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Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.07.28 06:25:00 - [61] I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
Omar Khayyam Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:10:00 - [62] Edited by: Omar Khayyam on 28/07/2009 07:14:30 imho tempest ship bonuses sohuld be like that: They seem to be autocannon boats according to their Powergrid so, lets make it a better autocannon boat: For each level of Minmatar Battleship: %7.5 Rof Bonus for Large Projectile turrets %5 Max Velocity Also: Low Slots : -1 Med Slots : +1 that would make tempest a really nice autocannon boat... i dont find accuracy falloff bonus is a usefull thing for autocannons, instead of starting fire with %50 reduced damage from max. range, it is better to catch the target in a closer range imho. ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :)
T Pain	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Shigsy Tempest is fine, ac's aren't. i kill you. lol their fine just not with hail lol
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:40:00 - [64] heck, i'd be glad if falloff was modified by tracking comps, ~ enhancers , or at least ~ links should've come naturally along with the tracking disruptor improvement, but i s'pose that was _too_ obvious... nerf optimal bonus on tracking enhancers anyway or at least explain the 35cpu of a tracking comp I and II, plz - putting the gist back into logistics
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:57:00 - [65] Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D. 2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3
Nova Satar Annihilate. Avarice.	Posted - 2009.07.28 08:15:00 - [66] Edited by: Nova Satar on 28/07/2009 08:19:00 somebodies changed their tune...... i remember about a year ago people moaned about it and kessah would reply along the lines of "no your noobs and just don't know how to fit it! PEST IZ DA BESTEST SHIP IS DA GAMEZ" only, less ****ed than that you get the picture EDIT: Thought i should add, yes the pest is **ed up, PLEASE look into it. The phoon does such a better job. Needs one more lowslot and 7 turrets imo
kyrv	Posted - 2009.07.28 08:19:00 - [67] Tempest is elite I love it for fleet ops, kinda want more fleet ops cos of it!
Arctic Angel	Posted - 2009.07.28 09:02:00 - [68] Originally by: Kismo 6x 800 AC II (RF EMP), 2x LRAR II 100mn MWD I, Hvy Cap Booster II (800's), Disruptor II, Web II, SeBo II 1600 RT, EANM II, DC II, 3x Gyro II 3x Trimark I 2/2/1 Ogre/Ham/Hob Same damage you have, but: - Has 80451 EHP vs 75294 EHP - Has tackle - Is homogenously tanked with the rest of the fleet - Carries a SeBo/ECCM That's a failfit for any RR gang, will melt before others have their reps on you. For a good RR ship you need 3-4 plates, eanm II's, DC II and maybe a damage mod. RR is about survivability, not damage anyway and even there a Typhoon will outclass a Tempest.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.07.28 11:01:00 - [69] Originally by: Arctic Angel Originally by: Kismo 6x 800 AC II (RF EMP), 2x LRAR II 100mn MWD I, Hvy Cap Booster II (800's), Disruptor II, Web II, SeBo II 1600 RT, EANM II, DC II, 3x Gyro II 3x Trimark I 2/2/1 Ogre/Ham/Hob Same damage you have, but: - Has 80451 EHP vs 75294 EHP - Has tackle - Is homogenously tanked with the rest of the fleet - Carries a SeBo/ECCM That's a failfit for any RR gang, will melt before others have their reps on you. For a good RR ship you need 3-4 plates, eanm II's, DC II and maybe a damage mod. RR is about survivability, not damage anyway and even there a Typhoon will outclass a Tempest. Duel plated at most. In RR you want to get your resistances up high so the RR that you are receiving has a multiplicative effect. Anyway, the tempest needs to be fixed so that it competes in EHP (buff PG), and projectiles need to be fixed so it competes offensively, task complete.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.07.28 11:04:00 - [70] Originally by: kyrv Tempest is elite I love it for fleet ops, kinda want more fleet ops cos of it! Yea, it is way better then an Apoc or a Mega.

