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Chris Cooley
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:42:00 -
[391] - Quote
Totally agree with the OP. The recent heavy high sec griefing has imbalanced the game considerably. ORE boats need a big buff and or greifers need a larger penalty.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7466
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:43:00 -
[392] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Gameplay isnt fine, Hulks have to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. No, they don't.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
baltec1
1227
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:43:00 -
[393] - Quote
Jeniam Retriat wrote:baltec1 wrote:You can alpha a 1bil tengu in a tornado and kill most transports in a destroyer. Like everything if you fit no defences and people can profitfrom your death they will go for it. Yeah, but even if you fit defences on a Hulk or a Mack people can still profit from killing you. It's more effort, but it doesn't result in negative ISK unless the loot gods hate you.
No they cant. It take 3-4 destroyers to kill a a well tanked mac and anything up to 10 to kill a supertank hulk. It is not possible to make a profit from suicide ganking that kind of ship. |
baltec1
1227
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:43:00 -
[394] - Quote
Chris Cooley wrote:Totally agree with the OP. The recent heavy high sec griefing has imbalanced the game considerably. ORE boats need a big buff and or greifers need a larger penalty.
Space is just as safe now as it was 6 years ago for hulks. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
474
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:47:00 -
[395] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Gameplay isnt fine, Hulks have to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield.
Just like a T3 has to give up a large chunk of its defensive capabilities to run 3 links? Just like a Guardian/Basilisk has to be fit with basically no tank to run a 6 rep setup? Just like a carrier has to give up fitting basically any sort of tank to perma-triage? Just like literally everyone who flies an armor tanked ship has to find an optimal balance between tanking and damage?
Why should Hulks be an exception to such tradeoffs? eh |
wiskyjack
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
1
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:51:00 -
[396] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:wiskyjack wrote:It's simple, just think of eve as being like WW II
Jesus... did I upset your delicate goon sensibilitys,
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Chris Cooley
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:52:00 -
[397] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:RubyPorto wrote: Everyone makes tradeoffs. Miners have simply decided that 2x MLU Hulk is the baseline for mining in a Hulk and started making arguments from that false premise. The baseline for a Hulk is 0 MLUs.
So 8500 ships blew up in Hulkageddon because of bad fits eh... nothing to do with the ships baseline attributes, its the fitting thats totally to blame. Try and be objective, you might find it enlightening.
werd |
baltec1
1227
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:01:00 -
[398] - Quote
Chris Cooley wrote:Ten Bulls wrote: So 8500 ships blew up in Hulkageddon because of bad fits eh... nothing to do with the ships baseline attributes, its the fitting thats totally to blame.
Try and be objective, you might find it enlightening.
werd
The base stats of the hulk are in the same ballpark as heavy assault ships in defence.
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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
9
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:05:00 -
[399] - Quote
Chris Cooley wrote:Totally agree with the OP. The recent heavy high sec griefing has imbalanced the game considerably. ORE boats need a big buff and or greifers need a larger penalty.
A hulk can easily get around 20k ehp, with low skills. That's plenty to survive the average gank in highsec.
Not sure what the problem here is. |
Jeniam Retriat
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:10:00 -
[400] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jeniam Retriat wrote:baltec1 wrote:You can alpha a 1bil tengu in a tornado and kill most transports in a destroyer. Like everything if you fit no defences and people can profitfrom your death they will go for it. Yeah, but even if you fit defences on a Hulk or a Mack people can still profit from killing you. It's more effort, but it doesn't result in negative ISK unless the loot gods hate you. No they cant. It take 3-4 destroyers to kill a a well tanked mac and anything up to 10 to kill a supertank hulk. It is not possible to make a profit from suicide ganking that kind of ship.
You'd probably know better than me, but the best Hulk tank fits I've found are still only about 30k EHP, whereas a 2mil gank cata can do >6k in under 15 seconds. Obviously I'm not counting bait hulks that don't have strip miners, and I guess an off-grid booster could swing things in the Hulk's favour, but that seems about as far as you can take it. For Macks it's only about 18.5k, which would be about 3 Catas, though the fit on that is also cheaper. |
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baltec1
1227
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:24:00 -
[401] - Quote
Jeniam Retriat wrote:
You'd probably know better than me, but the best Hulk tank fits I've found are still only about 30k EHP, whereas a 2mil gank cata can do >6k in under 15 seconds. Obviously I'm not counting bait hulks that don't have strip miners, and I guess an off-grid booster could swing things in the Hulk's favour, but that seems about as far as you can take it. For Macks it's only about 18.5k, which would be about 3 Catas, though the fit on that is also cheaper.
