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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Traderboz
SlaveMart
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Posted - 2009.08.05 13:27:00 -
[361]
Are dudes seriously trying to argue alpha is a big deal in today's sniper fleets? Have you played the game in the last few years? Or for that matter, have you looked at the alpha of a Tachyon sniper? After comparing the alpha, check the dps/tracking/range and how often they have to reload.
Tempest can be made into a sniper, but it's a crappy one in comparison to other races. Outside of theorycrafting, alpha is a secondary consideration at best these days and at worst, it's all but meaningless.
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Merbusent
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Posted - 2009.08.05 14:03:00 -
[362]
If you noticed sleet battleships come tanked and with rr range of an apoc is no longer nessesary.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.05 15:03:00 -
[363]
Originally by: VekkTor
i'm assuming that you guys have infinite ships with infinite range, except your tempests which can't get to 152km optimal
I'm not following you.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.05 15:18:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Merbusent If you noticed sleet battleships come tanked and with rr range of an apoc is no longer nessesary.
Nope. Only some tiems they are RR. RR is another category. Fleet sniper s are that SNIPERS. And more than ever 180 km+ is MANDATORY!
And even when you RR the tempest is among the WORSE! Try fit a tempest for 150 km OPTIMAL with RR and 2 plates and 1 DC and 1 EANM. TRY IT!
Now try to do the same with an APOC or mega.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:00:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Seishi Maru Try fit a tempest for 150 km OPTIMAL with RR and 2 plates and 1 DC and 1 EANM. TRY IT!
You are forgetting that minmatar fight in falloff.
We are supposed to do 50% of our theoretical damage. Well, no that is too good too, lets add hit quality, and take it down into the 30's.
Yea, that's it right there, we just added flavor to the game. Now it is diverse.
You can either fly something that does High damage, with good range, and superior tracking or you can fly a tempest, which is totally different. It would be boring if you couldn't chose to be inferior, while still trying not to be.
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Joe Forumtroll
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:16:00 -
[366]
I`ve been playing MMORPGs for too long and I`m aware that the first impulse when a game mechanic doesn`t go your way is to whine a storm on forums. Hell, every thread that doesn`t contain questions is a whine thread in disquise. HOWEVER, if you really really want to affect the Development process of EVE and have a say in the changing and shaping of core game mechanics I can give you an advice. You RAGEQUIT!!! That`s the most effective way and eventhough I was gonna troll (that`s the whole purpose of this alt`s exitence) this is a serious and honest advice and I know this to be effective from personal experience. When you cancel EVE sub you get a popup and you have an option to type some text explaining your reason for quiting. This is where you strike. If you want a mechanic change you strike the company where it hurts.... the wallet? When enough people do it you come back after few months to check on a new expansion and what do you know, some game mechanics were also changed, you know, the ones you biatched aboout. Forum whining is for amateurs. Ragequiting is pro.
Glad to help.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:20:00 -
[367]
Interesting. Since we can't see who /ragequit over what, we don't know how many issues were actually addressed because of this.
However, there are many cases where forum threadnaughts have succeeded in drawing attention to issues, so I vote we continue this one.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:23:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Ecky X Interesting. Since we can't see who /ragequit over what, we don't know how many issues were actually addressed because of this.
However, there are many cases where forum threadnaughts have succeeded in drawing attention to issues, so I vote we continue this one.
We've already got a member of the CSM bringing it up at the next meeting.
We really need to get a proposal about how the fix the Tempest, and the other Minmatar battleships/large projectiles, finished and then give it to CCP to read.
If nothing else, I personally would want a response from CCP about what role they envisage the Tempest doing that means that it is ok at the moment. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:27:00 -
[369]
Edited by: Ecky X on 05/08/2009 16:28:01 Something I posted on the previous page:
I like the idea of being able to change damage type instantly. If you could change from explosive to EM like Amarr can change range, that would be true versatility. Just make it so changing ammo types exchanges the volume of EMP left in the clip for the same volume of fusion; reloads would be sepparate.
Of course, that wouldn't fix the Tempest... but there are already a lot of very good suggestions on how to do that.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:30:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 05/08/2009 16:28:01 Something I posted on the previous page:
I like the idea of being able to change damage type instantly. If you could change from explosive to EM like Amarr can change range, that would be true versatility. Just make it so changing ammo types exchanges the volume of EMP left in the clip for the same volume of fusion; reloads would be sepparate.