Ecky X	Posted - 2009.07.28 11:43:00 - [71] Simply put, the Tempest cannot tank, and it does pathetic damage even with a double bonus. This would be ok if it had some other perks, but it's not significantly faster or more agile than other battleships, nor does it have significantly better tracking or lockspeed. It has more utility slots (read: slots you can't effectively fit dps or tank in) but most anything you could put in those slots would be better off as tank or damage.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 12:00:00 - [72] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D. 2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3 not an excuse. Typhoon can do the same while keepign more damage and more tank and faster..... also other battleshisp can fit 2 neuts and have more damage then tempest. Tempest shoudl be the battleship with more damage while fieldign only 6 guns (by a decent margin.. close to a 7 gun battleship) because it has 2 bonuses dedicated to that. Otherwise the 2 high slots are just a makeup for its failure.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:19:00 - [73] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D. 2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3 not an excuse. Typhoon can do the same while keepign more damage and more tank and faster..... also other battleshisp can fit 2 neuts and have more damage then tempest. Tempest shoudl be the battleship with more damage while fieldign only 6 guns (by a decent margin.. close to a 7 gun battleship) because it has 2 bonuses dedicated to that. Otherwise the 2 high slots are just a makeup for its failure. Give me a Typhoon fit that is superior at killing smaller ships than a tempest. I think Typhoons are better at taking on BS. I fly Gallente BS for max dps up close (2x webs for tracking issues), I fly Amarr for general purpose pvp for decent dps across wide ranges. I fly Caldari if I'm in a shield oriented gang. I fly the Tempest when I want to slaughter support ships. Other BS with utility slots either have torps which suck vs smaller targets, or they lack the range large AC with ambit rigs has. Don't fit gank and tank on the Tempest - fit up ambits, stay agile without plates and trimarks, and use heavy neuts. Its a small gang ships - much like the Hyp is a small gang ship. If you want something for a larger gang fly a sniper Maelstrom or a RR Phoon. Not every BS is supposed to do the gank and tank thing. Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You
To mare Amarr Advanced Technology	Posted - 2009.07.28 15:24:00 - [74] Originally by: Orakkus Originally by: To mare tempest is fine, projectiles are crap. fix projectile and the tempest is fine How about make all projectiles one damage type (like missiles) instead of spread across two or more damage types. not needed, all the turret do a spare dmg type leave to the missile pure damage selection. just put the projectile turrets in line with others turret damage its a race thing you fire what you have and at the end of the day its not a great difference if you shoot EM or explosive. having the choice to change dmg type is cool for PVE where you know exactly what you gonna fight but for PVP you will never know what enemy ship you will face and for sure you wont pend 10 second to chenge your barrage to Phased plasma just because a T2 amarr ships just jumped in. you can do it in solo but even in very small gang is not worth the 10 sec penality
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:06:00 - [75] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D. 2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3 not an excuse. Typhoon can do the same while keepign more damage and more tank and faster..... also other battleshisp can fit 2 neuts and have more damage then tempest. Tempest shoudl be the battleship with more damage while fieldign only 6 guns (by a decent margin.. close to a 7 gun battleship) because it has 2 bonuses dedicated to that. Otherwise the 2 high slots are just a makeup for its failure. Give me a Typhoon fit that is superior at killing smaller ships than a tempest. I think Typhoons are better at taking on BS. I fly Gallente BS for max dps up close (2x webs for tracking issues), I fly Amarr for general purpose pvp for decent dps across wide ranges. I fly Caldari if I'm in a shield oriented gang. I fly the Tempest when I want to slaughter support ships. Other BS with utility slots either have torps which suck vs smaller targets, or they lack the range large AC with ambit rigs has. Don't fit gank and tank on the Tempest - fit up ambits, stay agile without plates and trimarks, and use heavy neuts. Its a small gang ships - much like the Hyp is a small gang ship. If you want something for a larger gang fly a sniper Maelstrom or a RR Phoon. Not every BS is supposed to do the gank and tank thing. 2 damage bonus means it was made to be ganky. Also get a megatron with 6 Neutrons.. MORE damage than tempest and 2 utility slots with better tank and better drones.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:20:00 - [76] Originally by: Seishi Maru 2 damage bonus means it was made to be ganky. Also get a megatron with 6 Neutrons.. MORE damage than tempest and 2 utility slots with better tank and better drones. You said it better the last time. I don't think the tempest is meant to be ganky. The 6 guns in combination with the damage bonus is suppose to give it 2 utility slots without sacrificing damage. You can't really compare short range guns like you are doing. You can compare long range guns like that since they are in direct competition at equal ranges. But obviously on short range guns range is so much more important. If AC's had the same optimal as Pulse lasers, and the same tracking as they have now, people would not be complaining as much. So saying that 6 Neutron is better damage then 6 800mm's is not a full view of the situation. It will always be like that as long as AC's have better range. That is the whole reason why pulse lasers are broken. They have the range and the damage, and the tracking does not adequately deal with lowering the damage in too many situations, because of Webs and meta game.
