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Eli Porter Amarr Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.03 16:19:00 - [241] Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 16:19:40 Originally by: AstroPhobic Rokhs are about tied with the apoc in the best sniper boat category, and even t1 nobs can fly them so I'd think they'd represent a rather large majority. Alpha is important... in a 5 on 5, but anything even 20+ and it becomes worthless. The tempest has one of the lowest DPS of the sniper boats and has crap range and crap EHP. Given the fact that sniper boats must fire at 150km (sometimes 180km) with maximum DPS and EHP, the tempest is a very poor choice. 5 on 5? When you're slugging it against another large fleet's Sniper BS fleet, you'd need way more than 5 people to kill a DD tanked BS in less than 5 seconds. The usual requirement of sniper boats: Over 300 DPS. The Tempest fit I posted has 335(with All V). 150-170km range. The Tempest fit I posted has 140km optimal +44km faloff. You can get 151km optimal if you switch the damage rig for a +optimal rig(DPS will be at 317). DD Tank. The Tempest fit I posted has that. Cap to last a good while. lolcap. When you're just sniping capitals, the Mega and Rokh, and some Apoc fits won't reach over the 6 minute marker unless they sacrifice their DPS for a cap stability rig(Like the Tempest does for a +optimal rig). The Tempest is not crap. It has room for a buff but calling it crap is going too far.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.03 16:25:00 - [242] Originally by: Eli Porter Over 300 DPS. The Tempest fit I posted has 335(with All V). Someone has 'include reload times in DPS' unticked. Originally by:* Eli Porter 150-170km range. The Tempest fit I posted has 140km optimal +44km faloff. You can get 151km optimal if you switch the damage rig for a +optimal rig(DPS will be at 317). You mean like an Apoc can get without a single range mod? Originally by:* Eli Porter DD Tank. The Tempest fit I posted has that. You mean like almost ship with 2 trimarks, a 1600mm plate, an EANM and a DC? Originally by:* Eli Porter *Cap to last a good while. lolcap. When you're just sniping capitals, the Mega and Rokh, and some Apoc fits won't reach over the 6 minute marker unless they sacrifice their DPS for a cap stability rig(Like the Tempest does for a +optimal rig). See astrophobics comment earlier for why this is irrelevant. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 16:38:00 - [243] Originally by: Eli Porter The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it. Fleet performance is directly related to DPS vs EHP, and alpha gets progressively more meaningless the larger the fleet gets. No, you won't be breaking your fleet up into mini "fleets" of 14 Tempests or 18 Apocs for the alpha striking - for a variety of reasons. The first rule of fleet combat is KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Murphey also plays a key role. And, frankly, the Tempest simply doesn't have the EHP or DPS (even including damage type) to be a meaningful fleet sniper these days.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.03 16:42:00 - [244] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 03/08/2009 16:43:09 Originally by: Eli Porter 5 on 5? When you're slugging it against another large fleet's Sniper BS fleet, you'd need way more than 5 people to kill a DD tanked BS in less than 5 seconds. Artillery generally holds the advantage for the first 2, depending on the setups 3 volleys. Once you get into large enough numbers to instapop an enemy "dps" ship with alpha, it starts to mean very little. I wish I had links to the liang/goum back and forth between the mael and mega simulation, but suffice to say the megathrons held the advantage in every scenario. I won't waste my time showing why the rokh and apoc are clearly better snipers than the pest, but let's take a look at the mega. [Megathron, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L [empty high slot] Hybrid Discharge Elutriation I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I The megathron holds the advantages: Optimal range (9km more, or 28km more if you switch the discharge for a locus) Tracking (about 60% more) DPS (30 more)(reload times ticked) EHP (8k more) Scan res (154 vs 125) Sensor Str (21 v 19) The tempest holds the advantages: Sig radius (340 vs 400) Firing time (Forever vs 7.5min) Damage type (Explosive slightly favored). I don't know about you, but 7.5 minutes is a good while. With locking lag and target calling I doubt you'll be running out of cap at all, provided you don't splode or warp out before then. Still, you can switch to CN iron and be nearly perma while losing some DPS if you're really having issues. But by 7.5 minutes, the battle has been decided already. Anyway sniping capitals is a job for deadnaughts, not sniper fleets.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 16:46:00 - [245] Originally by: AstroPhobic I wish I had links to the liang/goum back and forth between the mael and mega simulation, but suffice to say the megathrons held the advantage in every scenario. Good thread, and I don't have a link to it. But, I can guarantee that the results can be recreated at will. :)
Eli Porter Amarr Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.03 17:13:00 - [246] Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 17:13:44 Ah, reload time. Forgot to have that ticked.(I usually only EFT Amarr ships so I forgot about that) That seems to be the main issue then. Reload time/Ammo capacity and range on Large Projectiles. And I fully support fixing both those issues. EHP could use a very slight boost to make it viable in other situations as well. As for not using sniper BS's on cap fleets... I'll just say you never know for sure what you're gonna be facing(And not everyone can pilot dreads).
