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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.11 01:03:00 -
[481]
Originally by: AstroPhobic And alpha: I'll admit I haven't participated in a fleet fight in a while, but from what I have heard the lag has significantly decreased since the last few years. While the workaround to a specific lag problem may benefit alpha-heavy weapons, I wouldn't call it a benefit towards tempests or artillery. Alpha itself in a lag free environment isn't very useful at all especially when considering large numbers of ships. Finally, if you know you're going to be in a situation with large amounts of lag such as the above, fit out a tachpoc or tachbaddon. You'll have more DPS and more alpha than a tempest without having to worry about reloads.
True on both accounts, from my perspective. In a laggy environment, good luck getting your guns to reload or start firing again. With a laser boat, you just have to turn them on once.
Also, I've had some odd occurrences in laggy environments with regards to capacitor. That is, I have found that when local climbs over 1000, modules often quit using cap. I can think of several cases where my Maelstrom had both the MWD and shield booster (don't ask) stuck on, but my cap didn't drop below 100%.
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Traderboz
SlaveMart
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Posted - 2009.08.11 01:09:00 -
[482]
The thing is it's a subjective judgement. No one's arguing that the Tempest is absolutely worthless. It just comes down to advantages and disadvantages. The problem is that for most people, the disadvantages as outweighing the advantages.
Everyone's going to have a different opinion on whether the advantages of speed, explosive damage, etc. make up for the ship having crappy range, crappy damage (don't ignore reloading) and a host of other disadvantages. For most people, damage and range are going to be the primary considerations, and so the Tempest really falls flat on its face in that regard.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.11 01:19:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Traderboz The thing is it's a subjective judgement. No one's arguing that the Tempest is absolutely worthless. It just comes down to advantages and disadvantages. The problem is that for most people, the disadvantages as outweighing the advantages.
Everyone's going to have a different opinion on whether the advantages of speed, explosive damage, etc. make up for the ship having crappy range, crappy damage (don't ignore reloading) and a host of other disadvantages. For most people, damage and range are going to be the primary considerations, and so the Tempest really falls flat on its face in that regard.
Still, Minmatar do need a sniper... and the Abaddon (NOT Amarr's sniper BS) is a better sniper with 5 empty slots and 1 rig.
But yes, the Tempest doesn't have to be a sniper. It makes for a decent fast and agile platform onto which you can fit all sorts of odd modules nobody else in the fleet can be bothered to fit.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.11 01:51:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Ecky X
Still, Minmatar do need a sniper... and the Abaddon (NOT Amarr's sniper BS) is a better sniper with 5 empty slots and 1 rig.
(not strictly true, 'baddon does have cap problems... but you have 5 slots and 2 rigs to make up for it)
But yes, the Tempest doesn't have to be a sniper. It makes for a decent fast and agile platform onto which you can fit all sorts of odd modules nobody else in the fleet can be bothered to fit.
TBH I don't know how they're going to get around boosting artillery optimal as a whole or essentially telling all minnie pilots that they don't get a fleet BS.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.11 05:21:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Presidio
Tempest 6x 1400 Arty II (Tremor), Arup RR, Salvager Quad Lif, 2x TC II (Range), 2x SeBo II (Range) 1600 RT, 2x EANM II, DC II, 2x Gyro II ACR I, 2x Empty
317 dps, Optimal 140km, 44km falloff (184), a really nice alpha 3228 , 73K EHP without bonuses
Dare you to beat that. If 200km snipe range isn't required, tempest > all
Since we're talking about DPS @ 180km (per your previous posts):
Abaddon 6x Tach II, 2x Arup RR 100mn MWD, Hvy Cap Booster, 2x SeBo II (Range/Nothing) 2x EANM II, DC II, TE II, 2x HS II, RCU II 3x Locus I
329 DPS (+40)@175km, 313 DPS@180km 175+25km, 81K EHP, same RR effectiveness (while cap boosters hold up), better resistances, more range, better tracking, has a cap booster (but requires cap to fire guns), cheap rigs, etc.