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:23:00 - [77] It is underpowered compared to the other tier II BSs, except maybe the Mega (blaster damage can be theoretical). Replace the damage bonus with a decent falloff bonus (7.5?), increase the rof bonus to 7.5 (should actually be done for all Matari ships with the piddly 5% rof bonus), and increase the turret hardpoints and grid to allow 7. This would give it sniping and ac help. I'm more concerned with the sniping. An optimal bonus would not impact ac enough and the falloff would still help the arty sniping ability while giving it that Minmatar flavor.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:28:00 - [78] Originally by: Arctic Angel Originally by: Kismo 6x 800 AC II (RF EMP), 2x LRAR II 100mn MWD I, Hvy Cap Booster II (800's), Disruptor II, Web II, SeBo II 1600 RT, EANM II, DC II, 3x Gyro II 3x Trimark I 2/2/1 Ogre/Ham/Hob Same damage you have, but: - Has 80451 EHP vs 75294 EHP - Has tackle - Is homogenously tanked with the rest of the fleet - Carries a SeBo/ECCM That's a failfit for any RR gang, will melt before others have their reps on you. For a good RR ship you need 3-4 plates, eanm II's, DC II and maybe a damage mod. RR is about survivability, not damage anyway and even there a Typhoon will outclass a Tempest. I don't disagree at all. The purpose of concocting the fit was to show that the comparison was deeply flawed. Replacing the damage mods with EANMs and a plate (lows = 2x 1600 RT, 3x EANM, DC) would be my preferred fit - and it still comes off far superior to the Geddon because of the extra mids. BUT, I wouldn't bring a Tempest to a RR BS gang at all... Gimmeh Mah Phoon!
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.07.28 18:01:00 - [79] Originally by: Kismo I don't disagree at all. The purpose of concocting the fit was to show that the comparison was deeply flawed. Replacing the damage mods with EANMs and a plate (lows = 2x 1600 RT, 3x EANM, DC) would be my preferred fit Yep, that is what the lows look like in a "Real" RR tempest.
To mare Amarr Advanced Technology	Posted - 2009.07.28 18:08:00 - [80] Edited by: To mare on 28/07/2009 18:11:10 Originally by: Lili Lu It is underpowered compared to the other tier II BSs, except maybe the Mega (blaster damage can be theoretical). Replace the damage bonus with a decent falloff bonus (7.5?), increase the rof bonus to 7.5 (should actually be done for all Matari ships with the piddly 5% rof bonus), and increase the turret hardpoints and grid to allow 7. This would give it sniping and ac help. I'm more concerned with the sniping. An optimal bonus would not impact ac enough and the falloff would still help the arty sniping ability while giving it that Minmatar flavor. the bonus of matar ship are ok. AC need a damage between blaster and pulse, they supposed to be the weapon with the range between blaster and pulse they should have a dps in that zone as well. damage VS range is one of the oldest rule in eve. arty need their alpha advantage back. tracking computer and tracking enhancer should affect falloff in the same way they affect optimal, this wouldnt make the artillery the best sniping weapon but will give to arty a bit of extra range. ship bonus are fine. ed: forgot to say AC and arty falloff should scale with the tier of the gun.