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 17:15:00 - [247] Originally by: Eli Porter Ah, reload time. Forgot to have that ticked.(I usually only EFT Amarr ships so I forgot about that) That seems to be the main issue then. Reload time/Ammo capacity and range on Large Projectiles. And I fully support fixing both those issues. EHP could use a very slight boost to make it viable in other situations as well. The issue is alot more than simply reload time, though it certainly exacerbates the problem. Quote: As for not using sniper BS's on cap fleets... I'll just say you never know for sure what you're gonna be facing. In general, sniper BS's going up against a cap fleet is a dead sniper BS fleet. I mean, sure, you may have a BS fleet take down a cap ship or two, but once it actually starts getting into the realm of a cap fleet battle, your BS fleet is best used on the gate to prevent their support from coming in.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.03 18:13:00 - [248] Originally by: Seishi Maru CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond. I know. It really does make little sense. EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned: Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this. ZULUPARk read this. complete BULL**! The zealot has the range of its pulse guns affected by trackign enahncer and track computers! So cut that crap. You sir has no idea what you are doing in your job! Originally by:** AstroPhobic Somehow I don't think CCP realizes that in order to fit a TE/TC, the vagabond would have to drop another mod. Either half of it's buffer (makes it paper), or a gyro (effectively cancels out any dps boost with falloff), or a nano (might as well fly a nanocane?). Honestly this is pure idiocy at best, and for CCP to say "Ewwww more falloff?" just makes me lose hope for any changes at all. Way to go CCP, your forum base has more of a clue about balancing than your balancing team. QFT. Amazing... -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.08.03 18:25:00 - [249] Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 03/08/2009 18:33:55 Originally by: Eli Porter Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 17:17:11 Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 17:13:44 Ah, reload time. Forgot to have that ticked.(I usually only EFT Amarr ships so I forgot about that) That seems to be the main issue then. Reload time/Ammo capacity and range on Large Projectiles. And I fully support fixing both those issues. EHP could use a very slight boost to make it viable in other situations as well. Tracking could also use a boost I guess. As for not using sniper BS's on cap fleets... I'll just say you never know for sure what you're gonna be facing(And not everyone can pilot dreads). Now you are beginning to see it. The tempest is not terrible at any one thing, but it has some of the lowest stats in nearly every meaningful category. 10%less this, 15% less that, etc etc etc. EHP - The change that I think would fix the whole thing would be to remove the necessity to fit the Reactor control. Increase the power grid (or lower power grid requirement of Artillery, may actually be a better answer) so the tempest can fit a full rack of 1400's without the RCU II. the you could fit a second EANM or a second plate. That would bring it in line with the other BS's. That is all I feel the tempest needs. More range, tracking, DPS( or perhaps making the Alpha meaningful again) should all be addressed by buffing the guns. Increasing damage mods and duration by 150% would be a good start, then maybe double the clip size. That would go a long way to giving the Tempest and Artillery a clear advantage.
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.08.03 18:30:00 - [250] On that note: I am again letting folks know there is a push for a CSM review of this in the Assembly Hall forums Autocannon/Tempest Issue Please visit this forum, post, and indicate your support. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.

Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.03 18:56:00 - [251] Originally by: Eli Porter Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 12:28:18 The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it. [Tempest, Fleet Sniper] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Projectile Collision Accelerator I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I For those who want a short ranged Battleship, the Typhoon is right there for you(Though I agree the SP requirement is steep, but that's Minmatar for you.). And while I'm not a fan of the Maelstrom, many people adore it for its PvE capabilities. That has unacceptably short range. Most FC I flew on last 1 year demans optimal OPTIMAL of 170 km. That setup gives 140 km optimal with only 20 km falloff more than a megatron. But IF tempest coudl fit that setup without the RC then it could fit a TE and get almost on par. So another way to boost tempest into the sniper department woudl be to give it 15% more powergrid (woudl also enable it to fit Active tanks with high tier guns, that would make some value for the no cap crap)
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.03 19:14:00 - [252] Edited by: Drek Grapper on 03/08/2009 19:13:56 Originally by: Orakkus On that note: I am again letting folks know there is a push for a CSM review of this in the Assembly Hall forums Autocannon/Tempest Issue Please visit this forum, post, and indicate your support. Supported. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE THOUGH Come on folks... -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin
Eli Porter Amarr Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.03 19:32:00 - [253] Originally by: Seishi Maru That has unacceptably short range. Most FC I flew on last 1 year demans optimal OPTIMAL of 170 km. That setup gives 140 km optimal with only 20 km falloff more than a megatron. But IF tempest coudl fit that setup without the RC then it could fit a TE and get almost on par. So another way to boost tempest into the sniper department woudl be to give it 15% more powergrid (woudl also enable it to fit Active tanks with high tier guns, that would make some value for the no cap crap) Yes you could also fit a locus coordinator instead of the damage rig(bringing the DPS under 300). Either way Large Projectiles need a buff.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.03 19:43:00 - [254] Originally by: Eli Porter Originally by: Seishi Maru That has unacceptably short range. Most FC I flew on last 1 year demans optimal OPTIMAL of 170 km. That setup gives 140 km optimal with only 20 km falloff more than a megatron. But IF tempest coudl fit that setup without the RC then it could fit a TE and get almost on par. So another way to boost tempest into the sniper department woudl be to give it 15% more powergrid (woudl also enable it to fit Active tanks with high tier guns, that would make some value for the no cap crap) Yes you could also fit a locus coordinator instead of the damage rig(bringing the DPS under 300). Either way Large Projectiles need a buff. Your fit doesn't fit everything then. It ends up needing a 5% powergrid implant. Even avoiding that small pitfall, it only boosts your optimal by about 12km. Which still doesn't give it enough range. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Eli Porter Amarr Altruism. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.03 19:54:00 - [255] Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 19:54:37 Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: Eli Porter Originally by: Seishi Maru That has unacceptably short range. Most FC I flew on last 1 year demans optimal OPTIMAL of 170 km. That setup gives 140 km optimal with only 20 km falloff more than a megatron. But IF tempest coudl fit that setup without the RC then it could fit a TE and get almost on par. So another way to boost tempest into the sniper department woudl be to give it 15% more powergrid (woudl also enable it to fit Active tanks with high tier guns, that would make some value for the no cap crap) Yes you could also fit a locus coordinator instead of the damage rig(bringing the DPS under 300). Either way Large Projectiles need a buff. Your fit doesn't fit everything then. It ends up needing a 5% powergrid implant. Even avoiding that small pitfall, it only boosts your optimal by about 12km. Which still doesn't give it enough range. Both the locus coordinator and the damage rig use the same amount of powergrid. Though to your credit you need AWU V and Rigging IV to fit it without an implant(Though the same goes for many other Sniper BS fits which fit a weapon rig) And yes I agree that 150km is not enough. But it's the best you can get without seriously gimping your DPS or losing your DD tank (Same for the Maelstrom I believe). You can find some consolation in the Falloff, but it's... well Falloff.
