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Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.08.04 20:59:00 - [331] Edited by: Orakkus on 04/08/2009 21:04:01 Originally by: Bibbleibble We need to get a basic set of solutions for CCP to look at when Lark brings the issue up at the CSM meeting. So far we have agreed: -Reduce mass to help them be the fastest battleships (I have some numbers if no one else has any ideas, but I want to see what other people think) Ideas I agree with: -Combine Damage bonuses (7.5ROF or 10% damage) and give a falloff bonus/velocity bonus - All the Tier 2 Battleships are damage dealers, and the Tempest should not be the exception. -Increase Shield or armour hp - *One or the other, along with moving either a low to a midslot or a mid to a lowslot, though preferably a low to a midslot.* -Change slot config - See above -Increase drone bay to 100/125, with respective bandwidth - *This would be nice, but as mentioned before, if ACs/Arties get fixed, then this may become a non-point.* -add a turret hardpoint - *Yeah, I'd like this.* Regarding large projectiles, we have only really agreed on extra falloff and damage for AC (All you really can do without stepping on lasers or blasters toes too much) - *either that or improve the range penalties for all the ammo as well as put projectile damage ammo back in line with Hybrid and Laser ammo.* Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. - Same as above I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:01:00 - [332] Edited by: Ecky X on 04/08/2009 21:02:34 For Tempest: Combine damage bonus, give falloff bonus. Perhaps slight boost to agility and velicity to taste. For Projectiles: Leave the tracking bad, change ammos to 2 range types, each with 4 damage-type variants. Give artillery less optimal (whatever exactly is needed) but with huge falloff, so it follows the damage curve of lasers with different crystals. Maybe give artillery and autocannons an EM longerange ammo, and leave their DPS a bit lower. Make it so ammo damage types can be changed instantly, but without refilling the clip. 10 shots of EMP can be exchanged for 10 of fusion. Artillery ought to do a bit less DPS than lasers or rails, but not hugely less, since alpha is indeed a handicap in most fights. Just some off-the-top-of-my-head numbers: Lasers will do the same DPS as rails, trading cap use for the ability to switch ranges instantly. They will do an average of.. let's say 125 damage to shield and 75 to armor, due to their current damage types. Rails will be rails. They work equally well against armor and shield (100/100). They do the same DPS as lasors, with less cap use, but cannot change range quickly. Artillery will do, perhaps 90 (85?) damage to shield, 90 (85?) to armor. However, you will not have to change ammo at all as ranges change, except for the initial switch from short-range to long-range ammo, due to the long falloff curve. They will truly have the ability to probe for a resist hole with each shot. Leave their tracking and alpha handicaps () as they are. Y/N?
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:16:00 - [333] Edited by: Orakkus on 04/08/2009 21:17:24 Just to clarify: Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 04/08/2009 21:02:34 For Tempest: Combine damage bonus, give falloff bonus. Perhaps slight boost to agility and velicity to taste. For Projectiles: Leave the tracking bad, Having a fast ship, but really bad tracking = not a good idea. Tends to be counterproductive. Originally by: Ecky X change ammos to 2 range types, each with 4 damage-type variants. That's already the case, for example: Proton L\EMP L = Both EMP ammos, Proton has extended range at a damage price, EMP has damage at a cost of range. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:19:00 - [334] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 04/08/2009 21:21:02 Originally by: Orakkus Just to clarify: Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 04/08/2009 21:02:34 For Tempest: Combine damage bonus, give falloff bonus. Perhaps slight boost to agility and velicity to taste. For Projectiles: Leave the tracking bad, Having a fast ship, but really bad tracking = not a good idea. Tends to be counterproductive. Originally by: Ecky X change ammos to 2 range types, each with 4 damage-type variants. That's already the case, for example: Proton L\EMP L = Both EMP ammos, Proton has extended range at a damage price, EMP has damage at a cost of range. I think he's talking about artillery, when you'll be fighting at range, so the tracking is less of an issue. And the ammo is more something like this: PP, EMP, Titanium sabot and Fusion all have the same range and damage (just different types), and have the four long range ammos (Carbonized lead, Proton, Depleted Uranium and Nuclear) have the same range and damage too. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:43:00 - [335] Well alpha strike IS useful. But just not VERY useful. It adds a startign advantage on the first shot that myust be chewed by the other ships trough time. No the capability of killing on first blow makes no difference sine simply does nos exist enough situation where a tempest would kill on first blow but an apoc would not. The issue is the alpha advantage is automatically eliminated by the loss of dps from the frequent reloads of arties. Alpha strike to be useful must be much more impressive. 