We tested this on sisi at the start of the year before the two ice interdictions. 3 catalysts will not kill a supertank hulk, 3 tornados can pull it off but a 4th is needed to garentee the kill. You also do not get 15 seconds in a lot of high sec. |
EVE Roy Mustang
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:30:00 -
[402] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:
6.) Demanding that one play style is wrong and it should be curbed goes directly against the concept of the sandbox.
ah, like James 315 and the gankers are DOING to the miners? Glad you agree with the miners then.
RubyPorto wrote:wiskyjack wrote:It's simple, just think of eve as being like WW II
Jesus...
no... WWII, youre thinking too far back |
Fred Lodenstane
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:32:00 -
[403] - Quote
You know it would be more effective finding ways to defend yourself than convincing CCP that hulkageddon is a form of griefing. After all, CCP makes it clear in all their comments about such matters that the responsibility falls on the player to defend themselves from other players, and such a thing is not CCP's job. CCP considers griefing to be anything mean or hurtful targeted against a specific character, which in this case does not apply since hulkageddon affects all miners in highsec and lowsec. Instead of posting here people can quite easily defend themselves by having logistic ships rep their hulks while they mine (seriously, this all but stops just about any ganker and I'm amazed it isn't used more often) or maybe even shield repair drones for those with less skills. Hulks don't need a buff, players just need to bring support fleets to protect their miners, just like how PvP fleets need to bring along support in order to be effective.
This Hulkageddon, which is three weeks linger than the usual event should be a wake-up call for miners ever that they need to change their fleet comps and really start thinking about game mechanics in order to keep their precious and expensive ships alive. Mining is something that is incredibly risky when done alone or with few people as the losses fall just on one person. What I hope to see emerge from this Hulkageddon are more organized and smarter miners. People are always whining about Goonswarm and their giant coalition which can essentially step on anyone else with little consequence, particularly people in highsec because there is so little organization and unity between those who solely reside there. The game would be a lot more interesting if a highsec coalition existed to challenge nullsec blocs like TEST, Goons, and others.
Do I think any of this actually has a chance of happening? No. The majority of people who actually live in highsec would have to get along and interact with each other to pull this off and considering most don't even read this forum or any news (take the op as an example of one such infrequent poster prior to losing his untanked hulk).
The point is, don't ask for game changes learn to defend yourself. That doesn't mean you have to take up PvP, it just means learning how to support one another in dangerous times. |
hedge betts Shiyurida
State War Academy Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:34:00 -
[404] - Quote
wiskyjack wrote:It's simple, just think of eve as being like WW II
miners = Jews Goon/ CFC= Waffen SS Mittani = H!tler Hulkageddon = death camp
Learn to duck and dive and you will survive. I've had the same Hulk for 2 years, it's gone from high to low to high and back to low sec . This
Cup the balls, and work the shaft |
EVE Roy Mustang
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:34:00 -
[405] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Gameplay isnt fine, Hulks have to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. No, they don't.
really... post the build that gets max defense and max yield at the same time tippia, Im calling you on that BS |
baltec1
1227
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:37:00 -
[406] - Quote
EVE Roy Mustang wrote:Ludi Burek wrote:
6.) Demanding that one play style is wrong and it should be curbed goes directly against the concept of the sandbox.
ah, like James 315 and the gankers are DOING to the miners? Glad you agree with the miners then.
Because miners are the only people getting attacked and killed in space. |
baltec1
1227
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:38:00 -
[407] - Quote
EVE Roy Mustang wrote:Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Gameplay isnt fine, Hulks have to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. No, they don't. really... post the build that gets max defense and max yield at the same time tippia, Im calling you on that BS
In those three words please tell me where tippia said that was possible. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
142
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Posted - 2012.05.29 14:38:00 -
[408] - Quote
EVE Roy Mustang wrote:Ludi Burek wrote:
6.) Demanding that one play style is wrong and it should be curbed goes directly against the concept of the sandbox.
ah, like James 315 and the gankers are DOING to the miners? Glad you agree with the miners then. RubyPorto wrote:wiskyjack wrote:It's simple, just think of eve as being like WW II
Jesus... no... WWII, youre thinking too far back
But you can still mine. With proper support, a decent tank, or even moving to a less traveled system. For example, there are systems in khanid kingdom that are hi sec, but are empty. It take little to no time to gain the standing needed to anchor a pos. If anyone shows up, warp to pos.