Nova Satar Annihilate. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:03:00 - [256] keep this thread up where it belongs, up in ccps face
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:04:00 - [257] Originally by: Nova Satar keep this thread up where it belongs, up in ccps face Last time we had a 40 page Tempest/Artillery thread, they locked it. /shrug
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:05:00 - [258] If the falloff was like 75 km then a 152 km range would not be a problem. As long as the clip size on the arties was also increased a bit. 50% extra falloff and 40% extra clip size is the MINIMAL BARE MINIMAL that arties need. On my ideal world.. soemthign like 20% rof reduction and 30% damage boost (to get about same dps). 2 extra rounds per clip. AND a 50% increase in falloff. That would do it. While keeping flavor.
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:08:00 - [259] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Nova Satar keep this thread up where it belongs, up in ccps face Last time we had a 40 page Tempest/Artillery thread, they locked it. /shrug I've been trying to find that thread, any chance you might have a link for it? I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:10:00 - [260] Originally by: Orakkus I've been trying to find that thread, any chance you might have a link for it? You could try Eve-Search for the major players at the time. IIRC, Astrophobic, NightmareX, Liang Nuren, and BozWel (not TraderBoz) were major "contributors". You may also be able to find Gamesguy posting a few times in the thread.

AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:11:00 - [261] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 03/08/2009 20:12:49 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Orakkus I've been trying to find that thread, any chance you might have a link for it? You could try Eve-Search for the major players at the time. IIRC, Astrophobic, NightmareX, Liang Nuren, and BozWel (not TraderBoz) were major "contributors". You may also be able to find Gamesguy posting a few times in the thread. "To mare" and "Transmanacion" (sp?) were also frequent posters in the later stages of the thread, if that helps you find it. ed: "Amanda Andouin" (sp?) too.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:13:00 - [262] This? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:15:00 - [263] Edited by: Kismo on 03/08/2009 20:15:06 Originally by: Bibbleibble This? No, that was the second one.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:15:00 - [264] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 03/08/2009 20:16:16 Originally by: Bibbleibble This? That's the one. How did I forget Cpt. Branko? ed: if you're talking about the one in the features/ideas or assembly hall or whichever, I didn't contribute in that one..
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:16:00 - [265] Originally by: AstroPhobic That's the one. How did I forget Cpt. Branko? Because he hasn't posted in damn near a year? It's a good reason. Good fellow - wonder if he still plays Warhammer. Did you have his contact info anywhere other than Eve-O?
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:18:00 - [266] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: AstroPhobic That's the one. How did I forget Cpt. Branko? Because he hasn't posted in damn near a year? It's a good reason. Good fellow - wonder if he still plays Warhammer. Did you have his contact info anywhere other than Eve-O? Sadly not. It's been a while since Liang has showed his face as well - wonder if he's off to better avenues, busy with RL last I heard. From what I saw of the guys who went to warhammer - they have dispersed or left that as well. I tried to find Liang but couldn't. Shame, too.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:21:00 - [267] Edited by: Kismo on 03/08/2009 20:21:35 Originally by: AstroPhobic Sadly not. It's been a while since Liang has showed his face as well - wonder if he's off to better avenues, busy with RL last I heard. From what I saw of the guys who went to warhammer - they have dispersed or left that as well. I tried to find Liang but couldn't. Shame, too. Ah, I'm sure Liang still reads the forums. Too much of a forum *** to let a cancelled account stand in the way. I bet if you tried to contact him on WHA today, he'd respond pretty well instantly with external contact info. :) Ed: Yes, last I knew Liang was very busy with 70-80 hour work weeks, and had really **ty internet at his house. Damn AT&T.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:25:00 - [268] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 03/08/2009 20:25:08 I was right! ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:26:00 - [269] Thanks for the link. Are there any more links outside of that one, hopefully with the mathmatics, as well as other various data. I'm going to try and hard push this on the CSMs. If not.. who knows, we may have to find a new CSM or two. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:27:00 - [270] Originally by: Bibbleibble I can't find any other threadnoughts about projectiles and the Tempest though. Could one of you who saw the thread give a brief summary perhaps? OP: "Why would I train Artillery? It sucks hard" Goum/Gamesguy/Amarr supporters: "No it doesn't, see, no cap use" Liang/Astro/Branko/etc: "OMGWTFBBQ GRAPHS" Goum/Gamesguy/Amarr supporters: "Oh, uhm, I'll go nurse my wounds"



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