A pretty graph
In a (terrible) simulation (yes, including damage type) that's horribly biased towards the Tempest by virtue of assuming everyone has cap boosters and sitting at 140km sitting still:
Sim: 10v10 (82.35) Presidio's Tempest [ID 0] reports destroyed (148.23) Presidio's Tempest [ID 1] reports destroyed (203.13) Presidio's Tempest [ID 2] reports destroyed (252.54) Presidio's Tempest [ID 3] reports destroyed (296.46) Presidio's Tempest [ID 4] reports destroyed (329.40) Presidio's Tempest [ID 5] reports destroyed (362.34) Presidio's Tempest [ID 6] reports destroyed (389.79) Presidio's Tempest [ID 7] reports destroyed (417.24) Presidio's Tempest [ID 8] reports destroyed (439.20) Presidio's Tempest [ID 9] reports destroyed (439.20) 6 Tach Sniperbaddon [ID 17] reports no targets (439.20) 6 Tach Sniperbaddon [ID 18] reports no targets (439.20) 6 Tach Sniperbaddon [ID 19] reports no targets Combat concluded in 439.20 seconds Battle Report: Presidio's Tempest started with 10 ships, dealt 877705 damage [1998.42 DPS], and took 472428 damage [1075.66 DPS]. 0 ships remain (0.00) 6 Tach Sniperbaddon started with 10 ships, dealt 1553056 damage [3536.10 DPS], and took 195386 damage [444.87 DPS]. 10 ships remain (0.97)
The Sniperbaddon simply tromps it even when using only 1 RR. Dunno man... seems like the pest falls a little short here?
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.11 11:45:00 -
[486]
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Ecky X
Still, Minmatar do need a sniper... and the Abaddon (NOT Amarr's sniper BS) is a better sniper with 5 empty slots and 1 rig.
(not strictly true, 'baddon does have cap problems... but you have 5 slots and 2 rigs to make up for it)
But yes, the Tempest doesn't have to be a sniper. It makes for a decent fast and agile platform onto which you can fit all sorts of odd modules nobody else in the fleet can be bothered to fit.
TBH I don't know how they're going to get around boosting artillery optimal as a whole or essentially telling all minnie pilots that they don't get a fleet BS.
People gave several Ideas for that. One is give falloff bonus to track enhancers and track computers. Would help nothing ammar a bit gallente and quite a bit minmatar.
Other is the change tempest bonuses to 10% damage and 10% falloff per level. But that one would result in a 8% dps drop. On an already low DPS BS that could be bad.
On my humble opinion, tempest bonuses can stay. Tempest sniper can be made reasonable by increasing PG by 15%, effectively removign the RC II needed usually. The flavor for the ship (why to use it instead of maesltrom for example) can be made by simply making the hip agile enough to warp out in <10 seconds WITHOUT mwd trick.
That must be kept in mind. When people say tempest is good sniper because it is agile.. that is pure crap. Because ALL BS align and warp on same FIXED 10 seconds time.
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Jarek Konecnik
Yakuza Corp THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2009.08.11 15:11:00 -
[487]
I don't read these forums, just needed the EFT link... but well
Pest is fine as it is imho. It's the only fleet snipe BS not dependent on cap, which sometimes gives it an advantage in larger scale battles. In DD proof fit, the DPS and range is quite comparable to other snipe battleships. Or better said, DPS is even (with better dmg type) and range is sufficient for the job.
It used to be a good solo boat, now we have Maelstrom instead. Also Phoon rocks and is the most versatile BS in EVE, so why do you need the pest for small scale pvp anyway? Yeah, pest suck a bit when not sniping, but on the other hand it is generally considered as the underdog so you have better chance to actually get engaged.
Originally by: AstroPhobic Solution:
Fix projectiles
Done.