25% extra HP from the HP boost, T2 ammo nerf plus the 50% extra HP from trimarks made alpha well very little impressive.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:44:00 - [336] Originally by: Seishi Maru Well alpha strike IS useful. But just not VERY useful. It adds a startign advantage on the first shot that myust be chewed by the other ships trough time. No the capability of killing on first blow makes no difference sine simply does nos exist enough situation where a tempest would kill on first blow but an apoc would not. The issue is the alpha advantage is automatically eliminated by the loss of dps from the frequent reloads of arties. Alpha strike to be useful must be much more impressive. 25% extra HP from the HP boost, T2 ammo nerf plus the 50% extra HP from trimarks made alpha well very little impressive. Last time I did the maths I got the following alpha strikes with Tremor: Maelstrom: 12451 Tempest: 14007 Which seems reasonable to me, and should be enough to make a difference. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:46:00 - [337] Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: Beverly Sparks Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/08/2009 20:48:11 Originally by: Bibbleibble Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. Maybe a little bit of both blended with much more tracking, and some more DPS, with some cap usage, and locked Exp/Kin damage. The way I thought of doing was giving it a massive boost in falloff with a reduction in optimal (we're talking about half the current optimal for 4 times the falloff with tremor). That makes it pretty easy to hit sniper ranges with a fair amount of damage. The other change is two fold. I'd change tremor to give the same base damage as RF EMP, but give it a ROF penalty to keep it at the same level of DPS (60% would be about right). I'd also boost the damage mod to 24.43255 and increase the ROF to 25.5. But that's just me, and I'm sure other people can come up with different (and quite possibly better) ways of fixing artillery. changing tremmor does nto cut it. Short range combat is also very very relevant. All changes to damage shoudl be on the weapon itself i think. I prefer making ALL the fix on the weapons because the maesltrom needs a SLIGHT boost as well. (Check the laser MAelstrom vs AC maesltrom thread)
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:46:00 - [338] Originally by: AstroPhobic Does nobody take math classes anymore? I swear, how many times has it been proven that alpha is worthless, nay, detrimental? Don't worry though, he's ex BoB. He knows what he's doing. 20 ships with 100k alpha pop a BS with 97k EHP. 20 ships with 50K alpha fail to kill a BS with 97k EHP because it warps out after the first salvo seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Keep on smacking from your position of ignorance Astro. When in doubt smack! One thing I think people might not realise is how far below good a Tempest damage is. If you give a Tempest with AC's 10% extra damage it still won't be very good.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:48:00 - [339] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: Beverly Sparks Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/08/2009 20:48:11 Originally by: Bibbleibble Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route. Maybe a little bit of both blended with much more tracking, and some more DPS, with some cap usage, and locked Exp/Kin damage. The way I thought of doing was giving it a massive boost in falloff with a reduction in optimal (we're talking about half the current optimal for 4 times the falloff with tremor). That makes it pretty easy to hit sniper ranges with a fair amount of damage. The other change is two fold. I'd change tremor to give the same base damage as RF EMP, but give it a ROF penalty to keep it at the same level of DPS (60% would be about right). I'd also boost the damage mod to 24.43255 and increase the ROF to 25.5. But that's just me, and I'm sure other people can come up with different (and quite possibly better) ways of fixing artillery. changing tremmor does nto cut it. Short range combat is also very very relevant. All changes to damage shoudl be on the weapon itself i think. I prefer making ALL the fix on the weapons because the maesltrom needs a SLIGHT boost as well. (Check the laser MAelstrom vs AC maesltrom thread) What changing the ammo does mean is that you can project your alpha across the whole battlefield rather than just a small zone around your ship. I do also change the base damage mod which should help in shorter range combat. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:51:00 - [340] Originally by: Yakov Draken Originally by: AstroPhobic Does nobody take math classes anymore? I swear, how many times has it been proven that alpha is worthless, nay, detrimental? Don't worry though, he's ex BoB. He knows what he's doing. 20 ships with 100k alpha pop a BS with 97k EHP. 20 ships with 50K alpha fail to kill a BS with 97k EHP because it warps out after the first salvo seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Keep on smacking from your position of ignorance Astro. When in doubt smack! One thing I think people might not realise is how far below good a Tempest damage is. If you give a Tempest with AC's 10% extra damage it still won't be very good. WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike. A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)

Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:56:00 - [341] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 04/08/2009 21:56:35 Originally by: Bibbleibble WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike. A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see. You are not getting the point due to your pedantry. I could have said 25 BS's - it doesn't matter. The point is when you have enough Alpha you pop stuff - the numbers are just numbers.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:57:00 - [342] Originally by: Yakov Draken 20 ships with 100k alpha pop a BS with 97k EHP. 20 ships with 50K alpha fail to kill a BS with 97k EHP because it warps out after the first salvo seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Hey look I can theory craft too! Punisher fights Legion. Legion has a buffer tank and no web or scram. Legion dies because it cannot track the punisher. Punisher > Legion? Quote: Keep on smacking from your position of ignorance Astro. When in doubt smack! One thing I think people might not realise is how far below good a Tempest damage is. If you give a Tempest with AC's 10% extra damage it still won't be very good. Not my fault you can't bubble up a fleet. How about this one instead - those same ships fight, and one of the 20 ships with 5k alpha was delayed 2 seconds by lag, or his own ignorance, or slow reactions, or targeting slowly. The primary warps out before dieing seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Or wait, how about... a blasterthron and tempest meet at 20km. The tempest is faster and can therefore stay at 20km where his autocannons do more damage, kiting the megathron. The tempest is obviously better, no? Sound familiar?
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.08.04 21:59:00 - [343] Originally by: Yakov Draken Originally by: Bibbleibble WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike. A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see. You are not getting the point due to your pedantry. I could have said 25 BS's - it doesn't matter. The point is when you enough Alpha you pop stuff - the numbers are purely numbers and you are being a pedant. But then you ignore the fact that the lower alpha/higher ROF ships can effectively fire twice as often and have to reload way after the other ships. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:04:00 - [344] Guys are you really so decidated to your past positions that you can't see that increased alpha means increased ability to insta pop stuff when sniping? Truly you are squirming all over to avoid seeing this really obvious point - the whole point of alpha. If alpha gets increased it is easier to pop stuff - that is the point. None of your random plot logic can escape this.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:09:00 - [345] Originally by: AstroPhobic Not my fault you can't bubble up a fleet. Originally by: AstroPhobic How about this one instead - those same ships fight, and one of the 20 ships with 5k alpha was delayed 2 seconds by lag, or his own ignorance, or slow reactions, or targeting slowly. The primary warps out before dieing seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Ahahaha . . . wow that was funny. You do comedy right? The worst trolls are the ones like you who don't realise thats what they are doing.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:14:00 - [346] Originally by: Yakov Draken Edited by: Yakov Draken on 04/08/2009 22:01:01 Edited by: Yakov Draken on 04/08/2009 21:56:35 Originally by: Bibbleibble WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike. A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see. You are not getting the point due to your pedantry. I could have said 25 BS's - it doesn't matter. The point is when you have enough Alpha you pop stuff - the numbers are just numbers. To make your pedantry even worse one of the points being discussed is increasing alpha so making it easier to get close to 5k dps so you can pop that BS. and you dont get thae point that 90% of time you will have enough BS in fleet to insta pop the enemy bs Even with rails withotu fitting ANY damage mods! On current even combat scenarios alpha advantage doe snto exist! That is the same issue that I talked about earlier.. Balancing is not about makign a ship good at an imaginary situation. . Is making it good at a situation that EXISTS!!! 1v1 basically doe snto exist! Ships of exact fleet size where alpha will give an advantage does nto exist. Also on your example. The tempest fleet will kill the 1st bs. The second fleet will kill a tempest 4 seconds alter.. and thing will continue on. At the next salvo the tempest fleet cannot anymore kill the enemy fleet ships in 1 salvo. Therefore your alpha advantage lasted for 1 SHOT ONLY! 1 ship of 25! So stop with ilusionary situations. Some people here have programed and ran simmulation on the subject and no alpha strike at current level doe snot pose advantage at any meaningful level.