To mare Amarr Advanced Technology	Posted - 2009.07.28 18:18:00 - [81] Originally by: Omarvelous I like the tempest - its the best BC killer. Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. shrug almost any bs can do as well as a tempest at killing BC if fitted for that. the only problem is that the other BS can go ahead and do what a BS is supposed to do
1600 RT	Posted - 2009.07.28 18:22:00 - [82] Originally by: T Pain Originally by: Shigsy Tempest is fine, ac's aren't. i kill you. lol their fine just not with hail lol atm hail is the best T2 close range ammo if compared to conflagration and void. not saying i use it cause its crap anyway but it could have a use.
Reela Virge	Posted - 2009.07.28 18:56:00 - [83] Things that I think hurt the tempest and have stopped me from flying it as much as I used to: - HP buffs: percentage wise, ships with more HP on their tanking layer gain more then ships with HP more equally spread over layers, such as Tempest - nos nerf: reduced utility of Tempest highslots that it has available. Nos had to be nerfed however, other ships took nos abuse to extremes. - ecm nerf: ECM nerf reduced utility of that extra mid tempest has over other battleships(most having 4). Same situation as with nos nerf though, other ships were taking it to extremes again. - last pulse laser boost(yes, really): pulse lasers were pretty decent and not ~overpowered~ before the tracking boost pulse lasers received. Now they're just silly. Beat autocannons on dps, beat blasters on range. I'd like to see them drop a high to a mid slot and add 25 Mbit/s drone bay. Alternatively it could be nice if they would make the Tempest 7(5T, 3L)/6/6 with changed bonuses of 7.5% rate of fire, 5% damage. Bonus changes so it keeps same dps as before from guns. Also change the maelstrom to have 5% projectile damage instead of rate of fire. Idea being to make the Tempest more suited to autocannons(lower volley/dps) while maelstrom is more suited to artillery(higher volley/dps) I don't think it's just a ship change that is needed, I can't say what should change on autocannons specifically but they're not as nice as they perhaps should be. I'm thinking the ammo is due for a change, perhaps consider making it viable to change T1 ammo for autocannons, right now it's EMP or Barrage for AC's, 2 choices out of 10.
EFT Worrier	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:14:00 - [84] Large blasters are also suffering from "Large energy turret syndrome". The problem here is pulse lasers, not ACs or blasters.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:32:00 - [85] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Seishi Maru 2 damage bonus means it was made to be ganky. Also get a megatron with 6 Neutrons.. MORE damage than tempest and 2 utility slots with better tank and better drones. You said it better the last time. I don't think the tempest is meant to be ganky. The 6 guns in combination with the damage bonus is suppose to give it 2 utility slots without sacrificing damage. You can't really compare short range guns like you are doing. You can compare long range guns like that since they are in direct competition at equal ranges. But obviously on short range guns range is so much more important. If AC's had the same optimal as Pulse lasers, and the same tracking as they have now, people would not be complaining as much. So saying that 6 Neutron is better damage then 6 800mm's is not a full view of the situation. It will always be like that as long as AC's have better range. That is the whole reason why pulse lasers are broken. They have the range and the damage, and the tracking does not adequately deal with lowering the damage in too many situations, because of Webs and meta game. the problem is that the range advantage of AC today is REALLY minimal almost irrelevant. If you setup the damage curves. between 0 and 20 km the 800mm wins with barrage against a T2 NEutron with null on a VERY tiny margin. And at same time it looses all ranges against MPulse. A tempest with 6 Guns should deal less damage than a megatron at point blank.. but at 10 Km it should outdamage the megatron, shoudl outdamage by a LOT a megatron with 6 guns at 10 km. At same time it should outdamage an armageddon with only 6 guns at point blank! On same way a maelstrom should Not outdamage a hyperion point blank, but should outdamage the hyperion around 10-15 km and should outdamage the abaddon at point blank!