Of course, that wouldn't fix the Tempest... but there are already a lot of very good suggestions on how to do that.
If CCP could do that, that would be very good. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
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Nova Satar
Annihilate. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.05 16:52:00 -
[371]
moar DPS!
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.05 17:34:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Bibbleibble I personally would want a response from CCP about what role they envisage the Tempest doing that means that it is ok at the moment.
CCP assiduously avoid giving such statements when they don't want to change anything, as they know that any reasoning they give would be debated and possibly proven fallacious. I've only consistently seen the balance devs giving really detailed information when they're making a popular buff, as they know that players will be on-board for it.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:03:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
We've already got a member of the CSM bringing it up at the next meeting.
We really need to get a proposal about how the fix the Tempest, and the other Minmatar battleships/large projectiles, finished and then give it to CCP to read.
If nothing else, I personally would want a response from CCP about what role they envisage the Tempest doing that means that it is ok at the moment.
I reviewed some of the information that Zulupark gave regarding his own fits in the forums.. and it seems that we will likely get more of the same regarding that its "fine". The reason being is that there does appear to be a fit that matches what Zulupark says, though you would need pretty much everything at Level V to get there. Basically, if you think of the Tempest as a much more skill intensive Typhoon, then you might have an idea of why Zulupark (and the Devs) think its fine.
Yes, you can get a Megathron like armor tank on the Tempest, with a Megathron like DPS, but its extremely close range, slow moving combat, using T2 Hail and having all your Gunnery, Ship Command, Armor, Drone, Engineering, Electronics related skills at level V. In other words, a 40+ Mil SP ship, just so you can match a 9+mil SP Gallente Pilot in a Mega. I dunno about you but I'm not a big fan of skilling up for two years only to find out that I JUST became equal to a 6 month old player because he chose Gallente, and I chose Minmatar.
The real tragety(sp?) is that because Zulupark has 170mil SP in Gallente and Minmatar specs, he has no idea that he is completely unqualified to judge whether this ship is "fine" or not. The same go for the rest of the Devs, all of whom probably have 150+mil SP characters they fly around in and not having to skill up any critical skills in years.
I do agree with Bibbleibble though, we need to start somewhere, whether its with the Tempest, or the Guns, or start at the beginning with the Ammo, and go step by step. So, where do we begin?
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:15:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Orakkus
Originally by: Bibbleibble
We've already got a member of the CSM bringing it up at the next meeting.
We really need to get a proposal about how the fix the Tempest, and the other Minmatar battleships/large projectiles, finished and then give it to CCP to read.
If nothing else, I personally would want a response from CCP about what role they envisage the Tempest doing that means that it is ok at the moment.
I reviewed some of the information that Zulupark gave regarding his own fits in the forums.. and it seems that we will likely get more of the same regarding that its "fine". The reason being is that there does appear to be a fit that matches what Zulupark says, though you would need pretty much everything at Level V to get there. Basically, if you think of the Tempest as a much more skill intensive Typhoon, then you might have an idea of why Zulupark (and the Devs) think its fine.
Yes, you can get a Megathron like armor tank on the Tempest, with a Megathron like DPS, but its extremely close range, slow moving combat, using T2 Hail and having all your Gunnery, Ship Command, Armor, Drone, Engineering, Electronics related skills at level V. In other words, a 40+ Mil SP ship, just so you can match a 9+mil SP Gallente Pilot in a Mega. I dunno about you but I'm not a big fan of skilling up for two years only to find out that I JUST became equal to a 6 month old player because he chose Gallente, and I chose Minmatar.
The real tragety(sp?) is that because Zulupark has 170mil SP in Gallente and Minmatar specs, he has no idea that he is completely unqualified to judge whether this ship is "fine" or not. The same go for the rest of the Devs, all of whom probably have 150+mil SP characters they fly around in and not having to skill up any critical skills in years.
I do agree with Bibbleibble though, we need to start somewhere, whether its with the Tempest, or the Guns, or start at the beginning with the Ammo, and go step by step. So, where do we begin?