The converse, removing ganking would eliminate a style or play.
See, part of the problem is that miners wish to put minimal effort in, and still gain maximum yield and profit. It would be similar to level 4 mission runners demanding the ability to tank and tear through all missions with a rookie frig. Allowing tanking simply balances out the risk verse reward for miners, much like risk vs reward being balanced in other fields. |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
9
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:11:00 -
[409] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote: See, part of the problem is that miners wish to put minimal effort in, and still gain maximum yield and profit.
I totally agree with this. A lot of highsec miners are lazy. They fit 3 x cargo rigs which lowers their armor even more, so they can AFK mine more efficiently, or simply because they don't know any better.
The other day I saw an Orca in a belt, mining with mining drones... I suppose that's a bit better than slapping a mining laser on an industrial ship lol. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
980
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:15:00 -
[410] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
I pointed out the insurance Nerf to point out the fact that it's not a buff to the Hulk/nerf to the Gankers that the miners want, it's the banning of the practice of suicide ganking entirely. The calls for buffs/nerfs are just the baby steps they're trying to get through on the way.
You got gankers nerfed (it now costs ~15m or so to kill a tanked Hulk when it used to cost ~10m in an insured Brutix). You're not happy with that. You got miners income buffed (Drone poop nixed, a good thing overall), and you're not happy with that.
Years ago, you got CONCORD buffed to what it is today (before the buff, Suicide Ganks involved a lot less suicide), and you're not happy with that.
If we buff Hulks, whaddya wanna bet you won't be happy with that?
"You" did this "you" did that...
No, "I" recall asking for nerfs on hi sec missions and incursions not on suicide ganking.
I am not happy or unhappy, I am writing simple considerations.
One of these considerations is this: there's failfit expensive ships going all around hi sec yet they are not made targets.
Why?
I mean, why would a suicide ganker only go after mining ships with all the expensive stuff flying under their nose?
If they ignore most Tengus / CNR / Golem and similar (show me the 8500 killmails...), it's certainly NOT because:
- Killing them is impossible - Concord protects them better - It's not profitable - They are all fitted like a pro, with awesome buffer tank and all round resists. - They warp like a nano cov ops - Their pilots would never shower tears in local when killed
So what's the factor that tells the suicide ganker: "let's ignore all juicy this stuff and just go for overall less profitable targets"? What tells the suicide ganker: "let's go after the 20k EHP Hulk even if actively piloted and not vs a Tengu"?
Since on paper it seems a nonsense, it means there are other factors not involving Concord, not involving cost, not involving insurance, not involving general suicide ganking mechanics and not involving tears.
These are the factors that should be equalized. The first one that comes to mind, is the fact that everybody except miners need a tiny effort to scan them down. This would be easily fixed by just keeping belts in 1.0 sec (small Trit for new players) and the rest moved in anomalies. I mean more frequent ones than grav sites of course.
Do you see this as an unfair nerf to suicide ganking?
I am pretty sure there are other factors for making miners the default targets and they all are a delta:
Suicide miner - Suicide everyone else = Delta
This Delta is the subtraction of all the unique factors and mechanics covering miners vs everyone else. I.e. failfit or concord are not unique so subtracting them = 0 and therefore they don't contribute to Delta.
Once you find out Delta, then that's where the game balance would be looked at. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7474
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:17:00 -
[411] - Quote
EVE Roy Mustang wrote:really... Yes, really. It can give up some yield for more tank or vice versa. At no point does it need to (or, indeed, can it) give up all of one to get more of the other.
Quote:post the build that gets max defense and max yield at the same time tippia But that wasn't what he was saying, now was it?
Quote:Im calling you on that BS Good thing that I didn't say anything like that then.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
9
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:18:00 -
[412] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:So what's the factor that tells the suicide ganker: "let's ignore all juicy this stuff and just go for overall less profitable targets"? What tells the suicide ganker: "let's go after the 20k EHP Hulk even if actively piloted and not vs a Tengu"?
The factor = hulkageddon V, which is now over.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
980
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:18:00 -
[413] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Ok, so you're claiming that it's impossible to reasonably escape a suicide gank attempt without trying it yourself? Really?
I had my own mining operation and indeed still have 1 x 4 years old Hulk somewhere. I stopped once I realized mining was the equivalent of what in other MMOs are the "UP classes", those only played by alts for fun and similar, with no chance to compete.
Andoria Thara wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:So what's the factor that tells the suicide ganker: "let's ignore all juicy this stuff and just go for overall less profitable targets"? What tells the suicide ganker: "let's go after the 20k EHP Hulk even if actively piloted and not vs a Tengu"?