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:38:00 - [86] Originally by: EFT Worrier Large blasters are also suffering from "Large energy turret syndrome". The problem here is pulse lasers, not ACs or blasters. nope is not. Simple example is a maelstrom with T2 blasters outdamage a Maelstrom with t2 AC up to 10 km... Blasters need some more flavor and adjustments due to the speed changes.. but AC need a MASSIVE RESCUE! Just change AC so that the following is truth. Maelstrom should have damage between Hyperion and Abaddon at point blank... poitn blank with t1 AMMO!!! ALl with same number of damage mods! Main way to d it? REBALANCE AMMO!!!!! EMP MUST have same base damage as MF and AM. No.. better.. make FUSION the highest damage ammo and make it match AM damage. DO not compare with t2 ammo because only race taht needs to use t2 close range ammo is minmatar. Because other races faction ammo neraly matches the damage from T2 ammo but with no penalties. Minmatar needs to drop to T2 close range ammo to get same damage.. but then with the massive penalties.
Lisento Slaven The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:51:00 - [87] In my opinion I think the Tempest should be taken off the typical gank/snipe/tank roles that are assigned to battleships. Give it utility bonuses. If you want gank you go the Typhoon route. If you want tank you go the Maelstrom route (although Mael has some pretty good gank in there). Personally, all I find myself using the Tempest for is remote repping other gang mates and using tracking disruptors + point + web + bump techniques against targets. A whole wing of ECM drones thrown in as well. If I want to gank my target I fly an Armageddon. If I want to tank my target I fly the Maelstrom or Abaddon or Dominix. I would much rather see the tempest with a MUCH higher base speed then other battleships combined with utility bonuses (remote rep range/amount bonus perhaps? Maybe toss in the web bonus that seems to be on the Huginn/Rapier?). I don't want to see the Tempest become just another BS that has damage bonus + tank bonus. It's uncreative (ie. an easy "out" for people in positions of responsibility/design) and EVE needs more "unique" ships quite frankly. Make the Tempest cool. --- Put in space whales!
Anabella Rella Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.28 20:09:00 - [88] Originally by: Ecky X Simply put, the Tempest cannot tank, and it does pathetic damage even with a double bonus. This would be ok if it had some other perks, but it's not significantly faster or more agile than other battleships, nor does it have significantly better tracking or lockspeed. It has more utility slots (read: slots you can't effectively fit dps or tank in) but most anything you could put in those slots would be better off as tank or damage. That's the problem in a nutshell. My question is; since everyone knows that Minmatar BS suck...err, need some help...and the way to fix them is pretty much established as well (revamp large projectiles, fix projectile ammo, change slot layouts to reflect a better defined role) what's taking so long to make these changes?
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.07.28 20:39:00 - [89] I'm going to re-quote myself because it seems necessary. It's obvious that the problem stems from large projectiles. The tempest also has no noticeable advantage over either other battleship in any roles. Make it lighter, faster, and fix projectiles. Originally by: AstroPhobic Solution: Fix projectiles Give it the agility/speed of the cane Done.
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.07.28 20:51:00 - [90] Originally by: Anabella Rella Originally by: Ecky X Simply put, the Tempest cannot tank, and it does pathetic damage even with a double bonus. This would be ok if it had some other perks, but it's not significantly faster or more agile than other battleships, nor does it have significantly better tracking or lockspeed. It has more utility slots (read: slots you can't effectively fit dps or tank in) but most anything you could put in those slots would be better off as tank or damage. That's the problem in a nutshell. My question is; since everyone knows that Minmatar BS suck...err, need some help...and the way to fix them is pretty much established as well (revamp large projectiles, fix projectile ammo, change slot layouts to reflect a better defined role) what's taking so long to make these changes? Because they have one person on the development team who thinks he's the end all and be all of Tempest experts. Last time we had this major discussion regarding this, he basically came on and said the Tempest was fine (even though he was later pressed into agreement on some points) and talked about all the things he's done recently with his Tempest and that its a good BS. In other words, he got him and a couple buddies.. they ganked someone.. determined the problem to be a non-issue, and told everyone they were wrong and go about your business. If someone knew who that dev was and what the name of the topic was, I'd love to link it. We had a "Fix Projectile" thread going on for over two years with no luck on that either. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.



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