First step is to work out the role we want the ship to play. We have the choice of many different roles (high alpha sniper, mid range brawler, close range gank ship etc.), but the ship doesn't seem to suit any of the roles very well at all.
So people, what role do you want the ship to perform? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:20:00 -
[375]
The full out tank/gank tempest is completely outpreformed by the phoon in every area.
The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:31:00 -
[376]
Originally by: AstroPhobic The full out tank/gank tempest is completely outpreformed by the phoon in every area.
The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.
So you want to push the Tempest into more of a mid range brawler type ship, rather than a pure ganking ship? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:34:00 -
[377]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.
ACs and Artillery should both get not only a boost to falloff range (double it), but should get a bonus to damage in falloff. Maybe that could be the change to the Tempest's dual damage bonus it needs.
5% bonus to Large Projectile Damage per level 10% reduction in Falloff Damage Reduction per level (worded in CCPs typical Engrish style)
Originally by: Sera Ryskin And I have no idea what this bull**** about gang or solo is about.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:37:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: AstroPhobic
The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.
ACs and Artillery should both get not only a boost to falloff range (double it), but should get a bonus to damage in falloff. Maybe that could be the change to the Tempest's dual damage bonus it needs.
5% bonus to Large Projectile Damage per level 10% reduction in Falloff Damage Reduction per level (worded in CCPs typical Engrish style)
I wouldn't push it. Just settle for a 10% falloff bonus per level, its better in almost every way.
(And I have no idea how that would work exactly either ) ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:08:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: AstroPhobic The full out tank/gank tempest is completely outpreformed by the phoon in every area.
The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.
So you want to push the Tempest into more of a mid range brawler type ship, rather than a pure ganking ship?
I typed out a decent reply but the forums of course ate it.
Short answer: yes, because CCP won't change the phoon. The tempest needs to be more agile, faster, and acs need more falloff so they can be a good weapon system from 15-30km. The pest would make a much better midrange dps dealer and be much more effective at killing sub-bs classes.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:11:00 -
[380]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: AstroPhobic The full out tank/gank tempest is completely outpreformed by the phoon in every area.
The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.
So you want to push the Tempest into more of a mid range brawler type ship, rather than a pure ganking ship?
I typed out a decent reply but the forums of course ate it.
Short answer: yes, because CCP won't change the phoon. The tempest needs to be more agile, faster, and acs need more falloff so they can be a good weapon system from 15-30km. The pest would make a much better midrange dps dealer and be much more effective at killing sub-bs classes.
So about 8km extra falloff on ACs and a falloff bonus on the tempest? Would that work? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:18:00 -
[381]
Edited by: Ecky X on 05/08/2009 20:18:25 That, and tier'd falloff for larger guns, I think. However the Tempest would still need at least a 10% damage per level bonus.
What do most people usually use when graphing these formulas? I was scratching my head in excel for 2 hours yesterday, trying to decide how to go about it.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:20:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 05/08/2009 20:18:25 That, and tier'd falloff for larger guns, I think. However the Tempest would still need at least a 10% damage per level bonus.
What do most people usually use when graphing these formulas? I was scratching my head in excel for 2 hours yesterday, trying to decide how to go about it.
I made an absolutely massive spreadsheet when I was making all the graphs for my ideas thread.
If you want I can easily just rattle off a few graphs for you. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:29:00 -
[383]
Boos AC falloff no need to change temepst bonuses. It will not boost the typhoon much because typhoon main weapon system is the siege launchers.
Also the maelstrom with AC needs a bit of boost also.
AC in general need a boot. How you boot the tempest specifically.. give it a bit more agility,reduce its mass by 7% and give better fittings (so that RR arty ships are doable).
Massively do ANYTHING to arties that they will become better. Even rolling dice for the stats.
No need for massive changes on the tempest bonuses if the weapons are fixed.
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Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:46:00 -
[384]
Edited by: Eli Porter on 05/08/2009 20:46:46 The Falloff bonus is a given if you want to give it the sniper role, but I'm unsure whether Rate Of Fire or Damage would be better as a secondary bonus. That wholly depends on how Artillery is buffed, I guess. Currently, ROF is more fitting.
To make up for the inevitable loss in damage, giving it another turret slot and PG would work.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:49:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
So about 8km extra falloff on ACs and a falloff bonus on the tempest? Would that work?