VekkTor 0ccam's Razor Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:19:00 - [347] you guys saying alpha doesnt matter have never seen a primary pop before your second volley, did you?? even in smaller gangs with say hacs/bcs alpha does matter, cos bses have slow scan res and dont get many shoots on things. <3 <- my emo sig starts from there
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:24:00 - [348] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 04/08/2009 22:25:51 Originally by: VekkTor you guys saying alpha doesnt matter have never seen a primary pop before your second volley, did you?? even in smaller gangs with say hacs/bcs alpha does matter, cos bses have slow scan res and dont get many shoots on things. and you have not seens that priamries pop before the secodn volley for most fleets of snipers? You have not seens that the common 100 APOC gangs we have nowadays can isnta pop as well as tempests? But at longer range, with better tracking, better long term dps, no reload? Alpha strike would need to be 2 times the second competitor to be a good advantage, Byt arties do not even have alarge advantage over tachyons. Check the alpha of a common tempest fit at 180 km versus the alpha strike of an apoc with tachyons. Yes 180 km because 140 km is NOT range any real fights happen. TEmpest has minimal advantage.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:33:00 - [349] Trying to argue alpha never matters is so obviously stupid I'm not going to go into your examples. So you can come up with examples that alpha doesn't matter in - so what? The argument being made was increase alpha so it matters more and your argument is but it doesn't matter right now - what? Are you being totally ignorant for a reason?
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.04 22:59:00 - [350] Originally by: Yakov Draken Trying to argue alpha never matters is so obviously stupid I'm not going to go into your examples. So you can come up with examples that alpha doesn't matter in - so what? The argument being made was increase alpha so it matters more and your argument is but it doesn't matter right now - what? Are you being totally ignorant for a reason? We nto sayign alpha does not matter at all. But that the SMALL alpha advatange the temepst has is almost irrelevant when compared to its disadvantages! ON real combat scenario not example REAL. you don 't have homogeneous fleet types. EXCEPT apocalypse fleets. FC will warp fleet at 170 or more KM. You will loose hits with your tempest. Your alpha strike will be even LOWER than other ships. And even if it was higher there is a very NARROW range of fleet size where the alpha strike advantage that small helps. The alpha striek advntage must be much higher so small groups of these ships can use them to 1 or 2 volley moderately sized ships. For example 4 tempest should 2 volley a BC with common fittings. Then we would have some value for the alpha strike. On the current conditions tempest alpha strike is inexistent at REALISTIC SNIPER COMBAT SCENARIOS.. and too small to be of use on smaller gangs. Math does not lie. Fights happen at situatiosn where tempest has no advantage. Situatiosn where tempest has advantage are things of the PAST of eve.

AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.04 23:17:00 - [351] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 04/08/2009 23:18:22 Originally by: Yakov Draken Originally by: AstroPhobic Not my fault you can't bubble up a fleet. Originally by: AstroPhobic How about this one instead - those same ships fight, and one of the 20 ships with 5k alpha was delayed 2 seconds by lag, or his own ignorance, or slow reactions, or targeting slowly. The primary warps out before dieing seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it. Ahahaha . . . wow that was funny. You do comedy right? The worst trolls are the ones like you who don't realise thats what they are doing. The point is, you're just as dumb playing theory craft the same as I am. Until you get a button that makes everyone fire at the exact same time, people will warp out when not scrambled. It's just that simple. You conveniently ignored the fact that the alpha ships would only have an advantage in this "scenario" for a tiny range of ships. If you only have enough alpha to do 74999 damage to a 75k ehp ship, your alpha is worthless. Also, once the "dps" ships are able to instapop any ships on the other side, the "alpha" ships lose out big time. The problem with playing your theorycrafts is the other guy can always say "but what if". Anyway we'll look at the extreme example shall we? Lets say you had a giant button that said FIRE that caused everyone in your fleet to fire on the primary at the exact same time, even though this is completely unrealistic and stupid. A fleet of tempests, 74k EHP and 3500 alpha every 10.4 seconds. vs A fleet of megathrons, 82k EHP and 1850 alpha every 5.3 seconds. It would take 24 tempests to instapop the megathron at a max of 140km. It would take 40 megathrons to instapop the tempest at 168km. So in this unrealistic scenario where things all fire at the same time, everyone is aligned and warps out as soon as they hit hull etc, and fire at 140km (lol), the "alpha" tempests only hold the advantage when fleet sizes are between 24 and 40. For every other sized fleet, the "dps" megathrons are superior. You claim I'm a troll but even when I play your silly game the truth becomes fairly evident. ed: my formatting was giving me a headache
nakKEDK Gallente tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.08.04 23:23:00 - [352] id any day choose mega>tempest in fleets. 10 sec rof is fail. have fun playing eve on paper k
Solid Prefekt Haven Front	Posted - 2009.08.05 04:52:00 - [353] Alpha meant something before the countless armor buffs where CCP wanted battles to last longer, however they never adjusted the Tempest for the extra ship EHP. What ended up happening is DPS became more important then Alpha. Couple that with CCP trying to specialize ships and now the utility/mid slots are of less value. As for Tempest needing a buff, I don't care. It really won't make much difference to the game.
VekkTor 0ccam's Razor Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.08.05 06:26:00 - [354] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 04/08/2009 23:18:22 The point is, you're just as dumb playing theory craft the same as I am. Until you get a button that makes everyone fire at the exact same time, people will warp out when not scrambled. It's just that simple. You conveniently ignored the fact that the alpha ships would only have an advantage in this "scenario" for a tiny range of ships. If you only have enough alpha to do 74999 damage to a 75k ehp ship, your alpha is worthless. Also, once the "dps" ships are able to instapop any ships on the other side, the "alpha" ships lose out big time. The problem with playing your theorycrafts is the other guy can always say "but what if". Anyway we'll look at the extreme example shall we? Lets say you had a giant button that said FIRE that caused everyone in your fleet to fire on the primary at the exact same time, even though this is completely unrealistic and stupid. A fleet of tempests, 74k EHP and 3500 alpha every 10.4 seconds. vs A fleet of megathrons, 82k EHP and 1850 alpha every 5.3 seconds. It would take 24 tempests to instapop the megathron at a max of 140km. It would take 40 megathrons to instapop the tempest at 168km. So in this unrealistic scenario where things all fire at the same time, everyone is aligned and warps out as soon as they hit hull etc, and fire at 140km (lol), the "alpha" tempests only hold the advantage when fleet sizes are between 24 and 40. For every other sized fleet, the "dps" megathrons are superior. You claim I'm a troll but even when I play your silly game the truth becomes fairly evident. ed: my formatting was giving me a headache i'm assuming that you guys have infinite ships with infinite range, except your tempests which can't get to 152km optimal