Just imagined that and saw Maelstrom of uber doom chased by a dev with nerfmaul.
Originally by: Kismo stuff
Snipe RR gang? Yeah, they are all over the test server, right?! Sorry, but giving that as an example just doesn't make sense.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.11 15:22:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Jarek Konecnik Pest is fine as it is imho. It's the only fleet snipe BS not dependent on cap, which sometimes gives it an advantage in larger scale battles. In DD proof fit, the DPS and range is quite comparable to other snipe battleships. Or better said, DPS is even (with better dmg type) and range is sufficient for the job.
Did you check the math I had on the last page? The explosive damage offered by the pest doesn't in any way at all compensate for the terribad DPS.
Quote: It used to be a good solo boat, now we have Maelstrom instead. Also Phoon rocks and is the most versatile BS in EVE, so why do you need the pest for small scale pvp anyway? Yeah, pest suck a bit when not sniping, but on the other hand it is generally considered as the underdog so you have better chance to actually get engaged.
I think the domi is more versatile. Sure the pest has a little bit of bellicose fever, this is not a reason for it to remain the worst BS.
Quote: Just imagined that and saw Maelstrom of uber doom chased by a dev with nerfmaul.
I'll assume you've read none of this thread and haven't seen the math behind projectiles or even the lasermael that outdamages the AC mael past 11km. Projectiles are awful, and it has a lot to do with hit quality and falloff.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:37:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Jarek Konecnik
Originally by: Kismo stuff
Snipe RR gang? Yeah, they are all over the test server, right?! Sorry, but giving that as an example just doesn't make sense.
Nnnnoooooo, and I wouldn't say that they are. I was just pointing out that the the Pest doesn't even win at that contest, as had been suggested earlier in the thread.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:47:00 -
[490]
Maelstrom is only remotely uber if you have a crystal set and blue pills. Or if is a laser maesltrom.
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:51:00 -
[491]
Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 16:51:39
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Jarek Konecnik
Originally by: Kismo stuff
Snipe RR gang? Yeah, they are all over the test server, right?! Sorry, but giving that as an example just doesn't make sense.
Nnnnoooooo, and I wouldn't say that they are. I was just pointing out that the the Pest doesn't even win at that contest, as had been suggested earlier in the thread.
I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard. -
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:55:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Presidio I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.
[Apocalypse, Fleet] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Nanofiber Plates I F85 Peripheral Damage System I Adaptive Nano Plating II
100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Trimark Armor Pump I Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:09:00 -
[493]
Originally by: Presidio I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.
Dude! You're not allowed to reassert "It wins pretty hard" and then totally ignore my rebuttal to your initial assertion! But who am I kidding, you'll just say "LOL I DONT BELIEVE U" in some form or another. The Tempest *might* win the 140km battle (but I don't think so), but it damn sure loses the 160-180km sniper contest, even with RR.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:19:00 -
[494]
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Presidio I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.
Dude! You're not allowed to reassert "It wins pretty hard" and then totally ignore my rebuttal to your initial assertion! But who am I kidding, you'll just say "LOL I DONT BELIEVE U" in some form or another. The Tempest *might* win the 140km battle (but I don't think so), but it damn sure loses the 160-180km sniper contest, even with RR.
*secretly believes Presidio is Zulupark's alt...
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:19:00 -
[495]
Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 16:51:39
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Jarek Konecnik
Originally by: Kismo stuff
Snipe RR gang? Yeah, they are all over the test server, right?! Sorry, but giving that as an example just doesn't make sense.
Nnnnoooooo, and I wouldn't say that they are. I was just pointing out that the the Pest doesn't even win at that contest, as had been suggested earlier in the thread.
I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.
I think is not an argument, neither evidence neither useful when it goes against both evidences and arguments... by the very definition of the concepts.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:24:00 -
[496]
Originally by: Orakkus
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: Presidio I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.