I would stick with keeping any falloff bonuses to AC/Arties just because they would remove one of the current bonuses that the Tempest still needs.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:16:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Bibbleibble So about 8km extra falloff on ACs and a falloff bonus on the tempest? Would that work?
No - not even close. I've flown the Tempest in pvp a lot, now I fly the Typhoon, and some extra falloff isn't enough to see me back in my favourite ship.
Right now the Tempest is dual damage bonus (ie should be high damage) with 5 mids - keep the fundamentals the same just boost the damage and you will have a really handy ship. The Phoon is a very good gank/tank ship but the emphasis is on tank - 7 lows and split weapons systems making gank mods somewhat inefficient. A high damage Tempest would be a natural pirate gank boat with its low drone damage (this is good as gate guns pwn drones) and 5 mids. Considering its sails and all having the Tempest as a quality pirate boat is the way to go.
How much does a Tempests damage need to go up by? When using AC's I think ~15% more damage is needed before it becomes a good ship.
I have no idea why people think that giving the Tempest more falloff will solve the problem. A low damage long range ship will suck compared to Amarr BS's.
The problem with these threads is all the people making lots of forceful posts with no real experiance in flying Tempests.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:20:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Bibbleibble So about 8km extra falloff on ACs and a falloff bonus on the tempest? Would that work?
I'd say leave the bonuses as they are. The double damage bonus allows you to fit double neuts or double RR without completely gimping dps. An agility and speed fix allows it to at least be a mobile damage platform and the falloff fix will give it a longer reach. The phoon will probably still be a slighty better rr boat, but the pest will be a great anti support ship and a decent option for those of you that have not amasse the 50m sp required for the phoon.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:33:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Yakov Draken I have no idea why people think that giving the Tempest more falloff will solve the problem. A low damage long range ship will suck compared to Amarr BS's.
The problem with these threads is all the people making lots of forceful posts with no real experiance in flying Tempests.
Agreed, we certainly need graphs and charts before we finalize out collective opinion. However, several small changes left laser users unsatisfied, and for several weeks (months?) after the laser boost, some still claimed "it's not enough". It was a while before they realize what they had. It's possible we may do the same with projectiles; the Tempest is subpar for more reasons than just projectiles, and it needs to be changed like the apocalypse was, but we need to think this over carefully.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.05 21:51:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 05/08/2009 21:52:56
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Originally by: Bibbleibble So about 8km extra falloff on ACs and a falloff bonus on the tempest? Would that work?
How much does a Tempests damage need to go up by? When using AC's I think ~15% more damage is needed before it becomes a good ship.
This just made me think of something that would work pretty well, and not require massive changes, number crunching, and rebalancing.
Pull something similar to the Naglfar with the Tempest. Up its damage bonus a bit, so it has a 7.5% Damage, 5% RoF bonus, and in exchange remove it's Missile Hardpoints (I've never seen a fit that uses them, anyway).
It would then slightly outdamage a full-rack Maelstrom (3% more damage) without being overpowered, in CCP's eyes, by being able to fit missiles also. It's still "versatile", a bit low on HP, but now the thing has the teeth it's supposed to.
And then fix projectiles on top of that.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.05 22:00:00 -
[390]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 05/08/2009 22:06:42 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 05/08/2009 22:02:26 I'll assume you're talking about me, yakov. Personally I think the double damage bonus is fine, but autocannons themselves definitely need more falloff to do more dps at range. The fact is though and remains that minmatar has two double damage bonuses ships and the phoon fills and will always fill that role better than the pest simply due to bonuses torps and a full 125m3 of drones. A single extra (2 if you count the painter) mid on a pest isn't enough to differentiate itself from the phoon when looking at them as gang dps ships.
Speed, agility and the combination of the two utility highs and the utility meds will go a long way in seperating the pest from the phoon. There isn't really a favored anti-support bs at the moment and I think it would be a great spot to fill.
Ed: sorry about spelling/grammar, house floors are getting redone and the internet machine is packed away in a box somewhere, so typing on my phone. :/
Ed2: ecky, I don't think the amarr players understood that the 10% reduction of em resist on armor meant an increase of 25% em damage(!) on armor and an even larger 33% increase in em damage taken for minmatar ships.
$.02
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