The factor = hulkageddon V, which is now over.
No, Hulkageddon is a byproduct of the factor, not the cause.
In fact you can easily go back and find pre-Hulkageddon ganks and even other initiatives (see Bat Country). You will NOT find Bat "Tengu" Country or other things, all and only against miners.
So there's a kickstart factor that all the other factors being equal, still pushes gankers to go after one target and not the other, even if both are failfit, both share the same Concord mechanics, both are not exactly awake at the keyboard and so on.
I found one easy factor: miners are easily found while all the others need to be scanned (unless they autopilot the pinata thru Uedama). I am sure there are others. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
980
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:25:00 -
[414] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
So 10m worth of ships to kill a hulk that drops an average of ~10m isk. 5 people spending at least 15m (GCC cooldown limits the rate of ganking) to maybe break even, or if they're very lucky (20m drop), make 2m each (compensating for a bad loot drop earlier, maybe).
Sounds really profitable.
You can't legitimately add in the GSF bounty, because that's a player run event, and not something that you can use for a balance argument.
I get from 2 to 3 intact amor plates and similar per wreck, some bad times just 1.
They are 15M a piece. As I told you, are you sure you really know everything about suicide ganking Hulks and Macks? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1989
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:27:00 -
[415] - Quote
EVE isn't a mining simulator.
Mining has risks, and those risks vary from sec zone to sec zone.
This is by design. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
980
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:27:00 -
[416] - Quote
Jeniam Retriat wrote:As to the rest of your points, there is a connecting theme with why miners aren't happy; it's still possible to suicide gank our ships and turn a profit, even if we're fitting them defensively. The insurance nerf didn't mean that players had to choose between not ganking and ganking in a Brutix at an ISK loss, it meant they had to choose between easily ganking in a Brutix at an ISK loss or ganking in a Catalyst with a couple of friends/alts and still breaking even or making a profit. Same with the CONCORD buff and same with the complaints/requests for tougher mining ships we have now. RubyPorto wrote:Anyway, the miners are using a Solid Gold Spatula to flip burgers at a McDonalds in South Central LA, and expressing surprise and anger when they get robbed. That's what the OP is doing, sure. The rest of us are asking why our profession is the only one that got handed the Solid Gold Spatula, and why we can't just get a high quality Stainless Steel Spatula that performs the same job just as well but isn't a magnet for muggers. To put it more clearly, why is it that Mining is the only profession whose best ship is an automatic target for for-profit ganking even outside of Hulkageddon? If an L4 mission runner moves into one of their high end ships like a Navy Raven, that ship isn't automatically a target for gankers just for being used; you have to fit it out in high end deadspace/faction/officer mods before it's a target (would that be a gold-plated spatula?). A mission runner doesn't get in a Rattlesnake and get told that that ship is too valuable to use in hisec, or that they have to drastically alter their way of playing to use it without getting killed, or that they should just use a Dominix because it's a lot cheaper and only a bit worse, and yet that's exactly what happens to miners when they move from Covetors to Hulks.
Finally I found someone who understands my points!
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Haulie Berry
128
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:30:00 -
[417] - Quote
EVE Roy Mustang wrote:Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Gameplay isnt fine, Hulks have to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. No, they don't. really... post the build that gets max defense and max yield at the same time tippia, Im calling you on that BS
Pretty sure you misunderstood what he meant by "No, they don't".
You don't "have" to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. You CHOOSE to.
EVERY ship has fitting tradeoffs, why should the hulk be any different? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
475
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:31:00 -
[418] - Quote
Hulls intended for combat have stronger tanks and are thus more difficult to gank in hisec, color me shocked eh |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
933
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:33:00 -
[419] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:EVE Roy Mustang wrote:Tippia wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Gameplay isnt fine, Hulks have to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. No, they don't. really... post the build that gets max defense and max yield at the same time tippia, Im calling you on that BS Pretty sure you misunderstood what he meant by "No, they don't". You don't "have" to give up all defensive ability to gain a little more yield. You CHOOSE to. EVERY ship has fitting tradeoffs, why should the hulk be any different? Because highsec... CONCORD makes highsec safe..
Why are gankers allowed here?! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7475
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Posted - 2012.05.29 15:33:00 -
[420] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Hulls intended for combat have stronger tanks and are thus more difficult to gank in hisec, color me shocked To be fair, Hulks have a stronger tank than some HACsGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
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