Originally by: Solid Prefekt Alpha meant something before the countless armor buffs where CCP wanted battles to last longer, however they never adjusted the Tempest for the extra ship EHP. What ended up happening is DPS became more important then Alpha. Couple that with CCP trying to specialize ships and now the utility/mid slots are of less value. As for Tempest needing a buff, I don't care. It really won't make much difference to the game. yea that is the real matter, 2 hp buffs and the script 'nerf' pretty killed the old minnie sniper setups. this is what ccp wanted but then i cant get how comes megas/rokhs etc still have fine range and fit buffer tank while minnie ships dont. the problem with buffing/nerfing the weapon or the ship lies within the number of hardpoints and the type of ship bonus that different ships have. in this case, the tempest sucks even with rof+dmg bonus, arties suck in general <3 <- my emo sig starts from there
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.05 09:25:00 - [355] Bumping this... Come on folks...head on over to the Assembly hall and register your support for this thread. Roll up Roll up... -- "If itÆs true that our species is alone in the universe, then IÆd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little" George Carlin
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.08.05 10:23:00 - [356] Originally by: Solid Prefekt As for Tempest needing a buff, I don't care. It really won't make much difference to the game. No, it wouldn't change the game anymore then all of the minnie pilots training Amarr, or even Gallente to a lesser extent.
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:07:00 - [357] <- Notify: Medium Laser turret finished training to V.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:19:00 - [358] Edited by: Seishi Maru on 05/08/2009 11:23:22 What enrage me is that CCP said they wanted longer fights so the destroyed a balanced and fun environment removing alpha strike from game. But kept stupid things as titans that beyond anything else make fights last ZERO seconds. And on current fleet sized you will die in 5-10 seconds anyway so all their effort was FAIL. FAIL on achieving what they wanted and FAIL because they destroyed the tempest. Fights will never LAST while a game uses stupid HIT POINT as damage mechanics. Before the FIRST HP boost things were MUCH MUCH more fun. With lots of active tanks much more varied typed of fittings (yes each ship had its special fitting, but were different from each other, nowadays is EVERYONE fit plates and trimarks ) All this so called long fights desired culminated in the STUPID beyond beleif "targets of oportunity" on the station services that need 100 man fleets fto fire on them for 1 hour to have any result. PUT IN YOUR HEAD CCCP! LONGER IS MORE BORING!
irion felpamy Minmatar HellJumpers Corp Indecisive Certainty	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:30:00 - [359] I found a fix for the temepest, I got an ammar alt and cross trained this char to gallente. Problem solved. Tempest is dead, I can't be bothered draging it from its grave it is undignified.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:22:00 - [360] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Lord WarATron People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny. As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters. If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more. No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail ***** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1. You are talking to one of the top 1% of snipers in eve. Look me up, trust me - I know what I am talking about. People laughed at my DG fitted Rokhs - till they worked it out. They laughed at my Nightmare fit - till they worked it out. In fact, on these very forums they stated my Zealot sniper fit I suggested to someone was useless. I decided to use that Zealot and it is still alive after over 300 kills, most of which when outnumbered. Long story short. I know my sniping, but I do not see any sniping history for you. When I say Alpha matters, it does. Only time DPS>Alpha is when you are shooting pos, or have a dumb fc who wants 300 people to shoot a kestrel rather than co-ordinate fire. I checked out your kills on Battle Clinic, and yes they are impressive. But here's your problem: You snipe with lasers. You are flying the epitome of DPS over Alpha, and are a living example of what AstroPhobic is trying to prove. You are winning constantly without understanding the true reason why. Do you really think that if lasers had the same range, but the alpha and DPS of Artillery, you'd have the same results? Have you gotten any of your long list of kills using Artillery at all?



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