Dude! You're not allowed to reassert "It wins pretty hard" and then totally ignore my rebuttal to your initial assertion! But who am I kidding, you'll just say "LOL I DONT BELIEVE U" in some form or another. The Tempest *might* win the 140km battle (but I don't think so), but it damn sure loses the 160-180km sniper contest, even with RR.
*secretly believes Presidio is Zulupark's alt...
*secretly believes that Zulupark is NightmareX's alt* ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:31:00 -
[497]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.
[Apocalypse, Fleet] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Nanofiber Plates I F85 Peripheral Damage System I Adaptive Nano Plating II
100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Trimark Armor Pump I Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I
slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements
just saying -
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:44:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Presidio
slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements
just saying
Did you ignore the past 17 pages or what?
Sorry, I can't deal with someone who goes "nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh". I tried to be civil.
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:46:00 -
[499]
Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 19:46:52
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio
slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements
just saying
Did you ignore the past 17 pages or what?
Sorry, I can't deal with someone who goes "nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh". I tried to be civil.
Which post disputes anything I said? show me? That's right none. Quit being a troll. -
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:50:00 -
[500]
Edited by: Bibbleibble on 11/08/2009 19:54:31 Edited by: Bibbleibble on 11/08/2009 19:53:23
Originally by: Presidio
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio
slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements
just saying
Did you ignore the past 17 pages or what?
Sorry, I can't deal with someone who goes "nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh". I tried to be civil.
Which post disputes anything I said? show me?
Damage types: here
Alpha strike, or more realistically the irrelevance of it: Pretty much the entire thread, and especially this thread we linked earlier.
Carrier Capacity: Being fixed in the next patch so it's no longer an issue.
Cap Stability: Been addressed time and time again. If you have a cap booster all your cap problems disappear, and if it is really that big a deal swap into Amarr navy Standard crystals and move closer to the POS. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:59:00 -
[501]
Originally by: Presidio Which post disputes anything I said? show me? That's right none. Quit being a troll.
You're making yourself look ridiculous. All of those points have been addressed within this thread. Putting your fingers in your ears doesn't change any of it. You seem content with minmatar - that's great. Go on thinking that the pest is a good choice for sniper-anythings, nobody here will stop you. Trying to disprove solid evidence, facts, simulations, numbers without bringing any of your own is just stupid.
You think the tempest is good? Show us YOUR numbers on why you think so. Think alpha is worth something? Show us YOUR simulations proving it. Think speed makes a big difference in a fleet battleship? It'll require more than a screenshot of you almost dead in a tempest.
I played your game, asserted your claims and disproved them. If you think your opinions can be backed up with any sort of evidence, do so. Otherwise take the last 17 pages of this discussion and start educating yourself.
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 20:00:00 -
[502]
Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 20:00:19
Originally by: Bibbleibble ...
The post you reference fails to make the point and it actually makes the point for me quite well. Most sniper BSs are armor tanked (90%) from the post.
Quote: Tempest: 152.7 DPS at 152km Apoc: 132 DPS at 171km
Currently you can't fit 2 apocs in a carrier. My statement is correct.
I said the fit above is not stable for POS bashes. And I am correct. You bring up a cap booster. You fail. -
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 20:03:00 -
[503]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio Which post disputes anything I said? show me? That's right none. Quit being a troll.
You're making yourself look ridiculous. All of those points have been addressed within this thread. Putting your fingers in your ears doesn't change any of it. You seem content with minmatar - that's great. Go on thinking that the pest is a good choice for sniper-anythings, nobody here will stop you. Trying to disprove solid evidence, facts, simulations, numbers without bringing any of your own is just stupid.
You think the tempest is good? Show us YOUR numbers on why you think so. Think alpha is worth something? Show us YOUR simulations proving it. Think speed makes a big difference in a fleet battleship? It'll require more than a screenshot of you almost dead in a tempest.
I played your game, asserted your claims and disproved them. If you think your opinions can be backed up with any sort of evidence, do so. Otherwise take the last 17 pages of this discussion and start educating yourself.
