when fit like this, peaking at 660dps (26km) while the Tempest is doing 375. Thus, a Rokh fit this way is worth almost 2 Tempests, or that is to say, two Tempests are not as good in any category as a Rokh + an ewar ship.
I looked at a Maelstrom with 8x 800mm AC II and 4x gyrostab II's (buffer fit so there was no need for cpu mod).
It does a fair bit of damage at the ranges we're looking at with ambit rigs.
The Typhoon was a beast at <13km - but it depends a lot on drone damage.
Which makes me wonder about some ways to adjust the Tempest.
- Add a 7th turret hardpoint - Increase drone bay to 100 m^3 or even 125 m^3 if the Temepst must only use 6 guns. - Change double 5% damage bonus to a single 10% damage bonus, and perhaps a falloff bonus - then you won't need ambits and can fit up trimarks. - Allow tracking computers/enhancers to increase falloff (2x tracking comps with falloff bonuses would be sweet on a 7 gun tempest).
TBH its tough competing against scorch. Fortunately Minnie BS have the highest base EM resist and it pares it up nicely when comparing buffer against laser damage.
*EDIT* For now I'll keep enjoying it as a supersized BC that shreds support with its mid slots/neuts/and ambit rigs.
These are very well the level of fixes we are looking for. No one here is asking for more than that. That changes alone... if combined are enough to fix tempest as both AC and arti platform. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:57:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Karl Luckner The Rokh will just die because of it's weak cap. It won't be even close.
The Rokh has an injector.
Originally by: Omarvelous Edited by: Omarvelous on 30/07/2009 16:46:31 I looked at a Maelstrom with 8x 800mm AC II and 4x gyrostab II's (buffer fit so there was no need for cpu mod).
It does a fair bit of damage at the ranges we're looking at with ambit rigs.
The Typhoon was a beast at <13km - but it depends a lot on drone damage.
Which makes me wonder about some ways to adjust the Tempest.
- Add a 7th turret hardpoint - Increase drone bay to 100 m^3 or even 125 m^3 if the Temepst must only use 6 guns. - Change double 5% damage bonus to a single 10% damage bonus, and perhaps a falloff bonus - then you won't need ambits and can fit up trimarks. - Allow tracking computers/enhancers to increase falloff (2x tracking comps with falloff bonuses would be sweet on a 7 gun tempest).
TBH its tough competing against scorch. Fortunately Minnie BS have the highest base EM resist and it pares it up nicely when comparing buffer against laser damage.
*EDIT* For now I'll keep enjoying it as a supersized BC that shreds support with its mid slots/neuts/and ambit rigs.
I agree completely. Any (2?) of your suggestions would probably make the Tempest a great ship again. All but the dronebay would make it more competative as a sniper as well.
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Frank Jackson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:00:00 -
[179]
I personally think, that Minmatar ships in general, especially the battle ships, need a speed bonus to make full use of autocannons or arty. I think that the base speed of minmatar battle ships is way to slow, especially because the low dmg the ACs and ARTYs do. |
Seishomaru
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:12:00 -
[180]
Notice also that on the ranges that on these last compare graphs the tempest outpaces the mega.. both ships have damages so low that bringing up a zealot nearly matches them.. and an APOCALYPSE (not even a close range BS) can completely dominate them. SO these are not anymore ranges where these ships are good at all.
Saying the tempest is superior to mega at a range were both already sucks is irrelevant. Tempest need to be superior at a range when still useful. That is why an increase in falloff is required.
Also beyong 25 km range its IRRELEVANT.. otherwise the 2 heavy neuts become irrelevant also, as well the advantage of being more easily able to fit tackle.
Do a realistic compare. Range up to 25 km with at least t1 drones.
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