You need more EVE experience and less EFT. -
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.11 20:07:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Presidio You need more EVE experience and less EFT.
NightmareX would be proud.
If you're not going to be constructive, get out. Right now you're only being destructive.
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 20:13:00 -
[505]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio You need more EVE experience and less EFT.
NightmareX would be proud.
If you're not going to be constructive, get out. Right now you're only being destructive.
I am giving him and advice to play EVE more. How is that destructive? You on the other hand are being a troll. -
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.11 20:36:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 20:00:19
Originally by: Bibbleibble ...
The post you reference fails to make the point and it actually makes the point for me quite well. Most sniper BSs are armor tanked (90%) from the post.
Quote: Tempest: 152.7 DPS at 152km Apoc: 132 DPS at 171km
Currently you can't fit 2 apocs in a carrier. My statement is correct.
I said the fit above is not stable for POS bashes. And I am correct. You bring up a cap booster. You fail.
I agree, the cap booster comment is a bit fail. But don't assume that nobody bothers to bring logistics, carrier or otherwise, to a POS-bash. You can make a cap-stable fit on an geddon, apoc or abaddon that will beat the Tempest in nearly every way.
True, the Tempest has a slight damage advantage against non-Amarr (Amarr have higher base explosive resistance) armor tanked BS (with 35km less range), but that doesn't nearly make up for the nearly half effectiveness vs laserboats against shield tanked ships.
The fact is, Amarr battleships are negligibly slower than the Tempest, and on average have much better tanks and damage, at greater range, with greater tracking. They have the option to sacrifice damage or range for cap stability, or vice versa, while the Tempest has no way to increase its damage or range up to the level of lasers.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.11 22:08:00 -
[507]
Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 20:21:31
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio You need more EVE experience and less EFT.
NightmareX would be proud.
If you're not going to be constructive, get out. Right now you're only being destructive.
I am giving him an advice to play EVE more. How is that destructive? You on the other hand are being a troll.
No ammount of "experience" overrules math and logical annalysis. No ammoutn of experience will make tempest deal more damage at 180 km than an APOC. The game simmulation does not run different because you play a lot .. it plays the same!
People must stop with this childish egomaniac "you must play more and EFT less". Only EFT analysis is fail. Ignoring the factual data it gives and focusing on self illusory observations of an inflated ego prone to error mind... is 10 times more dumb.
Face fact EVE is 95% about stats, is not a game about player skills in 95% of time. Its not a flight sim. Its a game where a statistical analysis of the ships and setups on a given scenario will correspond with a very high ground of precision to the in game reality. Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion.
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.11 22:29:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 22:36:17 Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 22:35:43
Originally by: Seishi Maru [ Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion.
In all honestly I provided all the numbers to back whatever claim I made. I was not disproven by "the math and logic" on any on those points. My claims are situational. I gave certain situations, assaulting a cyno jammer. The situation has nothing to do with EFT and math. I suggest the guy plays more to see what I am saying. Instantly everyone is down my throat about it. -
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.11 22:35:00 -
[509]
Originally by: Presidio
Originally by: Seishi Maru [ Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion.
I disagree I think you are being destructive.
And I disagree on you.. see.. your point neutralized with exactly same strength as your argument.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.11 22:44:00 -
[510]
Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 22:42:05
Originally by: Seishi Maru [ Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion.
I disagree I think you are being destructive.
In all honestly I provided all the numbers to back whatever claim I made. I was not disproven by "the math and logic" on any on those points. My claims are situational. I gave certain situations as examples one being assaulting a cyno jammer and the benefits of RR in those. The situation has nothing to do with EFT and math. I suggest the guy plays more to see what I am saying. Instantly everyone is down my throat about it.
You gave some numbers and fittings, and I responded with numbers and fittings proving Amarr battleships can be better than the fit you gave us. Now you have to make a counter-arguement, or revise your fitting.
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